Susan Garrett's border collies

[jdarling]

This classified section is available to members for classifeds anything pertaining to Border Collies, herding and sheep/cattle .

 

To place a classified (up to 50 words) send ad, together with a cheque made out to Canadian Border Collie Association in the amount of $ 10.00 (for image add an additional $ 10.00) to CBCA, Box 817, Stirling, ON, K0K 3E0. Ideally send ad electronically webmaster@canadianbordercollies.org.. Images should be send as an attachment in jpg format. Ad will not be placed until webmaster is informed by registrar of payment.

 

This will entitle you to one classified ad for a period of 2 months. Extra words are 10 cents each. Images are $ 10.00 each (normally only one image per ad - maximum 2). Dogs must be CBCA registered. Please note advertisements will only be inserted after payment is received. See Fee Schedule.

 

Classifieds must be accompanied by payment.

And this isn't original to the CBCA, however, there are a few more small restrictions on the

USBCHA classified site.

It would be really hard to discriminate against folks that don't work their dogs. How would the person in charge decide who gets to and who does not get to? Where is the line drawn? If people meet the minimum requirements, there is no reason to preclude them.

 

[jdarling]

By the way ... I have no idea who Susan Garrett is. Well, not the agility Susan Garrett, anyway.

[Shetlander]

By the way ... I have no idea who Susan Garrett is. Well, not the agility Susan Garrett, anyway.

 

Canadian. Huge name in clicker training. Quite successful in agility.

[MyTDogs]

By the way ... I have no idea who Susan Garrett is. Well, not the agility Susan Garrett, anyway.

 

She owns Say Yes! Dog Training.

[Eileen Stein]

A question on registration in Canada.

 

 

 

Is this still true, I saw the border collie on the ckc webpage have they recognized it?

 

And is the "Any Border Collie sold in Canada as a registered dog must be registered with the Canadian Border Collie Association or the breeder is in conflict with the Canadian National Live Stock Pedigree Act" still true than? Is that why so many kc dogs are mixed up among the cbca dogs? I don't get it.. Can anyone explain the situation on my country

 

Under the Animal Pedigree Act in Canada, each breed of dog can have one, and only one, registry. For border collies, that registry is the CBCA. (The other side of that coin is that because the CBCA is the legal registry for border collies, they must register all border collies -- they can't refuse to register conformation champions, for example.)

 

The CKC doesn't like this. They would like to register border collies, but they can't. But they CAN "list" border collies, give them a number, and let them participate in all their activities. Since this reaps prestige and profit, that is what they have done. Over the protests of the CBCA, needless to say.

 

I don't know whether the CBCA feels they have to take ads from all of those registering with them, or whether they just haven't considered the issue. The USBCHA will not accept ads for any AKC registered dogs.

[Rave]

If you google Border Collie breeders, the top 10 are...

 

1. pet

2. pet

3. sport

4. MABCR!

5. pet

6. sport

7. pet

8. pet

9. pet

10. BCSA breeder referral list

[Laurae]

If you google Border Collie breeders, the top 10 are...

 

1. pet

2. pet

3. sport

4. MABCR!

5. pet

6. sport

7. pet

8. pet

9. pet

10. BCSA breeder referral list

 

Well, that's depressing...(except for MABCR, of course)

[jdarling]

If you google Border Collie breeders, the top 10 are..

 

I googled the same thing and got:

 

1. GForce BCs

2. Hob Nob

3. Rising Sun

4. Lockeye

5. Red Dawn

6. Puppy Dog Web

7. BCSA

8. Next Day Pets

9. Seven Links Ranch

10. Stockdog.com

 

Sad.

 

Stick the word "working" in front of that, and the results are a *little* better.

 

Search "working border collies" and you get this:

 

1. Working BC Magazine

2. Fieldstone

3. ABCA

4. Patrick Shannahan

5. Northern Lights

6. Kuykendall

7. Hill Shepherd

8. A working sheepdog video

9. B & B Border Collies

10. USBCC

 

Not perfect, but better. If you keep scrolling through those pages though, the next ten are pretty ugly, and much of a repeat as the ones in the first list of this post.

