Shetlander Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 And as for the quote "Empathize with your enemy," am I in a war here? Some people might consider this a war of sorts for the breed's future. We know there is a book, Border Collie Wars. I think it is a good quote and not just in regards to waging war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huskerdog (liz) Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Hob Nob of course is big (and crazy expensive) in the performance world. What were your issues regarding the other dogs? Both Lock Eye dogs I met had epilepsy. Red Dawn I used to like because the owner of the kennel was completely against breeding for conformation and such - the next thing you know she is co-owning dogs with Bayshore. The pup I met from her was a nice dog but had mange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Back in 2006, when the CKC announced that they would allow border collies into conformation events (as well as agility, obedience, tracking, and herding), a few of us tried to prevent it (by taking out memberships so we could vote on the issue, by posting on lists our position about the border collie's standard being work, and not appearance, and myriad other grassroots initiatives). I even posted the following on the largest agility list in Canada. ---------------------------------------- From AgilCan, Dec. 14, 2006 Re: BCs and CKC recognition - yikes Well, since we're throwing out straw men, here's mine. You are a hobby orchardist. You have plum trees. One plum tree in particular is beautiful, its trunk straight, its branches uniform and adorned with perfect blossoms. The fruit of the tree is awful – near-impermeable, with a bitter taste that no amount of cooking can overcome. But it's a beautiful tree. Its fruit – the original reason you planted it on your property – is not representative of a good plum tree, but the tree itself is very pretty. Your local country fair decides to add a category to its competition – prettiest blossoms. You enter a stem of your plum tree's blossoms, and you win. Other people see how pretty the blossoms are, and ask for grafts off your tree. Soon, everyone in your county has these beautiful trees. Well, maybe not everyone. There's that grumpy guy down the road who has the ugliest trees – gnarly branches, tiny flowers. Sure, the fruit those trees produce is delicious, but who really can eat that many plums? And those trees are really ugly and hard to maintain, what with their uneven branches and weird bark. He derides your puffy plum trees as not good representatives of the species. Well, what about that family in the neighbouring county? They are trying to create a new fruit by grafting to apples! He should be more concerned about THEM. You just want to have a prettier tree in your yard. And hey, if you wanted plums for eating, you could get them at the store. You're not a true orchardist – just a hobbyist. It's not up to YOU to uphold the fruit-bearing capacity of the plum tree. Your pretty, low-maintenance trees suit you and your neighbours just fine, and it's fun to compete in country fairs. About 10 years later, as you eat your tinned plum compote imported from England, you tell your kids about how you used to be able to eat the local plums, straight off the trees! They laugh – everyone knows that you don't EAT the plums that come off your trees. You eagerly await the summer, when those quaint heritage orchardists bring their fruit to the local market. It doesn't matter that you can no longer get plums from your tree in the backyard. You're not going to starve. I guess it also doesn't matter to most if the working border collie goes the way of so many other working breeds. I, for example, earn my living as a technology project manager, not by gathering yon sheep off yonder hill. I don't `need' a working border collie. But I also know that, when my big-headed border collie leaves my feet at just the softest `whhsht', and a few minutes later, he brings me the sheep, without me having to issue hardly any further instructions, well, it doesn't matter to me a jot what his topline is, or what colour his eyes are. The true working border collie has one standard against which he is measured, and that is the quality of his work. And it is breeding to this standard that has produced the dogs with whom many of us are lucky enough to be partnered in our dog sport endeavours. By introducing another standard based on basic appearance, without regard to instinct, work ethic, or talent, will result in a breed that is no longer a border collie. And that is my objection to allowing border collies to compete in CKC conformation. ---------------------- Did it make an impact? I got a few PMs, most supportive, one a little snotty. A few people "got it", most kinda shrugged. But we all do what we can, even if it feels like one's tilting at windmills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't think its convoluted at all. I think its a very simple concept. The Border Collie was created by farmers needing a good working sheepdog. They bred the dogs that worked best with the attributes they liked and voila the Border Collie imerged. It has been bred as a working dog for a couple hundred years by the people who needed a good working dog. Due to the nature of the work the Border Collie had to be intelligent, agile, have speed and also had to be able to think for himself but also be biddable to work with his owner and follow direction. He had to have an innate sense of working livestock. This is what makes a Border Collie a Border Collie. To breed him for some other purpose is not just to change what he is, but is IMHO the worst kind of disrespect for what he is. See? Very simple concept.