8 weeks or no sale

[juliepoudrier]

Well, I didn't say I would *routinely* take a pup at 6 weeks, and I *am* an experienced owner, so in this particular case, the pup being 6 weeks didn't concern me. And frankly, I figured she'd be better with me than where she was. But is 6 weeks my preferred age? Of course not, so no need to be quite so shocked. She grew up just fine, and bite inhibition was never a problem. Then again she was raised with a few adult dogs, so she was still able to learn manners from the adult members in the pack.

 

J.

[Ooky]

No, wasn't shocked at you, Julie, and I *know* you are experienced, about 10,000x more than I. Reading your response just made me surprised in the way that I wondered if I was being weird not taking a pup from that rescue for that reason - although I still think 5.5 weeks is a strange age to put up a whole litter, from a rescue. They were bizarre in other ways anyway - it was their opinion that crate training was "cruel" and I was going to have to sign something promising not to use a crate if I adopted a puppy.

[SS Cressa]

I love this topic! It very interesting to see all the different response.

 

I love RAVES response that is almost exactly what I was going to say.

 

My border collie I got at 7.5 weeks or 7 weeks. One the breeder wanted to sell her at 6 weeks and I thought it was too early so we had an agreement. The other after a ton of research I wanted to get him before the fear period. I wanted to introduce him to the sights and sounds of my house, my work, and shows while he was still impressionable and carefree. If the breeder explain why they wanted to keep the pup till they were 9+ weeks I would want to know why and if I knew how they were going to be socialize I wouldn't mind.

[mum24dog]

Unwillingness to take a pup at 8 weeks because it might be in the "fear period" has been mentioned.

This doesn't really make much sense.

 

Fear periods are when your pup suddenly becomes afraid of people, objects or places he used to be comfortable with and they are only approximate as they vary between dogs. You will find different ages quoted but that just underlines the point I want to make - that there is no specific age that if you avoid your pup will be fine.

 

They can occur roughly

between 7 to 16 weeks of age

anywhere from 4 to 6 months

again at around 12 months

then at approximately 14 to 18 months and with some dogs can even be as late as 2 years

 

So if someone won't take the pup at 8 weeks for that reason, what about the possible fear periods to come?

What if you take it at 7 or 9 weeks and find that is when it is at its spookiest?

It's just one of those things you have to try and deal with sensibly if it happens.

 

I'll give you the example of my hound.

At 8 weeks he was on death row in an Irish pound.

Between then and when I got him at 15 weeks he was quarantined for a couple of weeks with an Irish rescuer who had several GSDs, then shipped over the sea to Wales in a van with other dogs to another rescue, then fostered by a family with several children, dogs and cats.

He arrived with me a happy confident boy that loved other dogs (especially GSDs) and people.

Then at about 5 months we got caught out in a thunderstorm and over the years he has generalised his fear of thunder that started then to all explosions, however small.

Then at about 15 months he was severely bullied by an unstable GSD that ignored his appeasing and submissive gestures. This has generalised to being scared of all strange dogs, especially GSDs.

Stuff happens in life - sometimes it happens at the wrong time.

 

Pam

[Cindy Evans]

I've been around a while and six weeks used to be the norm back in the dark ages. I must admit that I like them best at seven to ten weeks, but don't really care about age much. It just depends on if I want the pup.

 

Over the years I've had them from bottle raised to six months, and don't see much difference in them as long as they were started healthy. The six month old is the only one that was a problem. He was a kennel raised Sheltie and part, if not all, of of his problems were temperament. We had no problem bonding, he just never handled life well.

 

If bonding was an issue because of age rescue wouldn't work. Right now I have a Chihuahua that was a rescued breeder from a puppy mill. She has bonded just fine, and there is no telling her age. We have other rescues here and bonding isn't an issue.

 

In my opinion it depends on what you want to work with, and when the breeder decides they want the pups to go. There's no set time that's optimum, just personal preference.

Cindy

[mum24dog]

There seems to be a general presupposition that dams will retain an interest in their pups but IME they are all too glad to see the back of them - it's just the age they get to that point that varies.

One working bitch I know of regularly abandoned her litters at 5 weeks. They were sold at 6 weeks because they weren't going to be learning what they needed from their littermates (think "Lord of the Flies) so they were better off in homes that had other dogs to learn from. I know quite a few from different litters and they turned out fine.

