Split from the Gallery thread

[Denise Wall]

I was bummed to see that Maggie cross-posted Mike's most recent message back to Cathy's list. A couple of other people there made comments about certain members of this group and this group as a whole

Maybe this could be a good thing. Perhaps some of them will come here to find out just how horrible we all are and find some sense in what is said here instead of only being exposed to the AKC mantra.

[Katelynn & Gang]

After going to their BBC list, which I have been a member of for a long time but never read or posted on, I am speechless. It servers as great example of conformation and its die hard followers.

 

Thank you Cathy so much for letting Maggie take her personal feelings and problems back to your own list in hopes of someone to stroke her hurt ego. She and your members shed so much light, to so many, on just how things really are on that side of this split breed.

 

Maggie may have been told the truth about what she didn't want to hear on this Boards or have her ego stroked just the way she likes but at least she wasn't personally attacked with foul words to her face, unlike your members who so willing did to unknowing unexpected members of this Board.

 

Katelynn

[Howdyjabo]

Awhh-- cross post their nastiness here.I'd like to hear what they are saying about me.I can handle it-- probably better than they could handle it here

 

This is why I am not an advocate of being extra sweet to the other side in hopes of converting them -- I want to force them to quit sitting on the fence. If that knocks them over to the other side-- well chances are we couldn't influence them anyhow.

 

Its the fence sitters that are the problem-- either commit to producing working dogs or commit to breeding "other" dogs-- A breeder can't do both and do justice to either.

Thats why I want a name change on their part-- I want them to commit to what they are doing.

 

And heres how you can know wether or not you can call your dog a Border Collie

-- One-- its a very good stockdog

- two--- you are not breeding it if it isn't.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Knowing that list, I wouldn't want to see any example of their typical nastiness, cross posted from there. We DO have underage members, remember. I signed off that list about a year ago because it was SO gratuitously vulgar.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by KillerH:

And heres how you can know wether or not you can call your dog a Border Collie

-- One-- its a very good stockdog

- two--- you are not breeding it if it isn't.

Thanks for clearing it up.

[Sue R]

Thanks, Denise. I was tongue-in-cheek but I always appreciate your knowledgeable and clear posts. Now, if I could only train and handle my dog as well as you do...

[Katelynn & Gang]

When we say Barbie Collie, even the Barbie owners know what we are talking about. It is for the breeders, not the dogs or the buyers who didn't know any better.

 

Hey, they even like to use it themselves when talking about how us "mean ole' herding people" were going to leave them with all "Barbies" when we wanted the American Kennel Club to shut their books.

[Guest Blackandwhite]

I have been following this thread with great interest. The true working Border Collie is in the UK and is registered with the International Sheepdog Society. Most of the ABC dogs are the UK's cast offs with a few bitches sired by trials dogs. The working Border Collie is British not American and does not need the ABC to protect it.

 

Some of the first breed show dogs were straight off the UK farms and these feature in the pedigrees of many of todays UK show dogs. Many retain the working drive and work sheep and other livestock. Shepherds way back in the 1930's had classes at sheepdog trials for the best looking dogs. Even then looks are considered in the breeding in addition to the working ability.

George

[Katelynn & Gang]

They had classes back in the 1930's for the best looking dogs at sheepdog trials to encourage the correct feed and grooming care.

 

Not to set a breed standard for the breeds looks that would take the important place of its ability to work years later, as it has today in the Kennel Clubs.

[Guest Blackandwhite]

Sorry Kate and Dice etc you got it all wrong. The Border Collie was bred to type from the early days, four different types developed. The Northumbrian which was rough coated, Wiston Cap type semi rough with large flash white collar, The Nap Type which is smooth coated many exported to the USA and last the Herdman's Tommy Type another rough coat. The working stock in the UK today incorporated all these types. So many of your ABC dogs look like a Nap type crossed with the local mongrel. The show type classes at trials were nothing to do with feed, many farmers then an now, in the UK, take pride in breeding good working dogs that conform to type in appearance. Another feature of trials was the shepherds crooks. Trials were a great event in the past and trialers wore their best suits when competing and naturally wanted their dogs to appear good as well. Non of todays dressing down.

George

Yorkshire Farmer

UK

[ccnnc]

For what it's worth, a grip is an automatic disqualification in any USBCHA sanctioned sheep trial and in any of the junior classes.

 

Just the facts....

 

Colin

[Denise Wall]

George,

 

If you don't mind, please describe for us your farm (types of stock), the things you use your dogs for, and their individual working styles.

 

It's always educatonal to compare similarities and differences in the various situations.

