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i shall rely on members of this board to help me if something crops up and I don't know how to deal with it! :rolleyes:

 

But online help is no substitute for being shown where you can improve.

Whoever gives the advice on here may think they've been clear but you will have no way of knowing whether what you think they mean is what was intended. A small misunderstanding can make a whole lot of difference.

 

Any of these near you?

 

http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Kent

 

I can't vouch for any of them personally but at least the APDT as an organisation has an ethical policy on training methods.

 

(Your vet's classes sound more like puppy socialisation than training.)

 

Pam

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I didn't read all of the replies thoroughly, so this may have been mentioned already. I think a person can certainly have a well-trained dog on their own, but I do think whether that is possible depends on the skill of the person in dog training as well as the time and dedication put in. A good foundational knowledge of learning/training theory and the many different techniques possible will only help you. If you don't want to take a class, I would definitely recommend doing all the reading you can on dog training. But if you CAN take a class, there is no reason not to. YOU still trained the dog, whether you took a class or not. A class can simply help YOU fine-tune your training techniques. Perhaps they don't need any fine-tuning, or perhaps you are okay with muddling through. Personally, for my dog's sake, I'd rather do the least muddling possible. An intelligent dog like Sam really appreciates a trainer who communicates clearly and efficiently and that is often times a learned skill for us humans. Personally I would rather be able to say "I understand how to communicate with my dog in the best way possible" than "**I** taught this dog everything he knows, even though I confused him a good bit along the way and we could have done it faster and less "painfully"(not talking physical pain here) had I put my ego aside." Again, I have no idea what your level of skill is, so take this for whatever it's worth. Additionally, classes are helpful just for the experience of training in a distracting environment. My dogs generally "know" all the class material before I get them into a class. We go for the practice and the distractions.

 

Just a quick example to show you what I mean. I have an old trick training book that talks about how to teach a dog to lift a hind leg. The book advises tickling the dog under the leg until it picks the leg up and then holding it there for awhile. This may work but I can't imagine how long it would take and I can't imagine how confused the dog would be in the process. I taught my female dog the exact same trick in just a couple short sessions using shaping and clicker training. There is more than one way to do anything, but some ways are just better than others. Again, this is NOT to say you're doing things wrong, but you asked about the benefit of classes v. going it alone, so there you have it.

 

Hi Ninso,

 

That leg trick certainly sounds like fun, i wouldn't mind giving that a go in time, would be interesting to see how long that takes Sam to learn something like that.

 

At the moment though i'm geered towards practical things, like getting the perfect down, he is pretty much there with the down, performs almost faultlessly, sometimes he will perform what he thinks is a down, whole body on floor and head lowered towards the ground, but i know its not right, and i'll give him the down command again before rewarding or releasing a ball (as he loves fetch) and he then realises that he doesn't have his chin to the floor and then alters his position with chin on ground and i then reward.

 

I certainly wouldn't class myself as a professional dog trainer by any stretch of the imagination, however i think i have a good knowledge of dogs and know enough for the time being to get even more out of Sam, i can and do relate well to dogs and know how to motivate them and get them to understand what i'm asking for, as i've got a lot of patience, i'm very enthusiastic, and i'm motivated, and i think that helps. I sometimes mention to friends and work colleagues that i look at a dog and think of a person, it might sound stupid but to me when i look at a dogs face its like looking at a human, each one gives off different signals and you can home into what type of personality they have, just like first impressions with a human, whereas some people who aren't dog lovers probably look at a dogs face and just think its like any other dog.

 

I think i'm doing allright for the time being and will probably continue as i'm doing for now unless i reach a problem area which i don't know how to deal with or can't train Sam to do a certain thing.

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But online help is no substitute for being shown where you can improve.

Whoever gives the advice on here may think they've been clear but you will have no way of knowing whether what you think they mean is what was intended. A small misunderstanding can make a whole lot of difference.

 

Any of these near you?