>>>>> I agree. I have three smooth coat Border Collies, one a Welsh import and two strongly Welsh bred , born in USA. One at a time these dogs go to work with me, where they meet many many people , mostly horse owners. So many times I have been asked, "Is this a Border collie, and /or what is she mixed with?" Got that exact question this week of my Welsh import now retired trial dog. She is a poster child for the working border collie, has won ( with her former owner/handler) Open trials in the West , Nat'ls finalist, gone to Ireland to compete in the World Trial, etc. BUT she is smooth coated, quiet, mannered and that is not what people have in their minds for a Border Collie. If they watched tv dog shows they are fluffy, if they have a neighbor with one, it seems to frequently be "insane". No one can believe that a 6 month old Border Collie pup can walk around a huge warehouse quietly and gently meet customers, as my pup does, simply because their perception is often of a "crazed" dog spinning in circles or running a fenceline in the back yard. So let it suffice that I do explain the difference between the working Border collie, bred for hundreds of years to do just that--work livestock and the "newer" version , either the show collie or sport ( for lack of any other term) collie. And there is a world of difference and people do indeed understand it when told. So maybe one by one is how it will get done. Also I do believe the recent RFD programs from Horse and Country TV in Wales did alot to help people visualize what a Border collie is and should be, a working dog. Amazing how many people mention that series to me and ask if thats what my dogs do ( the answer is yes of course). For me and the people I meet this does not seem to be a tough concept to understand. And my experience has been that they are interested in learning about these dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 The Shetland Sheepdog was once a working stock dog. How many of them are there now? Two? And would they pass their ability on if they were bred to each other? Don't look now, but the Border Collie is on it's way there at a gallop. I bet you change your mind about the Border Collie dwindling, loosing their working ability , etc after you get to go to the Sonoma Sheepdog Trial . I feel the Border Collie is alive and well, but like anything worth saving it's an ongoing project. There will be approximately 80 dogs in the Open class, with many many more who could not get in that are on a wait list. That does not count the Nursery and Pro/Novice class numbers. I really hope you can make it there--I know you'll enjoy your time. Oh and for me I vote the name of ( my working ) Border Collie should be Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Ofcourse, now there will be several angry posts saying, "why should WE change the name of the dog?!" My answer is that you care about maintaining the split and The Fancy doesn't--- and if you care about something with every cell of your being, you will do what you need to do to preserve the thing that you love. Yeah, see ... the problem with this is that the working Border Collie has been around for many many years. The breed was created as a working breed. Not as an agility dog, or an obedience dog, or as a flyball dogs, or any of the other various things people do with these dogs. Once you start breeding for something other than working ability, like Joan said, they're not longer Border Collies. In any sense, it's moot because no one is going to change the name. And preserving the breed has nothing to do with the name. It has everything to do with the working ability ... not whether or not the dogs have "Early Takeoff Syndrome". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 And preserving the breed has nothing to do with the name. It has everything to do with the working ability ... not whether or not the dogs have "Early Takeoff Syndrome". So can that be done despite sport, conformation and pet breeders out there? Sort of the way there is a big (huge) split like you see in Labs? Field dogs, show dogs, pet dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 The Shetland Sheepdog was once a working stock dog. How many of them are there now? Two? And would they pass their ability on if they were bred to each other? Don't look now, but the Border Collie is on it's way there at a gallop. I bet you change your mind about the Border Collie dwindling, loosing their working ability , etc after you get to go to the Sonoma Sheepdog Trial . I feel the Border Collie is alive and well, but like anything worth saving it's an ongoing project. There will be approximately 80 dogs in the Open class, with many many more who could not get in that are on a wait list. That does not count the Nursery and Pro/Novice class numbers. I really hope you can make it there--I know you'll enjoy your time. Oh and for me I vote the name of ( my working ) Border Collie