Jump to content
BC Boards

Susan Garrett's border collies


Recommended Posts

I keep seeing this same contradiction on these boards. Those doing dog sports are encouraged to seek out working breeders rather than sport breeders. This is seen as being better for the breed, since it supports working breeders even if the dogs bought for sports never see livestock. But then on the other hand, a lot of working breeders won't sell to someone wanting a sport dog. Which drives the person seeking a dog straight into the arms of the sport breeders. Then these people are looked down upon for making a "deal with the devil" when it's the working breeders making it very hard for some of them to purchase a working bred dog instead. Also AKC is big in agility, and aside from a stigma against sports, there are working breeders who require that their dogs not be registered with AKC. You can't have it both ways (tell people to buy working dogs for all sport activities instead of sport bred dogs, but then don't sell dogs to anyone who will run them in dog sports or register with AKC). I believe in the working bred dogs for agility and have been lucky to find my last couple of dogs from places that didn't have a problem with one of their pups doing sports (I also work them on stock and trial them in USBCHA) - but I know of people who won't go that route because (1) they're buying from unproven parents in their sport of choice, since so few dogs from a particular working kennel may have earned any kind of sport reputation, and (2) a lot of breeders won't sell to them anyway, or the perception is there that working breeders won't sell, so people don't even bother.

 

Exactly! I wanted a working bred pup from a well regarded (and recommended) working breeder in the Northwest, but they did not allow registration with AKC. Despite the fact that I would be neutering and it would be a working home, I also wanted to dabble in agility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 294
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Blackdawgs, I'm not sure what your point is? Please ... fill us in. Are you saying that agility folks don't know any better because the shepherds don't show up at agility trials to educate them about what these dogs are really about?

 

<Sigh> I am saying that if education of the sports community is a concern to you, you need to venture out into the sports community and educate. Because I can assure you, that most sports folks do not read this bulliten board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dogs bred for stockwork are good at doggie sports.

 

Not necessarily.

 

That is not true the other way around.

 

Not necessarily.

 

They are selected for the work they do.

 

... or for convenience. I personally have seen quite a few instances of farmers breeding the dogs they had who hadn't really proven themselves, certainly weren't up to Open level (actually one went to another home and was retired because it couldn't handle anything but very low level stuff). So yeah, I would not consider every farmer out there to be an expert in breeding by any means. You all are wearing rose-colored glasses when it comes to farmers. Sure some are top notch and improving, or at least carrying on, the breed and kudos to them. But that's not always the case.

 

I am really surprised to see some longtime members promoting the breeding of Sporter Collies.

 

I'm not promoting it, but I've been having this discussion for so long now that I realize it's not going anywhere because it fills a need. Let's have this discussion again in 5 years and see how things are the same then too, ok? ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I do. Despite my involvement in the sport world (agility and flyball) I agree with the board philosophy when it comes to breeding Border Collies. I am a rescue person, but if I were ever going to buy a dog (which I'm not), I promise you it would be working bred.

 

And yes, when I get the chance, I share my feelings on the subject with my fellow sport people.

 

I do, too, if/when the opportunity arises. But, I don't carry my soapbox around with me to preach the word of the working bred border collie to my fellow agility competitors when they have not asked for my opinion. If someone is talking to me about border collies and breeding and sports, ect., I will explain why it is important that border collies be bred for stock work only, why dogs bred for stock work only would also make excellent sports dogs, and why it is not possible to breed for agility ability; but more often than not, it falls on deaf ears.

 

I also want to make it clear that not everyone who competes with a border collie in agility is running a $1,500+ sport-bred dog. I, in fact, don't know of anyone that I associate with who has a sport-bred border collie. Most of the folks that I know that are competing with their border collies got their dogs from rescue. I only know of a handful of people (that I associate with) that have purchased a dog from a breeder. I am constantly approached by folks who have a border collie are looking for another border collie to compete with and they are specifically wanting a rescue border collie. But, then again, I'm not a top competitor and never will be, so I'm not usually running in the same circles with those top handlers who are likely buying and competing with sport-bred dogs.

