Nel

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Journey, no she hasn't, but we have noticed a significant increase in her confidence when she is in.season, she is like another dog.

[bcnewe2]

BCSam

I didn't mean to sound intimidating but it feels like nothing anyone has suggested is going to work for you, as you tell us why it won't work. So Mum was right, frustrated is more what I'm feeling and tried to convey in my last post.

 

Let's look at that for a moment. Did I effect how you felt with my words? Did I change your attitude in how you wrote your comment back? That is how we effect our dogs too. Not in writing but in actions and feelings. If you feel frustrated and upset at Nel and the situation, she feels all those things right along with you.

 

Sometimes we have to change our own minds and attitudes to effect a change.

I will try again

A crate in the house to help her settle. But still interact with the family. Lots of dogs aren't crate trained but crate training would be the lesser of the evils for Nel. She might not go in herself but you can put her in.

 

Carry her outside or put a tag on her collar so you can just casually walk over and take her outside. the bigger deal you make of it the bigger deal she makes of it.

 

Putting a roof on her kennel run to keep her safe from getting out in a storm.

 

Anti-Anxiety drugs to take the edge off her worry.

 

Have you tried any of these things?

 

At first it might be a bit worse till you get a routine set but in the end if she has less freedom she might feel a bit safer.

 

Some people feel they are doing good by their dog if they let the dog have lots of freedom. With some dogs this works just fine. But a dog like Nel IMO needs to be in a controlled environment so she can feel safe.

It's like letting a 2 year old have the run of the house with no bed time or naps. They love it but can't manage on their own. They might balk at your control but in your heart you know what is best so you do what you need to do. That is how I look at Nel.

 

good luck with your dog BCSam. Hope you find something that works for her and your family.

[juliepoudrier]

Deja vu all over again....

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

Julie

Where's the like button!

[mum24dog]

Deja vu all over again....

 

J.

 

Yup.

[BorderCollieSam]

BCSam

I didn't mean to sound intimidating but it feels like nothing anyone has suggested is going to work for you, as you tell us why it won't work. So Mum was right, frustrated is more what I'm feeling and tried to convey in my last post.

 

Let's look at that for a moment. Did I effect how you felt with my words? Did I change your attitude in how you wrote your comment back? That is how we effect our dogs too. Not in writing but in actions and feelings. If you feel frustrated and upset at Nel and the situation, she feels all those things right along with you.

 

Sometimes we have to change our own minds and attitudes to effect a change.

I will try again

A crate in the house to help her settle. But still interact with the family. Lots of dogs aren't crate trained but crate training would be the lesser of the evils for Nel. She might not go in herself but you can put her in.

 

Carry her outside or put a tag on her collar so you can just casually walk over and take her outside. the bigger deal you make of it the bigger deal she makes of it.

 

Putting a roof on her kennel run to keep her safe from getting out in a storm.

 

Anti-Anxiety drugs to take the edge off her worry.

 

Have you tried any of these things?

 

At first it might be a bit worse till you get a routine set but in the end if she has less freedom she might feel a bit safer.

 

Some people feel they are doing good by their dog if they let the dog have lots of freedom. With some dogs this works just fine. But a dog like Nel IMO needs to be in a controlled environment so she can feel safe.

It's like letting a 2 year old have the run of the house with no bed time or naps. They love it but can't manage on their own. They might balk at your control but in your heart you know what is best so you do what you need to do. That is how I look at Nel.

 

good luck with your dog BCSam. Hope you find something that works for her and your family.

 

Hi bcnewe2, you sound like a Psycologist!

 

It may sound like i'm putting obstacles in the way, however until you are in this situation with a dog like Nel, its difficult to imagine how difficult some of the suggestions will be.

 

For example, a crate is a nightmare, we tried that a while ago when we left her for the first time when she chewed the leather couch, we then purchased a crate, she didn't like it, we tried to put her in and she wets everywhere.

 

I was really surprised when she went into the Kennel in the garden herself, as it wasn't originally purchased for a dog, i originally purchased it for cats that i inherited, however the cats didn't use it, and the first time Nel see it she went straight in and took it over. I have thought about putting the Kennel in the house, but it is massive and the house needs to be livable and comfortable. I'm considering building something nice and homely for the house but serves the same purpose as the Kennel that she can get inside, feel comfortable and secure, however this still won't help with when it comes time in the evening or morning or afternoon to get her outside into the garden or for a walk to relieve herself, it ends up being messy with her peeing everywhere, honestly it really isn't pleasant.

