Nel

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi All,

 

I meant to state that i thought you would comment that she isn't as bad as i explained, however remember this is when she is already outside, not when she's inside worrying about going outside if that makes sense?

 

I will try and get a video of her and me together without me speaking and just sitting there like somebody above requested, i think this will be a good show of exactly what she is like, i will take her in the house and risk the urinating just to show you what she is like inside the house, she can't settle, is constantly jumping over things, running one way, running the next, ears pricked up constantly, and then comes the time you try and get her out of the house and all the pressure begins with the peeing and mopping up and spraying air freshner etc.,

 

Regarding the choker chain, this 'was' a necessity, when we first took her on, the first walk out she slipped the collar on a walk with my wife, i was at work, my wife was in pieces as she knew how much she meant to me, and she sprinted away from my wife and took around 1/2 hour to find.

 

She then slipped the collar with me, and i decided from there on that i would only take her out with a choker chain on, i would rather have that and it look cruel than to have her end up under the wheels of a car.

[BorderCollieSam]

She really is a nice dog.

 

Thank you, i think she's a real beauty, although i've got a good bond with Sam, he is much more of a confident dog, i've got a very special connection with Nel, possibly because of the nice gentle character that she is.

 

I allowed her upstairs a few months ago, she laid alongside my side of the bed on the floor, and it was nice to open my eyes throughout the night and see her laying/sitting there looking at me, she woke me up a few times with a nudge, however apparently she wasn't always laying there, my wife said she was up and down the stairs all night long.....

[Journey]

I would like to see a vid of her inside.

 

Also, when you are leashing her up, she's on her back, stop. Just give her a cookie and speak to her. I would like to see her on her feet when the lead is being clipped on. Take time, earn trust in her stressed situation. Help her. So maybe you don't go for a walk right away...maybe she relaxes with a new modified approach to being placed on lead?

[MommaLove]

I watched only the first two videos, because my children interrupted me. I'll go back again later to see the others.

 

I noticed in the first video, Nel seems intimidated by your tone of voice. With my children, I need to use a soft, calm tone of voice when they feel scared. Could it be the same for Nel? Using a higher pitch can get an already nervous dog feeling even more stressed. Try speaking to her very softly and calmly, maybe even in a whisper for a little while, and see how she responds.

 

I also noticed that you use a chain for a lead. When my Coby came to live here, he also had a chain for a lead. He HATED wearing that thing, because the extra weight was just very unpleasant for him. He's not a nervous dog at all! He was much happier when I switched to a lightweight nylon lead.

 

A few thoughts on getting Nel's leash on her -

 

Right now, Nel has a negative association with the leash, for whatever reason. When she sees you coming with it, she gets nervous. Your goal is to get her comfortable with the leash. This is a situation in which I would use a click-treat sequence, but you can do the same kind of thing without the clicker. Sit quietly on the ground near Nel's dog house. Don't look at her. Don't call her to you. Don't speak to her. Put the leash on the ground beside you. Ignore Nel. If she approaches you, give her a small treat and then continue to ignore her. Do this for several days.

 

After a few days, sit with the leash across your lap rather than beside you. Keep rewarding Nel for approaching. DO NOT reward submissive behaviour - just ignore it!

 

When Nel will approach you with the leash on your lap, start holding it in your hand instead. Reward her. Continue for a few days.

 

Hopefully, Nel will start to associate the leash with non-stressful things, like having you sit there quietly and receiving treats. The key is that you don't put the leash on her during these sessions. Just have it there, and visible.

 

Next step is to put the leash on her. Sit quietly as before. When Nel approaches you, calmly reach out and clip the leash on her (this is where a nylon leash is much better than a chain). Don't say anything, don't make any other movements. Reward her if she is calm (or even if she doesn't become submissive). Let her wear the leash without taking her for a walk - let her drag it around all day if she's not too anxious about it. Repeat this day after day, until she is comfortable with you putting the leash on.

 

I noticed that when you put the leash on her, you reached for her and she became submissive. She did NOT like you reaching for her! I'd stop doing that immediately. Kneel down and let her come to you. Touch her gently, calmly take her collar in your hand - but don't just walk up to her, bend over and grab for her. That is very intimidating to her, and she's telling you as much by acting as she does.

