What should I do???

[Kian's Mom]

I had purchased an ABCA BC female in Feb of 2012 with the intention of breeding her later ( Please don't start in on me with this ) that is not the real issue. What my problem is, I had researched on the genetic dieses before I made my choice. In an email I was assured that the parent's do not carry CEA as the sire was tested and the bitch was cleared by parentage. The contract only states that must be CEA normal or carrier and that buyer will not breed a carrier to carrier. I have been requesting for over a year to get the paperwork stating that the parents are clear. No paperwork and breeder got very testy because I kept asking. I gave up and sent in the blood work for testing myself. TNS and CL came back normal but the CEA/CH came back carrier. Contacted breeder and she was trying to put it off on the grandsire ( who is normal ). Then said test results on one of them were wrong. When she got the money would retest her dogs. My question is other that not buying another dog from her do I have any recourse. Thanks for any advice you can give me.

[Debbie Meier]

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if the contract guaranteed the pup to be either normal or carrier and your dog tests to be a carrier then I don't see where the seller was in default of the contract.

 

If I am understanding correctly and the contract states Normal or Carrier, right there you know that one of the parents is a carrier and one is normal, atleast that would be the conclusion I would come to. If both parents were Normal then pups should be normal.

 

 

[gcv-border]

The contract only states that must be CEA normal or carrier and that buyer will not breed a carrier to carrier. I have been requesting for over a year to get the paperwork stating that the parents are clear.

 

I am confused by the first sentence above. Do you mean to say that the pup you purchased would be normal or a carrier? (as per the contract) If so, I agree with Debbie that the contract has been fulfilled. (Note: I am not a lawyer.) Unfortunately, you relied only on verbal representation from the seller. If the fact that your purchased pup be CEA normal was important to you (for future breeding purposes), that should have been written into the contract.

 

Jovi

[Kian's Mom]

Before I purchased her I had an email that both parents were clear of CEA. Her exact words are " my dogs do not carry CEA, I had tucker ( the sire) and other female tested, Sadie ( the bitch) is negative due to both of her parents being normal." She has had other breeding dogs in the past. Assuming where the part in the contract come from. But when I asked for a copy of paper work clearing the dogs, she never would get them to me. Hence the reason for me testing my dog and finding out she is a carrier. The contract states that the buyer agrees that if the male or female is allowed to produce/sire puppies, the bc and the dog it is bred with MUST be OFA Certified also must be CEA normal or carrier. Before the breeding occurs. Buyer will not breed carrier to carrier.

My bad was assuming this meant that the male I bred her to had to be either normal or carrier. Since if both of her dogs were normal then mine could not be a carrier.

[ObeytheBC]

So I am assuming that your contract does not actually state or make a guarantee that your pup would be genetically CEA clear. My guess would be without a statement of that effect, there is no recourse.

 

But, not to stir the pot or anything, is there a reason that you are angered by your dog being a CEA carrier? That just means that if/when you breed, you has to find a clear dog to use as the stud. I know that there is some debate with CEA for the fact that this can randomly (or not so random I would guess) mutate back into a gene line. I do not personally know of anyone who had that mutate back, but this is why testing is available.

 

I think that I would focus on the dog at hand and the future. There are plenty of clear dogs out there available and then, if you are looking to keep a pup out of her, you can just test the entire litter if you absolutely do not want to have a CEA carrier prior to choosing your pup. That is if you feel that being CEA clear is your most important selection tool.

 

I have a CEA carrier male - it just means that should he ever be bred, I would make sure that anyone desiring to use him as a stud would have to have cleared the female. Now, once again, not trying to stir up the to breed or not to breed pot or the what we should choose for when we select breeding animals pot.

 

Or, you could always talk to the breeder about how unhappy you are with your puppy and seeing if you can return it. You can't change your dog's CEA status after all.

[Liz P]

I am not getting it either. There is nothing wrong with your dog. Why do you want "recourse"?