should be Border Collie. Oh, I'm well aware that there are a number of fine, high caliber stock dogs out there, (I'm almost through my DVDs of the Nationals,) and I do intend to go to the Sonoma trial, if only to get a clearer picture to transmit to my friends who have a fuzzy idea that "Border Collies used to herd sheep." But I live in an area where Border Collie means AKC "Golden in a tux." And people think they are all nuts. I think people have these ideas because the Border Collies they are likely to meet would tend to support this notion, and, at least where I live, (it's an urban environment,) Border Collies from working stock - let alone those that actually work - are as scarce as hen's teeth. I just think we're drowning in inauthentic Border Collies, and worry about them completely overwhelming the breed by sheer numbers,and by dilution of good working stock by interbreeding with the Barbies or the "Obstacle-course Rockets." When people question my assertion that my dog is a Border Collie and I try to explain working dogs, etc. They listen and ask, "Well, does your dog work sheep?" I have to say no, that I haven't the wherewithal to take her to sheep at at reasonable intervals. (And truly, although she doesn't look anything like a Barbie Collie, I have no idea if she has a lick of working talent. She's a rescue, so who knows if she's even all Border Collie.) I think the average person does form some hazy connection between black & white collie-type dogs and sheep, but they have no idea of how quickly the ability can be lost if not assiduously selected for. Nor do they have a grasp of the varied tasks and the complexity of the components that make up the mind of a useful stock dog. But herein lies the danger: people think that all that is necessary to reclaim the suite of behaviors that make for good working dogs, is to backcross to working lines occasionally. They also imagine some sort of occult instinct and ability that will suddenly blossom forth if the dog should happen to cross paths with a sheep. But it's really not only a case of "use it or lose it," but it must be the one and only ability that one strives for in breeding. Most of these non-working owners and worse, breeders, either are not clear on this or just don't give a damn. Hence my fear of the dwindling and eventual loss of the working Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Yeah, see ... the problem with this is that the working Border Collie has been around for many many years. The breed was created as a working breed. Not as an agility dog, or an obedience dog, or as a flyball dogs, or any of the other various things people do with these dogs. Once you start breeding for something other than working ability, like Joan said, they're not longer Border Collies. In any sense, it's moot because no one is going to change the name. And preserving the breed has nothing to do with the name. It has everything to do with the working ability ... not whether or not the dogs have "Early Takeoff Syndrome". I usually don't do this but I agree so much with the above that I wanted to post an article I wrote (and replace everything said in the article about conformation with agility). It was written around 15-20 years ago when AKC was "plotting" the "take over" of Border Collies. Guess what it's all come true :@( What will the next 15 years bring? No conformation required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 And as for the quote "Empathize with your enemy," am I in a war here? I think the central point to Liz's post wasn't the war analogy, but rather this: If you want to engage in discussion and changing people's minds, empathy and understanding of how they view the world is usually helpful. Not specifically to you, Joan. Just thought it was a good thing to point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 No, not just simple to ME, simple in that the whole concept is just plain non complex. If Roses are red and have always been red but someone decides they really like roses but a red rose does not fit in with their plans and then breeds for a yellow rose, is it still a red rose or is it now something different? Not a good analogy I think, but I'm working and trying to think of this while working. Now suppose growers of red roses started to tell those who are growing and purchasing yellow roses that yellow roses aren't really roses. They are something else because the only real roses are the ones that are grown to be red. Go to a place where there is nothing but yellow roses, the people who buy them and enjoy them have heard of red roses but don't really know much about them firsthand, and guess what? The idea that yellow roses are not really roses is flat out nonsense to the people growing and buying and enjoying yellow roses. Like you said, not a great analogy, but I think you can see the point if you try to forget about being smack in the thick of the fields of red roses and imagine that you have never seen one, don't know anything about them firsthand and to you the yellow roses are, in fact 100% rose. The concept itself may not be complex, but it can sound like utter nonsense to someone who does not have firsthand knowledge of the working bred Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Both Lock Eye dogs I met had epilepsy. Red Dawn I used to like because the owner of