 

I have to agree with RDM, though, that sport-bred border collies are probably much less of a threat to the working bred border collie than byb and non-purpose bred border collies. There are a HECK of a lot more of those out there than there are sport-bred dogs. The sporter collie breeders have a very specific group that they are marketing their dogs to; whereas, the byb and non-purpose bred breeders are marketing to anyone willig to pay for a puppy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People you might be needing to define your terms of a "working" border collie. From my understanding from this board. A farm bred dog is NOT consider working. A dog working lower level usbcha isn't consider a working border collie. A dog who work a med to small flock isn't consider working. Your dog MUST compete in the higher level and do well in national to be consider working. When I have time I will try to look up the thread about what is consider a good working border collie breeder.

 

Perhaps you would do well to look up Denise Wall's posts explaining her target analogy. It's been posted to this forum numerous times, and for those of us who are long-time members and owners/users of working dogs, it explains breeding philosophies very nicely. If you read it, then you will see that what you've stated above is not exactly true. The non-top-level dogs (orange and yellow circle dogs) are indeed needed to keep the working gene pool healthy and diverse. By the very definition of the target analogy, one can't just breed the "best to the best" and continue to replenish the red circle. Seriously. Go find one of the threads that explains Denise's analogy and read it closely. Then you might have a better idea of what most working dog people believe when it comes to breeding. I think where you're getting confused is when people make statements like "you need to prove your dog." This is true, and it's especially true of people who aren't long-time stock or dog people. Why? Because if you (the general you) don't have long-term, historical knowledge of both the dogs and the livestock, then you really aren't in a position to make excellent breeding decisions from a working standpoint. Over my years here I know I've said repeatedly that if someone like Tommy Wilson, Jack Knox, or Alasdair MacRae (and others like them--people who are as enveloped in the world of livestock as they are in the world of working dogs) deems a young, unproven dog worthy of breeding then I would respect that based on the knowledge base they're drawing from--knowledge many of the newer folks to the sport of dog trialing simply don't have. For the rest of us it does make sense to try to prove our dogs somehow, and the best test we have is the USBCHA open trial. But don't forget that you also get people like Don McCaig stating that novices breeding dogs are doing a favor for other novices, so by no means should you interpret the comments of one or two (or ten) people here as indicative of what the entire working border collie world feels, en masse.

 

Looking at the dual register tread where you have mutiple people agreeing with that cause of banning you from akc events.

 

If you don't understand the historical evidence of what AKC breeding does to dogs and why some breed aficianadoes want to take a stand against AKC and what it means for purebred dogs in general then nothing I can say will change that. If a breeder doesn't want his/her dogs registered with AKC that doesn't make them evil or mean (to you or any other potential buyer). It simply means that they are standing on principle (their belief that AKC recognition leads to ruination of breeds), not that they are trying to personally insult you or control what you do. It's a great big world out there, and some folks do actually stand on principle. That's rather refreshing actually.

 

Will have to find the thread saying the good working breeders will have list, having mutiple breeders on here who state they perfer working homes some even went as far to say they prefer pet home to their dogs going to sport, they don't breed much(maybe once ever 4-5 years), I can go on if you want!

 

Don't go on unless you can quote truthfully and fully, which I don't think you can do. What you've stated above is half-truth and your interpretation of what people have said. I've been on this forum for a decade, and every time the topic of selling to non-working homes comes up, I *know* I've stated (ad nauseum) that I would rather sell to a good pet home than a sh!tty working home. Would you also complain if you went to an agility breeder and told that breeder you only wanted a companion and that agility breeder declined to sell you a dog because s/he wanted her litter in sport homes so she could prove the breeding? That's all working breeders are saying. At least some pups need to go to working homes or you have no idea if the cross you made was a good one. And if you don't have any idea of the working quality of the pups, then you can't repeat, or adjust, next time because you have no data to go on. It's not some vast conspiracy to keep working pups out of sport homes--it good breeding practices to make sure that your (the general you) own working crosses are actually exhibiting the qualities you were breeding for. (Again, I will refer you to Denise's target analogy; I believe she also discusses briefly the need to select for working traits in every generation if those working traits are to be retained--not a vast conspiracy but a fact of the complex genetics that create the working dog.) And honestly, just because one working breeder might turn you down doesn't mean others would, so claiming that all want their pups only in working homes is simply a false claim. And in my decade here I don't recall anyone stating that they would sell to a pet home before a sport home, unless it was related to the whole S/N thing. But maybe while you're searching for the target breeding discussion, you can find a thread where a bunch of folks said they would prefer to sell to pet homes vs. sport homes.