[Kian's Mom]

I guess after all the reading up on it trying to be a responsible breeder in the future I feel I bought a puppy under false representation. I thought I was getting a pup that was normal for CEA an not a carrier. Yes this just means I will have to be more selective of the male I use. There are some very good dogs out there that are carriers. Guess I shouldn't let it bother me as there are a lot of breeders out there who don't even test. As my girl is almost 16 months there is no way I would give her back. She is basically with me 24/7. She even goes to work with me. How could I give up my child just because she wasn't perfect. So that is not even an option. Just the thought of being lied to.

Thanks for the input.

[Liz P]

CEA is a simple recessive, and even better, it's easy to test for and avoid producing. If you are worried about producing healthy puppies, your biggest concern is knowing your dog's pedigree inside and out. Diseases that are not easy to avoid producing including hip dysplasia, adult onset hearing loss, epilepsy and OCD.

 

You can hip score your bitch, but even more important than that information is knowing the hip scores of her littermates, aunts, uncles, etc. Even if she is an excellent, she can produce dysplastic pups. There is no genetic test for adult onset hearing loss. Do you know if it runs in her lines? Does she have any first degree relatives with epilepsy? If you think not, I suggest you do some serious research to make sure (it's more common in the breed than most believe).

 

No pedigree is clean. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool. Knowing what lurks in a pedigree is your best bet at avoiding health problems.

 

This isn't to mention knowing the working ability/style and sort of temperament that tends to run in her lines.

 

Knowing your own bitch isn't enough.

[Kian's Mom]

Thanks Liz P,

Thought I was doing the right thing, guess I just didn't go far enough. Glad I didn't go on just her word. With my luck would of bred her to a carrier, thinking she was normal. Her hips will be done in either Dec or Jan as she will be 2 Dec 1.She is my first BC, have raised other breeds , but never checked out things like I have with the BCs. My dad always taught me that you are only as good as your word. Have always been honest even if it wasn't what someone wanted to hear.

Have a good day.

[bcnewe2]

I know you said not to bring it up but, she is young, she is your first, why oh why do you feel she is of the caliber that should be bred at all or why do you feel you have enough experience with border collies to be ready to take on breeding her? These boardes would be lax if someone doesn't bring it up. Can you at least give us your background and hers?

Sorry to be the party pooper.

[Debbie Meier]

Kian's Mom, could you share what you feel is included on your list of "responsible border collie breeder"?

 

Also, what do you feel sets the border collie apart from any other breed of working dog along with what are your plans as to how you will identify whether or not a breeding prospect has those traits and the likelihood of them passing those traits on.

 

These are questions that we ask ourselves all the time and expect anyone that has the aspirations of being a good breeder to be able to answer and if they can not we highly advise them to seek the answers before they breed, it is part of the improve and preserve portion of responsible breeding, IMO.

[Kian's Mom]

Ok here goes. I don't always have the right way to say things and if this offends anyone that is not my intent. At one time you all started out for the first time with your first bc , your first litter and so on. Have to start somewhere. A lot of what I have read on the board makes me feel that if you are not getting a bc to use as a herding dog you shouldn't get one. Well my girl is ABCA and AKC. The reason I got her is because I fell in love with the BC breed for their intelligence, trainability, speed, willingness to please, temperament not the fact that they were and are used as herding dogs. Yes I live in the country and I also have Quarter Horses. Will I ever let her heard them, No. I don't want cattle, sheep or goats. Just because she is AKC doesn't mean I'm going to show conformation either, which I'm not. I got her to show agility. I did do research before I ever got her as far as the genetic diseases, what they were like to live with temperament and so on which was all new to me. That is why I bought from a breeder who said they were tested normal for CEA/CH, TNS, and CL. and I had checked with her references. Most of whom never did anything with their dogs. My bad for believing her. I did have mine tested and found out she is a carrier of CEA. So now have to be careful of the male I choose. If I wasn't trying to be responsible wouldn't care it if she was tested or not, or what the results were like so many out there. Wasn't going to breed her until possibly next fall when she would be almost 3 and after I have her hips tested. Also would like to get a couple of agility titles with her. As far as blood lines I don't know shit about them to be honest. She does have Astra Taz as a grandfather. Some may like him some may not. Everyone has their opinion of what they like and don't like. From what I read on him, I liked him. Will I make mistakes along the way, yes as I'm not perfect and I don't know it all. Those of you that are willing to help me along my way fine. Would appreciate the help. Those that want to criticize because I chose a bc that I'm using for something other than herding don't need it. I have been an assistant 4-h dog club leader for 16 years doing agility and obedience , have been riding and showing horses for 50 years, I have achieved a couple of agility titles with a cocker spaniel that I lost at age 13. My dogs do not live in a kennel. They are a part of my family and live with me in the house. Will I breed her twice a year no, I will not be a puppy mill. Won't do that to my dog. Never have never will. I had maybe 3 litters of puppies in 20 years when I had my cockers. The BC is such an amazing breed and so versatile. Every breed of dog or horse was originally breed with a specific task in mind but just because they were bred for one thing doesn't mean that they can't excel an be used in other things also. My dog is a working dog just not working at herding.

