How do you feel about banning a breed?

[Smalahundur]

I don´t agree so wholeheartedly.

Ignored subtle warnings like described in previous posts (1/8 inch facial expression change?) do not make it acceptable for the dog to attack, especially when the provocation "from the dog´s point of view" was something as mild as an unknown child petting it on the head(and the resulting attack being not a nip but a ferocious tearing of flesh).

Nothing justifies the ownership of such an explosively dangerous dog.

You cannot expect the whole world to be an expert in reading dog body language.

You can expect people to learn their kids some common sense in how to behave around (strange) dogs. But dogs should be so safe that a minor faux pas in confronting them should not result in bloody wounds (or worse).

But in my opinion it should be about responsibility of individual owners and their individual dogs, no blanket legislation for whole breeds.

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[GentleLake]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a dog that won't bite. I don't make assumptions about a person being safe around my dog unless they know the basics about how to deal with dogs, and know my particular dog pretty well. And my dog is not particularly volatile.

 

What seems obvious to the seasoned dog-owner is often a swirling cloud of mystery to a non-dog person. And as for young children - they cannot be relied upon to act like adults. They are children. Impulse control is an on again, off again thing. And they lose focus easily. It is up to the dog owner to prevent mishaps.

 

Oh, I don't disagree with any of this. One of my dogs is a therapy dog and we do a lot of work with children. He's about the most mild mannered dog I've ever known, but I always watch all interactions between him and kids very closely.

 

I think maybe what I said wasn't said clearly. I believe the general dog owning public is clueless about dogs. Way too many people just go get a dog for their kids (or themselves) without having much real understanding about dogs, their behavior or their needs, especially emotional needs. Sometimes they do a little research to find a "kid friendly" breed. Then they expect the kids to do anything to this dog (heaven help them if the breed really isn't kid friendly) and the dog is supposed to put up with it with perfect aplomb. Forget about whether the kid's poking the dog's eyes or climbing all over it. It's the dog's fault if it objects. At least that's where the blame usually falls. Too many people don't seem to feel that it's their responsibility to teach children how to behave around dogs.

 

I completely agree that it's the dogs' guardians' responsibility to both make an effort to understand dog behavior and dog body language and also to be paying attention and to provide responsible supervision when dogs are interacting with people, especially people who are either children or people who are not in the dog's normal family circle.

 

It doesn't really sound like we disagree all that much at all.

[Maralynn]

But any normal, healthy dog -including Pit Bulls- don't just give 1/8" facial changes, they throw many more signs that something is wrong. Honestly in the tradgedy involving the pit bull and young girl that was brought up in this thread I wonder if there was an underlying health issue that played into the attack. A board member here had their beloved, well trained Border Collie seriously attack without warning and a brain tumor was suspected to be the cause. The fact is that most dog attacks are preceeded by clear warnings that people are ignorant to.

[mum24dog]

Staffies are pitbulls, just not 'American Pitbull Terrier'. And people in the UK call their american pitbulls terriers Staffies to get around the BSL.... so staffies in rescue are pitbulls (a generic term) and also possibly American Pitbull Terrier (a specific breed).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

 

Being British and interested in all things dog I think I have a pretty good handle on what people call their dogs here.

 

That link is prefaced by the warning that it reflect a US pov and may not be relevant in other countries.

 

Here we have a breed called the Staffordshire Bull Terrier which is perfectly legal. There is a much less common type called the Pit Bull which is banned. Hence an SBT is not a PB under English law. Legally the description of a PB type is largely based on the breed standard of the APBT, which is not the same as that of the SBT, although bears some similarities.

 

There is no such breed as the Am Staff, PB or indeed Irish Staff recognised here. All have been used by some PB owners to describe their dogs at times although it seems to be less common nowadays. Morons who want to sound hard even sometimes call their SBTs PBs.

 

(BTW none of them are terriers either.)

