Journey Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I don't know too many people that rely on a pedigree alone for their breeding practice. It's the work and has been and is why the breed is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I don't know too many people that rely on a pedigree alone for their breeding practice. It's the work and has been and is why the breed is what it is. I'm not a breeder, so can't speak to that - but do breeders of quality dogs honestly just look at those dogs and never at what's behind them? I would think that would be important. It's not always just about what the parents have, you can have a lot of 'hidden' stuff come up from previous generations, both good and bad, that needs to be balanced out in the breeding decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I'm not a breeder, so can't speak to that - but do breeders of quality dogs honestly just look at those dogs and never at what's behind them? I would think that would be important. It's not always just about what the parents have, you can have a lot of 'hidden' stuff come up from previous generations, both good and bad, that needs to be balanced out in the breeding decision. Er, she said pedigree alone. I'm quite sure pedigree plays it's part in most considered breedings. As for the one generation pedigree not supplying much info, aren't there stud books held by registries that would allow you to study pedigree farther back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 You can always have a pedigree made. I always liked that ABCA gave you a little pedigree in the registration papers, but I'd be willing to forego that perk if that idea would be beneficial. you can also add to a pedigree just by looking at the pedigree info in some books. I've added to a lot of my dog's pedigrees that way. Most of the top sheepdog people don't need to look at a pedigree anyway, they have all that info in their heads. I had a really big hat look at one of my dog's pedigrees one time and he went through it telling me a lot about the individual dogs, including strengths and weaknesses and quirks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 ABCA's not providing a pedigree would serve no purpose regarding AKC registration. Those desiring AKC would simply get a pedigree thru some service (even ABCA if it is available-and it should be for breeders). A seperate working registry might keep 'proven' working dogs (the problems for proof have often been discussed) seperate from the AKC/sport dogs UNLESS AKC recognized the new registry which is highly unlikely (but then AKC does often change it's policies when it is for $$$$$.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Really Pam? Just what are the requirements for ACK registration? They must have changed cause I could have sworn a 3 generation ped. from ISDS/ABCA was required for open registration eligibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Really Pam? Just what are the requirements for ACK registration? They must have changed cause I could have sworn a 3 generation ped. from ISDS/ABCA was required for open registration eligibility. http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ADOPEN.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 From the AKC site Pedigree. Attach an 8.5” by 11” photocopy of the original pedigree issued by the U.S. registry containing at least three generations of ancestry (with registration numbers for each dog), establishing that each dog in the three generations was of the same breed and registered with a registry whose pedigrees are acceptable to the AKC. Does the ABCA issue pedigrees aside from the one on the registration papers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 My point exactly. No ped no ACK registration. And ttbomk ABCA doesn't issue any other sort of peds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 As this thread is now 13 pages, I can't resist pointing out that the title is "Susan Garrett's border collies, quick question. Emphasis added Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Good point, Ruth. Given the recent direction of the thread, though, I have to say one more thing. Early on, the idea of not including a pedigree on the ABCA registration certificate was proposed. The reasons I never thought this would work were: (1) I was told by Aussie people that during the AKC takeover of the Aussie, which occurred a few years earlier than the AKC takeover of the border collie, AKC did in fact register Aussies based on pedigrees that were not official ASCA pedigrees, but were simply handwritten by the dogs' owners. I don't have independent knowledge of a case where this occurred, nor do I have independent knowledge of a case where it didn't occur (i.e., a case where the owner tried to get a dog registered without an official ASCA or ABCA pedigree and was refused), but I have no reason to doubt it. The AKC had to scramble to put together a studbook for Australian Shepherds, and then for Border Collies. In the past they had always received the certified studbook of the registry of the breeds they recognized, but of course once they began these hostile takeovers, they had no access to an official studbook. They were pretty desperate to put together a studbook, and they went to some surprising lengths to do it; for example, they refused to take neutered border collies under the ILP/PAL program, and insisted on full registration or nothing, if the applicant said that the dog was purebred but that the applicant didn't know the pedigree details and couldn't get the registration papers, because they NEEDED lots of papers to rough out a studbook, and that would pressure the applicant to get the papers. So I do tend to believe the Aussie folks. (2) There is no doubt in my mind that if the ABCA dropped the pedigree from our registration certificates, and instead issued it on plain paper, that the AKC would accept those plain paper pedigrees as sufficient for registration. And I also think that the ABCA must issue a pedigree in some form to its members, because it's the function of a registry to maintain pedigree records, and what is the point of maintaining the records if they are not made functionally accessible to those who register with it? So I have never felt that this was a promising avenue for thwarting AKC registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Good point, Ruth. So I have never felt that this was a promising avenue for thwarting AKC registration. I still think the idea of different color registration papers ("kind of" like Denise bullseye visual) would at least HELP ... not fix it but maybe make the ones that do AKC trials have different colored papers (and have to explain that to their "customers"). I know the unreal amount of paperwork it would involve but still ... maybe better than nothing :@( Which seems to be where we are "stuck" at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I still think the idea of different color registration papers ("kind of" like Denise bullseye visual) would at least HELP ... not fix it but maybe make the ones that do AKC trials have different colored papers (and have to explain that to their "customers"). I know the unreal amount of paperwork it would involve but still ... maybe better than nothing :@( Which seems to be where we are "stuck" at. And then the breeders who AKC register would simply tell their customers that they are a special select breeder who gets to issue the different colored papers. That could so easily become something that the general populace would come to see as a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 And then the breeders who AKC register would simply tell their customers that they are a special select breeder who gets to issue the different colored papers. That could so easily become something that the general populace would come to see as a good thing. Not if it was stated on the ABCA reg papers what the colors mean (since "those type" want DUEL registration to PROVE their dogs are "working dogs")! