What should I do???

[WildFlower]

I hope that the OP reads all the very well written - direct but overall polite - responses.

 

I only would like to add that reading "The Dog Wars: How the Border Collie Battled the American Kennel Club" by Donald McCaig would perhaps be in order.

[Debbie Meier]

A lot of what I have read on the board makes me feel that if you are not getting a bc to use as a herding dog you shouldn't get one.

 

 

I don't think you have come to the correct conclusion, I don't know of anyone that would say that you need to have herding use in mind to buy a border collie, now many of us do feel that you should have herding use in mind when you are thinking about breeding your border collie.

 

And I will say that I personally become frustrated when people claim that their non-proven, non-working, border collie is a working dog, especially when they have no second thoughts marketing the dogs offspring as such due to having the misconception that owning a registered border collie automatically gives that dog and it's offspring the birth right of being a serviceable stockdog.

 

Border Collies are not horses, even if a horse that was bred to be a cow horse wasn't exceptionally cowy, the horse can be trained and still be useful on a cattle operation. Horses are not asked to be independent thinkers working on their own with little to no direction from a human, they require a human pilot. A well bred border collie with a lot of talent and a understanding of the job does not need a human pilot, they just need a supervisor to oversee that they are staying on task. You can't train a dog with poor natural instincts and abilities in any fashion that will allow the dog to be even as remotely useful as the dog would be if the breeder has maintained a high level of selection pressure based on working ability.

 

If you insist on wanting to breed your bitch and want to honestly be able to tell your puppy buyers that you did all the research and understand border collies, spend the next year learning about stock work and what makes the breed special based on the job they were developed to do.

[SS Cressa]

I don't remember where i heard it. I remember being told that you should always DNA your breeding stock every other generation to make sure your lines are free. Since your situation can happen by luck of the genes.

 

So both of my dog's parent are clear of CEA, and cl. If I bred him and kept a pup. While my dog is free from being a carrier due to his parents being clear. I would still need to check his pup to verified my lines are still clean. (**I am not saying I am breeding my boy just using him as an example!)

The people that I know who breeds. Check their dogs regardless of their parents status. Since throwback can always happen.

[Kian's Mom]

The reason I have her registered AKC is so I can show agility and nothing else. I want to see what she can accomplish before I would breed her , that is why the statement on getting at least a couple of titles with her. If she doesn't do that then no I would not breed her. The agility people can tell you this is not always an easy thing to get. Being only ABCA I cannot show agility. As an independent thinker and not needing a pilot yes I agree but I have seen horses run the barrel pattern with no one on them, an a really good cutting horse you are just a passenger giving very little direction as with a really good BC.

AS for the blood lines sure they are the same in no matter you are talking about, horses, dogs, cows there are certain traits that each person likes or dislikes. Just because you have say 2 parents that are fantastic that doesn't mean all the offspring will be as good. Some will be better, some the same and some not even close.

Thank you Eileen, for answering what the original post was really about. Yes I still have a lot to learn an I'm working on it. Yes I would also like to go to some herding trials but have not been able to find any close.

[mum24dog]

I want to see what she can accomplish before I would breed her , that is why the statement on getting at least a couple of titles with her. If she doesn't do that then no I would not breed her. The agility people can tell you this is not always an easy thing to get.

 

But you can get titles by only having to Q rather than beat other dogs, right? A moderately able but reliable dog should be able to do it if they go to enough trials - or that's the impression I get.

 

I'm just wondering why you think that a dog with only a couple of titles will have proved itself worthy of being bred.

 

 

Being only ABCA I cannot show agility

 

That's not true, is it? There are plenty of people who do agility without having AKC registered dogs.

Surely that only applies to AKC trials rather than the other options there are?

 

BTW it may be a language thing but I can't think of agility as "showing" - it's doing.

[Kian's Mom]

SS Cressa,

What I was upset about is I was told her parents were clear. After repeatedly asking for documentation an not getting it, figured something was up so I had her tested myself. And found out she was a carrier. Guess I learned that if I ever get another one get documentation before I buy it. Thought I was doing right of getting one that was tested. Live an learn.

[Laurae]

Never mind.

[Kian's Mom]

Mum24dog,

Guess I should rephrase that. There are more AKC shows around me. Yes they can show with USDAA and NADAC.AS for the language that is probably just me. I think of anything that you are presenting for judging as showing.

[Debbie Meier]

Kian's Mom, if you share where you are located we all could see about helping you find someone in your area that can introduce you to the working side of the breed. There are many pitfalls when it comes to finding people that can give you a good foundation of knowledge and understanding when it comes to how the dogs are expected to handle livestock and what minimum standards should be.

[Beach BCs]

The reason I have her registered AKC is so I can show agility and nothing else. Being only ABCA I cannot show agility.

Yes they can show with USDAA and NADAC.

If the bitch was spayed she could be ILP'd or PAL'd with the AKC and would be able to compete in agility. But I don't believe you can play AKC agility under those designations with an intact dog.

 

I play agility with my male. He's pretty good. Intense, fast, an adrenaline rush. So much fun! I love it! But going to a "herding" trial...it takes my breath away every single time.

[WildFlower]

 

I play agility with my male. He's pretty good. Intense, fast, an adrenaline rush. So much fun! I love it! But going to a "herding" trial...it takes my breath away every single time.

 

^^ That's an awesome statement. I too, feel that way.

