Dog Training

[BorderCollieSam]

Just a question from reading another thread earlier on this afternoon regarding a dog somebody rescued a few years ago. The Poster mentioned that the dog had obviously had a lot of time and money spent on it as it was very well trained.

 

My question is, to have a well trained dog do you 'have' to spend a lot of money?

 

I haven't taken Sam to any obedience classes, not because i begrudge paying out money on him, but because i wanted the satisfaction and the feeling of accomplishment of doing it myself with him.

 

OK, so Sam isn't perfect, and he's certainly not the best trained dog out there, however i think for his age '1 yr', and the non-professional dog training background of myself, i'm both pleased with myself and also most importantly Sam with the progress he has made in this year.

 

I've posted Sams most recent video (which i found quite funny watching it afterwards (hope it gives you a giggle as well!)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAuy2AJRQPo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy8R7w2Douc

 

Moving on from the above, i'm running out of things to teach him. Does anybody have any ideas? I would absolutely LOVE to be able to give him the opportunity of working sheep, however this option isn't open to me and i don't think it ever will, as i don't have the money for any land to store the sheep on, i mentioned it to my wife the other day and she said i have very expensive hobbies!

 

I've been thinking of agility, i mentioned when Sam was around 3 months old about teaching him to jump through tires but somebody advised against that due to his young age, however i think this will be ok now.

 

Any other ideas on training would be very much appreciated.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I don't think you have to spend money on your dogs to have a well trained dog....I think you have to spend time with your dog to have a well trained dog!

 

That being said, I've taken Loose leash walking, obedience, recall, a canine communication class and a reactive dog class now we're entered into a tricks class starting in January. I take these classes with my dog because I need a controlled environment where I can work with my dog on her triggers and issues. Not to mention, she really, really enjoys working and using that little brain of hers! I foster dogs for a rescue and taking classes also ensures that my dog gets her "one on one" time too! I also think it helps with the human-canine bond. The dog I have in my sights to adopt will also take classes with me, but we're going to try agility or another activity that I can't do with Daisy.

 

I find it very useful taking classes because my instructor is an extra set of eyes. When I'm having issues with something, she's pretty good at showing my what I'm doing wrong. I'm not trying to push taking a class or anything at all, but if you're thinking about doing agility, you should take classes. A proper instructor will show you how to train your dog right to reduce risk of injury etc.

 

One thing I did notice from your video though is that you are repeating the "stay" command a lot. I would work on only having to say it one time until release. I would also make a mental note of how far you are away from him when he breaks his stay and work at that distance for a while until he's good at it and then increase the distance. I've taught my dog both verbal commands and hand signals that she will obey from a distance. It's pretty nice to have her recall with a hand signal because when she's too far away I don't have to yell!

[IPSY]

Daisy Duke is right on the money when she said you dont need to spend alot of money to have a well trained dog , you need to spend alot of tim to have a well trained dog.

But to attend good training classes is always a god idea . To have a knowledgable instructor there to guide you both through the tough times is pricelss. If you want to seriously train you will need to take classes .. First obedience , then whatever you decide to do with your dog , like agility , flyball, freestyle, herding etc...But do take obedience classes , because by the time you guys are ready to move on to something else , your dog will be physically ready to move on as well. And you will need the basics to be able to attempt anything else anyway. And the new people you meet at these classes might be able to point you towards more K9 activities.

By then you will know what sports your dog is geared for .

The world is your oyster when you have a new pup ! Good luck and enjoy !

[IPSY]

Woops , sorry I meant "Miss Daisy Duke"

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi daisy and ipsy

 

our local vets charge a lot of money and training is undertaken in the waiting room!

 

I know people who I have met whilst walking who have attended obedience classes and there dogs run riot and they ask me how I got my dog to recall like he does.

 

I think Sam is obedient allready and don't think an obedience class will benefit us anymore than we are allready, however I would love to be able to find a sheep herding course/class where you can take your own dog.

 

I think an agility class would also be good for his and myself.

 

I just don't think the obedience class will benefit him anymore than we are allready doing,I think it's just repetition and time which will pull everything together.

 

Daisy, I will definetely try that advice on the 'stay', we don't practice the stay command as much as we should, we spend too much time mountain biking, playing fetch, and practicing his downing, as Sam really likes cycling with me and I really like seeing a dog downing!

 

Will let you know how the stay progresses!

[mum24dog]

I think an agility class would also be good for his and myself.

 

I echo what the others have said about learning to train properly for it and that does mean classes.

Finding a good class that doesn't have a very long waiting list is very difficult though so you need to get on it now.

