Nel

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi All,

 

I guess i'm looking for a bit of advise.

 

I haven't been on these boards for a long time, although some of you may remember me, i have two Border Collies, Sam who is a boy (some of you may remember Sam with the Rabbits ? ) who is the offspring of two working dogs on a Farm in Wales, I have had Sam since 6 weeks old and he is fine, and the other i have is a female, who the Farmer (once i got to know him - i kept in touch with him) asked if i wanted the Female, as he can't do anything with her, she was another working dog on the farm, she was scared as hell, and i said yeah we will have her, he then said that he paid a lot of money for her as she has come from a strong working line, and will give her another lambing season and see if she comes around, she didn't, he then texted me and asked us if we wanted her and i travelled another 5 hours drive to collect her as well!

 

When we collected her from him, she was covered in sheep poo, her breath stunk, she had been killing and eating the sheep at night whilst he was in his house asleep, and she had a fresh bloody wound accross her nose.

 

We have had Nel for about 2-3 years now (approx) and when i first got her she wouldn't come near any of us, she hid under the table in our dining room, if you tried to take her out for a walk and walked towards her with the lead, she would turn over on her back and wet everywhere, but later on she came around, and when i came in from work she would run up to me and jump up and make a fuss of me, but she still had the problem of turning over on her back when you tried to get her out of the house for a walk and wet.

 

Things have gradually got better, she no longer turns over on her back and wets when i approach her, whenever she turns over on her back, i make a fuss of her and run and tickle her belly, however she has caused a lot of problems for us, she has made a severe mess of our house, she has eaten the leather couch, wet all over the lounge carpet, we have replaced the flooring with wooden flooring, she has also wet all over the stairs and landing carpet, which we have had to remove and throw away and replace.

 

She therefore lives in a kennel in our garden which was fine for a while, however whenever it starts to rain, or thunder, she leaps a 5 ft high fence and runs about 2-3 miles away, luckily i know where she goes, it was a guess the first time, its an area i thought she would run to which is on one of our walks, in the hills of the North Downs, in the middle of Corn Fields, however i've been up there to get her at 23:00hrs in the black dark, which isn't any fun.

 

She also jumped the fence once when i was at work, and the Dog Warden returned her, and cost us £25.00.

 

I then decided to chain her up, however she manages (i don't know how) to get her collar off, so we put the collar on tighter, she can't get it off anymore, however now she has found a way to release the clip on the chain which attaches to the collar, which is a proper dog clip!! At first we thought it was one of our daughters releasing it, however i checked on her the other evening at about 23:30, she was chained up properly, both our children were asleep in bed, but the following morning she had released it and was standing and the back door waiting to get in.

 

Also, the chain keeps getting wrapped around itself and then becomes shorter.

 

I guess i'm looking for any suggestions or advise on how to make things better for the both of us, getting rid of her isnt an option, i'm attached to her and think the world of her, but things must improve.

 

I'm thinking of relacing the fence with a higher one, however this will cost over £1000.00!

 

This is Nel, when she was on the farm, she is the one on the far left sitting.

 

 

And this is Sam

 

[mum24dog]

Comfortable kennel with things to do surrounded by a secure metal dog run with a roof. Give her a hideaway withing the kennel for times of extreme stress like thunderstorms, which we fortunately don't get many of. I have a thunderphobic dog that is best left to himself in a covered crate.

 

And plenty of training and interaction with you.

 

Fencing isn't going to keep her in, especially as low as 5ft, and as you are finding a chain is potentially dangerous and certainly not pleasant for the dog for long periods.

 

Did you have to pay for her? Why did the farmer pass on a sheep killer? It's not as if there's anywhere in the country where there aren't sheep within a few miles and if he wanted rid to protect his own sheep he was putting others at potential risk. I'll take on dogs with all sorts of problems but I'm afraid a history of killing sheep would be a deal breaker for me. I couldn't have a dog that had to be kept away from sheep and never allowed freedom. My dogs have to be under control when there are sheep around, which is most of the time when we are out of the house, and I don't want to be on edge all the time. I do know people who successfully manage sheep killers by keeping them on lead at all times and secure at home but it just isn't for me.