[MrSnappy]

I think the folks here are so vested in the topic that they have some difficulty understanding how convoluted it is to the average person. It's really, really difficult for someone who is kind of interested in border collies and would like to get one to wrap their head around the idea that something that looks like a border collie, and acts like a border collie is not a border collie if the breeding behind it was not for the specific purpose of working livestock to a kinda of vague and hotly argued about standard. And since the definition of working is so far from what the average person can even begin to comprehend, it's even more confusing for them. This is not a visceral subject, and it goes over the majority of heads.

 

I mean, look how many people still buy from pet stores, mills, internet sites and volume BYBS. There is absolutely NO REASON for people to do this, given the intense amount of publicity that surrounds these issues, and I don't mean in smallish circles on breed-specific bulletin boards. I mean Oprah, the news etc. And yet people do it every day - how can anyone expect the average pet person, or even agility person, to comprehend this incredibly convoluted concept?

 

I think we sometimes have over-expectations of the average person and how much information they are willing or able to absorb, because we've just internalized the subject matter so much. It's not that people are stupid, it's just that they're average people who want a border collie, and this is so much rhetoric to them.

 

RDM

[huskerdog (liz)]

I googled the same thing and got:

 

1. GForce BCs

2. Hob Nob

3. Rising Sun

4. Lockeye

5. Red Dawn

6. Puppy Dog Web

7. BCSA

8. Next Day Pets

9. Seven Links Ranch

10. Stockdog.com

 

Sad.

 

 

UGH. Depressing.

Amazing how six of the ten websites are actual "breeders"... the rest being lists and selling sites.

I'm pretty sure that Website #1 shows up next to "backyard breeder" in the dictionary. The front page starts out with a large "We have blue merle puppies for sale" and the "gold merle" stud dog that "cannot be tested for the merle gene". How that website made it to number one is beyond me.

Wouldn't website #3 (Rising Sun) be considered a working breeder?

As for Lockeye & Red Dawn ... met puppies and adults from both breeders and won't go near that with a ten foot pole.

[juliepoudrier]

Business owners can pay to have their sites featured at the top of a search, and there are tricks to getting your site returned near the top of any search (making your site searchable and using appropriate keywords, etc.).

 

As for Rising Sun, AFAIK they import working dogs sometimes (so they can make the claim of working dogs?), but seem to breed for color and other things more so than working ability. I'm pretty sure most folks really active in the working community wouldn't seek them out for a dog.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

I think the folks here are so vested in the topic that they have some difficulty understanding how convoluted it is to the average person. It's really, really difficult for someone who is kind of interested in border collies and would like to get one to wrap their head around the idea that something that looks like a border collie, and acts like a border collie is not a border collie if the breeding behind it was not for the specific purpose of working livestock to a kinda of vague and hotly argued about standard. And since the definition of working is so far from what the average person can even begin to comprehend, it's even more confusing for them. This is not a visceral subject, and it goes over the majority of heads.

 

I mean, look how many people still buy from pet stores, mills, internet sites and volume BYBS. There is absolutely NO REASON for people to do this, given the intense amount of publicity that surrounds these issues, and I don't mean in smallish circles on breed-specific bulletin boards. I mean Oprah, the news etc. And yet people do it every day - how can anyone expect the average pet person, or even agility person, to comprehend this incredibly convoluted concept?

 

I think we sometimes have over-expectations of the average person and how much information they are willing or able to absorb, because we've just internalized the subject matter so much. It's not that people are stupid, it's just that they're average people who want a border collie, and this is so much rhetoric to them.

 

RDM

 

I think the analysis of the "average" person is right (don't agree on the folks here not understanding how convoluted it seems--I think there's good evidence that many do understand that). As far as people buying from questionable sources all the time, don't you think that's changed as a result of the publicity about those issues? You'll probably never stop everyone, but I suspect measurably fewer people buy from those sources than would have done without such publicity (or than did even 10 years ago before such publicity was so common). The cultural norms around pets, esp. pet dogs, have changed considerably and that has mattered for breeding and purchasing.

 

So, do you think it's possible to make these issues more than just rhetoric as regards the Border Collie?

