Susan Garrett's border collies

[Shetlander]

I was really just hoping to hear that at least some folks who understand the working side of the issue trying to educate their friends, and guess what? Trying to educate doesn't require preachiness or a patronizing attitude.

 

I have shared what I've learned on these boards with sports people, for what it is worth. I don't think I've changed anyone's minds, however. They need to see more working bred dogs out there kicking butt in sports.

[MyTDogs]

I have shared what I've learned on these boards with sports people, for what it is worth. I don't think I've changed anyone's minds, however. They need to see more working bred dogs out there kicking butt in sports.

 

Often the dogs that are kicking butts in sports are one generation away from working dogs! So essentially they are working dogs...it is just that with just a couple more generations of breeding without regard to herding ability they will not be...

[Root Beer]

They need to see more working bred dogs out there kicking butt in sports.

 

That, I think, is extremely important. All the talk in the world isn't going to override what they are seeing in the performance of the Border Collies around them.

[MyTDogs]

I think that's part of why this "real Border Collie" and "non-real Border Collie" thing really doesn't work for me. When you are talking about people who have given a home to a Border Collie from a shelter, rescue, or other homeless situation, and then they are committed to giving the dog a great life, and they put a good bit of their heart and soul into training the dog to a level in a sport where they can go out and compete, I don't think that sort of talk has any place. I would consider it highly disrespectful to even imply that any of these people did not have a "real Border Collie" because the original owner purchased the dog from a sport Border Collie breeder, conformation Border Collie breeder, or the exact origin of the dog is unknown. I just would not consider it appropriate.

 

Why do you continue to insist that we are dissing people's dogs? I have said repeatedly that it is not about individual dogs. It is about the FUTURE of the Working Border Collie. We all love our dogs & respect the bond between any owner & any dog, whatever the breed or type, purchased or rescued.

 

That single minded focus is almost as annoying as the continual implication that those of us interested in preserving the Working Border Collie don't form as deep a bond or devote as much of our blood($), sweat(time), & tears(energy) into raising & training our dogs as you do, or as an adopter would, or as a sport dog owner would.

[Root Beer]

Why do you continue to insist that we are dissing people's dogs? I have said repeatedly that it is not about individual dogs. It is about the FUTURE of the Working Border Collie. We all love our dogs & respect the bond between any owner & any dog, whatever the breed or type, purchased or rescued.

 

I did not insist that you were dissing anyone's dogs.

 

You can't have it both ways. There can't be a split among the general population of Border Collies that would somehow not apply to specific dogs that belong to individuals. Acknowledging that reality is in no way meant to be an insistence that anyone is dissing anything.

 

That single minded focus is almost as annoying as the continual implication that those of us interested in preserving the Working Border Collie don't form as deep a bond or devote as much of our blood($), sweat(time), & tears(energy) into raising & training our dogs as you do, or as an adopter would, or as a sport dog owner would.

 

I'm not really sure why you would consider comments about the bond between other dogs and handlers, and about the blood, money, sweat, time, tears, and energy that goes into raising and training a Border Collie for sports as an implication that somehow you not doing so in the discipline of your choice. I don't think anyone who mentioned those things in the context of this discussion were doing so to try to imply that nobody else forms such bonds or makes such investment in their dogs. I can assure you that I never intended such an implication.

 

The fact is that what the sports enthusiast is planning to put into a dog is going to affect the choices that he or she is going to make when choosing that dog. If that person is unaware of the potential of the Working Border Collie as a worthy sport prospect, he or she is not going to do the legwork to seek one out, no matter how do-able that may actually be.

[SS Cressa]

People you might be needing to define your terms of a "working" border collie. From my understanding from this board. A farm bred dog is NOT consider working. A dog working lower level usbcha isn't consider a working border collie. A dog who work a med to small flock isn't consider working. Your dog MUST compete in the higher level and do well in national to be consider working. When I have time I will try to look up the thread about what is consider a good working border collie breeder.

 

Looking at the dual register tread where you have mutiple people agreeing with that cause of banning you from akc events. Will have to find the thread saying the good working breeders will have list, having mutiple breeders on here who state they perfer working homes some even went as far to say they prefer pet home to their dogs going to sport, they don't breed much(maybe once ever 4-5 years), I can go on if you want!

 

I would love to be able to point people to good working breeder but have yet found any. My girl does amazing but sadly her breeder according to this board isn't consider working. Even if I did find a working breeder if what the other thread is accurate I wouldn't be sold a pup.

 

The standard this board has set for having a pup from good working lines. Your right I have NEVER seen a "working" border collie in agility. The one that are excelling are the farm bred ones or sports. And sadly as this board so nicely put both are ruining the breed.