 

Chasing sheep because it's fun is one thing that can probably be trained out but going in for the kill could be a different matter. The full predatory sequence is eye - stalk - chase - catch/bite - kill - devour. BCs are bred for a truncated sequence that shouldn't include the last 3, although occasional gripping may be allowed in certain circumstances. Killing and eating isn't just a fun game that got out of hand, if you are sure that is what she was doing. Could it be that she didn't do the killing herself and was just scavenging?

 

It's a hard fact and sorry to sound brutal but most sheep killers are shot here if they are seen and if she can get out it's on the cards that might happen to her. Even dogs that innocently find themselves among sheep are at risk since many farmers don't give them the benefit of the doubt. I can't stress the danger enough.

 

Some will no doubt recommend a shock collar to deter her from being interested in sheep but you should be aware that they are already illegal in Wales (with a heavy fine or even prison for offenders) and a ban is under consideration in England and Scotland. Yes, they can work but, ethics aside, they can also have unwanted repercussions both physical and behavioural.

 

Have a read of this -

 

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing

 

If she really is a killer the first thing you need to do is to stop her wanting to chase.

 

Good for you for not getting rid of her at the first sign of problems though. It's a sadly common story that failed sheepdogs in this country are often unsocialised, afraid of men in particular and not house trained. Not always, of course; I know dogs that have been perfectly suited to a domestic life from day 1, but it's something I would be prepared for.

 

Good luck anyway since you are clearly committed to her.

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Pam, thanks for your reply.

 

Nel has a 2 piece kennel, it has the main opening which is big enough for her to lay in, which has her food and water, but also has another room off of that which she can hide in and that area has bedding material in it.

 

She isn't a dog that plays, she's too scared, although I've got her 'sometimes' to start chasing after a ball in the back garden, but then its as though she realises what she's doing and stops running after it and instead runs back to me and either sits by my feet or turns onto her back.

 

The farmer didn't tell us she was 'killing' the sheep, only that she was eating dead sheep, its me that's but two and two together, for example how would the dead sheep cone about, also she is a really pleasant lovely dog who would never hurt any human, she really is so gentle, however sometimes Sam has got a little carried away before and chased after her when I let her off the lead for a run through the fields, and he chases and starts to play fight, and she turns another side on and is like a Wilde fox snarling and teeth out like a warewolf and scares the living daylights out of him, she chases him whilst she is like it in a fury.

 

Also, when we first started keeping her outside, she broke into the rabbit hutch which was about 3-4 ft off the ground and smashed the front in, the wire, and managed to get the rabbit out and he was as bald with no hair left and all bloody, we thought he was dead, but my wife brought him in the house, cleaned him up, and comforted him and within a couple of months he was fine, but he is now a 100% house rabbit!!

 

So, reading between the lines, this is what I have assumed.

 

As said, she is a lovely dog, but very strong willed, obcessed with things, I.e. she won't leave us alone when she is in the house, she is constantly on top of us, and when we try and ignore her, she sits there staring at us really strongly with her eyes, without blinking, and stairs us out!

 

I've always had Border Collies throughut my life, and love their personalities and obcessiveness, and I have no intention of letting her go, but as my wife has said, she is mentally scared........

[bcnewe2]

So Sorry for you but mainly for Nel.

I wasn't to worried about the sheep killing part since you didn't say anything about it since you had her home with you but then you say she almost killed your bunny. since the bunny didn't' die instantly I'm inclined to think she's not really a killer just harasses them to their end.

 

Sounds like she has separation anxiety and is thunder phobic too. Not sure what type meds they give dogs where you live but if she were mine I'd try to address those two issues with medicine then back to training. I had an extremely fearful dog. I just kept up working with her and over the years she lost most of her fear.

 

I really think Nel sounds like she would be helped by some anti-anxiety drugs. It might help her come out of her shell.

