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Annie Bit My son


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I am not a happy camper today. While I was at work yesterday, my older son (mid-30’s) stopped in to visit with DW. Now, for some reason that I am at a loss to understand, Annie (who usually loves everyone) HATES my older son, but loves his wife and kids as well as my younger son. When he comes over with the family, Annie will play with the rest of the family, but does everything in her power to stay away from my son. (Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that my son is a cat lover, and doesn’t really warm up to dogs.) The three of them (DW, son, and dog) were in the living room, and my son tried to force himself on Annie. He basically cornered her, ignoring the fact that her tail was between her legs, and tried to pet her. Annie suddenly turned and snapped at him, nipping him but not hard enough to break the skin. She knew she did wrong; even before DW had a chance to yell (and she did yell), Annie made a bee-line for her den. For the rest of the day she looked sheepish and contrite, and would not even go and get her toys to play. When I got home from work, she wouldn’t even come to greet me; she just rlay motionless in the middle of the living room with the saddest eyes I’ve ever seen, as if to say, “I may not always be right, but I’m always willing to be forgiven”. Later that night, when I got home from work again (I often have to return to work late at night for international business teleconferences), as we were both lying on the bed and I was ignoring her, she slowly inched herself closer to me (usually she comes over and plops herself down next to me) and gradually snuck her nose under my hand; as I said, she knew that she was wrong. We did not need to punish her; her remorseful conduct was enough in and of itself to show that she understood the error of her ways. This morning, all was forgiven (or more likely, forgotten), and everything was back to normal.

 

I don’t excuse what Annie did; but my son used poor judgment in forcing himself on her, knowing that she doesn’t like him, and by therefore initiating a fear-aggressive response. We now know that she will have to be confined to her den whenever he comes over for a visit in the future. I spoke to my vet about the incident this morning, and she agreed with my assessment (fear-aggression response to specific circumstances), so no medical intervention is required.

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Hmm, if someone was pushy, disrespectful and rude and persisted on wanting to touch me even though I said no I would bite them too. I wouldn't even be upset with the dog and I would consider the way she acted after the fact not an indication that she knew that she was wrong but rather that the poor dog was feeling unsafe and violated in her own home. Sorry, that type of stuff pisses me off, leave the fricken dog alone, there is something about you that she don't care for.

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Poor Annie...give her a hug and a biscuit and tell her you understand.

 

 

A tough situation, but Annie is not to blame. She was clearly forced into a defensive position and technically if it doesn't break the skin, it's not a bite, an important distinction. She could have really savaged him, but she didn't. She just gave enough of a warning for him to back off and she was a good girl for controlling herself that well. When we got Scotty as a rescue, he was at risk for doing that to everybody who tried to pet him, unless it was his decision to go up to them.

 

Annie hasn't forgotten the incident. Our Ladybug who was sent to the pound for snapping at a toddler that was pulling her hair, definitely remembers that she was severely punished for her actions and when she sees a toddler, her lip curls just a little bit. So, she's not around toddlers. If we're out walking and I see one approaching, we cross the street because when it comes down to it, most people just don't get it when it comes to approaching strange dogs. She's also fearful of strange women, especially older ones, and refuses to let one pet her and I warn people of that when I see them coming as well. She won't even let my mother-in-law pet her -- and its been four years of nightly visits. She'll take treats and bring her a ball to throw, but she will not let MiL touch her. It makes me wonder if some old lady (baby sitter perhaps) beat the heck out of her when she snapped at the toddler. Whatever it was that happened, Ladybug remembers.

 

Because of Annie's memory and her potential fear that the situation might prove threatening once again, it is best to either put her in her crate, or leash her by your side when your son comes to visit - if he'll obey strict instructions to not bother her ever again. Not everybody has to like everybody in this world :rolleyes:. We've all just got to find a way to get along.

 

Liz

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I think the humans failed Annie. She clearly communicated- leave me alone. Your wife should have protected her so that she did not have to act on her own. That being said- hind sight is 20-20. Annie trusts you, for whatever reason she is uncomforable with your son. Your plan of action sounds good - but please hug Annie and tell her it is okay.

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I'm with the others - your son was really stupid and asked to get bit. It doesn't sound like she was even trying to bite him, more of a "stay out of my space" warning after he didn't pay attention to the other warning signs, - what did he expect?

 

as I said, she knew that she was wrong. We did not need to punish her; her remorseful conduct was enough in and of itself to show that she understood the error of her ways. This morning, all was forgiven (or more likely, forgotten), and everything was back to normal.