[3msmom]

Following up on Jodi's comment about Google's "working border collies," and this was just a quick run through and I know nothing about most of these people so this is rough. In the first three pages there are approximately 20 "working border collie breeders," of those about half make no mention at all of anything but working livestock, on ranches or at what level and what type venue isn't always readily apparent, some are obviously USBCHA Open competitors though. The other half either make mention of doing agility, flyball, etc. and have herding tossed in as almost an after thought and not necessarily at a high level like USBCHA or while stressing herding and again not necessarily at USBCHA Open level, make strong statements as to their dogs ability to compete and do well in those other sport type venues. That would seem to indicate to me that if an agility person was looking for and I quote "working border collie" that there are numerous opportunities to do research and at least a 50-75% chance to indeed find a working breeder. IMO if they did their homework and presented their case correctly they shouldn’t have a problem purchasing a true working breeders "dud" at herding (hopefully with a S/N requirement)and finding themselves with a nice dog that could very well excel at other things.

[MrSnappy]

... most of which are mixes, and are not in any way a threat to working bred Border Collies, or Sporter Collies, or even Barbie Collies ... nor do their mere existence in shelters all over the country justify Sporter Collie breeding in any way.

 

Just sayin'...

 

Most of which are mixes? Well that's certainly not true. Lots of which are purebred, though unregistered, and make up much larger numbers than the sporter collies. And I don't think I ever said it justified anything at all, can you show me where I did say that Jodi? I think you'll have some difficulty.

 

I fail to see how border collies bred for sport are more of a threat than the BCs bred for no reason other than breeding them, or whatever it is that motivates people to produce puppies. Isn't the party line here that breeding for anything other than work is bad for the breed? Or is it just sporter collies that are the devil?

 

RDM

 

RDM

[MyTDogs]

People you might be needing to define your terms of a "working" border collie. From my understanding from this board. A farm bred dog is NOT consider working. A dog working lower level usbcha isn't consider a working border collie. A dog who work a med to small flock isn't consider working. Your dog MUST compete in the higher level and do well in national to be consider working. When I have time I will try to look up the thread about what is consider a good working border collie breeder.

 

Looking at the dual register tread where you have mutiple people agreeing with that cause of banning you from akc events. Will have to find the thread saying the good working breeders will have list, having mutiple breeders on here who state they perfer working homes some even went as far to say they prefer pet home to their dogs going to sport, they don't breed much(maybe once ever 4-5 years), I can go on if you want!

 

I would love to be able to point people to good working breeder but have yet found any. My girl does amazing but sadly her breeder according to this board isn't consider working. Even if I did find a working breeder if what the other thread is accurate I wouldn't be sold a pup.

 

The standard this board has set for having a pup from good working lines. Your right I have NEVER seen a "working" border collie in agility. The one that are excelling are the farm bred ones or sports. And sadly as this board so nicely put both are ruining the breed.

 

Cressa,

 

We are (I am) only saying that people should buy their Border Collie from a Working Border Collie breeder. Meaning that the people who actually use the dogs for higher level stock work (USBCHA trials or actual farm/ranch work) are the people that should be breeding them & selling them. So if you bought one from such a breeder & then ran it in agility it would still be from a working breeder even if you didn't work it on livestock yourself.

 

IMO, that is okay as long as you don't then decide that your dog is so great you should breed it to your agility tent-mate's wonderful agility dog to make more wonderful & great agility dogs. IOW, you would need to agree not to breed your dog. Only the experts- the Farmers & Ranchers who work the dogs at it's true intended purpose- should decide the best dogs to put together.

 

When sport (or conformation or BYB...) people put 2 agility dogs together to make more agility dogs they are loosing a little each generation of the original Working Border Collie they started with- that is what we want to prevent- not the participation of Border Collies in agility & flyball, etc...

[Rave]

I beg to differ that all farmers and ranchers are experts at breeding. I've seen some who just throw whatever dogs they have available together.

 

If you guys got what you truly wanted, there would never be enough Border Collies to go around. Working breeders cannot handle the total current and future demand of Border Collies. Even if all the rescue BCs were snatched up. It's just not feasible.

[huskerdog (liz)]

This thread has taken an interesting turn.

I'll never forget investigating a "big hat" breeder's (whom I respect immensely) website, only to find that they did not allow registration of their dogs into the AKC. Granted, I wanted my pup first and foremost to be a family pet and to start participating in herding trials, but I also wanted to compete in agiliy. I do not have access in my immediate area to many trials outside of AKC sanctioned ones - so I was basically unable to show this pup or do anything through the AKC which limits my options greatly.