I have a feeling that she was beaten by the farmer for "killing" his sheep. Not something I can blame the man for but it has left her extremely submissive without addressing the true issues.

 

So sorry she has so destroyed your house. I hope you replaced the carpet with something less damageable. Just a thought, was the damage due to her rolling over and peeing or could she possibly have an UTI (bladder infection or urinary track infection). I can relate to ruined floors. My living room was a beautiful hard wood floor till we moved in. I had 2 old dogs that had accidents. it's ruined now. If I get a chance I will put laminate down, that stuff is indestructible!

 

Good luck and if possible seek some professional help ASAP. You aren't doing her or your family any good with management that isn't working for both parties.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with the advice to try antianxiety drugs. I also think it would be nicer for Nel if you could put a roof on her kennel run (so she can't climb out). It sounds like she has a good house to hide in if bad weather comes, so really what you need to concentrate on is preventing her getting out of a kennel run. It will take some work on your part, but given all that you've already done, I'm guessing you'd be willing to do a bit more.

 

So, put a top on the kennel run so she can't climb out. Ideally a solid top, sloped for drainage, as it will also protect her from sun and rain even if she chooses not to go in her house. If there's a chance that she's a digger, then consider either adding fence embedded in the ground at the bottom of the kennel run and perhaps gravel along the inside and outside to discourage digging.

 

Be sure that the latch on the kennel gate is dog proof, perhaps using something like a carbiner in the slot where one would put a locking device, as she's unlikely to be able to open something like that.

 

Re-reading your post, I'm wondering if by kennel you mean house and the 5-ft fence she leapt was actually your garden fence. If that's the case, then I need to clarify that by kennel run, I mean an enclosure within your garden, typically made of chain link or similar material, that usually comes in a size like 10' x 10' x 6'.

 

For example:

Priefert kennel

 

or

 

typical chain link kennel

 

If you find a well-made sturdy kennel similar to one of these, then you can put a roof on (not one of those shade tarps, but an actual solid roof that she can't destroy or climb past), and secure the bottom to prevent digging and she would have a safe, secure place to stay when no one is home to keep an eye on her.

 

Given the choice between a chain and a kennel like those above, I think a dog would be much happier in the kennel run.

 

P.S. If she hasn't been harassing sheep the times she's escaped then I wouldn't worry about her being a sheep killer. Many dogs will worry prey animals to death without actually intending to kill them. But since you don't know, of course it's better to keep her contained so that she doesn't have the opportunity to do damage and possibly get herself shot.

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

I was thinking the separation anxiety that she seems to display might be aggravated by being kept outside without her family.

If you get the issues under control with meds the submissive peeing might go away or get to a manageable point and then I would think she'd be a whole lot happier back in the house with the rest of the family.

[Jumpin Boots]

I think you have gotten some great advice. Is there a way you could put a crate in the house by the garden door that Nel could go into at night or if the weather got stormy. That way she would begin to feel like 'part of the family' It would also help with establishing a routine. As well as you not having to worry about her taking off in the middle of the night. I think the roof on the kennel is a great suggestion too, not just for security but also for safety.

 

Virbac produces a product called Anxitane; we have several clients who have used it and been pleased; if I remember correctly Virbac is a French company so you may be able to get it on that side of the pond.

 

I also agree with her not being a 'killer' but a 'play to deather' A dog that is a true 'killer' is going to take care of a rabbit with one shake of their head.

 

Best of luck to you. And good to see picts of Sam, he looks great!

[Notorious]

What I've noticed with all my dogs through out my life is that sometimes the best thing to do is make them face their fears. Eventually they get over it. They just have to learn its ok. They may stress for a while, but it's better for the long term. If she doesn't want to chase the ball leash her and walk her to it put it in her mouth and walk back over and over and over. She's gotta learn that whether she's scared or not she has to trust you to not put her in a position to get hurt. take her to a dog park let the dogs bring he out of her shell. When dogs chase her jump in front of them and take the hit. It teaches them to know that you'll protect them and it's ok.