Our club isn't in an area where there is as much pressure on places as in the south, and there is another class a couple of miles away to take some of the heat off us, but the first vacancy we are likely to have is February 2011. The youngest dog ever to go on the waiting list was 2 weeks old.

I'd advise against fun classes. You may think that you will never want to compete but you never know and often a dog needs significant retraining if it has not been taught properly from the start.

 

Have a look here for possible classes in your area -

 

http://www.agilitynet.co.uk/clutch/clubs.htm

 

As for the necessity for general training classes as opposed to training in the real world - they have their place but too many people rely on them entirely and think that a class once a week is going to result in a well trained dog. Real world training is essential and plenty of people who don't have great ambitions for their dog end up with a perfectly good pet without ever going near one.

The place of a good training class is to teach the student how to train using up to date methods that conform with what we now know about how a dog learns. People who last went to a class 15+ years ago will find a huge change in the way things are done. (Finding a good class isn't always easy though. Too many are stuck in the old ways.)

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

One thing I did notice from your video though is that you are repeating the "stay" command a lot. I would work on only having to say it one time until release. I would also make a mental note of how far you are away from him when he breaks his stay and work at that distance for a while until he's good at it and then increase the distance.

 

And don't walk backwards.

If the dog breaks its stay, return it to the spot it was left on, but, as you say, best not to get to that point. Always set the dog up for success by working withing its comfort zone. Never getting to the point where it breaks produces a much more reliable stay than one where the dog is constantly having to be corrected.

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

I can't help thinking of that obedience class teacher out of Marley and Me

 

The teacher where she blows the whistle and the dog standpedes her!

 

Do you agree that it is possible to have a really well trained dog by training him yourself?

 

I think I've done ok sofar and both Sam and myself are still learning, I guess I just want the pleasure and satisfaction of training him myself.

 

I'll get there, watch this space!

[BorderCollieSam]

Out of interest, how many people on these forums have attended classes?

 

I would be interested in knowing....

 

My goal at this moment in time is to get Sam to stay at one end of the field whilst I walk to the other, that will be an acomplishment!

 

Ill get there, watch this space as they say!

[mbc1963]

Interesting thread!

 

I think you can, indeed, have a well-trained dog by training him yourself. I also think that taking some classes with a GOOD trainer can help you be a much better trainer yourself, so people who've done classes with a good trainer probably have some better-trained dogs. Just as an example: the first few weeks I had my dog, when he was off-leash, he'd run at me, very fast, and knock into my legs. I said something to my trainer like, "He's just playing and doesn't understand not to do that." My trainer promptly replied, "Does he run into oak trees?" ("No.") "Then he knows what he's doing." Immediate clarity on that point.

 

I also watched this very good trainer teach dog after dog after dog to sit patiently and wait for a person to approach for petting, rather than jumping and lunging. He'd have them all sitting calmly within minutes. Impressed me a lot, and even though my dog's not a jumper, the overall technique (not to reward until appropriate behavior is modeled) helped me treatly as I trained Buddy.

 

However, I've met some people who are obviously BAD trainers, too. There's a woman who walks a pack of small dogs in the local woods. They charge me and my reactive dog, who's on leash. They stand around us in a yapping puddle as she tries to call them off and fails, mostly. She says, "I'm a trainer. It's fine. Just walk right by."

 

REALLY, LADY? You're a trainer, and you think it's fine to let a pack of dogs run at a stranger, barking at her? I've met her several times. We've learned that encounters with her aren't fatal - her dogs don't actually get in Buddy's face, so he doesn't get reactive - but they're still a difficult situation I have to deal with. Oy. Heaven protect me from trainers like that one.

 

Mary

[mum24dog]

Do you agree that it is possible to have a really well trained dog by training him yourself?

 

Depends what you call "really well trained". It's obviously possible to train a dog to a decent standard on your own if you know the basics of how to train, but noone knows it all. There is always room for learning something new and better and there is no shame in accepting help and advice from the right people. Heck, I've even been known to pick the brains of someone I wouldn't let within half a mile of my dog because I thought she'd know the answer.

People at the top of their own dog activity go to other people to train and learn new ways. They don't think it is beneath them. Ego doesn't come into it when you want to perform as well as you possibly can. (Well at least with the successful people I know it doesn't.) It would be counterproductive to refuse to benefit from other people's knowledge and experience.