The issue of sports vs. working has been an interesting one for me because it seems like the line gets blurred more and more whereas with Barbie Collies the line gets more and more distinct. Many of the breeders that I have looked into before adopting Zoey were what this board would call "sports" breeders. They did not show their stock in any type of herding trials - just performance events - yet their dogs were entirely herding bred (2nd/3rd generation).

 

I guess that in the long run at least sports breeders are breeding towards a dog capable of doing more than a pretty trot around the ring and they are breeding for health, longevity, and performance versus the thousands of puppies churned out by Border Collie puppy mills across the US.

[SS Cressa]

Lol I think if they got what they wanted the border collie breed wouldn't exist! Just by not having enough fresh genes or new comers to keep it going.

 

I agree that a border collie should prove themseleve to get bred... but the standard for the public, sports, is waay different then what this board deems breed worthy.

 

I see a cattle farmer with pups. I get talking with him ask if his dogs work. He says yes they help him daily bring the cattle in. For the general public this is a working breeder. To this board his dogs are not breed worthy since they haven't proven themselves. He is either lable a byb/bad breeder who is ruining the breed.

 

In most border collie books I have read. Border collie were bred to help the shepherd and the farmers get their livestock effectively. Yet to these board the farmer and livestock producer are almost worthless and ruining the breed since they use the dogs on a smaller scale and/or don't compete with them. When did it come necessary to have your border collie either work massive herds of livestock or trial to be breed worthy? When did the border collie loose it farm dog status and become a trial dog to prove itself?

[MyTDogs]

Lol I think if they got what they wanted the border collie breed wouldn't exist! Just by not having enough fresh genes or new comers to keep it going.

 

I agree that a border collie should prove themseleve to get bred... but the standard for the public, sports, is waay different then what this board deems breed worthy.

 

I see a cattle farmer with pups. I get talking with him ask if his dogs work. He says yes they help him daily bring the cattle in. For the general public this is a working breeder. To this board his dogs are not breed worthy since they haven't proven themselves. He is either lable a byb/bad breeder who is ruining the breed.

 

In most border collie books I have read. Border collie were bred to help the shepherd and the farmers get their livestock effectively. Yet to these board the farmer and livestock producer are almost worthless and ruining the breed since they use the dogs on a smaller scale and/or don't compete with them. When did it come necessary to have your border collie either work massive herds of livestock or trial to be breed worthy? When did the border collie loose it farm dog status and become a trial dog to prove itself?

 

Cressa, Perhaps you MISREAD what I wrote??? Here are direct quotes from my post with emphasis added to help your comprehension.

 

Meaning that the people who actually use the dogs for higher level stock work (USBCHA trials or actual farm/ranch work) are the people that should be breeding them & selling them.

 

or

 

Only the experts- the Farmers & Ranchers who work the dogs at it's true intended purpose- should decide the best dogs to put together.

 

So contrary to what you wrote, IMO, farmers & livestock producers are just about the only people who can save the breed.

[Diana A]

What grenzehund said...

 

And I am very aware of your area and what working bred breeders lie within a couple hours of you, if you chose to seek them out rather than be willing to open a very large pocket book and make a "deal with the devil"in hopes of getting a talented agility dog...

 

I am also aware, having good friends who train/compete and are highly succesful in the cities not far from you, that there are working breeders who will not sell pups to those wanting to participate in dog sports. I feel if you understood the philosophy behind these boards it wouldn't be hard to see why they choose not to. But there are those who will....and it's worth the time and effort...

 

I keep seeing this same contradiction on these boards. Those doing dog sports are encouraged to seek out working breeders rather than sport breeders. This is seen as being better for the breed, since it supports working breeders even if the dogs bought for sports never see livestock. But then on the other hand, a lot of working breeders won't sell to someone wanting a sport dog. Which drives the person seeking a dog straight into the arms of the sport breeders. Then these people are looked down upon for making a "deal with the devil" when it's the working breeders making it very hard for some of them to purchase a working bred dog instead. Also AKC is big in agility, and aside from a stigma against sports, there are working breeders who require that their dogs not be registered with AKC. You can't have it both ways (tell people to buy working dogs for all sport activities instead of sport bred dogs, but then don't sell dogs to anyone who will run them in dog sports or register with AKC). I believe in the working bred dogs for agility and have been lucky to find my last couple of dogs from places that didn't have a problem with one of their pups doing sports (I also work them on stock and trial them in USBCHA) - but I know of people who won't go that route because (1) they're buying from unproven parents in their sport of choice, since so few dogs from a particular working kennel may have earned any kind of sport reputation, and (2) a lot of breeders won't sell to them anyway, or the perception is there that working breeders won't sell, so people don't even bother.