the kennel was completely against breeding for conformation and such - the next thing you know she is co-owning dogs with Bayshore. The pup I met from her was a nice dog but had mange. While I'm on a "tangent" ... the ones that "burn" me the most are the "ads" with my dogs can do everything. If you want to breed for agility then say ... I know NOTHING about working dogs - I breed for agility. (I still would still ask and what standard do you use??? Someone said biddable ... well biddable is listening for a whistle at 800 yards while working sheep === not running through a tunnel and looking at the handler to tell it where to go next). But if they love agility and that's all they want ... at least be honest and say "don't care if my dog works or not". I want to sell my dogs for $1,000+ because they win in agility. Don't say I breed to keep the working ability in the Border Collie (which adds up to an AKC course, titles, letters and whatevers). At least be honest and tell people that they are NOT buying a working dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 As much as education is heralded as the answer to this, I think this thread shows that education is not enough. Everyone views this topic through their own experiential lens, and what seems blantant to some is seen as completely outside the realm of consideration to others. Education is helping some see the border collie as still a working dog, but I fear far too slowly to save the border collie from its eventual end as a golden retriever in a tuxedo. While some are vested enough in the breed to learn about the politics involved and work to remain true to the breed, a far greater number of others being introduced to the breed see a border collie as a great sports dog who once herded sheep in England, the same way Irish setters used to hunt a long time ago. Breed books (and not just those published by the AKC) and Animal Planet tell us that border collies need a job--not herding sheep anymore because, goodness, who has sheep these days? But a job like fetching the newspaper or trying one of these great new activities like agility or flyball. I think that is what the general public understands, and I also agree that the vast majority of people has no interest in looking any deeper into the issue so many of us here hold so near to our hearts. Again, I am left thinking that while banning dual registration might not make a big enough impact to completely stop this trend, doing do will help protect our working border collies from being completely co-opted and bring about the much-heralded breed split a little faster--maybe even fast enough to save the working border collie after all. Yep...the split is our only hope...really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Some people might consider this a war of sorts for the breed's future. We know there is a book, Border Collie Wars. I think it is a good quote and not just in regards to waging war. the book is The Dog Wars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Back in 2006, when the CKC announced that they would allow border collies into conformation events (as well as agility, obedience, tracking, and herding), a few of us tried to prevent it (by taking out memberships so we could vote on the issue, by posting on lists our position about the border collie's standard being work, and not appearance, and myriad other grassroots initiatives). I even posted the following on the largest agility list in Canada. ---------------------------------------- From AgilCan, Dec. 14, 2006 Re: BCs and CKC recognition - yikes Well, since we're throwing out straw men, here's mine. You are a hobby orchardist. You have plum trees. One plum tree in particular is beautiful, its trunk straight, its branches uniform and adorned with perfect blossoms. The fruit of the tree is awful – near-impermeable, with a bitter taste that no amount of cooking can overcome. But it's a beautiful tree. Its fruit – the original reason you planted it on your property – is not representative of a good plum tree, but the tree itself is very pretty. Your local country fair decides to add a category to its competition – prettiest blossoms. You enter a stem of your plum tree's blossoms, and you win. Other people see how pretty the blossoms are, and ask for grafts off your tree. Soon, everyone in your county has these beautiful trees. Well, maybe not everyone. There's that grumpy guy down the road who has the ugliest trees – gnarly branches, tiny flowers. Sure, the fruit those trees produce is delicious, but who really can eat that many plums? And those trees are really ugly and hard to maintain, what with their uneven branches and weird bark. He derides your puffy plum trees as not good representatives of the species. Well, what about that family in the neighbouring county? They are trying to create a new fruit by grafting to apples! He should be more concerned about THEM. You just want to have a prettier tree in your yard. And hey, if you wanted plums for eating, you could get them at the store. You're not a true orchardist – just a hobbyist. It's not up to YOU to uphold the fruit-bearing capacity of the plum tree. Your pretty, low-maintenance trees suit you and your neighbours just fine, and it's fun to compete in country fairs. About 10 years later, as you eat your tinned plum compote imported