 

Thanks in advance,

[AK dog doc]

The dogs do not feel demeaned by the term "Barbie" and they do not feel elevated by the term "Stockdog". It's the owners who take exception to this, in some cases at least. (BTW, I would not call my own BC a stockdog, despite his ABCA lines - but I WOULD call the BF's BC a stockdog, because she is.) If you are feeling demeaned by this term, I think it's because you have some judgement about how it is meant - but I'm not sure that you're right about that judgement.

 

I do not (and never did) feel insulted by the references to my dearly loved (and now deceased) BC Buddy as a "Borderline collie" - his breeding was all BC, but MAN was he from the shallow end of the gene pool, BC-wise. Still a fabulous dog, and I could not have loved him more. I still miss him deeply. But referring to him as "Borderline" was meant as a descriptor, not an insult, and I personally think that the term "Barbie" is typically used the same way here. Many people have explicitly stated as much. You can take them at their words, or you can call them liars. I'm sure this is just a wrong impression I'm getting, but it seems you WANT to be insulted by this, that you are EAGER to read insult and denigration into this term. I could as easily say "You want to be insulted, you LIKE it, it makes you feel special to be insulted" - but I am not you, I don't live in your head, and how on EARTH should I claim to know what you think or how you feel? That would be completely irrational, and very presumptuous of me, as well.

 

We're passionate about our dogs. We know you're passionate about yours. We're NOT saying "our" dogs are better than "your" dogs. We're saying our dogs are DIFFERENT than your dogs - just as I was saying that Buddy (the Borderline) was different from Pepper and Finn, despite the similar backgrounds on paper. This is no insult to Buddy. It does him more honor and a far greater kindness to recognize what he IS (or was) than to pretend he was something he was not.

 

I've said this before, but I'll say it agian - if you really love something - and I mean REALLY love it, not just pretend to love it, or love the IDEA of it - you must recognize it for what it truly is. Otherwise you're not loving the actual dog, you're loving some cardboard cutout version of the dog in your mind; some stand-in you have developed to act as a symbol of your dog, and not the real dog. So I would have done Buddy no favors by saying he was of the same ilk as Pepper or Finn (who is BC to the bone, but doesn't gel into what I would refer to as a "stockdog", myself).

 

If someone came to me and said, "Buddy is ugly, Buddy is stupid, Buddy is a worthless animal and deserves to be shot, he should have been drowned at birth" - then, yeah, I'd have been angry. But if someone called him a Borderline collie, I'd have agreed with them. It made a convenient shorthand to describe what was different about him compared to the other BCs. Again - I ADORED Buddy, I LOVED what he was, and delighted in what was different about him. He was unique and special and his like will, unfortunately, never come my way again. But I did not claim he would work stock, and I did him the great good favor of never asking it of him. It would have been just awful for him, toture and abuse, to be asked to do something so outside his range and temperament as a dog.

 

So it seems to me you have the choice of taking people at their words and understanding that they are NOT insulting your dog if they use the term "Barbie", but are only describing the breeding practices which produced him - or you can hug your hurt feelings and sense of righteous injustice and feelings of ill-use to yourself and continue on in your umberage. I'll admit that, as uncomfortable as it might be to feel insulted and ill-used, it's more comfortable to cling to that than to be willing to set that aside and look at this another way. But maybe you have the courage and the inner fairness to perhaps admit just the possibility that maybe we DO mean what we say, that we are NOT all liars, and that we DON'T intend that term as an insult, but as a descriptor. Which will it be?

[Miztiki]

Why are you here? Are you just trolling or what?

[Howdyjabo]

I'm sorry George I'm missing something.

 

I have seen pictures of all the dogs in the Key dogs book and I am assuming you are useing the same as your example.

 

How do those dogs even resemble the "show type" dogs being bred over here?

I do believe that the goals for the original show type classes HAD to be alot different than todays.

 

And yes ABCA(ABC isn't very active any more) does need to protect the working Border Collie over here-- we use them too thanks to your ancestors. I would hate to have to go back to the days of getting dogs shipped in sight unseen again. Especially if all we got were cast offs the first time

 

I hope not all the judges we get over here are toadying liars or completely ignorant-- according to several of them I have talked to-- we have something useful to keep working with .

 

I think you have a chip on your shoulder about something so maybe this will help you let it fall.

I don't think we ever could have accomplished on our own what your ancestors did with this breed--

Your areas situation at the time was ideal for the breeds focused development that we couldn't have replicated over here.

We owe our dogs exhistance to your areas ancestors--those that came over here with dogs or sent dogs.

 

 

Karen

Farmer

USA

[Guest Blackandwhite]

Denise

My dogs work Swaledale and Swaledale sheep in the Yorkshire Dales plus we have mixed cattle that are also up over 1000 feet high on the hills in the summer months. My neighbour lost his stock due to foot and mouth a few years ago we were very lucky.