Hope everyone has a good night.

[Smalahundur]

I hope you have a good flame retardant suit. I advise you to put it on right now...

[rushdoggie]

[mtnfrank]

Reading the "read this first" might be a good idea...

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showannouncement=1&f=9

[Gloria Atwater]

Sorry your breeder was untruthful in the CEA status of your girl's parents. It is unfortnate, but unless you bought her with a guarantee of CEA normal, then there is nothing you can do, except avoid that breeder henceforth.

 

As for breeding a working dog that doesn't work ... I'm a long distance swimmer, I just don't swim. I second the recommendation to read the "Read This First" link, above.

~ Gloria

[ObeytheBC]

The reason I got her is because I fell in love with the BC breed for their intelligence, trainability, speed, willingness to please, temperament not the fact that they were and are used as herding dogs.

 

The BC is such an amazing breed and so versatile. Every breed of dog or horse was originally breed with a specific task in mind but just because they were bred for one thing doesn't mean that they can't excel an be used in other things also. My dog is a working dog just not working at herding.

 

Before I duck, cover, and peak behind the sofa to watch and see what gets written about that, I want to point out one very basic thing that is the core of why everyone here is so adament about breeding for herding ability.

 

Everything you love about the breed, the intelligence, speed, trainability, willingness, the want to please, the want to work, the general WANT TO all exists BECAUSE of what it was bred to do - which is to herd, to be able to go a mile away from the handler and think on its own to bring in the livestock, to want to work as a partner but ability to also think on its own. Every single one of those so loved charactersistics is because it was bred to be a herding dog.

 

If you only breed for size, or speed, or anything but those characteristics for herding, you loose what makes a border collie a border collie. The very thing that makes them so adept, so versitile, all originates from what makes them the most amazing herding dog.

 

That is all I really want to point out, but brace yourself for what may come next.

[JenS]

 

If the breeder misrepresented the CEA status of the parent dogs, can't help but wonder what else she may have misrepresented about the background of her dogs.

[workindogs]

Uhmmmm.....it sounds like you were dealing with a really classy breeder, willing to lie and apparently not able to test her dogs. Did she ever prove her dog's working ability on livestock? I would guess not.

 

So, you've not had any prior experience with border collies, bought a pup from a less than truthful or cooperative (or lesser quality) breeder, your pup's breeder likely hasn't proven breeding stock to any decent standard on livestock, you don't appreciate or respect that border collies should be proven on livestock before breeding, you don't really understand border collie pedigrees ("don't know shit about bloodlines") or have any respect for the traits or genetic diseases embedded in said pedigrees, you don't have any sense of what qualities or pedigrees pair best to produce excellent and healthy working (livestock) border collies....you apparently haven't read or don't respect with "Read this First" section of these Boards.

 

I have to say that CEA DNA status of your pup should be the least of your concerns. These aren't cocker spaniels....cockers have already been ruined by well intended kennel club fancy.