from England, you tell your kids about how you used to be able to eat the local plums, straight off the trees! They laugh – everyone knows that you don't EAT the plums that come off your trees. You eagerly await the summer, when those quaint heritage orchardists bring their fruit to the local market. It doesn't matter that you can no longer get plums from your tree in the backyard. You're not going to starve. I guess it also doesn't matter to most if the working border collie goes the way of so many other working breeds. I, for example, earn my living as a technology project manager, not by gathering yon sheep off yonder hill. I don't `need' a working border collie. But I also know that, when my big-headed border collie leaves my feet at just the softest `whhsht', and a few minutes later, he brings me the sheep, without me having to issue hardly any further instructions, well, it doesn't matter to me a jot what his topline is, or what colour his eyes are. The true working border collie has one standard against which he is measured, and that is the quality of his work. And it is breeding to this standard that has produced the dogs with whom many of us are lucky enough to be partnered in our dog sport endeavours. By introducing another standard based on basic appearance, without regard to instinct, work ethic, or talent, will result in a breed that is no longer a border collie. And that is my objection to allowing border collies to compete in CKC conformation. ---------------------- Did it make an impact? I got a few PMs, most supportive, one a little snotty. A few people "got it", most kinda shrugged. But we all do what we can, even if it feels like one's tilting at windmills. It is wonderful analogy but I'm guessing that it went on way past the average person's 10 second attention span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't like the rose analogy because we don't use them for anything other than looking pretty. If you were instead talking about food, like red tomatoes vs yellow, and the yellows tasted bad and had no nutritional value, you would be closer to the issue at hand. Of course, as is sometimes the case with Border Collies, the ugly looking heirloom tomatoes are the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I'm starting to come more and more to the conclusion that the main risk to continuance of the working border collie and maintaining a high standard of working ability within our subculture that is apparently so convoluted, difficult, and onerous for the average person to understand or be expected to support, is to attempt to delay, amend, or prevent a split between dogs in the working community and pet, sport, and confo collies. Therefore, anything one could do to encourage or hasten separation would only help. After these weeks of discussion I am even more for banning dual registration that I was before. I don't think it will solve the whole issue or a panacea I do think it's a definite step in the right direction. When we wanted a bc I knew nothing AT ALL. Some of you may remember . But still, I googled border collies, easily found this site, spent an easy hour reading, and came away with the idea I should go to a farm. The breeder I found (not 45 min away from where GB lives btw) is certainly not a top notch working breeder. But they use their collies for very real work, and base their ownership of breeding stock primarily on that. I would not buy from them again knowing what I know now, but I really could have done much worse. Odin is IMHO at least an yellow circle dog and possibly a orange, only time will tell. but open level big hats have liked him fine, and more than one has said i sure got lucky for my first dog. I would not have been so lucky if not for this site. And thanks to him and this site, I'm in this for life now. The right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 this is an imperfect analogy for the reasons stated by Liz p but as a botanist I'd like to point out there are many, many species of plants that appear basically the same to the casual observer but are indeed separated as wholly different species, CONFIRMED by DNA analysis, and only separable in the field based on bloom color. Even further, this difference may not mean much to the average non-botanist, but could be very meaningful. I can think of at least one example where one species is endangered and the other is not, for instance. Now suppose growers of red roses started to tell those who are growing and purchasing yellow roses that yellow roses aren't really roses. They are something else because the only real roses are the ones that are grown to be red. Go to a place where there is nothing but yellow roses, the people who buy them and enjoy them have heard of red roses but don't really know much about them firsthand, and guess what? The idea that yellow roses are not really roses is flat out nonsense to the people growing and buying and enjoying yellow roses. Like you said, not a great analogy, but I think you can see the point if you try to forget about being smack in the thick of the fields of red roses and imagine that you have never seen one, don't know anything about them firsthand and to you the yellow roses are, in fact 100% rose. The concept itself may not be complex, but it can sound like utter nonsense to someone who does not have