 

She was scared. She wasn't safe in her own home and had been pushed way over the edge of her comfort zone into doing something that was very out of character for her. Think along the lines of how you'd feel if there was a thug breaking into your house and you had to shoot him to keep yourself from harm. You'd feel awful, but what else where you supposed to do?

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He basically cornered her, ignoring the fact that her tail was between her legs, and tried to pet her. Annie suddenly turned and snapped at him, nipping him but not hard enough to break the skin.

 

Why would your son think she would do anything less, given that he obviously scared her to the point that she felt threatened?

 

If she is scared of your son for whatever reason (and does it really matter why?) just have him leave her alone and you will likely not have any more problems.

 

And it really irks me when someone yells at a dog for something the human did wrong.

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...but please hug Annie and tell her it is okay.

Every night before Annie goes into her den, she gets a special treat, a duck and potato biscuit. And every morning, before I go to work, she gets a vigorous back scratch and then a hug before I take her out and then feed her. Last night, she got her treat; after all, enough was enough, and she was sorry. This morning, she got her traditional back scratch and her hug; so as far as she is concerned, all is right with the world. Of course, her attitude might change when she doesn't get to go out and play ball today with DW while I am at work; an ice storm last night that covered the porch, deck and ground, compounded by sub-zero wind chill factors today, will keep her indoors for the day.

 

And it really irks me when someone yells at a dog for something the human did wrong.

So noted. And rest assured, we almost NEVER yell at Annie; she is a very sensitive dog, and takes ANY loud noise personally. But in this case, immediate non-violent intervention (we NEVER hit our dogs) was appropriate to ensure that Annie understood that biting is not acceptable, regardless of the circumstances; so I stand by DW's response at the time. What is appropriate to understand is the fact that DW only yelled once, and did nothing to continue to punish her (she even snuck her some chicken under that table at dinner last night when she thought I wasn't looking, not realizing that I had done the same thing); Annie's penance thereafter was self-induced.

 

Let's be honest. Look at her face. Could you stay mad at her? :rolleyes:

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Going with everyone else here --- human error --- not canine error and I see no reason why Annie should be crated if they're over unless it's for her own security. If she's never gone after your son before, I don't see a need to confine her.

 

What does your son think about the entire situation?

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At the risk of beating a really dead horse, Annie is NOT 'sorry' or 'remorseful', she is scared. A human she has repeatedly told, "Hey, I don't like you" forced himself on her, when she warned him off - make no mistake, if she had wanted to, she could have done some serious damage - and then she was yelled at. She went into the den because she was feeling very unsafe in the living room.

 

Her safe haven was damaged, she's frightened that she isn't safe any more, and her tentative actions towards you are not apologies, they are inquiries, "Is this all right, am I going to be yelled at or invaded again?"

 

Give your son strict instructions, he is not to approach Annie at all, ever again. If he won't respect your wishes and Annie's needs, then Annie must be confined when he is over.

 

Ruth

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Poor Annie! I think everyone on the Board knows how much you love Annie and it's a tough situation when family members (Annie and your son) just don't get along. Your son is fortunate that his poor judgment didn't end up with a serious injury. It's likely that Annie will feel much safer in her den when your son visits.

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Ruth really hit the nail on the head. I really hate that people have a strict "dog must never bite under any circumstance". They ain't robots and we shouldn't assign one of the "3 Robot rules" (Issac Asimov) to them. Annie clearly did not bite as bad as she could have. To me, a dog that bites and then stops is in no way a vicious dog. A vicious dog just keeps going at a person or animal. Tell your son he was the one in the wrong and leave poor Annie alone. She did good under the circumstances.

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While I agree that the "bite" was provoked, and Annie should be held blameless, I do think it would be a good idea to try to get to the bottom of why she dislikes/fears your brother. I especially think that it's important now that she has had this experience where she was feeling threatened enough to bite.

 

Whatever trigger is causing her to fear/dislike him may be present in another person that she has not yet met. There was a case in some training book wherein a dog's occasional and unpredictable antipathy to a family friend was traced to an experience she had when she was young. The dog had been set upon and kicked by a pizza delivery-boy when she was a youngster. It was discovered that the friend whom the dog sometimes reacted so badly to had eaten at a pizza parlor just before visiting. Each time he had had pizza the dog had threatened him. With a little desensitizing work with the dog encountering people that smelled of pizza, she was able to build positive associations and befriend the family friend she had previously feared.