 

I would love to be able to point people to good working breeder but have yet found any. My girl does amazing but sadly her breeder according to this board isn't consider working. Even if I did find a working breeder if what the other thread is accurate I wouldn't be sold a pup.

 

I think what needs to be corrected is this: Your interpretation of what was said in "that other thread" is that you wouldn't be sold a pup. You don't know you wouldn't be sold a pup, but I can guarantee you that others have tried to disabuse you of this notion in other threads and yet you keep repeating it. ISTM this is what you want to believe or is your rationale for not even looking for working breeders. But what you think is reality isn't necessarily reality, and it would be refreshing if you could recognize that. I'm sure that when this topic comes up again, the same claims will be made, despite my efforts here (and in previous discussions over the years) to point out that what you choose to believe isn't necessarily true.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question regarding these spay/neuter contracts -- By what age would working dog breeders require the dog being used for sport to be altered? Because in my circle, people are choosing to not get their sport prospects spayed/neutered until 15-24 months for developmental reasons. Is THAT going to be an issue for these working breeders?

 

This is an excellent question.

 

You don't get a choice with rescue dogs, but if I were going to purchase, the spay/neuter contract would have to allow for full development before the dog would be altered. I have no problem with spay/neutering and am happy to sign a contract promising to do so. All of my dogs are altered and I have no desire to breed anything. But I would not do it when the dog is 6 months old again. It goes back to that investment thing again. If I am going to purchase a Border Collie, I am going to do everything possible to give the dog as much longevity as possible and if putting off neutering until the dog is 15 - 24 months old has the potential to contribute to the dog's longevity, that is what I would expect to be able to do.

 

Perhaps this is an example of viewing the dog as a tool, but it goes hand in hand with the dog's long term overall health as a pet.

 

Edited: Corrected spelling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't alter my own dogs until they are at least two (or older), so I wouldn't require it of a person who buys a pup for sport. But I would expect anyone buying a pup on a S/N contract to honor that contract and NOT breed the dog, period, no matter what age they choose to neuter.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spay/neuter contract is usually connected to the papers. The breeder doesn't hand the papers over until the dog is spayed/nuetered. So when you decide to spay/neuter is when you'll be handed the papers. I don't think it should matter to the breeder when it happens. If puppies happen before the spay/neuter, they are not registerable with any organization because there are no papers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never found it hard to find a working breeder. Brady was ranch bred, but I intended for him to be a companion/agility/flyball partner. He's on a limited registry contract (as he should be), but I just went to stockdog.com to look up breeders to talk to when I was researching the breed and looking around.

 

I went to this site out of curiosity and found that they pulled their breeder list. It sure would be nice if there was such a resource available to people.

 

http://www.stockdog.com/breeders/breeders.htm

 

"Due to misuse of the free listings the breeders directory is undergoing major changes and is currently unavailable. We apologize for the inconvenience."

 

Also, I notice that nothing has been updated past 2008 on the site...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know of one person who attempted to get a pup from a top USBCHA trainer/handler and she DID NOT allow the pup to go past 12 months without being altered....to the breeder the downfalls FAR outweighed the benefits for the pup...

 

Looking at a kennel like Silver Ridge..who can blame her..I can tell you with most certainty that one of the dogs being bred to death in that kennel for sport homes was NEVER intended for that to be her fate..she got there through being sold and sold again for her pedigree...alot of breeders are not willing to risk that..unfortunetly a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of the folk who aren't looking at making puppies..

 

I also see though how that would be instantly dis-appealing to a sport home if they believe that should be a requirement..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blackdawgs, I'm not sure what your point is? Please ... fill us in. Are you saying that agility folks don't know any better because the shepherds don't show up at agility trials to educate them about what these dogs are really about?