[mum24dog]

Nel has a 2 piece kennel, it has the main opening which is big enough for her to lay in, which has her food and water, but also has another room off of that which she can hide in and that area has bedding material in it.

 

Very small and preferably covered would probably make her feel more secure. She would probably be better with a proper run as well though.

 

She isn't a dog that plays, she's too scared, although I've got her 'sometimes' to start chasing after a ball in the back garden, but then its as though she realises what she's doing and stops running after it and instead runs back to me and either sits by my feet or turns onto her back.

 

I wouldn't try to get her to do anything - give her the opportunity to decide for herself when she is ready. Forcing the issue by trying to jolly her along can cause pressure and make her shut down. One of mine was every bit a bad as you describe but eventually became ball mad. He used to wee in fear if anyone so much as looked at him and it took a long time before he got over it. I often felt that even though he was obsessively clingy with me, he would have benefitted from some time outside away from the stresses of living in a house.

 

Personally, I would only use drugs for a dog that was so anxious that it couldn't learn and respond to training or behavioural modification. They aren't a cure and IMO should be used in such circumstances to give a window of opportunity to start the real rehabilitation work. I'm not sure that Nel is that bad from what you have written.

 

Also bear in mind that most general vets know next to nothing about behaviour and could prescribe medication inappropriately.

 

The farmer didn't tell us she was 'killing' the sheep, only that she was eating dead sheep, its me that's but two and two together, for example how would the dead sheep cone about

 

My dogs find dead sheep all the time. Most have probably been drowned by the incoming tide but we find them up in the hills as well. Cedar (no apparent predatory instincts whatsoever) caught wind of one last week while up in the Lakes and took off across a bog to roll in it and eat what he could. This is a dog that can catch a bird in his mouth and release it unharmed.

 

Also, when we first started keeping her outside, she broke into the rabbit hutch which was about 3-4 ft off the ground and smashed the front in, the wire, and managed to get the rabbit out and he was as bald with no hair left and all bloody, we thought he was dead

 

Attacking one species doesn't mean that she would attack larger prey. All mine would kill a cat or squirrel if they got the chance (contagious behaviour stemming back to my first dog - a lurcher). One kills rabbits but even my jack russell can take or leave them. None has ever shown any interest in harming a sheep.

 

As said, she is a lovely dog, but very strong willed, obcessed with things, I.e. she won't leave us alone when she is in the house, she is constantly on top of us, and when we try and ignore her, she sits there staring at us really strongly with her eyes, without blinking, and stairs us out!

 

Of course - she's a collie, and a bitch.

[mum24dog]

I have a feeling that she was beaten by the farmer for "killing" his sheep.

 

More likely she's been treated badly for being a poor worker. If he really thought she'd killed the chances are she wouldn't still be here.

 

On the other hand, it might just be the way she is and there may be no specific reason for it.

[juliepoudrier]

More likely she's been treated badly for being a poor worker. If he really thought she'd killed the chances are she wouldn't still be here.

 

On the other hand, it might just be the way she is and there may be no specific reason for it.

Agreed.

 

A note on drug therapy: Most people when they recommend drugs do so with the understanding that those meds are just *one part* of a behavior modification program and not a solution in and of themselves to a dog's behavioral problem(s).

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

That's why I put italics round the killing part.

And yes I've seen dogs like this without having trama based exeriences. But i'll bet you it was more that treating her bad if she was coming in the morning all bloody.

And I totally agree with behavior modifications but not many help with thunder phobia. But the seperation anxiety could totally be worked with.

 

Now to stay off here. Had some surgery today. Loopy is what I am so excuse me if I'm off.

[mum24dog]

And I totally agree with behavior modifications but not many help with thunder phobia.

 

At the age of 5 months while Cedar was in the second fear period we were caught out in a very loud thunderstorm and from then on he panicked at thunder and generalised his fear to fireworks, gunshots, bird scarers and just about any sort of bang. Fear of fireworks really kicked in when our neighbours let some off in their garden just as he went out for a last wee one night.

