Nel

[bcnewe2]

It sounds to me like she can relax in her kennel because she has no options which makes her mind relax. That's a great thing.

Can you have a small crate in the house where you family congregates so that she can see life around her but not participate if it's to much for her.

 

Faye is a nervous puppy. She took some time to come around to more than my little quiet family of 3 but we have people over all the time. It made her so nervous she'd bounce around just like you describe Nel doing. So I started crating her when people came over but she could see the action. I did cover most of the wire crate so she couldn't see all sides but still lots of vision. I saw a major improvement after some time. She does have some people she's not going to like (go figure) but she also found people that she loves! A crate is IMO one of the best tools you have for a fearful dog.

 

Faye also has a few issues with putting on a collar or leash. I often take it off her just so we can work on putting it back on. I feed her treats with the collar on my treat hand. I lay it on the floor and put food in it. Took her some time to get the nerve to grab the food off the collar. We've come to the point that she's not ever going to like the collar but she doesn't pee anymore when I reach for it or try and put it on her. Strange thing is once it's on her it doesn't bother her. Same with the leash, once it's on her it's ok but the act of putting either of those things on her can, if not done carefully make her pee.

 

Can you pick up Nel? Faye is ok with me picking her up. Doesn't' like it but doesn't pee on me (has before). What I was wondering was if you could pick her up to take her outside. Sorta taking the choice out of the equation. Plus no fiddle farting around with the leash or collar before needing her to go outside. If you have to put on a collar, hook on a leash, now walk outside. That's a lot of stuff that makes her nervous she has to go through in one time. Break them down in smaller increments.

 

I think you are a fine family fit for Nel. Who else would care to take the time and effort that you've put into her. You just need to keep being creative in finding ways to help Nel get over her issues.

[bcnewe2]

Just rereadimg some of the stuff you wrote. Did I understand right, her urine stinks differently than your other dogs? If that's the case I'd sure be checking for infection. That could cause or help to cause a lot of issues you mention.

[mum24dog]

This might sound contradicting, however although she is scared to death, she is close to me and we do have a really good bond, she will eat out of my hand, give me a kiss and cuddle etc in the house or in the garden

 

You may be right but it isn't uncommon for scared dogs to appear to want contact but for them not to be 100% comfortable with it - it's called being conflicted.

 

Giving you a "kiss" is often a submissive gesture too, although it can also be an information gathering exercise.

 

We have to tell people not to touch our BC because he gives all the signs of wanting strangers to fuss him and then suddenly it becomes too much and he can snap. And Ross, who was most like Nel, is obsessive for physical human contact but has never completely relaxed when it is given for any more than a short time.

 

You did say she couldn't be tempted by food but now you say that she will eat out of your hand. Could you clarify please?

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Mum24, she will eat out of my hand when in the house or garden, however if outside the house on a walk she wint eat, and also if she knows I'm trying to get her out of the house for a walk or whatever (which she does know as I said she is always 1 step ahead) she will not come to any of s and if we are persistant with calling her to cone out (even at a distance) she wil start wetting everywhere..

[urge to herd]

BCS, stop talking to her. From re-reading your posts, it seems to me that a trigger for her fear is human voices. If you need her to do something, go to her and 'ask' her to do it, using a tab leash, (6 or 8 inches long, with a snap so that it can hang from her collar) that you leave on her all the time. If for any reason she associates human voices with bad things for her, then you're making things worse for her. At the very least, stop using the high-pitched voice, talk to her in normal tones. She's cued up to expect something unpleasant when you use the high tones.

 

Along the same line, there may be too many voices, too much noise in your home for her to settle easily. How is that she plays with the children? Are they wrestling with her, running around with her, tossing a ball? Look at what she is doing well, contrast those contexts and environments with what is happening when she's not doing well, and you'll get some more clues.