 

http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Kent

 

I can't vouch for any of them personally but at least the APDT as an organisation has an ethical policy on training methods.

 

(Your vet's classes sound more like puppy socialisation than training.)

 

Pam

 

Thank you for that link, some of those addresses i know very well as lived in Swanley/Hextable for over 20 years, only moved away about 10 years ago but i'm still in Swanley everyday.

 

I will keep that link on my favourite list and may come back to it if i get any problems along the way.

 

Out of interest Mum24Dog, are you aware of any sheep herding centres in the South East? I know its not exactly sheep country in the South East but they do have some Sheep Dog Trials that i would like to go and watch, they may be able to shed some light on this area, but i would love to concentrate Sams training on really good strong basics with the intention of one day introducing him to sheep.

 

I went past a sign the other day advertising a small farm and land for Sale, i mentioned it to my neighbour this afternoon as he keeps chickens and wants to get some ducks. I said we could go 50/50 and purchase the small farm down the road and he said he had seen the same advertisement and wanted to find out how much its up for sale for, this would be perfect!

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sometimes he will perform what he thinks is a down, whole body on floor and head lowered towards the ground, but i know its not right, and i'll give him the down command again before rewarding or releasing a ball (as he loves fetch) and he then realises that he doesn't have his chin to the floor and then alters his position with chin on ground and i then reward.

 

Don't repeat commands and don't reward if he has had to alter his position.

It isn't just the end result you should be rewarding, it's the whole behaviour.

BCs are easy to train because they get set in chains of behaviour so readily. However, you have to be careful that the dog is giving you the chain you want.

Sounds like you want drop to the ground with chin on the floor.

What it sounds like you are getting is drop, repeat command, then chin on floor. Reward that and Sam will think that's what you want.

 

Sorry, I don't know of any herding classes down your way - but you might fancy a holiday here -

 

http://www.longtonsheepdogs.com

 

Pam

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Don't repeat commands and don't reward if he has had to alter his position.

It isn't just the end result you should be rewarding, it's the whole behaviour.

BCs are easy to train because they get set in chains of behaviour so readily. However, you have to be careful that the dog is giving you the chain you want.

Sounds like you want drop to the ground with chin on the floor.

What it sounds like you are getting is drop, repeat command, then chin on floor. Reward that and Sam will think that's what you want.

 

Sorry, I don't know of any herding classes down your way - but you might fancy a holiday here -

 

http://www.longtonsheepdogs.com

 

Pam

 

pam, that link is brill, we go to a log cannon is whitebridge in Inverness each winter as I'm originally from scotland and stop off to see family on way through. Last year we stopped off at a w

farm in the lakes and the farmer does trialling and has the national champion amongst his 9 dogs and I had a 2hr session using one of his dogs on sheep and it was brill, I'll definetely have to give that link you posted consideration, thanks for posting!

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Last year we stopped off at a w

farm in the lakes and the farmer does trialling and has the national champion amongst his 9 dogs and I had a 2hr session using one of his dogs on sheep and it was brill, I'll definetely have to give that link you posted consideration, thanks for posting!

 

Was that Derek Scrimgeour's near Keswick?

 

Pam

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Was that Derek Scrimgeour's near Keswick?

 

Pam

 

no it was in Troutal Farm, Seathwaite. Duddon Valley. http://www.lakedistrictsheepdogexperience.co.uk/

 

I have some video footage of his

dogs I will put on

You Tube and will post

the link here

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Out of interest, how many people on these forums have attended classes?