 

You can't pick her up, when you pick her up she will pee everywhere.

 

Putting a length of leash on her, she goes mad, pulls, scratches, and eventually she gets it off.

 

She also senses when you are going to take her out, she will hide in an area of the house, for example we have a corner section between 2 x couches with a table, and she will get under/behind that, we then have to remove the table to get to her by which time she has already wet everywhere.

 

She already has a roof on her Kennel.

 

Anti - Anxiety drugs sounds like an option to consider.

[BorderCollieSam]

Here are some videos of her taken yesterday.

 

Nel in the garden, showing her Kennel, a little different than the types of Kennels you are thinking of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNF9MBPTu_k

[BorderCollieSam]

Trying to get Nel on a leash to take her for a walk, note how she turns over? The would have resulted in her peeing everywhere inside the house, and as i walked away i could feel wet over the lower half of my legs, don't know if it was pee or from the water on the ground that she may have rolled in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQWeWnoVUCs

[BorderCollieSam]

Nel walking on the lead, notice how timid she feels? Look at her tail, you can't even see it as its tucked complete under her stomach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b5yG-64BGA

[BorderCollieSam]

Releasing Nel from the Lead and running off the lead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnp9zTJSvGI

[BorderCollieSam]

On a walk, notice how she keeps waiting for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmIsNQXQ7U

[BorderCollieSam]

Nel off the lead again running

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5OS9ZY8dzE

[BorderCollieSam]

Back on the lead, notice how the tail is tucked under again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz73_VIa2rc

[BorderCollieSam]

Taking a rest break sitting in the fields with my dogs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwXN0QQ232k

[Laurae]

never mind

[bcnewe2]

I was really surprised when she went into the Kennel in the garden herself, as it wasn't originally purchased for a dog, i originally purchased it for cats that i inherited, however the cats didn't use it, and the first time Nel see it she went straight in and took it over. I have thought about putting the Kennel in the house,

 

Have you tried an enclosed plastic airline type crate? I use metal ones but I cover them with blankets (yes I've had the blankets chewed by a clever pup) just put it in the room, it can be rather small because they like small tight hidey spaces, and leave it there. Toss some treats when she's lookin at you but don't make her go in. Put some goodies in there that might draw her in.

 

I'm sure she is submissively peeing but I'd be checking for infection as you say it is stinky. Have the vet check her anal glands too.

 

There are lots of things my dogs would rather not do. But they have no choice. cutting nails is something that if they could, no one would have me do it. I will take on any battle about it, I don't get mad I just do the job. eventually they give up the fight and let me do it. Same with her going outside. She has to go, you have to make her. Put towels down or blankets where you know she's going to pee. Just get on with it. No talking no taking no for an answer.

 

Same with a collar. I have a very head shy pup. She hates her collar and leash. So sorry dear you are going to wear it anyways. You can make it tight enough that she can't take it off. You have to realize you aren't torturing the dog your are teaching the dog. My dog is ok now with it on but hates putting it on and taking it off. Again, sorry pup gonna do it anyways. Pee or bite isn't going to change anything. I'm not mean or mad just doing what I have to do.

 

I think you are feeling sorry for poor Nel. Not to mention sorry for your situation. I would to, having my house ruined but a dog I was trying to help. But you have to find a way to put all that emotion aside and do what has to be done. I really think your attitude is effecting Nel more than you realize.

 

Hope you have the funds to get her to the vet and try some anti-anxiety meds. That might be your best bet.

 

Good luck.

[waffles]

I watched just the video of her running in her kennel and the one of you leashing her up.

 

I don't think you have responded to any of my suggestions but in the video you are putting the leash on her when she is rolled over on her side! She is NOT okay with you doing this...just because she allows it doesn't me she is ok with it. You need to work with her on this (re read my posts and others) and stop just putting it on her when she is on her side.