Just one exception - the first dog my friend got from that breeding was 12 weeks old because she had a limp and the farmer was going to keep her. She turned into the perfect dog and 100% bonded with my friend. The other bitch she got at 6 weeks not quite so closely bonded.

 

Pam

[WildFlower]

*I admit I am not an expert.*

 

I got both of my pups a bit older. I get Daisy at 12 weeks and Devon at 14 weeks. I got both of them later primarily because of work issues for me. However, I have "heard" that getting them a bit older does allow them to learn more manners with their litter mates and/or other dogs. I saw one other post earlier in the thread that seemed to suggest this as well.

 

At any rate both Daisy and Devon seem to be well adjusted.

[Lenajo]

worth noting now that in many states selling pups is illegal before 8 weeks. irritatingly enough this does not apply to pounds/shelters/rescue groups - many of which here hand out pups as young as 3 weeks.

 

I've never understood pups being too much trouble to keep past 8 weeks. Work yes, but trouble no.

 

No pup should be vaccinated before 8 weeks - Per W. Jean Dodds DVM and R. Shultz DVM on proven vaccine research. They don't have a competent immune system to even respond, and are much more likely to have problems.

[Maralynn]

I'm wonder what difference it makes if you get a well bred pup? If it it raised right by the breeder, I don't think it should matter. Yes, there's such a thing as too young but seriously, people get pups of all different ages all the time. If there was a major difference (and seeing as the average person is much less dog savvy than the average person here) you'd be seeing it pop up all over the place. I think the age makes the greatest difference if the pup already has genetic strikes against it.

[Liz P]

But the average owner in the USA is not doing a good job. We have a huge problem with dogs being left at shelters for behavioral problems, most of which are likely due to poor training and socialization. Is that because we are letting pups go too young? I don't know, but it might be a contributing factor.

 

I saw a big difference in the pups I kept beyond 8 weeks. They were ready to go to their new homes right around the time everyone was going on vacation (spring). Several of the new owners already had plans, so I told them I would keep their pups until they got back to avoid boarding in a kennel. As a breeder I was happy to do that because it was in their best interest. It was also fun to see the change from littermate to individual dog. Their personalities really become much more obvious.

 

My experience with buying slightly older pups has been that they are more like dogs than infants. They were much less needy and had a faster overall adjustment to home life. They also had better bladder control. I have brought home 2 pups at 6 weeks old (transport availability). They were a lot more work, but they didn't turn out any different (I had well adjusted dogs at home to teach dog manners). I am past the whole "I must have a puppy they are so cute" thing. I only got a pup this summer because I wanted that particular combination of bloodlines.

[Rave]

I'm wonder what difference it makes if you get a well bred pup? If it it raised right by the breeder, I don't think it should matter. Yes, there's such a thing as too young but seriously, people get pups of all different ages all the time. If there was a major difference (and seeing as the average person is much less dog savvy than the average person here) you'd be seeing it pop up all over the place. I think the age makes the greatest difference if the pup already has genetic strikes against it.

 

 

Well bred does not necessarily mean well raised, and vice versa. ;-)

[JLP]

My last two pups I got were age 10 weeks and the other was a couple days before 6 weeks. I definatly think 6 weeks is plenty old to send a pup to his new home. The one we got at 6wks traveled and took to her new home much better then the 10 week old pup did.

[Gil]

I got Snap at either 6 weeks or 4 weeks depending on which is correct. The breeder told me 6 weeks but when I got the papers they showed her DOB as 5/11 instead of 5/1. In the situation she was in I don't think additional time there would have been better than with me. Gyp was 12 weeks and in his case I think earlier might have been better. Gil was 13 weeks. Could have had him at 10 weeks but it was not in his best interest (out of town trip). He moved right in with no problems. I know some is being a better bred dog than the other two and some is personality and temperment, some is also a great socialization program before I got him. His ability to learn, focus and do amazes me. This one I want to stay forever. Think it has a lot to do with which party has the best ability to do the socialization and exposure needed.

Jenny

[Lenajo]

Well bred does not necessarily mean well raised, and vice versa. ;-)

 

no it doesn't. Well bred however ime, has a much better chance of being a solid well tempered dog even if there are mistakes or misses with early socialization.