 

I guess I've come to the cynical conclusion that on this issue, in fact you can't in a broad sense--you can change some individuals but I don't see much evidence that you can shift the whole cultural context (particularly when you consider that these discussions basically always seem to end up in exactly the same place and that's been true at least since I got here 7 years ago with my sport-bred-biscuit-eater, Pippin)

 

If you could, then when average people, who aren't invested in the issues, start thinking they'd like a border collie, it'd just be normal to believe that border collies, for instance, are bred for function not form and the function they are bred for is ability to move livestock, regardless of what the individual dog is subsequently used for. If that were the cultural norm, it wouldn't much matter that people didn't want to think about it. They wouldn't need to. In fact, until the border collie became a part of the KC cultural norm, they didn't much need to (if my reading of the recent history of the breed is correct)

 

Given how many people on these very boards, indeed in this very discussion, believe that it's just fine to breed for (or support the breeding of) Border Collies who are not being bred with any real commitment to livestock work, though, I don't really see how you effectively shift the rhetoric. It seems to me that's what has to be done to prevent a true and obvious split in the breed. (Which does not mean I advocate starting to tell people they don't have a *real* Border Collie--the point is more that we can predict that in 10-20 years time, the differences in the selections made for breeding will have created functionally *and formally* different types of dogs. This is arguably already well underway.)

[Shetlander]

As for Lockeye & Red Dawn ... met puppies and adults from both breeders and won't go near that with a ten foot pole.

 

Hob Nob of course is big (and crazy expensive) in the performance world. What were your issues regarding the other dogs?

[shysheperdess]

I wouldn't be to sure about people from the working community NOT buying from rising sun...there is many an individual from this board who has bought pups from her....

 

Aside from the fact that she has a rediculous amount of dogs, the bloodlines advertised there are not bad, although she doesn't trial her dogs(has a few co-owned being trialed in open/PN) so the dogs being used for breeding are mostly un-proven...

[ItsADogsLyfe]

I don't think its convoluted at all. I think its a very simple concept. The Border Collie was created by farmers needing a good working sheepdog. They bred the dogs that worked best with the attributes they liked and voila the Border Collie imerged. It has been bred as a working dog for a couple hundred years by the people who needed a good working dog. Due to the nature of the work the Border Collie had to be intelligent, agile, have speed and also had to be able to think for himself but also be biddable to work with his owner and follow direction. He had to have an innate sense of working livestock. This is what makes a Border Collie a Border Collie. To breed him for some other purpose is not just to change what he is, but is IMHO the worst kind of disrespect for what he is.

See? Very simple concept.

[Root Beer]

See? Very simple concept.

 

Actually, to someone who is completely removed from the farming and stockwork world, it is not simple at all. That, to my way of thinking, is even simpler.

[Shetlander]

See? Very simple concept.

 

Simple concept in your world view. Not everyone has your world view, so it may not be as profoundly simple or as profound for them. It may be abstract and not at all meaningful. In the documentary, "The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara," the first lesson is "Empathize with your enemy." In other words, understand how they think and what is important to them. Don't make assumptions or think what is important/unimportant to you is also important/unimportant to them. If you want to engage in discussion and changing people's minds, empathy and understanding of how they view the world is usually helpful.

[MrSnappy]

I don't think its convoluted at all. I think its a very simple concept.

(etc)

 

It's a simple concept to YOU. It's not a simple concept to people who don't have a vested interest in the breed, but want that black and white dog that is smart, fast and looks like the dog in "Babe." The notion of what "working" consists of is very, very difficult for many people to wrap their brains around. Even more so, when someone who is marginally interested in doing the right thing sees someone advertising dogs as "from working lines" in a context that would make most people here roll their eyes so far back in their heads they'd fall right out their bottoms, they think they *are* doing the right thing by buying a "working" dog. And how many times have you heard someone say just on this board alone over the years that they "don't need a working dog, they just want a pet" so they don't need to go to a working breeder? People conceptualize based on their own experiences and needs; this topic is just so beyond them and moreover, they don't think it applies to them or their dogs or purchase choices.

 

I work in an animal shelter that used to be operated by the SPCA until maybe 10 years ago. The SPCA lost the contract, and the municipality has been operating the shelter itself ever since. People come in and want to donate money to the SPCA ... I explain we are not an SPCA, and not affiliated with the SPCA, but a district shelter and tell them why. They then proceed to ask me if they can donate money to the SPCA here anyway. Their worldview with respect to shelters is small - everything is the SPCA to them because for years every shelter was the SPCA. These are taxpayers, who allegedly voted on not renewing the SPCA contract and whose taxes are paying for our shelter, and yet they have exactly zero concept of who we are or what we do there. They aren't stupid either, it's just outside their field of interest so they don't understand - to them, an animal shelter is an SPCA. To most people, the border collie is a "sheepdog" that they recognize *on view*. The concept of how it came to be is not so interesting, relevant or recognizable to them.