[Diana A]

Why is it the responsibility of the working Border Collie breeder -- the one who is responsible for preserving the breed -- to market to people who use the dogs for manmade doggie sports? Where is the responsibility of the buyer to research what they are doing and support that which will benefit the breed as a whole?

 

Many of the people running border collies in agility don't care that much about the breed itself as they do about the sport, and the dog is a tool for the sport. That's not to say the dog isn't a well loved pet or there's no emotional involvement, but so many that I have seen personally get their first border collie with no idea of the history of the breed, no knowledge of the real work they can do, and no committment to preserving those abilities. They just want a dog that's really good at agility, and if the breed entirely changes as a result of sport breeding, but the dogs are still good at agility, they are fine with that.

[jdarling]

Dogs bred for stockwork are good at doggie sports. That is not true the other way around. A Border Collie is a working dog by definition. Dogs bred for a purpose other than stockwork are, therefore, by definition, a different breed. They are no longer Border Collies. Agility people advertise from here to kingdom come, but you don't see stockdog handlers going to them for dogs.

 

But that's ok, right? Stockwork is a dying thing, right? Ranchers don't really need dogs anymore because, golly, our food comes from the grocery store anyway, huh? Yeah.

 

I beg to differ that all farmers and ranchers are experts at breeding. I've seen some who just throw whatever dogs they have available together.

 

Rave ... really? Now think about that. Rancher has a dog that he likes. Rancher gets another dog and that one doesn't work quite as well. What happens to the one that doesn't work as well? You know the rumors. They get shot, right? Rancher gets another dog, and that one works good too. So he breeds one to the other. They are selected for the work they do. Should he train them up in agility to make sure they're not carrying ETS?

 

I am really surprised to see some longtime members promoting the breeding of Sporter Collies.

[Blackdawgs]

As an outsider looking in, I think that the best thing that you [the stock dog world] can do is to change the name of the breed and be done with it. Two names, two breeds, no confusion. And then you [the stock dog world] can use whatever defination of "working" that you want and The Fancy can use whatever defination of "working" they want and everyone is happy. And if the sports people want to split from the conformation people, it doesn't effect you.

 

Ofcourse, now there will be several angry posts saying, "why should WE change the name of the dog?!" My answer is that you care about maintaining the split and The Fancy doesn't--- and if you care about something with every cell of your being, you will do what you need to do to preserve the thing that you love.

[Root Beer]

Many of the people running border collies in agility don't care that much about the breed itself as they do about the sport, and the dog is a tool for the sport. That's not to say the dog isn't a well loved pet or there's no emotional involvement, but so many that I have seen personally get their first border collie with no idea of the history of the breed, no knowledge of the real work they can do, and no committment to preserving those abilities. They just want a dog that's really good at agility, and if the breed entirely changes as a result of sport breeding, but the dogs are still good at agility, they are fine with that.

 

Why would someone who has no knowledge of the history of the breed have a commitment to preserving the working ability of the Border Collie? How would they?

 

As far as those who participate with Border Collies in sports, I would say that most do care about the breed itself, as much they care about their own dog's ability to play the game. I seriously doubt that anyone who runs Border Collies in Agility really wants to see the breed change or become something different. If they wanted a different type of dog, they have a wide variety to choose from. But coming from a sport perspective, not a working one, they understand the breed from a different point of view. That is not indicative of lack of caring in any way.

[jdarling]

Even people who don't know anything about dog sports know the Border Collie is a sheepdog. I have people say to me, "Oh Border Collies are so smart! Did you ever see the ones that work sheep?" So are you trying to say that some agility competitors don't know the dog's original purpose was to work livestock? Or that they care about preserving the breed as an agility dog? Seems many people who play doggie sports with their dogs just assume that because it's a Border Collie that it will work because it's in their genes ... a rather ignorant perspective.

[Blackdawgs]

Seems many people who play doggie sports with their dogs just assume that because it's a Border Collie that it will work because it's in their genes ... a rather ignorant perspective.

 

Because the sports world is full of ignorant people, it would behoove you to venture out into our world and educate us. Admission to agility trials is free and there is a large captive audience of people waiting for their runs.

 

Go for it.