firsthand knowledge of the working bred Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't like the rose analogy because we don't use them for anything other than looking pretty. If you were instead talking about food, like red tomatoes vs yellow, and the yellows tasted bad and had no nutritional value, you would be closer to the issue at hand. Of course, as is sometimes the case with Border Collies, the ugly looking heirloom tomatoes are the best. The problem is that your proposed analogy would not work. Many of the people who purchase Border Collies from sport breeders, or backyard breeders, or conformation breeders, or get them from rescue and do not know their origin are quite happy with them. They don't, figuratively, "taste bad". They don't, figuratively "have no nutritional value". Sure, some have issues, but many suit their owners perfectly fine and even excel in the discipline of the owner's choice. Many may very well "taste" very little, if any, difference between their Border Collies and one that is working bred. And obviously, there are top level handlers in Agility who are more than happy with them because these Border Collies are taking them to the world team. Let me be clear - I am not saying that the non-working bred Border Collie is a perfect dog and is in some way "better" or something. What I am saying is that it is not the case that these Border Collie's owners are actually unhappy with them and somehow are unaware of it. If one is going to somehow convince sport enthusiasts that their Border Collies are non-real, it would be necessary to demonstrate that to them in a concrete way that they can relate to. Stockwork is not something that most sport enthusiasts can relate to, even if their dog of choice is the Border Collie, which was, of course, bred to work stock. I have come to understand that is a difficult concept for some who are involved with stockwork to grasp, but that is, in fact, the case. No analogy is perfect, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 They don't, figuratively "have no nutritional value". Yes ... they do have no "nutritional value." Whether or not the buyer wants to research what, if any, nutritional value they have is a different story altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 OK, so the yellow ones don't taste quite as good and have no nutritional value. The general public just doesn't know what they are missing because they are used to the factory farmed tomatoes already. If you haven't tried the "real thing" you don't know any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 From a previous post: "Make ability of dogs/parents on stock the single most important requirement for registration, to prevent this from happening again, and let the conformation, sport and "versatility" dogs evolve as they like." I like this idea - if we could ever come up with a way to implement it. I know it has come up before, with all the issues of how do you test for it, and is that too much like a title, and what about the dogs working the farm who don't trial and couldn't afford to travel to a test (or not enough manpower and money to send someone to the farm dogs). Otherwise it would be a great idea - a registry that actually means a dog can work - get one from that registry and you know exactly what you have. None of the current registries can say that - it's all one big mishmash, even if some are weighted more one way than the other. We would still have a lot of dogs running aroung that everyone thought of as border collies that were really, as you say, goldens in a tuxedo. Splitting registries, either a new working registry or banning dual registration, won't change the fact that border collies are immensely popular and people are going to continue to breed them for sports and that's what the general public is going to see. I really don't know what you do about that. John Q Public isn't going to ask how the dog is registered and then when told it's an AKC dog think "Oh, it's one of those fake border collies". They're all the same to him. One thing I thought with regard to the name change. The border collie might be better off to keep the same name on both sides even if the split develops. Think back to when the 'lassie' collie was once a border collie. What if we had continued to call them all 'collie's? Then when AKC took over 'their' version of the collie, they would eventually have looked at the working version and just said, "well those are just more collies, and pretty ugly ones at that, what do we want with them" and left them alone. Anyone could have ILP'd and neutered a working version collie into AKC for sports if they wanted, but they never would have been in the miscellaneous class and eventually forced to become an AKC breed, and they eventually became so different in every aspect that no one on earth would confuse the two. Keeping the same name may be a bit of a protection, since you can't take over what you already think you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 As the obedience world found out, agility is here to stay. USDAA, UKC, CPE, NADAC and now the UK import, UKI, all do not require a pedigree and therefor banning dual registration is not going to stem the rapid increase in interest in these venues. They are all still going to suck up working bred, sports bred, Barbie