 

My own training history is that I learned how to train as a child - the way it was done then. I did a bit of competitive Obedience and hung around Working Trials. Then I had a long break from dog ownership and went back to class with my first dog as an adult. I thought I knew what I was doing and the class was still using the methods I had learned 35 years before, but I had changed in that time and felt rather uncomfortable with it all. Fortunately I changed to a different class and my whole approach totally altered. I learned so much that was different and I am much more comfortable with what I am doing now.

 

Would I go to a class with a new dog now? Probably not for everyday stuff. For specialist training, yes.

I can continue my self education on line to a large extent, but there's no substitute for personal contact if you want to excel.

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

Pam, you sound like you were in exactly the same position as myself.

 

I always had dogs when i was young, and trained all my dogs myself and they reached quite a good standard and people would comment on how responsive and well trained they were, i had a female bc when i was around 14ish and spent all my evenings and weekends with her, whilst my mates were out doing the courting thing i was with my dog!

 

And then i had a break for many years until i got Sam in January and i'm now 37, so very similar circumstances to yourself, was strange reading your post!

 

I suppose you could call it an 'ego' thing, not in a nasty big headed type of way, but just that i would love the feeling of accomplishing something all on my own without any outside influence.....and when somebody asks 'did you take him to obedience classes', and i say 'yes', and they think to themselves 'oh, i thought he would have had to have somebody train him, you would never be able to train a dog like that yourself....', whereas if i answered 'no', they would realise the bond and connection and hard work that went into it on both Sams and my part.

[mum24dog]

when somebody asks 'did you take him to obedience classes', and i say 'yes', and they think to themselves 'oh, i thought he would have had to have somebody train him, you would never be able to train a dog like that yourself....',

 

But whether you go to classes or not, you are the one doing the training.

I gave a T-shirt to my instructor once that said "I am the Instructor - You are the Trainer".

Training classes don't train your dog - they just help you to do the job.

Does it honestly matter what you imagine others may or may not think? The satisfaction of building a bond with your dog should be sufficient reward in itself. Don't do it for an audience - do it for yourself and Sam.

 

I can tell you the biggest buzz I've ever had with my dogs was to see my first one come running towards me. It doesn't sound much, but to get a dog that couldn't care less about people (except as food dispensers) and that had spent the first year of his life doing exactly as he pleased, and with a strong chase drive too, actually to want to come was the greatest achievement I've had in training -and yet anyone watching would just think "So what - your dog comes when it's called?"

 

Pam

[alligande]

I think it might depend on your definition of well trained. Most of the people on this board are very serious about their dogs, among our friends we are known for having really well behaved dogs, but I am sure that compared to many dogs on this board they are not.

 

I think the magic word is time...not money

 

My wonderful GSDx who passed a couple of months ago was self trained by necessity. She was nuts when I got her 14 years ago at about 8 months old and at the time our shelter did not have any of the marvelous support systems they have today. They told me I needed to take classes which was obvious but I could not get in a class for 2.5 months and by that time I had read lots of books and Jester knew all the basics not well but enough to muddle by. She would never have competed in an obedience competition, but she was a very well behaved companion, certified therapy dog and I should say best friend. My 2 Border collies have also never gone to classes with me, but I know my current dog went with his old family and my late Bandit just came from the shelter knowing all the basics and a great recall

 

I learned a lot by the experience and I now know that I made things hard on myself and Jester by using methods that are no longer in favor, but we got there and she was always willing to forgive.

 

Now though I train in agility every week. When I started taking agility classes I did not realize I was starting along the path to a lifetime commitment, I was naive enough to think that I could work my way through the classes offered and then I would have an agility dog, now of course I realize how complex the sport is and to be successful human and dog have to put in the time.

[urge to herd]

Echoing what Pam says - dog trainers train you to train your dog. Every trainer I've gone to in the past 13 years has said the same thing, and more to the point, patiently pointed out what I was doing wrong, not what the dog was doing wrong.

 

When we get another dog(s), you can bet I'll take the dog to appropriate classes. There are always holes in anyone's knowledge, and someone with experience with hundreds of dogs in many different kinds of situations has a lot to offer me.

 

Of course you train Sam, that's always the answer. Of course you'll continue to develop a wonderful bond with him. Taking him to a few classes doesn't take any of that away, it strengthens it. It sounds like you've done a great job with him already, but what happens if something comes up that you can't figure out a way to deal with? It's happened to me with a few times, and I was grateful to have experts to call on.

 

Ruth

[scomona]

At 10 weeks we started taking our pup to a set of 8 classes on a working lamb farm. One trainer does agility and obedience and the other works with herding. Im glad we did it, they only trained border collies and other herding dogs. It was the same price as group classes, but she spent more time with us and brought her own dogs who were well trained to mirror what we were asking of Shiloh. It was very effective and informative.