 

Can she be confined in a crate in your home? Sorry if this has already been asked and answered. Can you have a quiet evening or afternoon, no tv or radio, no loud games, everyone doing something quiet? Is she more nervous when all the family is in the same room or less?

 

My Gibbs is one of those conflicted dogs. He approaches strangers for all the world as if he wants to say hi, then shies away when they reach for him. Asking people to totally ignore him for several visits has helped a lot.

 

I so agree with the idea of video when she's freaking out. Also get her checked for a urinary tract infection. She could be ill, if so, she needs to be treated.

 

Good luck, please let us know how things go.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[geonni banner]

Re: the bad-smelling wee. Is it possible she is blowing her anal glands when she goes into "submissive mode"? Anal-gland secretion smells dreadful, infected or not, and some dogs blow them a lot.

 

You said she seems to have no fear of children. Can the children lead her outside?

 

Is your garden fenced securely? If so, how about leaving the door open for her to go out and wee?

 

I agree that it's a good idea to let the dog alone most of the time. If you are cajoling her to come and be friends, come eat her supper, etc. It may be too much for her. My dog was very anxious when I got her at six months, and just letting her alone - not fussing over her - was the best medicine for her. She would come to me when she wanted something, and I would respond, but not effusively. She loved getting rubs and pets, but in small doses, and quietly. After a couple of years she had slowly transitioned to a dog that would roughhouse with the best of them, and growl with mock ferocity when playing tug.

 

The fearfulness with adults may be due to her previous owner coming down hard on her without warning; giving her a sense that adults are prone to sudden, unpredictable violence. If that is true, it will take lots of time for her to begin to relax and trust.

[mum24dog]

If you need her to do something, go to her and 'ask' her to do it, using a tab leash, (6 or 8 inches long, with a snap so that it can hang from her collar) that you leave on her all the time.

 

Good suggestion.

 

BCS - you can get one here -

 

http://www.tuffstuff-ltd.co.uk/p/9/handle

[Jexa]

 

My Gibbs is one of those conflicted dogs. He approaches strangers for all the world as if he wants to say hi, then shies away when they reach for him. Asking people to totally ignore him for several visits has helped a lot.

 

 

Just wanted to add to this train of thought, Rudder acts the same. He'll wag his tail, dance in place, whine softly, and act like he's just dying to say hi when he sees a stranger. But the second they look directly at him or approach over him he shies away or tries to hide. Some strangers have thought this means he just needs more encouragement and clap their hands, gesture wildly, and talk in this high squeaky excited voice. In reality, this just makes him freak more. We've had the best success when we can get strangers to just totally ignore him. It sounds like maybe it would help Nel if you did the same with her, at least until she settles down.

 

Rudder also used to submissive urinate whenever he saw someone new. I didn't make a big deal out if it, just cleaned it up and went on with life and tried to avoid pushing him that far over his threshold. We did lots of work making strangers less scary, and with maturity he stopped. I realize Nel has a much lower threshold than Rudder, but the principles are still the same.

 

I'll echo that it sounds like you are frustrated and just about at your wit's end with this. That is completely understandable, but I guarantee Nel can pick up on that and it's only slowing progress even further.

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Guys, took some videos today in different scenarios so you can see how she changes, will post them up later, the only scenario I didn't take was inside our house because of the mess she makes, she wetts all over the floor in large puddles and even over the couch and it really isn't nice.

 

When you've had to clear up the house and spray freshner to make things humanly bareable, and we are no snobs trust me, we like our animals nd have the rabbits inside the house permenantly, although caged, we do let them.ave a run around on a regular basis, but nobody would.be able to put up with what we have from Nel.for around two years any longer, I honestly do hope we can find a.way of stopping her wetting, as I said I won't et her go, I love her to bits, but I want her to he like Sam is, a good house dog that can be left inside when needed and not come home to seeing the leather couch chewed up (yes not kidding it happened) and being able to get her out of the house to wee.