bred and sh!t bred (like mine I guess) border collies regardless of the registration organization. Banning dual registration will only help keep ABCA registered dogs out of the hands of the AKC which no longer is the only major player out there(and may in fact be losing it's grip at that). However, if the bulk membership of the ABCA feels that banning dual registrations is what is needed, then using this from the ABCA home page is the way to go: "We are a member-owned registry with over 9000 members (Life and Annual), and we provide a full range of services to members in good standing. Our activities are overseen by a Board of Directors elected by the membership." If those of you who feel strongly that banning dual registration is the way to go, you will elect a Board that is of your thinking, you will attend the membership meeting where ever it may be at what ever time it is set for, you will put forth your motion and vote in number the way your heart tells you to. If you are unwilling to travel to said meeting at said time, then there is no real point for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Oh, I'm well aware that there are a number of fine, high caliber stock dogs out there, (I'm almost through my DVDs of the Nationals,) and I do intend to go to the Sonoma trial, if only to get a clearer picture to transmit to my friends who have a fuzzy idea that "Border Collies used to herd sheep." But I live in an area where Border Collie means AKC "Golden in a tux." And people think they are all nuts. I think people have these ideas because the Border Collies they are likely to meet would tend to support this notion, and, at least where I live, (it's an urban environment,) Border Collies from working stock - let alone those that actually work - are as scarce as hen's teeth. I just think we're drowning in inauthentic Border Collies, and worry about them completely overwhelming the breed by sheer numbers,and by dilution of good working stock by interbreeding with the Barbies or the "Obstacle-course Rockets." When people question my assertion that my dog is a Border Collie and I try to explain working dogs, etc. They listen and ask, "Well, does your dog work sheep?" I have to say no, that I haven't the wherewithal to take her to sheep at at reasonable intervals. (And truly, although she doesn't look anything like a Barbie Collie, I have no idea if she has a lick of working talent. She's a rescue, so who knows if she's even all Border Collie.) I think the average person does form some hazy connection between black & white collie-type dogs and sheep, but they have no idea of how quickly the ability can be lost if not assiduously selected for. Nor do they have a grasp of the varied tasks and the complexity of the components that make up the mind of a useful stock dog. But herein lies the danger: people think that all that is necessary to reclaim the suite of behaviors that make for good working dogs, is to backcross to working lines occasionally. They also imagine some sort of occult instinct and ability that will suddenly blossom forth if the dog should happen to cross paths with a sheep. But it's really not only a case of "use it or lose it," but it must be the one and only ability that one strives for in breeding. Most of these non-working owners and worse, breeders, either are not clear on this or just don't give a damn. Hence my fear of the dwindling and eventual loss of the working Border Collie.>>> It goes to illustrate how diverse one's experiences are that form the varying opinions we all have. I actually live about 45 minutes from you and have a different take on things as concerns the working Border Collie. My friend has a sheep co-op about 30 mintues from you, on an old ranch which is now a city park. Folks can come down there and have her try their dogs on sheep and she gives lessons. In the past it has been to all herding type breeds, not sure if that it still is. I think, like many activities one has to seak them out as they are not always readily visible without it. Hope to meet you at Sonoma trial I sure hope the weather holds for us. I will be the nervous one with a wonderful dog, as this will be only my third Open trial, with the one at Zamora next month being the second. I do believe that one can have an "authentic" Border Collie, ( to address your "unauthentic" description without working any stock. But I also beleive the true Border Collie should stay the course and be bred for what it was developed for, working stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 OK, so the yellow ones don't taste quite as good and have no nutritional value. The general public just doesn't know what they are missing because they are used to the factory farmed tomatoes already. If you haven't tried the "real thing" you don't know any better. So, demonstrating concrete differences to them in a way that they can relate to is, in my estimation, the only option that will bring about actual education. One can sit around talking about tomatoes all day long and one can call other people's tomatoes by different names or say that their tomatoes aren't real, but none of that serves to change that person's perception of the tomatoes with which they are perfectly content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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