 

It would be unfortunate for all concerned if the trigger that causes Annie's reaction was present in someone new. She might feel very threatened and try to bite. Of course, if Annie is a rescue dog it will be harder or possibly impossible to remember/ know about some frightening experience she had before you got her. But think it over. It could be something as simple as the scent of an aftershave or brand of shampoo that mentally puts her back into a bad situation. I heard once about a horse that would bolt or kick at the sight of a man wearing a black cowboy hat because he was once badly hurt by a man wearing one.

 

You may never get to the bottom of it, but it's worth giving it some thought.

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At the risk of beating a really dead horse, Annie is NOT 'sorry' or 'remorseful', she is scared. A human she has repeatedly told, "Hey, I don't like you" forced himself on her, when she warned him off - make no mistake, if she had wanted to, she could have done some serious damage - and then she was yelled at. She went into the den because she was feeling very unsafe in the living room.

 

Her safe haven was damaged, she's frightened that she isn't safe any more, and her tentative actions towards you are not apologies, they are inquiries, "Is this all right, am I going to be yelled at or invaded again?"

 

Give your son strict instructions, he is not to approach Annie at all, ever again. If he won't respect your wishes and Annie's needs, then Annie must be confined when he is over.

 

Ruth

 

I agree 100%. One of the biggest mistakes people tend to make is put human emotions on an animal. Guilt is a human emotion. Fear and distrust are most likely behind her behavior that night she seemed 'sorry'.

 

Also, she has no idea that she's getting the extra chicken under the table because of what happened. The incident at this point is too far removed from her mind.

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While I agree that the "bite" was provoked, and Annie should be held blameless, I do think it would be a good idea to try to get to the bottom of why she dislikes/fears your brother. I especially think that it's important now that she has had this experience where she was feeling threatened enough to bite.

 

Whatever trigger is causing her to fear/dislike him may be present in another person that she has not yet met. There was a case in some training book wherein a dog's occasional and unpredictable antipathy to a family friend was traced to an experience she had when she was young. The dog had been set upon and kicked by a pizza delivery-boy when she was a youngster. It was discovered that the friend whom the dog sometimes reacted so badly to had eaten at a pizza parlor just before visiting. Each time he had had pizza the dog had threatened him. With a little desensitizing work with the dog encountering people that smelled of pizza, she was able to build positive associations and befriend the family friend she had previously feared.

 

It would be unfortunate for all concerned if the trigger that causes Annie's reaction was present in someone new. She might feel very threatened and try to bite. Of course, if Annie is a rescue dog it will be harder or possibly impossible to remember/ know about some frightening experience she had before you got her. But think it over. It could be something as simple as the scent of an aftershave or brand of shampoo that mentally puts her back into a bad situation. I heard once about a horse that would bolt or kick at the sight of a man wearing a black cowboy hat because he was once badly hurt by a man wearing one.

 

You may never get to the bottom of it, but it's worth giving it some thought.

 

 

According to the OP, she's always disliked that particular family member...but liked his wife and kids.

 

Our dear old Woofer was also teased by a delivery man when he was young and absolutely hated anyone in any kind of uniform. He didn't say a woof when our truck was stolen, but when the policeman came to take the report, he went after him like he was the criminal!

 

And Annie will remember, I'd bet money on it.

 

Liz

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My dog remembers. Reeeeeally long. The dog who came at us in the scuffle that sent me for stitches last May, for example. Buddy does not want to be within 50 yards of that dog. (The owner, meanwhile, will walk the dog right up next to us while we wait at a crosswalk for the light - as my dog growls and lunges. Hello...? The blood? The hopsital? The rabies vaccination records you had to fax?)

 

But, having said that, Buddy can learn to undo his typical bad responses to certain people and dogs, given enough time, space, and positive experiences. He has numerous former "enemies" who are now friends, because they've gotten used to each other or because the other owners carries hot dogs. :rolleyes:

 

I think there's the probability that your son could undo the fear Annie now feels. Whether he wants to is another matter - I think either situation is understandable. Annie won't be damaged by hanging out in another room when there are visitors.

 

Mary

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I can empathize with you. Some of you may remember the incident at Thanksgiving when Scooter bit my niece on the hand, seemingly without provocation. He had previously marked near or on her twice before that. Scooter is a party animal--the more people here, the better. There was just something about my niece that he didn't like. I'll probably never know what triggered the bite, or his dislike for her.

 

Everyone here reassured me that Scooter wasn't turning into a vicious dog. Annie isn't either. At least you have some idea what caused her to bite and can intervene before it happens again.