 

RDM

[Eileen Stein]

I don't think its convoluted at all. I think its a very simple concept. The Border Collie was created by farmers needing a good working sheepdog. They bred the dogs that worked best with the attributes they liked and voila the Border Collie imerged. It has been bred as a working dog for a couple hundred years by the people who needed a good working dog. Due to the nature of the work the Border Collie had to be intelligent, agile, have speed and also had to be able to think for himself but also be biddable to work with his owner and follow direction. He had to have an innate sense of working livestock. This is what makes a Border Collie a Border Collie. To breed him for some other purpose is not just to change what he is, but is IMHO the worst kind of disrespect for what he is.

See? Very simple concept.

 

Very well put, and I agree -- it IS a simple concept. The problem is not that it's convoluted or complex. The problem is that it is totally different from the AKC paradigm, which is thoroughly internalized by nearly everyone in our society. People often simply don't "hear" what doesn't fit in with their established belief system. On top of that, if hearing it would require them to act in a way contrary to what they want to do, they WON'T hear it.

 

Most of us here understand that all too well. It's why we foresaw that AKC recognition would be a very bad thing for the border collie. Not something we could just neutralize and counter with our explanations and efforts to educate.

 

As for the list that comes up when you google Border Collie breeders, it stands to reason that those breeders most concerned with marketing are likely to get themselves to the top.

[PSmitty]

Simple concept in your world view. Not everyone has your world view, so it may not be as profoundly simple or as profound for them. It may be abstract and not at all meaningful. In the documentary, "The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara," the first lesson is "Empathize with your enemy." In other words, understand how they think and what is important to them. Don't make assumptions or think what is important/unimportant to you is also important/unimportant to them. If you want to engage in discussion and changing people's minds, empathy and understanding of how they view the world is usually helpful.

 

Very good.

[NorthfieldNick]

I guess I'm lucky, because I live in a small community that is still very rural/farming based, and a huge tourist destination. I have an incredible opportunity to educate the average person about the working Border Collie, and I make good use of that opportunity.

 

At least once a year, I give stockdog demos. They're very well attended. In my intro, before I start working, I make it very clear that Border Collies should be bred for woking ability only, not for looks or any other reason, and that good working dogs can excel at any sports. It helps that my dogs are both easily recognizable as Border Collies, but look very different from each other. They're also differently bred- one from dogs who trial heavily, the other from solid cattle ranch lines. Both proven, but in different ways.

 

I'm often moving sheep down the road, and several of my pastures border busy roads. People stop all the time to watch & take photos. If I can, I make it a point to stop and chat with these folks. People love having their car surrounded by sheep (Thank goodness, because we can really hold up traffic). I've had more than one person say things like, "Oh, we got our Border Collie from [the newspaper, an agility breeder, an AKC breeder]. Maybe that's why it's no good at 'herding'." I've also encourage people to try their rescue dog on sheep, and give them the names of area folks who have the sheep & facilities to do that.

 

Where I do fine myself stumbling is when people ask me how to stop their dog (Border Collie or other 'herding' breed) from 'herding' everything. I want to tell them it's not 'herding', it's annoying, and their dog is just bored/untrained, etc, but I usually tell them that I'm not a dog trainer, and give them the name of my friend who is.

 

I like to think I've made at least some difference. Even if I've made people think a little bit about where their dogs come from. One person quickly made the connection between working vs confo/sport Border Collies and their working Labs (they were here to go duck hunting) vs confo/pet Labs. Even though their dog was AKC registered, they "got it" that breeding for looks does not equal breeding for ability.

 

Who knows? I'm too busy to go crusading on behalf of the working border collie. I go about my battles in a quiet way that fits in with my livelihood. I know people will go get a sport/confo dog if that's what they really want (they're human, after all, free choice, etc), but if I can make even one person reconsider that AKC breeder, understand that what makes my dogs such wonderful workers is what makes these dogs such wonderful sport dogs, or even forgo the pedigree and look to rescue, then I've made a difference.