 

He is now 9 and whilst he isn't 100% happy with those noises he is much better as long as he has a den he can retreat to. On 5th November and at New Year he doesn't even hide. At one time he would have bolted.

 

The improvement started when we went to a series of agility shows a few years ago where there were bird scarers in the distance and he got used to them.

 

Now if he is worried I acknowledge it, reassure him and we move on. I wish I could take credit for doing more but I can't beyond recognising what he needs to make himself feel better. I don't think the little classical conditioning I did to change his perception of scary noises when I got the chance would have made a huge contribution - I should have done more to speed the process.

 

To succeed with any behaviour modification plan the dog must be in the right frame of mind. Unfortunately thunder phobia often induces panic which means that the dog is over threshhold and cannot learn so anyone who tries to modify the behaviour in that situation is doomed to failure. Drugs can help but so can working with the dog at times when it is sub threshhold and working up from there.

 

For me drugs would be a last resort and only to be prescribed by someone who knows what they are doing, not your average general vet with no behavioural training. Vets don't do a case study and rely on what the client tells them which is notoriously unreliable in most cases where the client doesn't understand what they are witnessing.

[bcnewe2]

He is now 9 and whilst he isn't 100% happy with those noises he is much better as long as he has a den he can retreat to. On 5th November and at New Year he doesn't even hide. At one time he would have bolted.

 

 

I am no professional but I've had lots of thunder phobic dogs. the degree has varied with each dog but I will tell you this, Dew is so bad I don't think anything or person could get her over it. We've worked out a safe spot for her but this is not something that I see ever going away.

I've had other dogs with milder phobias and they have been helped.

 

Nel sounds like a dog that wasn't raised quite right for her temperament. If she scales fences and runs to a certain place I think with a big of work she could find a hideyhole at home.

 

I wish the best for Nel. Be strong and keep on.

[juliepoudrier]

I am no professional but I've had lots of thunder phobic dogs. the degree has varied with each dog but I will tell you this, Dew is so bad I don't think anything or person could get her over it. We've worked out a safe spot for her but this is not something that I see ever going away.

I've had other dogs with milder phobias and they have been helped.

Agreed. I have dogs who get a bit nervous during a storm (and just hang close to me or go hide under a bed) and I have others who get quite panicky (one gets climb the walls panicky). Pam, you're lucky that your dog either became desensitized with little effort or simply grew out of it. Would that all thunderphobes were the same. IMO, a dog who bolts during a storm is the worst kind--they endanger themselves doubly by taking off (my panicky wall climber is one of these and in the summer months I have to be vigilant 24/7 if I let her out in the yard because thunder can happen any time and when it does, she'll bolt unless I'm right there. Bird cannons in the distance would elicit the same response.). Not all dogs like a hidey hole. I have one who does--just don't reach in while he's there or you'll get bit.

 

I understand that thunderstorms aren't as common in the UK as they are in summer in the American south, so that's a positive thing as far as Nel is concerned, but it takes just one escape and a "wrong turn" for a dog to end up dead.

 

It's true that the average vet may not know much about behavior issues, but if a vet behaviorist isn't easily accessible, I do believe it's possible to partner with a general practitioner vet to get the necessary information, consultations, etc., to intelligently use meds to help in a behavioral modification program. It of course takes commitment from the owner to do the right things and not view a drug as a panacea (and from the vet not to just dispense a drug and then wash his/her hands of the issue), but it *should be* possible to get that sort of help from a regular vet if a specialist isn't available. There are dogs who are truly helped by mediation-assisted behavioral modification (Melanie's Solo comes to mind, though she no longer posts here) and to dismiss that option as unnecessary doesn't make sense to me. Meds might have made the difference for the dog of a friend who killed himself trying to get out of a crate during a storm. If you've never dealt with a truly wildly panicking thunderphobic dog, you can't know how difficult it is and how meds can help, with or without behavioral modification.