 

Consider this, if you don't get her out of the house for a walk she wets, and if you do take her out of.the house she wets due to submission, so.no.win, the only outcome.is her wetting in.the house!

 

Also, in response to one of the posts above, our children have managed to coax her out of the back door about twice to play on the trampoline for a split second and then she darts straight in, but the majority of the time.she gets to.the back.door and bolts back in......

[juliepoudrier]

Also, in response to one of the posts above, our children have managed to coax her out of the back door about twice to play on the trampoline for a split second and then she darts straight in, but the majority of the time.she gets to.the back.door and bolts back in......

But you said she is good with the children and will play with them? When does that happen?

 

J.

[BorderCollieSam]

She runs around the house with them and nudges them etc., and also in the garden, but will not leave the house with them anymore than she wikl with us, although as said she has for a split second on a couple of occasions and hasnt at all with us....

[BorderCollieSam]

MY BOY

 

[SS Cressa]

What are you going to do if nothing works and she continuous pees in the house?

 

What happens if you leave the door open and just ignore her? Letting her make the decision? What happens if you just leave the leash on her in the house?

 

What have you tried? Has it gotten progressively worst? Have you ever gotten hold of the breeder to see if this is common in their lines and how they dealt with it?

 

Have you tried using a thunder shirt?

 

Can you limit her exposure to adults and have the kids be her care giver for a little bit?

[BorderCollieSam]

As stated shes outside at the moment so not peeing in the house, but this creates problems when it rains or thunders.

 

Leaving a leash on her sends her crazy, even the collar and chain she seems to magically get off.

 

The door can be left open all day and she will not go out, she is too petrified.

 

Our children aren't able to get her outside either, only on the odd couple of occasions as stated and that was only for a split second.

[geonni banner]

I am sorry to hear of your troubles, and those of your dog's. She sounds very unhappy. I would find it very hard to constantly be witness to so much fear and unhappiness.

 

After so long a time I would have to ask myself two questions. Can this dog ever be a happy well-adjusted creature? And am I the person to make that happen?

[Gloria Atwater]

 

 

Also, in response to one of the posts above, our children have managed to coax her out of the back door about twice to play on the trampoline for a split second and then she darts straight in, but the majority of the time.she gets to.the back.door and bolts back in......

 

 

Hi there ~

 

I've been reading this thread, though because I'm not animal behaviorist I can't offer any help.

 

However, one word in your post, above, rang a big bell with me: trampoline.

 

To be honest, I can't imagine anything scarier to a sensitive dog like Nel than children on a trampoline. To you, it's just kids playing. To her ... it's violent and terrifying. All that jumping, flailing, shouting and laughing could easily have frightened poor Nel. The fact she loves and likes to be with your children wouldn't matter: the fear would override that love and back in the house she flies.

 

That's something I saw someone else suggest: that the sounds and activities you consider ordinary in your home may in fact be triggers for stress in Nel.

 

You've said she finds it impossible to really settle and relax in the house, even though she wants to be in there. So, it might be worth looking at your normal household sounds and activities, to evaluate what all might simply be sensory overload for Nel.

 

Simple things like the noises on the television or the radio, music on the stereo, people thumping up and down stairs, children romping and screaming in play, the sound of the tea boiler, the gurgle of the hot water heater, your wife calling the kids in for dinner, someone stomping mud off their shoes, a door that slams, a cupboard that bangs, phones ringing, the normal racket of kids around the house ... Any or all of these could trigger restiveness and upset with Nel.

 

So, I wonder if the trampoline itself could be one the reasons she won't go outside. If just once she looked out the door and saw kids bouncing and screeching - that could be all it takes. She may then have decided that your Outside is that scary place where little humans do loud, violent, irrational things. I've known dogs to develop phobias of silly things like ceiling fans or a collection of straw hats on the wall, simply because those things once frightened them.