 

Unfortunately some innocent SBTs and their crosses can be caught by the legislation on appearance only and the owners those without papers can be in a very difficult position. It's a totally terrible piece of legislation. Even lab crosses have been misidentified by the authorities.

 

There is no general history of the PB as anything other than the dog of choice for criminals in the UK which is why the type has been proscribed. Very few people would ever have come across one so they pretty much didn't exist for the majority of the population, unlike the SBT which has been bred as a family pet.

 

Unfortunately though, the ban on PB types has led to the breed being hijacked by those who in the past would have had a PB and there are more aggressive ones around than there used to be.

[maggiesmommy]

I'm in the U.S. and when I think "pit bull" I think of pit bull terriers, bull terriers, Staffordshire bull terriers, and American Staffordshire terriers.

I've actually been pretty baffled when I've met dogs that were clearly staffies and said, "Oh, she's beautiful! Is she a Staffordshire?" and then I've gotten the response, "No, she's a pit bull." Even pit bull owners don't seem to realize that "pit bull" is a breed TYPE, not a breed.

[mtnfrank]

Could one really say the SBT don't deserve their bad rap?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=staffordshire+bull+terrier+attack&gbv=1&sei=wyEFUtn7FMTRrQHdgIFI

 

news articles about dozens of attacks in the UK on people, kids, dogs, cats over the last few weeks...

[G. Festerling]

Hey, is that not what Pam just stated?

[mtnfrank]

Hey, is that not what Pam just stated?

 

yes and no, paraphrasing (and clarifying)

 

mum24dog: SBT are innocent breed that is caught up unfairly in legislation and getting adopted by the type of people that used to want pitbulls

 

mtnfrank (me): SBT are source of many attacks (even if some of them may be misidentified) and perhaps should have been banned along with the other breeds in the 'pitbull' breed type. One could argue that the UK ban would work better if SBT had been included.

 

Note that here, Ontario, breed ban legislation is for 'pit bull' type dog as defined by a pitbull, staffordshire bull terrier, american staffordshire terrier, american pit bull terrier or dogs with appearance or physical characteristics substantially similar to those dogs.

[G. Festerling]

See, I read it as ..."people are going to other breeds who are now getting bad". Totally paraphrased.

 

But either way...sad.

[Kian's Mom]

I have grown up with many different breeds of dogs in my life, from mutts to pure bred and I'm not an expert at all.This is just my opinion. Any breed of dog has the potential of being aggressive toward people or animals. I worked for a vet and had more problems with the little dogs being biters. I had a rotti that I got when my daughter was little. Did I trust him with her yes. Did she do things that could of provoked him to bite yes. But he didn't ever touch her. She got it trouble. Now if you would act like you were going to hit either one of us he was a different dog. Wasn't trained that way he just was.

My daughter when she lived in Ok rescued a pit from the streets. Now whether she was actually a pit bull not sure, but she was a bully breed and had been used a bait dog from the looks of her. She came into my home with my dogs and never had an issue. Second pit I had been around not real fond of the breed after all the news about them. One of the best dogs you could ever ask for. She changed my prospective of the breed. Came home with a rip on her hip and laid in my kitchen floor while I stitched her up with only a topical pain killer around the wound. Acted like she went to sleep never moved. How many dogs regardless of breed would not attempted to get up or move away.

A friend of mine had an dog aggressive BC that they got from a rescue couldn't take him anywhere that he wouldn't try to attack another dog.

Seems like whatever breed is the in thing at the time are the ones that you hear about , Rotts, dobies, gsd and now pit. With being the in breed there are more of them so you hear more about them.. But banning any breed won't help. There will just be a new one come along. I don't feel it's right to label any breed as there are good and bad with any of them.A lot has to do with the way they are raised and trained.

Kinda like saying any family member of a serial killer will also be a serial killer .Just saying

[Tommy Coyote]

Most of my customers don't anything much about dogs in general. They know their dog pretty well. A lot of them think they know a lot about dogs. And that's what gets them into trouble.