 

I attended so many classes and paid for a behaviorist with my first dog (extremely reactive and aggressive dog raised from puppy), that I feel comfortable getting Vala (a pretty normal BC adopted as an adult) to a certain place by myself. Basically teaching and reinforcing all the basic commands (sit down stay heel come recall fetch shake drop it take it leave it settle loose leash walking etc); learning, reinforcing, and habituating good polite in-home behavior; teaching a useful in-home vocabulary and fun tricks to keep her busy during the day; and starting her on some kind of training path (agility or herding or something more social haven't decided yet). But at some point - probably 4-6 mos in the future, we've had her five but are still focused on curing health issues - I'm going to have everything down and have her advanced enough down that track that I'm going to be out of my element and want help. I'm going to approach training classes differently this time though. Last time at first I thought I wanted to get the dog to learn at the classes. Now I feel like I should observe the training classes and watch the trainer and not worry about the dog's success in the class because the whole point is to go home and apply myself. I think these classes are really for people. Oh and for dog socialization purposes, which brings me to another point - puppies are cute but after my experience with my first dog they kinda scare me! I rescued Vala as an adult and adults are obviously easier to do on your own. Especially adults like Vala with clearly solid lovely temperaments who already love all people and know to sit for attention.

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Hi daisy and ipsy

 

our local vets charge a lot of money and training is undertaken in the waiting room!

 

I know people who I have met whilst walking who have attended obedience classes and there dogs run riot and they ask me how I got my dog to recall like he does.

 

I think Sam is obedient allready and don't think an obedience class will benefit us anymore than we are allready, however I would love to be able to find a sheep herding course/class where you can take your own dog.

 

I think an agility class would also be good for his and myself.

 

I just don't think the obedience class will benefit him anymore than we are allready doing,I think it's just repetition and time which will pull everything together.

 

Daisy, I will definetely try that advice on the 'stay', we don't practice the stay command as much as we should, we spend too much time mountain biking, playing fetch, and practicing his downing, as Sam really likes cycling with me and I really like seeing a dog downing!

 

Will let you know how the stay progresses!

 

I havent read all the new posts yet , and there are alot ! But why the heck would somebody offer training classes in the waiting room of a vets office ? :rolleyes: Thats something I would advise against . There are so many things your dog can be exposed to at the vets. Why take that chance ? Just my opinion....

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I havent read all the new posts yet , and there are alot ! But why the heck would somebody offer training classes in the waiting room of a vets office ? :rolleyes: Thats something I would advise against . There are so many things your dog can be exposed to at the vets. Why take that chance ? Just my opinion....

 

Exactly my point, and they weren't cheap either!

 

Which brings me to my other conspiracy theory behind the intentions of 'some' but NOT 'all' of these teachers, is it because they love animals and are really at the top of the tree in terms of teaching dogs, or is it they are no better than the owner but have realised how much money is in this line of work....

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no it was in Troutal Farm, Seathwaite. Duddon Valley. http://www.lakedistrictsheepdogexperience.co.uk/

 

Can't see any reference to any of his dogs being the national champion. Couldn't see a name on the site either but may have missed it.

Thought it must be Derek Scrimgeour as he won the English National last year and he runs the same sort of business.

 

Pam

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Hi Pam, i'll cut the video (as is about 20 minutes long) and post a section up on You Tube, all of his dogs were very strong eyed and you could tell they were strong competitors, he had an air conditioned trailer in his yard that i had to put Sam in as he wouldn't allow any other dogs in the same field when his dogs were working, he said he travelled all around the country competing with his dogs.......and that i think his dog 'max' was or had been the National Champion, this dog was VERY strong eyed and would just stand there in a half down and half standing position with his eyes fixed permanently on the sheep without even blinking.

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have realised how much money is in this line of work....

 

You must be joking. There is very little chance of making money running general training classes in this country once you've paid for the venue and insurance.

The vast majority do it as a public service. Some do it as part of a diverse dog related business but rarely can the training side stand alone economically and provide anything like a living income.

The country is pretty well supplied with KC classes that are run by volunteers and only charge a nominal training fee. Any private trainer that charges much more risks pricing themself out.

There are people with a lot of specialist knowledge to offer who can get away with it, but on the whole breaking even is the target for most instructors.

 

Pam

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You must be joking. There is very little chance of making money running general training classes in this country once you've paid for the venue and insurance.