 

You've got the whole thing backwards and are not doing the border collies any favors by planning to breed your young, poorly bred, unproven bitch.

 

Good luck figuring it out.....I hope you do figure it out before you produce any puppies.

[geonni banner]

The BC is such an amazing breed and so versatile. Every breed of dog or horse was originally breed with a specific task in mind but just because they were bred for one thing doesn't mean that they can't excel an be used in other things also. My dog is a working dog just not working at herding.

I don't know how closely you have read these boards, but something made you come here to ask your question. So you must see that the Border Collie Boards is composed of a group of folks many of which really understand the breed, and what makes it so special. They are people with decades in this breed. No one says you have to do stock work with your Border Collie, though most of them will tell you that to truly understand what makes a Border Collie the best stock dog on the planet, you might need to at least try, study and listen to those who do.

 

I have never seen anyone here criticize an owner for doing agility only (or any other sport)with their Border Collie. What the knowledgeable people object to is breeding the Border Collie for these things. I support this stance, and my Border Collie has never been near a sheep or cow in her life. No one here has ever made me feel like a second class citizen for owning a Border Collie that is simply a companion dog.

 

But try to understand; the people that, over the years, created and perfected the marvelous dog that we know today were interested in one thing and one thing only - is the dog superlative on stock? This is what created the complex package of skills, instincts, drive, biddability and intelligence that exemplifies the Border Collie. There is no "chicken or egg" ambiguity here. It's crystal clear. The sheepdog came before the Border Collie. If you want that package you must go to the well - go to the canny stock worker and his working dogs. Not "working lines", not "down from" herding champions or "down from" proven farm/ranch dogs, but from dogs that can actually "walk the walk."

 

One doesn't learn to assess and/or perpetuate those qualities with their first dog, or their second, or many more. It takes years of study, observation, and years of toil "in the trenches."

 

I applaud your interest in selecting a puppy bred from dogs free of inherited physical defects. This is right thinking. But it is only the beginning. Regardless of what you plan to spend your time doing with your dog, I believe you will find it ultimately more satisfying to do it with a dog bred by someone who works with, trains and, yes, breeds top-notch stock dogs. There will be much less disappointment for you with litters - even a scant few litters - bred by you without the benefit of a thorough knowledge of what makes these dogs what they are - stockdogs. You might get lucky and produce dogs that are beautiful, intelligent and healthy. (You might not...) but if you want a great Border Collie, you will need to go to the well.

[mum24dog]

Everything you love about the breed, the intelligence, speed, trainability, willingness, the want to please, the want to work, the general WANT TO all exists BECAUSE of what it was bred to do - which is to herd, to be able to go a mile away from the handler and think on its own to bring in the livestock, to want to work as a partner but ability to also think on its own. Every single one of those so loved charactersistics is because it was bred to be a herding dog.

 

This is true, but that is not to say that some of them can't be diverted along another path and tweaked for a different purpose. No breed is set in stone for eternity. Clearly those offshoot dogs would then become something else and whether they should be given another name to distinguish them from the working type or whether people just need to understand the difference rather depends on where you live. In the UK we get along with the second type of distinction, in the US I get the impression that a different name would get the message across better because fewer people are familiar with the breed and what is does.

 

But planning to breed from an unproven dog in any activity is putting the cart before the horse. This pup hasn't even set foot in the ring yet. Breeding shouldn't be the reason for getting a dog, especially the first of a breed for the buyer. Work it first, get experience with more of the breed, then and only then, if you (generic you- not you personally) really really must and your dog is unique in some way, start considering whether it should be bred from. That should apply whatever the interest.

 

It doesn't even sound as if the OP is ambitious as regards agility. "Putting a couple of titles" on a dog isn't that hard is it?

How would that prove a dog's ability and justify breeding from it?