[Maralynn]

Very well put, and I agree -- it IS a simple concept. The problem is not that it's convoluted or complex. The problem is that it is totally different from the AKC paradigm, which is thoroughly internalized by nearly everyone in our society. People often simply don't "hear" what doesn't fit in with their established belief system. On top of that, if hearing it would require them to act in a way contrary to what they want to do, they WON'T hear it.

 

Most of us here understand that all too well. It's why we foresaw that AKC recognition would be a very bad thing for the border collie. Not something we could just neutralize and counter with our explanations and efforts to educate.

 

As for the list that comes up when you google Border Collie breeders, it stands to reason that those breeders most concerned with marketing are likely to get themselves to the top.

 

While it is a very simple concept, the other side has stolen the thunder and established themselves as major players. I looked at several of those sites and they look/sound good to both the average person and the beginner trying to find a "working" dog. They use the right buzz words. They have "ABCA Working Border Collies"

 

It's sad that it's come down to a marketing game, but it has as far as the average person and the beginner seeking to educate themselves is concerned. And, on the marketing end, the other side is winning.

[Laurae]

As much as education is heralded as the answer to this, I think this thread shows that education is not enough. Everyone views this topic through their own experiential lens, and what seems blantant to some is seen as completely outside the realm of consideration to others. Education is helping some see the border collie as still a working dog, but I fear far too slowly to save the border collie from its eventual end as a golden retriever in a tuxedo. While some are vested enough in the breed to learn about the politics involved and work to remain true to the breed, a far greater number of others being introduced to the breed see a border collie as a great sports dog who once herded sheep in England, the same way Irish setters used to hunt a long time ago. Breed books (and not just those published by the AKC) and Animal Planet tell us that border collies need a job--not herding sheep anymore because, goodness, who has sheep these days? But a job like fetching the newspaper or trying one of these great new activities like agility or flyball. I think that is what the general public understands, and I also agree that the vast majority of people has no interest in looking any deeper into the issue so many of us here hold so near to our hearts.

 

Again, I am left thinking that while banning dual registration might not make a big enough impact to completely stop this trend, doing so will help protect our working border collies from being completely co-opted and bring about the much-heralded breed split a little faster--maybe even fast enough to save the working border collie after all.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

No, not just simple to ME, simple in that the whole concept is just plain non complex. If Roses are red and have always been red but someone decides they really like roses but a red rose does not fit in with their plans and then breeds for a yellow rose, is it still a red rose or is it now something different? Not a good analogy I think, but I'm working and trying to think of this while working.

And as for the quote "Empathize with your enemy," am I in a war here? I realize, people do what they want. Most people could care less what happens with the breed, they want what they want and they want it NOW! I can't change the way most people think, but that isn't what I was talking about anyway. I was saying the concept of the Border Collie being bred for something other than the work, makes it not a Border Collie. That's really not so much of a concept as a fact. You can word things anyway you want to, but you can't change that fact. You may not understand it either out of ignorance or denial, but it is a fact.

[geonni banner]

As an outsider looking in, I think that the best thing that you [the stock dog world] can do is to change the name of the breed and be done with it. Two names, two breeds, no confusion. And then you [the stock dog world] can use whatever defination of "working" that you want and The Fancy can use whatever defination of "working" they want and everyone is happy. And if the sports people want to split from the conformation people, it doesn't effect you.

 

Ofcourse, now there will be several angry posts saying, "why should WE change the name of the dog?!" My answer is that you care about maintaining the split and The Fancy doesn't--- and if you care about something with every cell of your being, you will do what you need to do to preserve the thing that you love.

I have to go on record as agreeing with this. As this thread amply demonstrates (IMO) the Border Collie is already fragmented into "varieties" most of which couldn't do real stockwork if their lives depended upon it. Is it worth it to see the working dogs become diluted to the point of worthlessness to hang onto a pair of words? The people that created the working Border Collie probably did not give two hoots what their dog was called. They just needed it to get a job done. Why throw the baby out with the bath water? I say circle the wagons - pick the name most acceptable to the most working Border Collie people and preserve the working dogs under that moniker. Make ability of dogs/parents on stock the single most important requirement for registration, to prevent this from happening again, and let the conformation, sport and "versatility" dogs evolve as they like. The Shetland Sheepdog was once a working stock dog. How many of them are there now? Two? And would they pass their ability on if they were bred to each other? Don't look now, but the Border Collie is on it's way there at a gallop.