 

I think Nel can overcome her issues if you start listening to what she's telling you. You obviously have a bond with her, but there are many things that you do which are intimidating and scary for Nel. Respect that, and cut it out. I commend you for hanging in there and wanting to help her. She's lucky to have someone who loves her so much. Love isn't enough though - now it's time to make some big changes and do the work.

[beachdogz]

Regarding the choker chain, this 'was' a necessity, when we first took her on, the first walk out she slipped the collar on a walk with my wife, i was at work, my wife was in pieces as she knew how much she meant to me, and she sprinted away from my wife and took around 1/2 hour to find.

 

What a beautiful dog!

 

FYI- You can get a "choker" or slip collar in nylon. And you can get one called a "martingale", which is a flat, wide nylon collar that tightens, but with 3 rings, not two. I also believe the chain lead and chain choke is a bad choice for a dog as submissive as this. I also have had dogs that were flight risks when first brought home, and I have used both a nylon choke and a nylon martingale for those dogs. Works well, and not as intimidating. You can get a leather or nylon lead and either would be a better choice. As voiced in other posts, you do need to work on the method of putting the collar and leash on.

 

I can see where she would be a submissive urinator...but some of the things that trigger that behavior are: 1. using a high pitched voice 2. bending over the dog 3. reaching over or toward the dog from above the dog and 4. a harsh, loud voice. No voice (preferred) or low calm voice and almost ignoring the dog until the dog approaches you is the recommended way to deal with submissive urination.

 

I think she's a great dog. So I hope you will not be offended by the following:

 

You have had her 2-3 years. I can only speculate from what you have written that when you brought her home, you simply gave her freedom of your home, which resulted in destruction and ruining your carpet. You said that one time you brought her in and thought she was sleeping next to your bed...but your wife said that she ran up and down the steps all night. Once again, free run of the house? My dogs are all well trained in the house, and yet, I have a baby gate up in the bedroom to prevent them from running through the house all night while sleeping. I see no reason why this girl can't be adjusted to your home. She needs to be crate trained and confined to areas of the house, along with working with the submissive urination. This may also be difficult if you have young children that while playing with her may set off the urination. But after watching the video, I really don't see why this girl can't be brought into a home and adjust....it just needs to be done methodically and done the right way. Contacting a behaviorist...or even a good obedience instructor who has dealt with sensitive, submissive dogs, would be a good way to give you the information you need to bring her into the home (if that is what you want.) I hope you do...it is obvious that you care a lot about her, and I think you are missing out on having a wonderful family dog in your home.

[geonni banner]

I just want to say that having had a lot of experience with long-haired dogs and leash work, I do not recommend a nylon or leather choke. Over time, and even at first, they do not release quickly or at all when the tension is let off the lead. They tend to become entangled in the dog's hair and just don't move freely like a chain choke.

 

That said, I don't think a choke is a good choice for this dog. A martingale, properly adjusted would serve the same purpose - security from slipping her collar - and so would a harness. A choke collar requires a handler who has excellent timing and a thorough knowledge of the techniques involved. I have spent hundreds of hours working dogs on choke chains. It's as good a tool as any, but requires more skill than most to be used both humanely and effectively.

[Gloria Atwater]

I see some wonderful advice here.

 

The first thing I noticed in the video of you catching Nel is that she is horribly upset by the act of getting caught. To her, getting caught is a terrifying and unpleasant thing - possibly to due with her past?

 

So, to echo MommaLove's post, I'd say the first thing to do is change the catching ritual. When you go to catch Nel - don't catch her. Sit down on the ground, don't tower over her. Call her softly, not in a play voice or an inviting-fun voice, but a soft, gentle voice. Coax her gently, and when she comes, don't reach for her. Let her come to you. Offer up your hand, pet her, and if she gets twitchy, let her go back in the dog house again. (Yes, it's a matter of US vs UK - we call that a dog house. ) Then start over. Call her, offer your hand, let her come to you. Let her rest beside you and just pet her. This will take time.

 

When you finally try to catch her, again, do not bend or lean over her. Stay sitting beside her. If she rolls over on her back, remove your hand. Wait some more. Let her rest beside you some more. Again, don't lean over her. Just offer your hand with the lead and slip it on. If she starts to roll over, stop again. Repeat. Keep doing this, offering your hand, inviting her presence, petting her, until she stops rolling over.