 

This whole post reminds me of many Dog Whisperer episodes where the owner claims they have done everything yet obviously the have not. I know most people here dislike that show but it is easy to see how most owners really need someone to come in and SHOW them what to do. Reading stuff online clearly is not help you as you have a response for everything about how it won't work or how you have tried it.

 

Honestly, from the 2 videos I watched, she reminds me of Levi when I 1st got him. Your descriptions vs what I saw in the video are not the same. Your dog does not seem nearly as bad as you make her sound. I hope you find a professional who can come in and show you how to handle these situations differently than you do now. You have come to the best place for advice but you don't seem to think any of us are qualified to help you-please get a professional to show you how to help her. I wish you the best.

[waffles]

I can't help myself- your dog is not as bad as you think! It is you who needs to learn how to handle things differently. I know you will take that as an insult but really, if you want to help her you need to look at yourself. Changing a dogs behavior is more about the person than the dog.

 

The videos of her on leash are just what Levi was when I got him! I put a leash on him to take him home from his previous home and he alligator rolled several times and had to be dragged out from under my car. The first 2 days he acted like the leash weighed 100lbs, refusing to walk, then walking as if he were in a war zone, then walking upright but tail still under his belly, to eventually walking like a normal happy dog. Your dog looks so happy offleash (who cares if she keeps looking back at you? That is a GOOD sign, she is looking to you for reassurance). The more offleash exercise the better chance you have of working with her. Please re read my posts about leashing her up. If I had a dog that always pee'd while walking in and out, I would just walk him in and out of the doorway countless times until it lost meaning. Act like you are on a mission, don't say anything just walk in and out with her on leash. Or, in my previous posts I gave suggestions about doing things the slower way. Either way, this issue should not be the reason she has to live alone in a small area most of the time (plus you said you want her to live inside).

 

I really think you need someone to come in and show you have to handle her. I see an owner who cares a ton but isn't quite sure how to handle these behavioral issues. It is you who needs to change not so much her. She looks ready.

[juliepoudrier]

BCS,

When people say "kennel" they mean the type of kennel runs that I posted pictures of. FWIW, you don't have to buy a prefab one; you could always make one. What you show (that you're calling a kennel) is what most of us in the US would simply call a dog house (you can get ones here that look exactly like yours.) And a crate is the plastic or wire box that a dog can be kept in (or that you would ship a dog in).

 

So when people keep referring to putting her in a kennel with a roof on, they are really referring to the larger run like I posted, with a roof on top to keep her from climbing out and not her dog house.

 

I agree with Waffles that you need to get someone who can give you hands-on help. This whole thread is just too much like past threads, and it's too frustrating to continue. I'm not really sure what you're looking for, but I don't think it's advice. I wish you luck.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

One last try.

 

Video 1 - She is licking her lips as you stroke her - a sign that she is worried.

 

Video 2 - You are leaning over and grabbing her when she is showing submission, although it is good that you are getting down to her level but side on rather than facing her would be less threatening.

 

Video 3 - I understand why you are using a choke chain if it is hard to get a lead on her but she doesn't need it from what you show and a choke plus a chain lead are heavy and may have bad associations for her. Try a lighter and less noticeable lead, even if you still want to use a slip lead. Rope is kinder than chain, especially for a dog that doesn't seem to pull.

 

Off lead she looks happy and relaxed - maybe because she is away from the stressful home environment. She is in her natural environment.

 

I'm with bcnewe2 when she advocates being confident and deliberate and stopping faffing about with Nel but I wouldn't go so far as to advise that you force her into situations that she may not be able to cope with. It may be the right advice in her case or it may not but it's impossible to say without knowing the dog.

 

I'm in total agreement with those who have said that you need first hand help. You need someone to

get to know Nel and witness her behaviour

identify the triggers

help you read her body language and adjust your behaviour accordingly and

formulate a workable plan with you that is tailored to her and her particular issues.

 

You seem to have come a long way with her since you took her on and you just need assistance with getting her over these last hurdles.