 

 

I also agree with the folks who suggested that if you could crate her in the house in sight of her people, that would help. When she needs to be out and get some exercise and be safe, I still think a kennel run is probably a better option.

 

To BCS,

You mentioned in your original post that she had damaged a lot of flooring by urinating. Is all of that submissive/fear urination or was it never possible to truly housebreak her? If the former, you could also try some diaper type things that would contain the pee while she's in the house. Obviously you can't leave them on constantly, but it would enable you to let her in the house and work with her without worrying about ruination of floors and furniture....

 

J.

[Jexa]

I will second how much drugs can help a panicking dog. My brother's dog growing up was a lab/Aussie mix who literally ate a metal screen door during a thunderstorm. She also bolted from the yard, luckily her "safe" place was our front porch. She'd freak if the pressure even dropped. When we knew a storm was coming we'd drug her and crate her in the living room. She peacefully slept her way through the storm. Much healthier for her than eating a metal door/crate or bolting into a road.

[beachdogz]

I would also like to suggest a training class. A simple obedience class can help with behavior and also help to create a bond. It's hard to write everything....so maybe you omitted this....but your descriptions seemed to say that she lives in an outside kennel and is in the yard bonding with the family when they are outside (because her living inside the house did not work out.) From you description, a strong family bond seems to be lacking. I found obedience...and then agility...helped my adopted dog make breakthroughs in his life. He came to us not knowing how to play with balls or toys, and not knowing how (or not willing) to play with other dogs or people. Training has made a world of difference in his life. Training (or something like agility) also will give her a "job" to concentrate on, or a purpose other than getting loose and running. It took my first rescue almost two years to bond to us and overcome most of her issues. It took my second one a year to learn to play, and he is still learning to overcome his past. So I don't think that it is too late for your girl to learn to become a true member of your family. I applaud you for taking her in and not giving up on her....she is a lucky girl.

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi All,

 

Sorry for the late reply, some really good advice, I especially like those cage kennels, I didn't even.think about something like that, at the moment Nel as a wooden house type kennel, although I don't know if we can get them in the UK, but at the moment things are very tight financially with a lot if people in the uk, and those kennels are expensive! And we've still got to get carpet for the stairs, I know this might sound unfair and dangerous for.nel, but we've got two.children and the house must come first.

 

With regard to the training and other training topics mentioned, she is not in the right mindset to even consider training, I don't think you realise how bad she is, she is a complete nervous reck about everything, I will try and take some vids at the weekend to show you.

[BorderCollieSam]

P.s forgot to mention, I don't believe Nel has a urine infection, although it does really smell terrible.and I mean terrible when.she wets in the house, she wets whenever you walk towards her to try and take her out of the house for a walk, and also we went on holiday in July and Nel got into the house and spent the whole two weeks upstairs on the landing, luckily we had the bedroom doors closed, and she wouldn't come near my father in law, he is a really nice guy and house/dog sits for us when we are away and he's in his 70's, she wasn't eating or drinking and spent the while two weeks up there, when my father in law tries to talk to her to get hee to come down, she started wetting, so he left her hoping she would come down on her own which she didn't.....we noticed that she looked thin when we got home and the father in law told me what she was like, she may have come down the stairs to drink or eat when he was asleep asleep at night he doesn't know, but she wet and pood up there, she is really that bad of a nervous reck.....

[mum24dog]

With regard to the training and other training topics mentioned, she is not in the right mindset to even consider training, I don't think you realise how bad she is, she is a complete nervous reck about everything, I will try and take some vids at the weekend to show you.

 

I'm guessing there are people on here who can understand exactly how bad she is because they've been there - I certainly have.

 

Have you tried hand feeding her small amounts of something very tasty out of her bowl? You may need to drop it on the floor some way away from you if she won't come to you. Sit quietly either in a chair or on the floor side on to her; facing a dog and making eye contact is threatenening to a dog, as is bending over it. Don't reach out to her. It's what I had to do with Ross to get him to eat anything when he arrived.