 

Give her a hug from Scooter and me! :rolleyes:

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Whatever trigger is causing her to fear/dislike him may be present in another person that she has not yet met.

This may be true, but it seems to me that in Annie's case she made it clear she didn't like the son by *avoiding* him. She didn't react badly until the son fornced himself on her and Annie felt she had no choice but to defend herself. This wasn't a surprise attack where they need to figure out what triggered it. They *know* what triggered it: the son, whom Annie tries to avoid because of apparent dislike, forced the issue with her. I don't take that to mean that she'd bite the next person who triggers the "don't like" response in her. She'd do like she's done with the son in the past, which is to attempt to avoid contact. I get that you're saying it would be nice to know what it is about the son that bothers Annie, but I don't take that to mean that Annie's a threat to anyone who might somehow be similar to the son--unless that person should also try to force him/herself on Annie. But since Annie has always given clear signals of her dislike in the past, there's no reason that a similar dislike for someone else would ever escalate to that point because presumably, even though they failed Annie this time, her owners would not in the future allow anyone to push Annie past the point of no return as the son was *allowed* to do.

 

Bustopher,

As others have said, this is a clear case of human failure. I can't believe you went so far as to ignore her as some sort of punishment. The one who should have been punished was your son (and your wife for not stopping him from terrorizing Annie in the first place). While it may make sense to confine Annie to her den when your son visits for Annie's sake, I think it also makes sense to tell your son to leave her the hell alone and let Annie live in her house in peace.

 

J.

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Julie,

I totally agree that Annie didn't snap because she didn't like the brother. She snapped because she was cornered by the brother, and retreating (her usual strategy) was no longer an option for her. Her reactions later, described as contrition and remorse, were more likely to be residual fear and a sense of helplessness because her humans failed to protect her even though she was clearly signaling her distress. My concern - and it may be unwarranted, I don't know the dog or her history - is that having experienced this situation where she felt she was forced to defend herself, she may be more easily frightened by someone who is presenting the same sort of scent/ behavior/appearance that made her initially uneasy with the brother.

 

It's equally possible that she may simply take earlier evasive action and be careful not to allow herself to be cornered by someone who she doesn't like/trust/whatever.

 

In any case, she was obviously shaken by the incident, and I personally feel that this is likely to undermine her confidence and trust in her people to be there for her when things get scary. That is why I feel that she should be worked with - to help her feel safe, and to figure out, not why she snapped - that is obvious - but why she didn't like that person in the first place. As someone else said, a dog doesn't need to be in love with everyone. But I always try to work out why my dog dislikes an individual - not necessarily to try to make her like that person - but to get a sense of what sort of things/people/situations are likely to make her uncomfortable. Sometimes I can figure it out, sometimes not. But it's always worth a little effort to understand the whys and wherefores of my dog's perceptions of the world and what's in it.

 

Lest people think I am being too critical of her owners, let me say that yes, I think the situation was handled badly. But people make mistakes sometimes - I've certainly made my share, and some with worse consequences that this one is likely to have. The situation was brought to the Boards for feedback and help. This is the best I have to offer. I agree that keeping her comfortable when the brother is around is important. And if crating is the best way to accomplish that then so be it. My best wishes to all concerned.

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An alternative topic heading could be - "Annie showed my son the consequences of a really poor behaviour choice".

 

Sorry it had to happen, Bustopher, but as others have said, sounds like Annie was within her rights, and made a proportionate response, exercising great self-control - good dog, Annie.

 

On a more serious note, I guess this means that maybe you all need to be a little more vigilant (not that you haven't been in the past) about not having Annie put into a situation she finds fearful or threatening, especially with really young or old people, for whom an inhibited nip migth in fact be more of a problem (delicate skin).

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Long topic.

 

Frankly Bus I think your son is the one who should be in trouble not Annie. He should know better than to bother a dog that doesn't like him. I also don't think it's fair that Annie should be isolated when he comes over. After all it is her house.

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I don't think putting a dog in her crate in a quiet part of the house when there is company that makes the dog uneasy should be portrayed as "unfair" or a punishment for the dog. Put her back there with something good to chew -- I would hope Bustopher would give Annie a BULLY STICK!! :rolleyes: -- and maybe let the kids or other visitors that the dog is fond of take her for a short walk after dinner, or whatever. But dogs aren't like humans whose feelings get hurt if they aren't invited to a party! It's best to manage for safety of all concerned. Remember how high the risk is to a dog who bites.

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