 

And keep Sam away at this time. He's a happy boy, but he's raising the energy level and that can contribute to her stress. What you need to do is completely soften this moment, (voice, your presence, the energy around her) until she's willing to come to you and not fall over on her back.

 

She may associate being caught with punishment. I do think dogs are capable of having something like Post Traumatic Stress from a bad start, so by calling her and leaning over her and fitting that leash on her, she may be just going back to an old fear of being caught. It doesn't matter that you've never hurt her - she may have never learned how to dis-associate that fear, because the movements of being caught have never changed.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

I don't doubt that her anxiety goes over the top while in the house. She does look wonderfully relaxed and stable out in the open, but I also see a very high level of anxiety in her body language in general. If you can get video of her in the house, that would be good for us to see.

 

I think you said you tried a crate in the house, but it didn't work. What happened when you tried it? Unless we're again having a confusion of terms. I think what most of us are thinking is just a wire or molded plastic dog house (kennel) made for indoors use, which she can relax in as her "den," while she's in the house.

 

If she's pacing and jumping all over while indoors, then she's stressed by that environment. I noted in my last post the many factors of being in the house that could stress her, even if you don't see them as stressful: TV noises, loud conversations, children playing, cupboards, doors or stairs banging, phone ringing, music playing, etc. By giving her free run of your house, you're inadvertently keeping her from finding a means to put herself at peace.

 

From what you say, she does not have a place in your house where she feels calm or secure, like she does in her kennel/dog house outside. That's why we're suggesting a crate or box she can go to and hide, like she does in her kennel/dog house outside. But if you did try a crate and it failed, can you tell us about that?

 

~ Gloria

 

 

I watched only the first two videos, because my children interrupted me. I'll go back again later to see the others.

 

I noticed in the first video, Nel seems intimidated by your tone of voice. With my children, I need to use a soft, calm tone of voice when they feel scared. Could it be the same for Nel? Using a higher pitch can get an already nervous dog feeling even more stressed. Try speaking to her very softly and calmly, maybe even in a whisper for a little while, and see how she responds.

 

I also noticed that you use a chain for a lead. When my Coby came to live here, he also had a chain for a lead. He HATED wearing that thing, because the extra weight was just very unpleasant for him. He's not a nervous dog at all! He was much happier when I switched to a lightweight nylon lead.

 

A few thoughts on getting Nel's leash on her -

 

Right now, Nel has a negative association with the leash, for whatever reason. When she sees you coming with it, she gets nervous. Your goal is to get her comfortable with the leash. This is a situation in which I would use a click-treat sequence, but you can do the same kind of thing without the clicker. Sit quietly on the ground near Nel's dog house. Don't look at her. Don't call her to you. Don't speak to her. Put the leash on the ground beside you. Ignore Nel. If she approaches you, give her a small treat and then continue to ignore her. Do this for several days.

 

After a few days, sit with the leash across your lap rather than beside you. Keep rewarding Nel for approaching. DO NOT reward submissive behaviour - just ignore it!

 

When Nel will approach you with the leash on your lap, start holding it in your hand instead. Reward her. Continue for a few days.

 

Hopefully, Nel will start to associate the leash with non-stressful things, like having you sit there quietly and receiving treats. The key is that you don't put the leash on her during these sessions. Just have it there, and visible.

 

Next step is to put the leash on her. Sit quietly as before. When Nel approaches you, calmly reach out and clip the leash on her (this is where a nylon leash is much better than a chain). Don't say anything, don't make any other movements. Reward her if she is calm (or even if she doesn't become submissive). Let her wear the leash without taking her for a walk - let her drag it around all day if she's not too anxious about it. Repeat this day after day, until she is comfortable with you putting the leash on.

 

I noticed that when you put the leash on her, you reached for her and she became submissive. She did NOT like you reaching for her! I'd stop doing that immediately. Kneel down and let her come to you. Touch her gently, calmly take her collar in your hand - but don't just walk up to her, bend over and grab for her. That is very intimidating to her, and she's telling you as much by acting as she does.

 

I think Nel can overcome her issues if you start listening to what she's telling you. You obviously have a bond with her, but there are many things that you do which are intimidating and scary for Nel. Respect that, and cut it out. I commend you for hanging in there and wanting to help her. She's lucky to have someone who loves her so much. Love isn't enough though - now it's time to make some big changes and do the work.