 

Patience is what you need and not forcing her into anything before she is ready. If you don't know how to go about it get help or at the very least read this book that I think someone else mentioned -

 

http://www.alibris.co.uk/booksearch?qwork=974955

 

If you seek help then avoid the likes of Barkbusters, Jan Fennell, and Cesar Millan or anyone who mentions them favourably. The dog behaviour world is a minefield though and people are often not what they claim. First off I would suggest reading the book so you will have an idea of what to look for if you do need help from a trainer or behaviourist.

 

You're right in that she doesn't sound to be in the right frame of mind for training yet but hopefully she will be and training her to do things that she really understands will help build her confidence generally.

 

You need to give her a reason to want to stay at home rather than leg it when she can, although it does sound encouraging that she was waiting by the door to be let in one time.

 

BTW you can get dog runs like that here. Just google Dog Runs.

 

You do have to ask yourself if yours is the right home for Nel though. Sometimes committment isn't enough if she and your family aren't a good fit. Maybe a quiet home with no children would be better for her. Just something to consider.

[waffles]

 

You do have to ask yourself if yours is the right home for Nel though. Sometimes committment isn't enough if she and your family aren't a good fit. Maybe a quiet home with no children would be better for her. Just something to consider.

 

I was thinking that as well. You may have to really ask yourself if you are keeping her for your own selfish reasons (you said you were really attached and wouldn't consider rehoming) and not because it is in her best interest. I don't think relegating her to an outside kennel by herself is doing her justice or helping her (obviously). I understand your home and kids come first but that leaves you to really question your motive to keep her. To me, I think you should keep her but find new ways to work with her and really commit yourself to giving her a better quality of life.

 

It sounds like you are a knowledgeable dog owner but I would highly recommend finding a competent behaviorist to work with or start burying yourself in books/videos. Many people on this board have had dogs just as bad off and improvement is completely possible. I just don't think a life spent in a kennel alone is okay for a dog like her.

 

As I think others have said when she rolls over/pees, just ignore her and walk away. My dog rolled over constantly when we approached him, especially with the leash since he never wore one before. We would just turn around and walk away if he did it. You can also introduce food if she will take it (throw on ground, stand with your back to her and toss it, etc). You want to keep her under her fear threshold as much as possible.

 

Is it possible to get her out of the house first, then leash her up? You could start hand feeding her at the door but don't ask/make her go out. This way she realizes that every time she goes to the door or you approach with a leash, it does not mean she is going out. Then you could start feeding her with the door open, then with the bowl outside the door. All of this takes time and tons of patience. Lots of tiny baby steps over and over. Eventually if you really commit yourself in the right ways she will make great changes.

 

I wish you luck. I hope you can find the help she needs. There must be a trainer near you who would love the challenge of working with her, the problem is finding someone competent enough to know how to help.

[BorderCollieSam]

Our house and environment isn't an issue, if you could see how afffectionate she is to our children and how she plays with them (yes believe it or not she actually plays with an loves children), however the problem is once she is in the house she won't cone out!

 

No matter what you try, she won't be tempted by food either, she is very clever and realises what your intention I'd before you do it, she's always one step ahead.

 

The way I get hee out of the house is to approach her talking in a really high pitch girly voice and talk to her like I'm playing with her and slip the lead over her neck, but even then its hit and miss on the way to the front door whether she wees or not......

 

With the above, as well as the eating of furniture, and the complete terrified behaviour whilst inside the house, I.e. it can be silent and she will be running the full length of the front room.to the kitchen and then wait there for 1 minute and then she wikl run back, leap over us on the settee and hide in the corner for a minute, and then another 30 seconds time she will leap back and run somewhere else, she can't settle, is completely in shock, honestly she is much more relaxed in her kennel, you may think its cruel.but she enjoys it more.

 

I would love her in our house, I allowed her upstairs in my bedroom a few weeks ago, and she slept with us over night, and was nice to look down through the night and see her sitting by my bedside watching me, but my wife said she had been up and down all night long, and she dud wake me up to quite a few times.