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I still think the idea of different color registration papers I am just pitching this out there as fodder to chew on. The American Quarter Horse has gone through similar issues. This is what has come from it as a result. Just a thought..... http://www.nfqha.com/certification.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I am just pitching this out there as fodder to chew on. The American Quarter Horse has gone through similar issues. This is what has come from it as a result. Just a thought..... http://www.nfqha.com/certification.html That is interesting - a certification as 'foundation stock' of the 'true type' on top of the regular registration. Obviously ABCA wouldn't base it entirely on pedigree or markings like the quarter horse appears to do, but some type of work standard. I also think they have an interesting idea in sponsoring activities that are only open to horses with this certification. Maybe ABCA in conjuncion with USBCHA could sponsor some type of additional competition of a very high level (international style, etc) open only to dogs wtih this certification, which would give more of an incentive for people to get their dogs certified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Since AKC recognizes BC's from Europe, Asia, Aust etc there are many registries. What Eileen said is true. I know of BC's presented to AKC with hand written pedigrees, I know of forged/falsified papers (cut and paste/copied) that AKC accepted. They might be a bit more strict now, but I think it depends solely on the person who handles the papers in the AKC when they are submitted. If ABCA changed to a single generation pedigree then AKC would just accept 'certified' pedigrees from another source, or do whatever the BCSA presssed them to do regarding acceptance of dogs. That is why the door is open now, presure from BCASA to keep it open. The precident was from the racing Greyhound folks and the FDSB dogs. Only by not having the registry not recognized by AKC would it be possible to keep BC's out of AKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 To go back to the original topic -- Susan just posted "big news" on her Facebook page. She bred Feature (she didn't say to whom, but he is related to Encore) and got a singleton male puppy. http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Susan-Garrett-Dog-Agility-Training/148038161884479 Wonder why she kept it such a secret....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 So she thinks breeding should be left to the pros, and then goes on to say she has bred three litters of Jack Russell Terriers; the puppy(ies) being red was one of her priorities when picking a stud dog for Feature and she ends up selecting a stud less than a month before her bitch goes into season. nocommentnocommentnocomment. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Who is Encore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I am just pitching this out there as fodder to chew on. The American Quarter Horse has gone through similar issues. This is what has come from it as a result. Just a thought..... http://www.nfqha.com/certification.html That registry may be undergoing changes, but not that is not tha American Quarter Horse Assn but a separate registry that was formed. I have several AQHA reg horses and none are in the Foundation QH Reg. In other words all reg Quarter Horses have to be in AQHA but do not have to be in the foundation one. Like the ISDS or ABCA for Border Collies, the AQHA is the official regsitry for Border Collies and Quarter Horses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 That registry may be undergoing changes, but not that is not tha American Quarter Horse Assn but a separate registry that was formed. I have several AQHA reg horses and none are in the Foundation QH Reg. In other words all reg Quarter Horses have to be in AQHA but do not have to be in the foundation one. Like the ISDS or ABCA for Border Collies, the AQHA is the official regsitry for Border Collies and Quarter Horses. Please excuse the poor spelling in my last post. Need to proof read. As for the Foudation group, I believe that was formed to give some validity to the shows they wanted to put on, but admittedly I was not interested enough in it to learn too much about the workings of it. Good marketing on their part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Been working a ton the last three days. But to whoever asked where do I come up with the ridiculous statements. Not going to actually quote everyone since that is a waste of my time that could be spent doing school work and is more of attack type thing to do. but here is one of the threads I was thinking of/referring to: Sometimes I feel Like Giving Up http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=28200&st=0 if I have the time I might try to find the other treads... will have to find the other tread referring to what is consider "working" bred. I think this tread might touch on the topic but didn't actually have the time to reread all of the post. Pets vs Working there is another thread somewhere.... This is just with easy research. LOL But who in the world would have time to go thru all the threads and post to provide the post to the people who posted it to begin with??? I can hardly believe how many pages there are now in this tread from just this weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I wouldn't touch a FQHR horse with a ten foot pole, based on the merit of the registry alone. As I understand it and from what I have seen and know of some of the breeders that promote foundation bred horses, we dealt with some in Wisconsin. More weight is put on the percentage of "Foundation" blood and in some cases heavy inbreeding then on the actual work of the horse. It would be simular to starting a new Border Collie Registry based on dogs that have a higher percentage of foundation blood basing the foundation on 10 or what ever number, or originally registered ISDS dogs. This would reduce the influence of the more recent ROM'ed dogs or dogs that were accepted into the ISDS registry after those foundation dogs were granted papers from your lines. The AQHA is open to new Throughbred Blood via the Appendix program. We saw a stir with people promoting FQHA horses when it was believed that they average Quarter Horse was getting to look more Thourghbred as opposed to the old style "Bull Dog Quarter Horse", and that old type could not longer compete at the shows. Breed a registered QH to a TB and you get Appendix papers, prove the Appendix registered horse or the offspring in AQHA events and you get regular AQHA papers. The FQHR reduces the modern TB influence by requiring that horses they register to maintain a certain percentage of foundation blood. I've seen more then one breeder marketing the percentage of foundation blood as it is the requirement for maintaining and gaining registry as opposed to the quality of the work. Not saying all breeders, there probably are some that are good and producing spectacular horses, but I suspect they are also proving those horses within AQHA and the specific performance organizations. Personally, I think there is a better chance of seeing health issues by going the route of a foundation registry as it will cause a concentration of genetics and promote inbreeding for the wrong purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Who is Encore? Encore is one of Susan's Border Collies. I don't know anything else about Encore - not even gender. You could probably get info from her website if you wanted to know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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