[mum24dog]

Regarding the choker chain, this 'was' a necessity, when we first took her on, the first walk out she slipped the collar on a walk with my wife, i was at work, my wife was in pieces as she knew how much she meant to me, and she sprinted away from my wife and took around 1/2 hour to find.

 

She then slipped the collar with me, and i decided from there on that i would only take her out with a choker chain on, i would rather have that and it look cruel than to have her end up under the wheels of a car.

 

It's not so much that it looks cruel as that it could be causing her more stress and making lead walking more unpleasant than it already is for her. I can remember a time when the majority of dogs wore them (a long time ago) but they are not often seen nowadays in this country as there are so many more comfortable options on the market.

 

Our BC was a Houdini getting out of collars and it took a while to find a harness that he couldn't wriggle out of but we found one. We never have nor ever would use a choke chain because of the pain and potential physical damage they can cause but if Nel doesn't actually pull (as she doesn't in the vids) and you don't jerk her on it that wouldn't be so much of a concern.

 

I keep a slip lead in the car for when I find lost dogs - a rope one. I have used it on ours occasionally for convenience but only on those that wouldn't pull into it. I agree that they don't release as well as a chain but since I don't use them that way it doesn't matter. They have their uses as a quick way of getting a lead on and off a dog that doesn't like anyone fiddling with its neck.

 

I understand though that getting a harness on her could be well nigh impossible. It was with ours but we managed it in the end and he now volunteers to have it on. It has the benefit of giving him a feeling of security too.

 

Geonni banner suggested a martingale collar which would be a good compromise.

 

This is a martingale -

 

http://www.collarsandwoofs.co.uk/shop/page/5?shop_param=

 

Also called a half check here but those will have a piece of chain to tighten rather than nylon or fabric. For Nel I would suggest the non chain type. Either way the collar should never tighten beyond the point where the D rings touch.

 

If a martingale is secure enough for a small headed sight hound not to get out of, it should work for a BC as long as you spot the moment she starts thinking about trying to back out of it and prevent her. You have to be on the ball as they can be so quick as I'm sure you've found.

[mum24dog]

This is a situation in which I would use a click-treat sequence, but you can do the same kind of thing without the clicker.

 

So would I but I'm not sure it would be worth the risk of adding one more thing that might add to her list of scary things at present. Maybe best to avoid using a clicker with this one, I think, especially as I assume BCS isn't skilled ion their use.

 

I agree with the rest of your post though.

[MommaLove]

So would I but I'm not sure it would be worth the risk of adding one more thing that might add to her list of scary things at present. Maybe best to avoid using a clicker with this one, I think, especially as I assume BCS isn't skilled ion their use.

 

I agree with the rest of your post though.

 

I agree - best not to add a clicker to the mix just yet.

 

I also want to add to my previous advice - I think some basic obedience training, done very slowly and gently in addition to many of the other suggestions, could do a lot to help Nel. In my experience with Juno, who was very shy when we brought her home, having some structure and knowing what was expected of her went a long way to boosting her confidence. Simple things like sitting and waiting at an open door puts some control on a situation - the dog feels more secure because they are not allowed to simply dash through, and it gives them a moment to transition from one location/situation to the next. Just as my shy, nervous daughter thrives when there is structure in place, so do many anxious dogs. It takes some pressure off to have someone else calmly in charge - like, "Hey, don't worry, you don't need to make every decision on your own. I'm here to guide you."

 

Edit to add: Also, ROUTINE! Crating goes a long way in establishing a routine. For my dogs, the start and end of their days are always the same. Morning, everyone is released from their crates and taken outside to pee. We have a game of fetch and the dogs romp & play together. I do the farm chores, and Juno accompanies me & helps out where she can. Then we go about our day, and in the evening, all the dogs have their dinners, have their nighttime pee break, and retire to their crates for the night. Having a routine in place gives everyone a structure that allows for confidence - they know what to expect, and they know I'll take care of things. I think Nel could benefit greatly from a highly structured day.

[mum24dog]

Having a routine in place gives everyone a structure that allows for confidence - they know what to expect, and they know I'll take care of things. I think Nel could benefit greatly from a highly structured day.

 

So do I.

 

With my own dogs I prefer not to have too rigid a routine as it gives me more flexibility in how and when I do things and variation doesn't worry them, but it's undeniable that it can greatly assist an insecure dog.