George

[Denise Wall]

Denise

My dogs work Swaledale and Swaledale sheep in the Yorkshire Dales plus we have mixed cattle that are also up over 1000 feet high on the hills in the summer months.

Thanks. Can you tell us more about the types of jobs you use them for and their working styles?

[Guest Blackandwhite]

Karen

I understand that the American Show Border Collie comes from Australian lines, correct? Well the Australian dogs go back to ISDS dogs that were exported to Australia from the UK mainly in the period 1920's to 1955. They all go back to the first ISDS dogs in the UK. Selective breeding in Australia has developed the present shape and coat just the same as your smooth coated nap types in the USA.

George

[Howdyjabo]

George-- have you seen the Collies over here that the other breeders claim to still have herding abilities and what they base those herding abilities on? I can't help but think your ancestors would be rolling in their graves.

 

And yes I think the right breeder could be found that could breed for "conformation" looks and work and find a few dogs that met both.

But why would they bother??? I don't think your ancestors were that focused on having it ALL - and I think theres a good reason for it.

[Gary M]

"Originally posted by KillerH:

And heres how you can know wether or not you can call your dog a Border Collie

-- One-- its a very good stockdog

- two--- you are not breeding it if it isn't."

 

I like that (for what its worth). One of the best short descriptions I have read or heard.

(And absolutely no sarcasm intended.. honest)

[Howdyjabo]

"I understand that the American Show Border Collie comes from Australian lines, correct? Well the Australian dogs go back to ISDS dogs that were exported to Australia from the UK mainly in the period 1920's to 1955. They all go back to the first ISDS dogs in the UK. Selective breeding in Australia has developed the present shape and coat just the same as your smooth coated nap types in the USA.

George"

 

 

I do have a fondness for smooth coated-- but I still think they are in the minority over here.

 

It doesn't bother you at all looking at your Border Collies-- and then looking at the Aussie Border Collie?

Seems like they didn't value much of the breed except the coloration-- that does bother me.

[Howdyjabo]

Sorry Eileen-- I saw some posts that I made got dumped

I just couldn;t resist. I'll be better from now on.

[Eileen Stein]

Gee, apparently the BCC list is every bit as nasty as reported, and has decided to export some of its nastiness to us. I have had to delete a number of posts because of this. Apologies to those whose responding posts were deleted as well. Wildair and Blackandwhite, any further flaming in your posts and you will be unsubscribed from the Boards.

 

>

 

Perhaps you're not aware that the ISDS and the ABCA have a reciprocal registration agreement. Many of our ABCA dogs are registered with the ISDS and all offspring of ABC-registered dogs are eligible for ISDS registration. In the joint statement which announced this a few years ago, it was said: "This position has been reached for the benefit of owners, breeders and dogs alike. The two organizations have the same objective of supporting the Border Collie being a working sheepdog." So apparently the ISDS accepts that ABC-registered dogs are "true working Border Collies."

 

>

 

The different "types" you describe, presumably based on Sheila Grew's breakdown in Key Dogs, looked different precisely because they were bred for work, not to look a certain way. The "types" are Grew's attempt to classify the different appearances that evolved in breeding for work. As Grew herself said:

 

The Working Collie was bred for one purpose only in those days - for work. . . . It is not surprising that there are several different types of present day working Border Collies with such a mixed ancestry in their background, and that in a litter of pure-bred puppies not one may be alike. Even the introduction of the International Sheep Dog Society's Stud Books, which has registered dogs from 1908 onwards has not standardized the working Border Collie either in appearance or temperament.

 

>

 

Here is what Tim Longton had to say about that in The Sheep Dog: Its Work and Training, published in 1976:

 

[A]ny attempts to hold show classes for the breed are to be deplored, unless they are linked to working abilities. Sometimes, at the end of a trial, prizes are given for the best-looking dog, which must either have run in the trial or belong to a member of the local sheep dog association. This is just to add interest to a sociable afternoon, and to encourage youngsters to take care with the grooming of their charges. It has no connection whatever with current attempts to establish show standards for the Border collie in which height, coat, colour, set of ears and eye colour would be laid down. Such a move would do nothing but harm to the working collie. . . .

 

Enough has been written in this book to show that the best dogs have been of all colours, coats and sizes. There should be only one standard for the Border collie -- work.

 

I guess I'm more inclined to credit Tim Longton than the anonymous George.

[bcnewe2]

Quote<< I was bummed to see that Maggie cross-posted Mike's most recent message back to Cathy's list. A couple of other people there made comments about certain members of this group and this group as a whole ... that made Mike's comments seem rather mild in comparison. >>End Quote

 

OK....so where is this other list???

TIA

Kristen

[mike goracke]

Eileen,

Your last post said all that needed saying...You're my HERO!