 

Yes, please share your location - people are more than happy to help point you in the direction of a USBCHA trial in your area.

[Kian's Mom]

I live in Terre Haute, In. We have an AKC agility trial here every Sept and several within an hours drive of me. That's why I went AKC for that. At herding trials can you have a dog there that is not competing? In agility you can't. Someone had told me there we herding trials up around I-74 but I couldn't find any info on them. I guess they also train.

[Debbie Meier]

You are within 4 hours of Lexington, KY, if you can find some time this week/weekend jump in the car and buzz on down to the Bluegrass!! It begins tomorrow and you will get the opportunity to see something magical.

 

Depending on the day you go you can see what the Novice class is like, the Nursery dogs and the Open dogs.

 

http://www.bluegrassclassicsdt.com/

[Debbie Meier]

How far are you willing to travel to seek information?

 

Allen and Sharon Hickenbottom are 2 hours from you just into Illinois at Albion, IL, very nice people and could probably direct you to someone that could help you. Otherwise there have been many clinics including one just recently with Jack Knox held down in Bennington, IN which is only 3 hours from you. Thad Buckler will be there in June and there should be some other well known and highly regard cliniciners there yet this year

[artsumo]

Why anyone would want to be associated with the AKC in any way shape or form is beyond comprehension.

[diane allen]

"At one time you all started out for the first time with your first bc , your first litter and so on."

 

Nope. I'm on my third (or maybe fourth) border collie. No litters in the past, none in my future. All spayed or neutered (OK, youngest one not yet, but soon). Yes, I do agility; none of my dogs have shown the least interest in herding. Nope, not breeding. Simple.

 

And....what they all said (above) - yep.

 

diane

[SS Cressa]

SS Cressa,

What I was upset about is I was told her parents were clear. After repeatedly asking for documentation an not getting it, figured something was up so I had her tested myself. And found out she was a carrier. Guess I learned that if I ever get another one get documentation before I buy it. Thought I was doing right of getting one that was tested. Live an learn.

If my memory is correct. Her parent could have been clear and she due to an error in the genes become a carrier.

 

Also did you look up her parents or grandparents up? I thought generally speaking that it became public once done.

[Eileen Stein]

SS Cressa, this is not correct. There are three possible DNA test results -- Normal, Carrier and Affected. A Normal bred to a Normal will not produce anything but Normals, and if those pups are bred to mates who tested Normal (or are the offspring of a sire and dam who tested Normal), they too can only produce Normals. There is no need to test in subsequent generations, so long as your recordkeeping is accurate. If you're thinking there's a theoretical possibility of a new, independent mutation of the CEA gene, that theoretical possibility is so remote that it would be totally irrational to test again for it. As a practical matter, the only way you are going to get a Carrier or Affected offspring from a breeding of two dogs cleared by parentage, no matter how far down the generations you go, is if one of the parent dogs was not in fact the dog who did the breeding (for example, if the bitch was bred by a dog who jumped the fence, or if the breeder deliberately misrepresented who the parent was).

 

Of course, if the breeder was talking about the sire having been found clear by an Ophthalmological (CERF) exam rather than a DNA test, that's a whole nother matter, as I'm sure you and Kian's Mom both know.

[gcv-border]

if one of the parent dogs was not in fact the dog who did the breeding (for example, if the bitch was bred by a dog who jumped the fence, or if the breeder deliberately misrepresented who the parent was).

 

This raises a question in my mind - When pups are registered with ABCA, are DNA tests performed to ensure that the dam and sire are, in fact, the ones listed on the registration papers?

 

Jovi

[Gideon's girl]

No, they are not.

[Liz P]

Even the AKC takes breeders at their word for registration of pups born via natural breedings. I think they might ask for DNA for frozen AI, but I am not certain about that.

[Debbie Meier]

They say that if a stud dog sires 7 or more litters in a lifetime or more then 3 in a year that AKC requires DNA testing to conducted on the male.

The Board of Directors redefined The American Kennel Club's leadership role in the world of purebred dogs by being the first all breed registry to require DNA profiles for stud dogs routinely siring litters. Effective for litters whelped on or after July 1, 2000, every sire producing seven or more litters in a lifetime or producing more than three litters in a calendar year must be 'AKC DNA Profiled.' These DNA profiles will be used for genetic identity and for parentage verification, and, thus, will be used to advance issues relating to the integrity of the registry.

Dogs with DNA profiles from the voluntary DNA Profile Program or from the Parent Breed Club DNA Program have already met this requirement. Dogs sampled during kennel inspections for the Compliance Audit Program are not DNA Profiled – DNA Profiles are not issued, and DNA Profile Numbers are not added to the registration record. Therefore, the dogs do not meet the requirement for Frequently Used Sires until a DNA sample is submitted via the DNA Profile Program.

[Eileen Stein]

 

This raises a question in my mind - When pups are registered with ABCA, are DNA tests performed to ensure that the dam and sire are, in fact, the ones listed on the registration papers?

 

Jovi

Not automatically, unless the "pup" being registered is more than two years old -- then it is required. But it has also been required on occasions when questions have been raised and there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the sire or dam listed might not in fact be the actual sire or dam.

[Tommy Coyote]

So how do you know that you are getting what you think you are getting? I have wondered about that. Unscrupulous breeders could have a litter and use the papers from other dogs. How would anyone ever know?

[Kian's Mom]

I think is was ABCA that did revoke a breeders rights just for that reason.