 

Back to Ross - training simple tasks helped his confidence enormously. You could see the light bulb go on - eyes shining as he was thinking the canine equivalent of "I know this one". It works still in his semi senile state. A completely different dog when he knows exactly what is expected of him which it seems Nel doesn't in the house.

 

Train her to do things when relaxed out and about and transfer them eventually to the garden and then the house.

 

Predictability and clarity versus uncertainty and confusion.

[terrecar]

I agree with Geonni and Mum24dog on this as well. A properly fitted martingale prevents the dog from slipping its collar, but doesn't continue to tighten around the throat. Watching the video, I noticed the dog was mostly at the end of a taut lead. If she is already uncomfortable with a collar and lead, a choke collar may cause additional tension (pun not intended) in the dog. I used a martingale on Hannah because she never really needed a choke, although I didn't take the latter option off the table.

[mum24dog]

I noticed the dog was mostly at the end of a taut lead.

 

I don't see that in the 1st video. Most of the time there is still a bit of play in the lead, the collar position doesn't change and her body posture doesn't look to me like she is pulling against the lead. She gives me the impression that she hesitates as she gets to the end because it has been unpleasant in the past.

 

Maybe our perceptions of "taut" differ a little. To me it means considerable pressure on the lead as the dog pulls against the holder.

 

Admittedly the 2nd video shows a lead that is more taut. Maybe she is getting more excited as they near the place where she expects to be let off.

[terrecar]

I don't see that in the 1st video. Most of the time there is still a bit of play in the lead, the collar position doesn't change and her body posture doesn't look to me like she is pulling against the lead. She gives me the impression that she hesitates as she gets to the end because it has been unpleasant in the past.

 

Maybe our perceptions of "taut" differ a little. To me it means considerable pressure on the lead as the dog pulls against the holder.

 

Admittedly the 2nd video shows a lead that is more taut. Maybe she is getting more excited as they near the place where she expects to be let off.

 

I was referring to the 3rd video here: Video 3. But you may be right that our perceptions simply differ.

 

(Edited to remove the inappropriate use of the word "converse"; what was I thinking? Clearly, I was not...)

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi All,

 

I've finally managed to get Nel a proper Kennel run as pictured on this website:-

 

http://www.ukdogshopdirect.com/collections/kennels-run-panels/products/50x50-mesh-dog-run-galvanised-panels

 

I've purchased 10 x panels, each one is 1.84m long and 1.5m high, therefore will be a nice size for her to have a bit of freedom whilst we are at work and we know she will be secure.

 

One of the panels is a 'gate end'.

 

They are pretty strong, they bolt together.

 

However, my question is this:- What do you suggest i use for the roofing? I need something which i can get on and off quickly, but something which is also going to be strong enough that she cant get off and the wind won't blow off. I intend on putting her wooden dog house in there at one end, so she has somewhere to retreat, but also can come out and have a walk around. But i need to get in there to clean up after her and hose down, and at 1.5m high its not going to be possible with a fixed roof.....

 

Any ideas anybody?

[Gloria Atwater]

How funny that they make kennel panels that aren't tall enough for people to walk into! The differences between the UK and the US are sometimes amusing.

 

Hm ... could you make something hinged, like a wooden lid or a metal roof on a wood frame? Then perhaps you could fasten it at once end against wind, and still be able to flip one end of the "lid" up and hose down the entire area.

 

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

I don't have any constructive ideas but want to commend you for making such an effort to make it work for Nel. She certainly is in a place where she is cared for, and I think many people would have given up on her, but you haven't.

 

Give both Nel and Sam a pat!

[SS Cressa]

Maybe I am picturing it wrong but it sounds like an xpen. Have you looked into xpen lids?

 

Ex: http://65.38.113.194/category/default.aspx?maincatid=32&subcat=6&submenu=0&catid=36

 

We used to own a 10 panel xpen. About 4 feet tall. That had a gate. If that is what you have you will need to buy an xtra panel for the xpen lid.

 

You can clip it on and so far no dog has escaped it. I have a jumper and my sister have some escape artist... so far no problem

[terrecar]

I don't think it's an X-pen because these panels bolt together and are apparently just under 5 feet high. X-pens usually have hinged clasps between the panels for easy folding. I think the panels in that UK link are similar to what I have set up outside as a play yard for the Chihuahuas: http://www.walmart.c...e-Dogs/10811483

I have to bend down in order to get inside of this kennel, though they make larger models. Mine is 4'X4' by 8 ft long. The top, which is made specifically for the kennel, survived hurricane Sandy in Maryland.