 

We also signed up for a multi-breed class in the city. We went to 1 class.... it stunk like urine, the trainer was screaming in a high pitched voice for all instructions (which made Shiloh confused and too excited). We were told to ignore any bad habits to use hundreds of treats. It wasn't a fit for us or effective for Shiloh- so we asked to trade our classes in for 2 privates on loose lead walking.

 

Both of those cost a fair bit of money ( about $200 for each set)- but we are beginners and it was worth not going out for a few months to have a dog that is well behaved, socialized and happy. It was a must for us to have a dog that is polite and listens well. We also found that the class structure helped us keep on a schedule with him. I think if I ever get another puppy I would do the 8 classes on the farm again- the trainers insight on our pup was priceless and we were able to direct his energy in more effective ways because of it.

[desertranger]

I've had Jin in several obedience classes but I don't think that has a lot to do how well dog is trained. I think dog training has to do with interaction among owner and the dogs. The only reason Jin is really in class is because he has to have a certain amount of time in classes in order to be qualified as a Service Dog under some organizations and groups rules and laws. We train together everyday and most of Jin's training is outside somewhere.

[Root Beer]

I suppose you could call it an 'ego' thing, not in a nasty big headed type of way, but just that i would love the feeling of accomplishing something all on my own without any outside influence.....and when somebody asks 'did you take him to obedience classes', and i say 'yes', and they think to themselves 'oh, i thought he would have had to have somebody train him, you would never be able to train a dog like that yourself....', whereas if i answered 'no', they would realise the bond and connection and hard work that went into it on both Sams and my part.

 

I train on my own a good bit with Dean. Because of his noise issues, he can't be in classes where dogs are making noise. And dogs make noise - a surprising amount of noise - even in a quiet class like obedience!

 

I've been doing the training thing for a while now and I know enough of what I'm doing to be able to do the training that I want.

 

Still, when I have the opportunity to work with him in a class, I always benefit. Sometimes the instructor understands a nuance of a technique that I either don't know yet or have missed. Sometimes the instructor simply knows something that I don't yet. And sometimes an outside pair of eyes is extremely helpful when working through the challenges that always come up when we work with these highly intelligent and creative individuals!!

 

Once upon a time I thought much as you did - I wanted to be able to produce this amazingly trained dog and to be able to say, "I" did that!

 

Through our work together, Dean has taught me to look at it very differently. It's not me creating this amazing bond and connection, it is both of us as a team. And there have been some key times where instructors have really had a big part in making that happen. I am very grateful for their insight. I've learned a lot about training over the last years. Still, there is even more to learn.

 

Just some food for thought. There really isn't any one "right" or "wrong" way when it comes to training in a class or training on one's own. Personally, I enjoy classes and I wouldn't even consider not taking a dog to class unless there were an issue (like Dean's noise issues) or financial limitations or if there were not a class in my area that I consider appropriate for my dog and myself.

[Stacie R.]

We have taken classes with both of our dogs. I do think it is possible to train without formal classes but I don't have the experience neccesary to do it. Plus the classes provided an environment that I would have to work harder to create myself (distractions, socialization, etc). For obedience classes my dogs knew most of the behaviors before we started but the distractions in a group setting provided extra training oppurtunties. Also one of my dogs is highly reactive around other animals and our training facility has given me a safe place to have him around other dogs while we work on his reactiveness (he's taken basic obedience 1 and 2, a focused attention class and wil start Rally this month). My other dog is in Agility and I know for sure that I do not have the experience or knowledge to train her for that on my own. I need the guidance of experienced people so I don't hurt her or myself.

 

I have also found classes to be a great bonding experience for me and the dogs. Plus it gives me the oppurtunity to see and talk with other humans that have similar interests. So we get a lot more then good behavior out of the classes we take making them well worth it.

[BorderCollieSam]

Once upon a time I thought much as you did - I wanted to be able to produce this amazingly trained dog and to be able to say, "I" did it!

 

I'm glad you understand where im coming from, I just want the satisfaction and feeling of personal achievement that Sam and myself have pulled it off together.

 

We will obviosly make some mistakes along the way but I'm sure we'll get there in the end.

[BorderCollieSam]

At 10 weeks we started taking our pup to a set of 8 classes on a working lamb farm. One trainer does agility and obedience and the other works with herding. Im glad we did it, they only trained border collies and other herding dogs. It was the same price as group classes, but she spent more time with us and brought her own dogs who were well trained to mirror what we were asking of Shiloh.