[Jexa]

I'm considering building something nice and homely for the house but serves the same purpose as the Kennel that she can get inside, feel comfortable and secure

 

 

This is EXACTLY what the crate will do for her. I am willing to bet you would see a drastic reduction in peeing in the house if Nel was crate trained. Especially based on how much she loves her dog house outside, I can darn near guarantee that you can have her crate trained and loving her crate very quickly. Just because she didn't automatically love it the first time she saw it does not mean she can't be crated. Crate training is actually very easy. Rudder was so terrified of his crate the first time he saw it he wouldn't be in the same room as it. In the space of one evening, I had him voluntarily going in it, happily and calmly. And this was a dog who frequently submissive urinated and was scared of everything and everyone but me. I rewarded any progress I saw with his favorite treats and took baby steps. Then I fed him in his crate. Again taking baby steps, within a couple days he would beg to be let in his crate and would happily stay there with a chew toy all day long. Thats the big picture idea, if you use the search function and search for crate training you will find a wealth of detailed information, much of it geared to sensitive or timid dogs.

 

She is no where near as bad as I assumed. Im sure the most frustrating part is urinating in the house. Believe me, been there, done that. I have nothing to add to what others have said before, they've said it perfectly. Best of luck.

 

ETA: you can make the crate more den like by putting blankets around it

[geonni banner]

I note that Nel's tail carriage is generally low. Lower, yes, with the lead on, but in terms of degree, not that much different. Sam seems to naturally carry his tail higher at all times, but that may or may not have anything to do with his state of mind.

 

As for the collar and lead situation. I would put a harness on her, then she won't have the association of fuzzling around her head and ears to attach the lead. She may be wigged out about the harness at first, but you can just leave it on - with or without a tab lead.

 

I too expected to see a much more troubled dog from your description. Does that mean I think you intentionally misrepresented her? No. It means that is how I interpreted your explanations and descriptions.

 

She seems a bit hypervigilant, but that, like her tail-carriage may be part and parcel of her character and personality. As for "checking in" visually on walks. That's a good thing. My ex-fearful dog does the same thing. But it's clear that she isn't afraid to range out from you as well. So I wouldn't worry about it.

 

I personally think meds would be a good option for this dog. I don't think she would need to be on them long-term. I'm not a behaviorist, but I am agoraphobic. This dog "looks like I feel."

[mja]

 

She is no where near as bad as I assumed. Im sure the most frustrating part is urinating in the house. Believe me, been there, done that. I have nothing to add to what others have said before, they've said it perfectly. Best of luck.

 

I also agree with others that she is not nearly as bad as described. One thing is that your voice is very high pitched, she is already excited submissive type so try to lower your voice, be softer. Your voice alone can cause her to "wet". It will be a hard habit to break the way you talk to her but just try it. I know you think you are trying to reassure her but its not really working. She seems very willing to come to you, so give up the heavy chain collar and leash, use something lighter. Let us see a video of you just sitting with her, no voice, no eye contact just to see if she acts as unsure/nervous/anxious/worried or whatever you want to call it. She really is a nice dog.

[mum24dog]

I too expected to see a much more troubled dog from your description. Does that mean I think you intentionally misrepresented her? No. It means that is how I interpreted your explanations and descriptions.

 

This.

 

But I suppose we all have our personal ideas of what constitutes a huge problem.

Destroying the house and weeing everywhere may seem a big one but it can be managed and overcome in most cases - and I'm definitely behind the suggestions of a gradual and pleasant introduction to a crate.

 

A dog that was so troubled she couldn't behave normally under any circumstances could be a bigger worry but that isn't Nel.

 

This is all taking me back 13 years to the time noone but me could even look at Ross without him weeing in fear and he had to be crated to stop him eating the house if I left him, even if there was someone else in the house. He still barks at my husband (his own fault) but otherwise he has turned into a perfect house dog. It did take time, patience and understanding though.

[Maralynn]

It may sound like i'm putting obstacles in the way, however until you are in this situation with a dog like Nel, its difficult to imagine how difficult some of the suggestions will be.

 

 

Been there. Done that. So have many other here. The suggestions that people are giving really do work when you do them right.

 

I'm thinking that (like other have suggested) you need a good trainer/behaviorist that can come to your home and show you have they should be implemented. Because I think you are unwittingly feeding the nervous behavior.

 

Watching your videos, I see a anxious, very confused dog. Honestly, I think with the right handling she could pass for pretty normal. Some meds may be very helpful to start off with and for high anxiety times. Like the others, I was expecting to see something much worse from your description.