 

 

 

That's not what he's saying. Reread his post with [dripping sarcasm] [/dripping sarcasm] tags around it. It makes more sense that way.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an excellent question.

 

You don't get a choice with rescue dogs, but if I were going to purchase, the spay/neuter contract would have to allow for full development before the dog would be altered. I have no problem with spay/neutering and am happy to sign a contract promising to do so. All of my dogs are altered and I have no desire to breed anything. But I would not do it when the dog is 6 months old again. It goes back to that investment thing again. If I am going to purchase a Border Collie, I am going to do everything possible to give the dog as much longevity as possible and if putting off neutering until the dog is 15 - 24 months old has the potential to contribute to the dog's longevity, that is what I would expect to be able to do.

 

Perhaps this is an example of viewing the dog as a tool, but it goes hand in hand with the dog's long term overall health as a pet.

 

Edited: Corrected spelling.

 

Sorry to be off topic. This is interesting. My vet is trying to get me to spay my pup now, but I don't agree and won't do it. She is too young. The vet said if I get her spayed now, it will prevent some sort of cancer (can't remember which). I would like her to fully develop, but there are two sides of the story of when to spay and it confuses me.

 

Are there any old threads one could point me to on the topic of spaying? I would love to learn more as I've never owned a puppy so young and want to raise her right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I keep seeing this same contradiction on these boards. Those doing dog sports are encouraged to seek out working breeders rather than sport breeders. This is seen as being better for the breed, since it supports working breeders even if the dogs bought for sports never see livestock. But then on the other hand, a lot of working breeders won't sell to someone wanting a sport dog. Which drives the person seeking a dog straight into the arms of the sport breeders. Then these people are looked down upon for making a "deal with the devil" when it's the working breeders making it very hard for some of them to purchase a working bred dog instead. Also AKC is big in agility, and aside from a stigma against sports, there are working breeders who require that their dogs not be registered with AKC. You can't have it both ways (tell people to buy working dogs for all sport activities instead of sport bred dogs, but then don't sell dogs to anyone who will run them in dog sports or register with AKC).

 

The contradiction I keep seeing is posts saying that it's the working breeders' fault that there are sport dogs, agility dogs, AKC dogs because they sell/sold their dogs to those homes, and posts saying it's the working breeders' fault that sport owners buy from sport breeders because they won't sell their dogs to people who want to do sports. You can't have it both ways, I want to say -- you can't say it's the working breeders' fault because they do sell to sport homes and it's the working breeders' fault because they don't sell to sports homes.

 

There are plenty of working breeders who will sell to sport homes. Plenty. There are also plenty of working breeders who will sell to AKC homes. Some won't -- I won't -- but plenty will. If you want to get a dog to do agility with, you can get one from a working breeder. That is just a fact, and saying "I once talked to a working breeder and he wouldn't sell dogs to a sports/AKC home" doesn't change it.

 

I just googled "border collie" and found that this site (bordercollie.org) came up second in the list. I googled "border collies" and this site came up third. (In both cases the first is Wikipedia.) This tells me that newbies, if they try to research the breed online, will reach a source of information about the conflict over preserving the traditional border collie, bred for work. They may not give a damn, but they will see it. Of course, there are many who will not do any online research. They will come to the breed through AKC, or some other way, I suppose.

 

A website like this one makes sense to me as an educational effort. For working dog breeders to design or market their dogs to sports competitors makes no sense to me. For working dog breeders to go compete in agility trials to show agility folks that working bred dogs can do great in agility makes no sense to me. Working dog breeders need to focus on breeding working dogs -- there is already too much distraction and temptation for them to do otherwise. I would have liked to think that agility competitors who have read here would appreciate the breeders who made the breed enough to advocate for the traditional working-bred dog in their agility circles, but I guess I'm not surprised that so many don't. How do you make someone care about something they don't care about? I don't know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The contradiction I keep seeing is posts saying that it's the working breeders' fault that there are sport dogs, agility dogs, AKC dogs because they sell/sold their dogs to those homes, and posts saying it's the working breeders' fault that sport owners buy from sport breeders because they won't sell their dogs to people who want to do sports. You can't have it both ways, I want to say -- you can't say it's the working breeders' fault because they do sell to sport homes and it's the working breeders' fault because they don't sell to sports homes.