 

I would first ask the seller for suggestions. Maybe there is a roof made for it?

 

Some things to keep in mind:

 

Roofing tin would not be good for a dog afraid of storms (think sounds of rain pelting the roof, magnified exponentially)

 

For sun blocking, 80% sunscreen fabric of the kind made for kennel tops is helpful to protect from sun exposure but not rain or snow

 

If the roof is not slanted, you have the problem of rain water and snow building up, and therefore possible collapse, depending on the material

 

Since the kennel is not very tall, if you use a tarp roof make sure there is plenty of ventilation if the kennel is set between walls (not sure about your setup)

 

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the UK, so I am not sure what is available or what the cost factor would be. I have seen a kennel top made from a build-it- yourself wood frame that fits over the top edges, with cross beams to prevent collapse and a tarp fastened onto it. It was made on a slant to prevent snow buildup. I also saw one similar with corrugated fiberglass roofing fixed to it (a little better than the tin).The do-it-yourself model was CAREFULLY MADE to prevent any possibility of collapse and injury to the dog (!)

 

These are my preferred type: http://www.k9kennels...Top-Covers.html

 

ETA: The roof I have on my kennel lifts off once you remove a few bolts. Since I have taken it down and put it up, I know it really wouldn't be much of an issue to remove it... If I were not hovering close enough to 5 feet to be able to get in and clean the kennel, that is

[juliepoudrier]

How funny that they make kennel panels that aren't tall enough for people to walk into! The differences between the UK and the US are sometimes amusing.

~ Gloria

 

I have a 10 x 10 chain link kennel here, which I borrowed from Robin, that is maybe 4' tall. Definitely not tall enough to stand up in. So they do make them in the US.

 

BCS,

I put wire across the top of the kennel to keep the guard dog that was in it from climbing out. Because the wire (2" x 4" welded wire, maybe 5' tall, don't remember now) was not wide enough to cover the entire kennel, I "stitched" it together in the center, using cable ties. I ended up with overlapped pieces of wire, and I used the cable ties to connect them in the middle and then to prevent the edges (the top ends of the wire) from gapping (that's probably not very clear--the gap issue wasn't because the dog could get out, since it was all connected where the two strips of wire met at the center,but just to keep the overlapping edges from sagging).

 

I don't think there's going to be an easy solution if you want to be able to stand up inside but also don't want Nel climbing over. I do have to bend over to go in the kennel here, but that's a minor inconvenience if the alternative is the dog getting out.

 

I think Gloria's idea of some sort of hinged roof would work--you could build a wooden frame to go around the kennel, attach the roof to that, and then just lift it when you need to stand up in the kennel. A solid roof, sloped to drain rain, snow, etc., would give Nel a dry, shaded place to stay without having to get in her dog house to get out of the weather. I made a similar set up for a taller kennel and then used it as a chicken pen.

 

Here are some examples of the typical weather proof-type covers you could find here in the US.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Julie, geez, you are correct - I helped a friend move a small 4-foot tall chain link kennel just two weeks ago! So, I think I'll just go blush over here in the corner.

 

(Can I blame being out of town and having road-fuzz on the brain?)

 

~ Gloria

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi All,

 

I've nearly got it done.

 

Decided to put a pitched roof on it so that i can get in and out of it, i've put it down the side of the house behind our garage, its an area that rarely gets used and is therefore ideal and doesn't take up anyspace in the rear garden. Also its on a hard surface so she won't be able to borrow under the side and get out.....

 

Here are some pics, as said not quite finished yet.

 

Notice Nel having a stretch in the photo, its been quite amusing, she's been checking it out, she's been in and out of her dog house and keeping an eye on what i'm doing, its almost as though she's thinking 'so they think i won't be able to get out of that do they?' I'm sure she's been doing a 'reccy' and has found a way out of it before i even start, i'm sure she's one step ahead of me with everything i do!!

 

 

 

 

[Sue R]

Golly, that looks great! Lucky Nel to be with your family.

[gcv-border]

Bang up job on the roof! I am sure Nel will like it.

 

Jovi

[juliepoudrier]

I'm impressed! I hope Nel is too.

 

J.