 

Also, when she IS outside, what noises will she hear? Do you have neighbors who do normal stuff like run engines or operate power tools? Are there cars or motorcyles going by? Do children ride bikes or play ball out on the street? These again could be things that at one point scared her, so now she identifies the outdoors as a dangerous, frightening place.

 

Anyhow, as I said, I can't really offer any solutions. I'm just offering you things to think about, when considering if your household is really the best for Nel. If everyday things upset her, if she can't relax and be at peace ... is that fair for her? Activities or sounds that you consider normal, she could see as violent and frightening.

 

Or, if you can identify some of the things that scare her, maybe you can find ways to help her alleviate those fears. The overriding sense I get, here, is that she is anxiety ridden pretty much all the time, and even being "safe" in the house does not bring her true peace.

 

For short term help, all I can say is do put a solid roof on her outdoor kennel, so when she is put outside, she can't climb out.

 

For indoors, if you must leave her in the house unsupervised at times, please consider buying her a good crate and training her to use that. Just having a crate to call her "den" in the house may be a big help, since it will be a place she can go to escape all the household noises and be safe. For a nervous dog, crates aren't cruel, they are safety and comfort, a place to hide and relax.

 

Wishing you and little Nel luck,

 

Gloria

[mja]

Hello Samdog, After reading all the posts and very helpful responses, I was thinking that if she is comfortable in her kennel, start there. Sit cross legged on the floor not talking to her, letting her approach you, sit with her as she eats. Remove anything collar etc. that makes any sounds. Eventually get her to accept a light rope on her neck which would eliminate noise. You can eventually, slowly move out into the yard very slowly sitting and retreat if this is too much for her. For now forget about the house, its to much with the urine problem and trying to than get her out of the house so work where you are both comfortable. Just take it very slowly and low key with the goal in mind that the rope will become her life line to you and comfort. I would not at this time give her freedom or on the other hand, make a fuss over her. Although she wants in the house as if it represents safety to her, she is not comfortable there and than I am guessing does not know what to do much less relax, at any rate I wish you good luck and admire your commitment.

[juliepoudrier]

After so long a time I would have to ask myself two questions. Can this dog ever be a happy well-adjusted creature? And am I the person to make that happen?

Fair questions, Geonni. BCS, I know you say you don't want to give her up, but it sounds like every interaction y'all have with Nel follows a set pattern and I wonder if simply chaning location or people would make a difference for her (thtat is, break the pattern). She doesn't sound as if she could be very happy. And I still think anti-anxiety meds may help her a great deal, especially if you're determined to keep working with her.

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

People have offered lots of ideas. You have explained what Nel does, and what you have done, but I have not read where you are thinking of trying any of the advise given.

Meds., roof on kennel, crate in house, keeping her stress level as low as possible by controlling her environment, etc.

 

With all that has been suggested have you decided you might give anything a try? I hope so.

[BorderCollieSam]

Bcnewe2, I don't like the way you stated 'I hope so', it is rather intimidating don't you think?

 

I have already mentioned she wont go out the back door if left open, the kennel has a roof on, she also wont go in a crate and even if she does how would this help get her out of the house to go to the toilet?

[SS Cressa]

BCS... what have you done to reduce Nel's anxiety? Have you done any research for the different treatments or behavior modification?

I realize you have said multiple different suggest wouldn't/couldn't work. What about the other ones?

[mum24dog]

Bcnewe2, I don't like the way you stated 'I hope so', it is rather intimidating

 

Strikes me as frustrated rather than intimidating.

 

You started this thread with

 

I guess i'm looking for a bit of advise.

 

You have been given lots of advice and ideas to try (based on what you have said, which sometimes changes from post to post) by people generous enough to take the time to give you the benefit of their experience. Sadly there are a lot of Nels out there and some have been in the care of people on here who have got through to them eventually and turned them around.

 

All the advice you have been given is along the same lines; you have been given options ranging from cheap to expensive to try.