 

I would absolutely love to be able to attend a course like that and use my own dog for

birding, I would sign up like yesterday.

[BorderCollieSam]

Of course you train Sam, that's always the answer. Of course you'll continue to develop a wonderful bond with him. Taking him to a few classes doesn't take any of that away, it strengthens it. It sounds like you've done a great job with him already, but what happens if something comes up that you can't figure out a way to deal with? It's happened to me with a few times, and I was grateful to have experts to call on.

 

Ruth

 

i shall rely on members of this board to help me if something crops up and I don't know how to deal with it!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

our local vets charge a lot of money and training is undertaken in the waiting room!

 

I know people who I have met whilst walking who have attended obedience classes and there dogs run riot and they ask me how I got my dog to recall like he does.

 

And I wouldn't attend these classes either. I went to a lot of different classes to watch the trainers before I signed up for anything. I wanted to make sure the trainers approach to dog training echoed my own and that they were in-fact a good trainer. If you question the trainer or the quality of the classes don't go!

 

If Daisy did not have reactivity issues I highly doubt I would have sought out a trainer in the first place. She was very easy to train and was very obedient. I had been taking her to off leash parks since she was a pup and her recall was excellent. We would have been just fine without taking any classes (if she was a normal dog!). My dog had issues that I did not know how to deal with and my only option was going to "school". I've learned so much since then and have since changed my mind on taking classes with my dog. BUT, if there isn't anything in your area that is worth a grain of salt, then don't bother...it will do more damage than good really! Just purchase some books, think of some tricks and have fun!

[Brad]

Classes are always a good thing, if you have the right person offering the class. I've also had dogs my whole life, and "trained" them myself. But after taking a real class, and seeing how much I didn't know, or maybe even just being taught to think harder, I found I could train something in 5 minutes that used to take me 5 weeks. And yes, if someone asks if I train my dogs, the answer is yes. Frankly, I could take the dog class without the dogs, they're already very good at being dogs. I'm the one with stuff to learn. I go to classes to learn to be a better trainer. It helps my dogs become less frustrated with me. And while I don't take the same class with my newer dogs, if something I'm trying to apply isn't working, I set up some time with the trainer to go over what I'm not doing right.

Now, to worry about whether someone thinks you magically just knew how to train dogs is plain silly. You're letting your ego (in a bad way) get in the way of your relationship with your dog. Not gonna argue about it, you just are. Trust me, I'm a guy. I'm a big tough, egotistical guy covered in tattoos that knows everything, and my relationship with my dogs didn't start, or become a 2 way street, until such time as I put ego away and listened to the people around me that knew more than I.

You would get a lot more out of all of your posts if you just swallowed your ego and pride. If you have trouble with that, they offer classes.....

[Ninso]

I didn't read all of the replies thoroughly, so this may have been mentioned already. I think a person can certainly have a well-trained dog on their own, but I do think whether that is possible depends on the skill of the person in dog training as well as the time and dedication put in. A good foundational knowledge of learning/training theory and the many different techniques possible will only help you. If you don't want to take a class, I would definitely recommend doing all the reading you can on dog training. But if you CAN take a class, there is no reason not to. YOU still trained the dog, whether you took a class or not. A class can simply help YOU fine-tune your training techniques. Perhaps they don't need any fine-tuning, or perhaps you are okay with muddling through. Personally, for my dog's sake, I'd rather do the least muddling possible. An intelligent dog like Sam really appreciates a trainer who communicates clearly and efficiently and that is often times a learned skill for us humans. Personally I would rather be able to say "I understand how to communicate with my dog in the best way possible" than "**I** taught this dog everything he knows, even though I confused him a good bit along the way and we could have done it faster and less "painfully"(not talking physical pain here) had I put my ego aside." Again, I have no idea what your level of skill is, so take this for whatever it's worth. Additionally, classes are helpful just for the experience of training in a distracting environment. My dogs generally "know" all the class material before I get them into a class. We go for the practice and the distractions.

 

Just a quick example to show you what I mean. I have an old trick training book that talks about how to teach a dog to lift a hind leg. The book advises tickling the dog under the leg until it picks the leg up and then holding it there for awhile. This may work but I can't imagine how long it would take and I can't imagine how confused the dog would be in the process. I taught my female dog the exact same trick in just a couple short sessions using shaping and clicker training. There is more than one way to do anything, but some ways are just better than others. Again, this is NOT to say you're doing things wrong, but you asked about the benefit of classes v. going it alone, so there you have it.