 

I do wonder about what the OP thinks is worthy in terms of a BC as she gave an Astra dog in her pup's pedigree as an example. I think more homework into and practical experience of the breed is needed, and if she sees through the "My dogs can do it all" spiel she will find a high volume breeder of fancy colours largely aimed at the sport/pet community,

[bcnewe2]

At one time you all started out for the first time with your first bc , your first litter and so on. Have to start somewhere. A lot of what I have read on the board makes me feel that if you are not getting a bc to use as a herding dog you shouldn't get one. Well my girl is ABCA and AKC.

Just because she is AKC doesn't mean I'm going to show conformation either, which I'm not. I got her to show agility. I did do research before I ever got her as far as the genetic diseases, what they were like to live with temperament and so on which was all new to me. That is why I bought from a breeder who said they were tested normal for CEA/CH, TNS, and CL. and I had checked with her references. Most of whom never did anything with their dogs.

since I started it I will add that yes we all started out at one time. It's a steep long learning curve. I have been working with border collies for 15 years. I haven't bred one litter. I would like to one day have dogs I feel are worthy of breeding, doesn't mean I will breed them. Means I know the breed, it's good traits and bad. I won't add anything to the gene pool that I know won't better the breed. I would never have known anything about what I'm writing for years after I started in this breed. I don't think you do either.

That being said, I have no issues with you not working your dogs on stock. But without stock work you won't know what you are breeding so, I hope from this thread you will rethink your breeding program, Especially since you have not learned how bad the akc is for our breed or any breed for that matter. If you come on here with the limited knowledge you have, you can expect to learn, learn and learn some more. No one will pounce on you for your lack of knowledge or not working your dog. But we (the collective we) will pounce on you for your breeding plans with the limited knowledge you have.

 

the underlined statement above says tons. You are not going to work your dog on stock, which is absolutely ok, and most of her lines have had nothing done with them. How could you possibly know what you have in your dog except a loving family member whom you should cherish, enjoy and learn from. But...please don't breed her.

[mum24dog]

At one time you all started out for the first time with your first bc , your first litter and so on. Have to start somewhere.

 

First BC yes, first litter no. I have nothing to add to the breed and am far from alone in that on here.

 

I'd be surprised if any of the regulars on here got their first BC intending to breed from it.

 

My dog is a working dog just not working at herding.

 

We do agility - our BC is in the top grade and regularly makes championship finals along with International medal winners. He appears to be working bred but I don't know if he would ever have been any good at the job. He isn't a working dog, he's a dog that runs and jumps for fun, that's all.

[Liz P]

As far as blood lines I don't know shit about them to be honest.

 

Then you shouldn't be breeding, regardless of anything else. See the longer reply I wrote earlier in this thread.

 

I don't care what breed you are into, whether it's lap dogs, hunting dogs, sled dogs or sheep dogs. If you don't understand the bloodlines within the breed inside and out, you are taking a major gamble each time you produce a litter. It would be like a painter trying to produce a masterpiece without knowing how the colors mix. He might be lucky and end up with something lovely, but more likely his painting will look like diarrhea smeared on canvas.

[Eileen Stein]

It would be possible, though by no means a certainty, for you to win a lawsuit against the breeder, depending on a number of different factors. But the effort and expense of doing so would almost certainly far exceed the amount of damages you could prove or collect, so I agree with the general consensus that as a practical matter, you have no remedy.

 

As for the breeding issue, there is a difference between the welfare of an individual dog and the welfare of the breed. It's a difference many people simply don't see, which is why people often claim to be good breeders because they keep their dog in the house, don't breed on every cycle, etc. Maybe if you think about this distinction, you'll see that to be a good breeder you have to think about more than the welfare of the individual dog. You have to know -- really KNOW -- what it took to produce the breed, because the traits that make the border collie what it is are not capable of being "fixed" the way so many appearance traits have been fixed so that they always breed true. They are a complex, variable mixture. The more people there are who are breeding border collies without knowing or caring about all these variables and what makes the total package, the worse for the future of the breed as a whole. That's why people care enough to tell newbies what they don't want to hear, and are only rarely willing to reflect on.

 

According to the facts you've told us, what the breeder you bought from did was disreputable and wrong. But to me, there are two sad stories in this thread, not just one.