The vast majority do it as a public service. Some do it as part of a diverse dog related business but rarely can the training side stand alone economically and provide anything like a living income.

The country is pretty well supplied with KC classes that are run by volunteers and only charge a nominal training fee. Any private trainer that charges much more risks pricing themself out.

There are people with a lot of specialist knowledge to offer who can get away with it, but on the whole breaking even is the target for most instructors.

 

Pam

 

Those instructors not making huge amounts of money are the types i would 'consider' attending classes, however my vets gave me some information on a class held at their vets waiting room and although i can't remember the exact costs they were pretty extortionate.

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I guess that I must be a pretty awful (hobby) trainer, because I've lowered myself to attend training classes at times.

 

Sarcasm aside, training an uncomplicated dog is pretty easy and can be accomplished without assistance. To me, the value of classes is socialization with other dogs and people, and the presense of real world distractions. By socialization, I mean having my dog work in the presense of strange dogs and people (rather than the class being an hour long meet and greet, and doggie play fest). Having a dog obey in your house, backyard, or a quiet field is one thing, having your dog obey in a crowded public park, a vet office waiting room, on an agility field, or in a field full of sheep is yet another.

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Those instructors not making huge amounts of money are the types i would 'consider' attending classes

 

Why though?

It's often the case that people are prepared to pay more for someone who has built up a good reputation which enables higher training fees to be charged.

Why shouldn't someone with a special skill not be able to charge a decent amount to pass it on if their niche in the market will stand it? Other professionals get paid for their services, why not a dog trainer?

I'm not saying you couldn't find a cheap but excellent trainer, but to disregard someone purely on the grounds of cost would be foolish.

And bear in mind that the higher the per capita charge, the smaller the class is likely to be and the more personal attention given.

 

Pam

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Why though?

It's often the case that people are prepared to pay more for someone who has built up a good reputation which enables higher training fees to be charged.

Why shouldn't someone with a special skill not be able to charge a decent amount to pass it on if their niche in the market will stand it? Other professionals get paid for their services, why not a dog trainer?

I'm not saying you couldn't find a cheap but excellent trainer, but to disregard someone purely on the grounds of cost would be foolish.

And bear in mind that the higher the per capita charge, the smaller the class is likely to be and the more personal attention given.

 

Pam

 

I think there is a fine line to this, yes i don't begrudge paying good money to receive good instruction, which i'm sure does exist, however my experience with other areas of which i have over 25 years experience in (not relating to dogs or animals) has seen some horrific instructors/teachers in the game for the money side only.

 

In my experience i have found better instructors/teachers who charge less and some barely covering the cost of the venue because they do it for the love of that area and not to make lots of money.

 

It would be wrong of me (i quite admit) to assume that all those charging lots of money are not worth considering....

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Was that Derek Scrimgeour's near Keswick?

 

Pam

 

Hi Pam, i may have got things wrong, i think he must have said his dog qualified for the Nationals and not won the Nationals, it was GOE, the dog on his website.

 

I've posted a video of the day at his farm, and have split them into three - please excuse my daughters winging!

 

This is the video of him showing me how to command his dogs and move the sheep:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UHb7AQHiOo

 

This is the video of me 'trying' to command the dogs and move the sheep :rolleyes:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQNWssfuvoY

 

And this is the video of the last part of the day of him showing us a 1yr old female that has only just been introduced to sheep.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8_D-GhqYN0

 

I liked the last video, he was explaining that he puts the command to the dogs movements and not the dogs movements to the command, he waits for the dog to 'come-by' and then gives that command, and then waits for the dog to 'away' and then gives that command.

 

Also, you won't be able to hear in the first video, however his commands were so so quiet, it was like a wisper and the dogs were nearly half a mile away and they were still hearing his commands, and i could only just hear him saying it and he was standing next to me, was incredible, was a really good day and i really enjoyed it.

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