 

Will assessing blame to anyone really do anything practical to influence sport enthusiasts to consider working bred Border Collies over sport bred Border Collies? Personally, I don't think so. I don't think blame on either side will do anything to help anyone.

 

People participate in dog sports (including Agility) with their Border Collies do so primarily because something about the sport attracts them and they feel that their dog will enjoy it/be good at it or because they are involved with the sport and prefer a Border Collie for one reason or another. I don't see how working breeders could be "blamed" for that. In fact, I don't see why anyone needs to be "blamed" for it.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never intended to convey that working breeders should be "blamed" for owners wanting to buy from sport breeders.

 

What I said is that the average sport enthusiast who participates with Border Collies cannot realistically be expected to know that working bred Border Collies should be considered when one is seeking to purchase a new puppy since working breeders do not actively market their Border Collies to that population, and the sport breeders do. That is not to "blame" the working breeders. It's just a reality. If they were to actively market to the sport enthusiast population, they would probably have sport enthusiasts lined up at the door to buy their dogs. That said, I completely understand why they do not actively market to the sport population. There is no "blame".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sixx, this is one of the most popular articles, by Chris Zink:

 

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

 

Great article, thanks!

 

 

sixx, look at this thread.

 

Anyone who wants to pursue this early spay/neuter offshoot, please do it on that thread.

 

Perfect, thanks :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For being non-herding person, and just getting my first BC two years ago I'm very new to it all, but this is how I see it.

 

When I was looking for my boy I already went into it knowing the _kc was evil. I've always had my view that dogs should be bred with their original purpose. Around here, pups of any breed are bought are bought for their working ability, and that is hunting. You get that dog from someone who has dogs who are good in the field (there's no competetions around here) and you put together to known good dogs and you get the puppies who you hope got the good stuff passed on to them. So when I was looking for a border collie, I thought to myself, well border collies herd sheep, so I'm going to have to go find a farmer. And that's just what I did. The parents didn't compete in trials, they worked on a farm. His dad also worked cows and ducks too. So that was dandy for me.

 

Everywhere I go, people are like "is he a border?" "he's a mix, right?" or "what kind of dog is he"... I tell them border collie, and then I get the "he doesn't have enough black and white" or "he looks so different then what I see on tv". And then I get my chance to share the little I know about proper border collie breeding, and about working ability. And then I slyly make Jude do some amazing frisbee catches, or add in how excellent he is doing in sports training and how he isn't crazy and has such a good work ethic, all the while really highlighting he got that from being his working parents. I hope that if that person is ever looking for a border collie, she'll remember the conversation.

 

I'm OCD about researching and google. I can't ever be on the computer without atleast a few internet windows open, and hitting up google every 5 minutes. I'm obcessed with finding out everything I can on even the smallest things that catch my interest. Most people are not like me. Have you guys ever checked out other dog forums and/or agility ones. There is a lot of, well the majority of the people on those boards, still think a conformation bred BC is ok, does who know it's ok mostly get their dogs as sports dogs. And really how are they suppose to know? A lot of those sport breeders webpages have descriptions of their dog being bred for "working ability" with no reference that they don't mean sheep. They also have herding under activities that their dogs do.

 

How is the average person suppose to know not to go there? These breeders have all the makings of a good breeder for dogs. They mention herding and these dogs are doing great at the sports they play too (agility, flyball, frisbee). Sure I know better, I know that those qualities come from working dogs, but without true working breeders marketing themselves a little better the sports dog will go the same way as the kc one and then we are at the same place.

 

A scenario: Average me goes to CBCA website because did my research and I know the proper thign is to get a working border collie, so I did what better place to look for dogs than look the breeder page on that website I go and randomly click on a breeder http://www.moyhallfarm.com/ Then I randomly clicked on one dog Cuill being bred.. http://www.moyhallfarm.com/Cuills_Pedigree.html

On the sires side Bordertime collies seem to come from here http://www.woodlandsanimalcare.com/page6.html with this statement

We are a Kennel Club Accredited Breeder."
The borderfame collies seem to also be kc

Detania dogs on the dams side are also kc registered dogs…

 

And another site listed there http://www.burhillbordercollies.com/border_collie_faq.htm

"Although our pups do fine in recreational sports or herding, they are not appropriate for serious competitive sports or stock dog or sheep dog work as they simply do not have enough drive."