 

And yet all you have done is make excuses why what has been suggested can't be done, has been done and failed or simply ignored what has been said. Surely somewhere in the wealth of suggestions there is something you could try - something that will have made you rethink your interpretation of what Nel is trying to tell you? Having always had BCs isn't enough if all your others were very different from Nel.

 

There are not going to be any quick fixes for a dog like her.

 

the kennel has a roof on

 

Your kennel isn't secure or how did she escape? People mean provide her with a kennel and a run and that the run should have an escape proof roof on.

[mum24dog]

Where's Sam in all this?

 

This is the only reference to interaction between the 2 dogs and I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

sometimes Sam has got a little carried away before and chased after her when I let her off the lead for a run through the fields, and he chases and starts to play fight, and she turns another side on and is like a Wilde fox snarling and teeth out like a warewolf and scares the living daylights out of him, she chases him whilst she is like it in a fury.

 

Is she just playing? Asserting her bitch supremacy over him? Genuinely frightened of him?

 

I'd be interested in the dynamics between the 2 dogs and it's why a home visit from a reputable behaviourist with more than Mickey Mouse qualifications would be a good idea.

 

It isn't clear how much opportunity Nel gets to learn confident and relaxed behaviour from Sam, especially since she is kennelled. Or maybe being a Queen Bitch she wouldn't demean herself to follow his example. Just because a bitch is terrified doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't aware that she is of the (normally) dominant gender.

 

Interaction between them can change depending on location too. If allowed (she isn't) my wary and easily spooked little mongrel bitch will control every move our BC makes in one particular room and pin him in a corner if he doesn't obey her - clearly resource guarding "her" room. He's at least twice her size but knows his place. In the rest of the house and garden she tolerates him but is still watching for him to put a paw out of line. Away from the house and running free they are the best of friends and play happily together.

 

Just wondering since it isn't just about the relationship between one dog and humans when there is another dog in the equation.

[Journey]

Just curious... has she been spayed?

[BorderCollieSam]

Mum24, the first post of yours I'm not even going to reply to, as its taunting and suggesting I'm lieing, which I am most definetely NOT a lier and take offence at the very thought, as you refer to the information I am providing changing from post to post.

 

However, with regard to the remainder and following post which is more helpful and constructive I reply accordingly.

 

Yes I have been provided with some good advise, however some of it is not an option at this moment in time due to lack of funds or not relevant due to the lack of understanding of the given situation.

 

Firstly, as much as you may all believe that Nel would.be best suited in another household, I can assure you that Nel would certainly not be rehomed due to her mental state.

 

Secondly, we have a strong bond and she has grown to trust me over the last couple if years, she now runs to see me and jump up at me to make a fuss of, and when out and a bird scarer sounds, she now runs.to me.for protection instead of running in the opposite direction wbich she originally did when she first came to us.

 

When I come in from work and she hears my voice, she jumps.up.ontop.of.her kennel.and looks through the kitchen window.to.see me.

 

However yes she still.does have problems.

 

I belive some of the confusion in my posts may be due to.the misunderstanding and differences between.our countries.

 

Here in the UK, our Kennels that we refer to.are little.wooden looking.houses with a roof on, but with an.opening at the front which the dog can get out of, it would.be unfair to keep a dog inside due to.the size and lack.if space.

 

I would.like to.get one of those large cage kennels suggested when funds permit which would prevent Nel.escaping from the garden when thundering, and in response to.another post a above, her reason.for doing this has nothing to do with not feeling safe or not bonding with us, its due entirely on.not being.able.to.get into.the house and running to a hideaway she knows of that she found.during our walks.

 

I think medication may be a possibility to consider with Nel, as she is a very timid and anxious dog, and also getting her checked for a urine infection, but I do know for sure that her urinating is due to worry and not an infection, however I believe the smell worth investigating.

 

Sam, although a litre too confident and bullying at times, does provide her with confidence and security to go out, I remember a long time ago I took her out without Sam, and let her off, and she ran back home.