 

They also don't know much about diet. Just about everyone just goes to the grocery store and gets the bag with the prettiest pictures on the front.

 

I think one of the most common errors that I see is that owners think dogs think like people and are motivated by the same emotions people are.

[Kian's Mom]

I just don't think it's fair to condemn a breed as a whole based on a few bad ones.

[Bungalocity]

I'm not going to name breeds specifically, but I can simply say after what I've seen at the dog park, (when we went) and very nice loving owners, i have no problem with certain breeds neutered out of existence. Tried to have an open mind, I really did...

[GentleLake]

Being "nice" and/or "loving" doesn't necessarily equal owners who have properly socialized, trained or are in control of their dogs.

 

Just sayin' . . .

[Tuxedodog]

I am guessing a lot of the pit owners, are not homeowners. When I went to get HO insurance they

asked what breed of dog I have. I said one was a mix and they asked what kind - I chose the Pyr

rather than GSD which was good since they would not insure if I had: Doberman, rottweiler, GSD, or

Pit Bull or mix. I got several quotes and all asked about breed of dog. The irony of this is that when they came out for the home inspection at a later date, I had to warn the inspector to stay away from the outside cat as the cat would attack unprovoked. There is nothing quite like going to the hospital for a severe cat bite, and having to admit it is your "pet" - at least I knew he was up to date on his shots. If I didn't live in a rural area, Greycat would have been pts because hewas unpredictable.

[Tommy Coyote]

The only two times I've had to to EMR for bites were for cat bites. They were way worse than any dog bite I've every had.

[GentleLake]

On a scale of dangerous bites, in terms of risk of infection, dogs are third, cats are second and human bites are the most dangerous.

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[D'Elle]

I'd like to several breeds neutered out of existence - Bulldogs, Pugs, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels - but not because they bite. Because their lives are so compromised by their head shape, twisted spines, inherited seizure disorders, etc.

 

But I don't want to see any breed legislated out of existence.

My feelings exactly.

Although what I would really like to see is not those breeds neutered out of existence, but rather bred/allowed to become what they should be (which in some cases is what they were originally). The extremes that make these dogs non-viable are relatively recent.....say, in the last 50 or, at the most, 100 years. If you look at photos or drawings of bulldogs from the past they are a completely different looking dog. Same is true of most breeds that the AKC has ruined.

[mum24dog]

If I was making one of those lists - and I wouldn't, even if I could - I would put Cocker Spaniels and Jack Russell Terriers at the top. Having worked as a vet's assistant, a groomer, a kennel maid and a trainer, I've gotten more bites from Cocker Spaniels than all other breeds combined.

 

But I'm guessing they are rather common. You'd have to factor in the relative popularity of a breed before casting aspersions on its temperament.

 

And many dogs will not be at all happy in the situations you mention.

 

Papillons, Poms, Shi Tzus and Westies wouldn't come out very well on my list if all factors weren't taken into account. But they are often owned by people who are indulgent and don't treat them as dogs.

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[Gideon's girl]

I had the same experience with a Westie. His name was Rugby, AKA Ruggers. He never stopped growling, ever. I've met plenty of nasty Shih Tzus though, but none as bad as Lhasas. And all 3 of the serious dog bites I've had were from Chow Chows and Chow mixes.

[Shetlander]

I have been pretty lucky with my Lhasas though they do require careful handling. For instance, when he was young Chili nipped (not a hard bite) an assistant who reached in to the crate to pull him out. The groomer had forgotten to tell her to offer him a treat to come out. I was mortified when I heard this but the girl had no ill feelings about the incident and Chili seems to be a favorite among the various staff. He really does have a nice temperament, for a Lhasa, and seems to be mellowing with age (except towards the Border Collie).

[rushdoggie]

Papillons, Poms, Shi Tzus and Westies wouldn't come out very well on my list if all factors weren't taken into account.

 

 

"What?? I'm just a minature Border Collie!"