[PSmitty]

Many of the people running border collies in agility don't care that much about the breed itself as they do about the sport, and the dog is a tool for the sport. That's not to say the dog isn't a well loved pet or there's no emotional involvement, but so many that I have seen personally get their first border collie with no idea of the history of the breed, no knowledge of the real work they can do, and no committment to preserving those abilities. They just want a dog that's really good at agility, and if the breed entirely changes as a result of sport breeding, but the dogs are still good at agility, they are fine with that.

 

I hate to say it, but I agree that this is probably a true representation of many BC owning sport competitors. Not all, but plenty, sadly.

[MyTDogs]

I keep seeing this same contradiction on these boards. Those doing dog sports are encouraged to seek out working breeders rather than sport breeders. This is seen as being better for the breed, since it supports working breeders even if the dogs bought for sports never see livestock. But then on the other hand, a lot of working breeders won't sell to someone wanting a sport dog. Which drives the person seeking a dog straight into the arms of the sport breeders. Then these people are looked down upon for making a "deal with the devil" when it's the working breeders making it very hard for some of them to purchase a working bred dog instead. Also AKC is big in agility, and aside from a stigma against sports, there are working breeders who require that their dogs not be registered with AKC. You can't have it both ways (tell people to buy working dogs for all sport activities instead of sport bred dogs, but then don't sell dogs to anyone who will run them in dog sports or register with AKC). I believe in the working bred dogs for agility and have been lucky to find my last couple of dogs from places that didn't have a problem with one of their pups doing sports (I also work them on stock and trial them in USBCHA) - but I know of people who won't go that route because (1) they're buying from unproven parents in their sport of choice, since so few dogs from a particular working kennel may have earned any kind of sport reputation, and (2) a lot of breeders won't sell to them anyway, or the perception is there that working breeders won't sell, so people don't even bother.

 

I agree Diana, I don't think they can have it both ways. That's why I'd advocate allowing for limited registration (Non-breeding status, and ILP/PAL only) for sports participation.

 

If a puppy buyer approaches the breeder with a proposal to get a pup for sports competition only & explains that they are not interested in breeding and will have the dog altered I'd bet many would agree provided the home was good otherwise. I'd bet many have those no AKC caveats on their website to deter those trolling for fresh Working dogs to add to their sport dog lines.

[SecretBC]

Question regarding these spay/neuter contracts -- By what age would working dog breeders require the dog being used for sport to be altered? Because in my circle, people are choosing to not get their sport prospects spayed/neutered until 15-24 months for developmental reasons. Is THAT going to be an issue for these working breeders?

[jdarling]

Because the sports world is full of ignorant people, it would behoove you to venture out into our world and educate us. Admission to agility trials is free and there is a large captive audience of people waiting for their runs.

 

Go for it.

 

Blackdawgs, I'm not sure what your point is? Please ... fill us in. Are you saying that agility folks don't know any better because the shepherds don't show up at agility trials to educate them about what these dogs are really about?

[Diana A]

Why would someone who has no knowledge of the history of the breed have a commitment to preserving the working ability of the Border Collie? How would they?

 

As far as those who participate with Border Collies in sports, I would say that most do care about the breed itself, as much they care about their own dog's ability to play the game. I seriously doubt that anyone who runs Border Collies in Agility really wants to see the breed change or become something different. If they wanted a different type of dog, they have a wide variety to choose from. But coming from a sport perspective, not a working one, they understand the breed from a different point of view. That is not indicative of lack of caring in any way.

 

I meant, they don't care about the stockdog part of it. I totally agree with your first paragraph - you can't expect them to understand and they likely aren't going to learn about it from the majority of fellow agility competitors. I'm not putting them down for not knowing about it or caring about it, but just saying you can't expect the average agility person who buys a border collie to make compromises to preserve working ability (such as buying that unknown working bred pup when their friend with the Nationals winning border collie just bred a litter, or deciding to not register with AKC and give up AKC agility). Sure you can say they should feel a certain way or make certain decisions, but reality is, they have no reason to and not enough contact with the working dog world to be persuaded to see it another way.

 

And I believe they do care about the breed, as they see it. They want to preserve the traits that make it a good agility dog. A lot of those breeding for agility probably have no clue how their dog works on sheep and don't really care. Border collies will keep their brains and athleticism and speed, etc if those are important for good agility dogs, but the working ability will be lost, and that change will pretty much be invisible to anyone who only does agility. So to them it may not LOOK like they have a 'different type of dog', but in essence it will be something very different from a working persepective. I have seen this with several sport bred dogs, that they just aren't all that interested in livestock, or if they, are they just want to chase, and maybe they could be trained, but the 'specialness' is gone and level of talent is much lower. Caring is all well and good, but if it's not caring about the things that preserve the working ability, then it still doesn't help the breed.