 

Now being able to be registertered is one thing with an organization, but if they aren't what the breed is suppose to be why can they advertise on the CBCA website? Or is it a bad organization. Now I am lost... The main page of the CBCA says

"Promoting and fostering the breeding, training and distribution of reliable working Border Collies in Canada;"
So why can non-working dogs be advertised? If one can't relly on the breeders/trainers page there upholding the standard, where the hell does one look for the right information? Yes I see plenty of good breeders there, but I have been lurking this forum here for 1 year and a member for another 2. No one is going to put in years research before getting a dog, so they think they should be able to trust the cbca page here in canada if they want a working dog.

 

I'm not saying anyone is responsible but I do think that those who really care about the breed and who breed them should market themselves more (no, don't go compete your sheepdog in agility) but find a way to showcase to show sports people that the TRUE border collie has the qualities they are looking for. It's not about who should do it and people should know better when they buy, but its about being proactive and everyone doing their part on maintaining the breed. Perhaps on websites also have a section that list pups from two true workings crosses that you have sold that are currently doing well in agility and flyball and all the other sports. Show how your two sheep dogs produced the exact qualities in pups that are being sought in the sport world. Let potential buyers know that instead of going to sports breeders who may be inadvertently breeding these qualities by breeding two unproven dogs together (unproven in the herding sense, not agility) go directly to the source which almost ensures those qualities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A question on registration in Canada.

 

The breed is not fully recognized by the Canadian Kennel Club, but the dogs can be registered with the Canadian Border Collie registry or, if born in the USA, with one of the Border Collie registries in the USA. They can currently compete in CKC licensed events, but require application and recording fees when previously registered with a BC registry. Any Border Collie sold in Canada as a registered dog must be registered with the Canadian Border Collie Association or the breeder is in conflict with the Canadian National Live Stock Pedigree Act. As a registered dog, each dog must be tattooed for identification, prior to leaving the breeder.

 

Is this still true, I saw the border collie on the ckc webpage have they recognized it?

 

And is the "Any Border Collie sold in Canada as a registered dog must be registered with the Canadian Border Collie Association or the breeder is in conflict with the Canadian National Live Stock Pedigree Act" still true than? Is that why so many kc dogs are mixed up among the cbca dogs? I don't get it.. Can anyone explain the situation on my country

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are all kinds of things wrong with that Burhill site (and I believe they've been discussed at length ... anyone remember ... is that the chick that wouldn't sell to "overweight" people? now it just says that people need to be "physically active enough"...) ... but the latest one I see is:

 

Realistically, border collies can no longer be solely bred for work, since there obviously is not enough work anymore for border collies.

 

That's quite a way to justify breeding dogs for ... for what? What do they breed for? Oh yeah. Nothing. Every heat.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are all kinds of things wrong with that Burhill site (and I believe they've been discussed at length ... anyone remember ... is that the chick that wouldn't sell to "overweight" people? now it just says that people need to be "physically active enough"...) ... but the latest one I see is:

 

Quote

 

Realistically, border collies can no longer be solely bred for work, since there obviously is not enough work anymore for border collies.

 

 

Or put another way, "Realistically, far too many Border Collies are being bred, most of them by people who know &^$# all about working Border Collies and have &^%$ all work for them to do".

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are all kinds of things wrong with that Burhill site (and I believe they've been discussed at length ... anyone remember ... is that the chick that wouldn't sell to "overweight" people? now it just says that people need to be "physically active enough"...) ... but the latest one I see is:

 

 

 

That's quite a way to justify breeding dogs for ... for what? What do they breed for? Oh yeah. Nothing. Every heat.

 

[/size][/font]

 

So why can they advertise on the cbca website? Or do they just not care who advertises

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or put another way, "Realistically, far too many Border Collies are being bred, most of them by people who know &^$# all about working Border Collies and have &^%$ all work for them to do".

 

 

LOL- Why don't you tell us how you really feel Pearse :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...