 

I will take some vids at the weekend and post up to see what you think.

[mum24dog]

she is much more relaxed in her kennel, you may think its cruel.but she enjoys it more.

 

I don't think it's cruel. Some dogs do prefer to live outside, especially if they haven't been brought up to domestic life and noise sensitivity is quite common in collies,some of which may never have been off an isolated farm when young.

 

It does make creating a real bond and trust between you harder to achieve though. It's not the same as kennelled dogs that bond with their owners through working with them.

 

From your description of her behaviour in the house my guess would be that there is something specific that is scaring her and it could be something insignificant to you like a boiler coming on. Maybe something in the kitchen since you say she tries to hide after she has been in there. A friend's collie always panicked at the sound of the cooker ignition, for example. You say it can be silent but you can bet your life it isn't silent to her.

 

But you would need a home visit from a reputable behaviourist to see if the trigger can be identified. Anything on line is just guesswork.

 

What often happens is that one small thing can scare a dog and then the fear generalises to the place the scary thing happened, other things/people/animals that were around at the same time, the whole building where it happened etc.

 

Her fear of going out with a lead on could simply be association with being treated harshly in her previous life. Going outside with a man with or without a lead on could have meant bad things were going to happen to her because she wouldn't work well enough and her submissive weeing wouldn't be surprising. Dogs make such connections all the time.

 

She will be giving you signals whether she is likely to wee in fear or not. My JR came from an abusive home and is still likely to wee in fear if picked up in the wrong way. He's the cuddliest dog I have - it's just the picking up from a standing position that freaks him so I don't use intimidating body language and wait a moment until I can see him relax slightly (slight change in ear position for example) then pick him up quickly before he changes his mind. As a back up though I make sure he's on a hard surface in case I'm not quick enough. Some dogs never get over past bad experiences completely and the best we can do is not to make them worse.

[waffles]

I think sending a video to a behaviorist will do more help than anything. What you describe and what we imagine are probably two different things.

 

I also think for the leashing her up situation that high pitched talking and looping the leash over her head is not going to get her to the point she could be. As you said, it works sometimes but other times not. You need to take things much slower.

 

I would not say a word. Be still and quiet. Sit with her but don't touch her. Read her body language. Take the leash out but don't put it on her. Put it near or in your hand. Sit with her then walk away. Gradually build up to putting the leash near her but not on her. Then eventually put it on her but don't do anything. I would break down the whole situation into tiny steps and over a course of days or maybe longer work with her. So one day you just sit with her silently with the leash in hand, the 2nd or 3rd day you put the leash near her, the 4th or 5th day you slip it onto her, etc etc. She doesn't understand the high pitched talking anyways and I think with dogs as fearful as her, just sitting quietly and reading her will do more for her than anything. It'll show her that you respect her and that her body language is readable by humans. Otherwise to her, you are ignoring her obvious signs of discomfort and slipping the scary leash onto her even though she is obviously still scared.

 

I think her frantic running in the house is something you should have an outside perspective on. You may not see what is causing it but a behaviorist might. I don't think anyone thinks it is cruel to have her in a kennel but it does nothing to help her behavior in the long run, it just makes it easier for you to not have to clean up after her (obviously totally understandable).

[BorderCollieSam]

This might sound contradicting, however although she is scared to death, she is close to me and we do have a really good bond, she will eat out of my hand, give me a kiss and cuddle etc in the house or in the garden, but she acts a completely different dog outside, when on walks, and this is obviously one of the things she is frightened of which is causing 'one' if the problems we have with having her in the house, because once she's in you can't get her out without her wetting! And as said, it really does stink and isnt very nice, not like any of my other dogs I've had throughout the years.

 

And the other problem with her in the house is she can't settle, is constantly panting, and jumping over us and running from one end of the house to the other.

 

As said, ill take some vids at the weekend of different situations to show you how she acts differently depending on the situation.....