 

I've taken well bred dogs out of barns where they spend 23 hours a day for their first years and within a few weeks you couldn't tell the difference from a dog from puppyhood in a dog-savvy home. A dog without the genetics from the same situation rarely stands even a chance of normalcy without serious professional intervention.

[Maralynn]

Well bred does not necessarily mean well raised, and vice versa. ;-)

 

No, but I gave allowance for that in my post

I'm wondering what difference it makes if you get a well bred pup? If it it raised right by the breeder, I don't think it should matter.

 

But the average owner in the USA is not doing a good job. We have a huge problem with dogs being left at shelters for behavioral problems, most of which are likely due to poor training and socialization. Is that because we are letting pups go too young? I don't know, but it might be a contributing factor.

 

Maybe, but what percentage of dogs are actually having issues? Off the top of my head I can think of a dozen dogs owned by average people, some semi-clueless, who ended up just fine. These are dogs of various breeding, various upbringing and various socialization. And to lots of folks, behavioral issues are jumping up on people, chewing on shoes and peeing on the carpet. Poor training, yes, but not really poor socialization. In fact I would guess that the bulk of behavioral issues come from a complete lack of exercise and mental stimulation not a lack of socialization. People want a dog who prances around the yard for 10 minutes twice a day, chases the ball about 3 times, then curls up and sleeps for the rest for the day.

[Liz P]

Maybe, but what percentage of dogs are actually having issues? Off the top of my head I can think of a dozen dogs owned by average people, some semi-clueless, who ended up just fine. These are dogs of various breeding, various upbringing and various socialization. And to lots of folks, behavioral issues are jumping up on people, chewing on shoes and peeing on the carpet. Poor training, yes, but not really poor socialization. In fact I would guess that the bulk of behavioral issues come from a complete lack of exercise and mental stimulation not a lack of socialization. People want a dog who prances around the yard for 10 minutes twice a day, chases the ball about 3 times, then curls up and sleeps for the rest for the day.

 

When 50% of dogs born in the USA each year are euthanized before their second birthday I think it is a pretty big problem. Most of these dogs are being PTS in shelters. Most dogs dropped off at shelters are there for "behavioral reasons." I think you are right that lack of exercise is a big part of it, but often dogs don't get exercised because people don't want to take a badly behaved dog out. Again, poor early training and socialization might be a big factor. I don't know how important leaving the litter too early is, but I don't think rescues/shelters should not be taking the chance and letting pups go so early.

[jdarling]

When 50% of dogs born in the USA each year are euthanized before their second birthday...

 

Wow. That's a huge number. I didn't realize it was that high. Where can I find those statistics?

[kelpiegirl]

I was thinking the same thing. To have accurate numbers, we would have to be able to document the litters/dogs being born each year.... Maybe it's a guestimate?

[Lenajo]

Wow. That's a huge number. I didn't realize it was that high. Where can I find those statistics?

 

I've never sourced it, but I have heard Ian Dunbar give the same stats during a lecture.

[geonni banner]

When 50% of dogs born in the USA each year are euthanized before their second birthday I think it is a pretty big problem. Most of these dogs are being PTS in shelters. Most dogs dropped off at shelters are there for "behavioral reasons." I think you are right that lack of exercise is a big part of it, but often dogs don't get exercised because people don't want to take a badly behaved dog out. Again, poor early training and socialization might be a big factor. I don't know how important leaving the litter too early is, but I don't think rescues/shelters should not be taking the chance and letting pups go so early.

 

I think your numbers may be a bit off. I keep finding that roughly half of the animals in shelters are euthanized each year - not half of those born.

 

Though I don’t agree with everything said on this page, (I think they let show breeders off too easily) Here are some statistics from a NAIA page. This is the first I’ve heard of these people, but the numbers tally with other sources that I’ve checked and it’s a compact, accessible package of data.

 

http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/archives/overpop1.htm

 

Pet Population Statistics

Writing in Anthrozoos Gary Patronek of Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine and Andrew Rowan of Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine have started the ball rolling. Patronek and Rowan compiled statistics from the pet industry, the American Kennel Club, the American veterinary Medical Association, the Humane Society of the US, the American Humane Association, and other sources to paint a picture of dog ownership in the US in a recent editorial in the scholarly magazine published by the Delta Society.

The compilation did not include information about feral dogs, because (contrary to assertions from United Action for Animals) "the data indicates that this population is very small" and "it appears as though there are very few feral or unowned dogs in the USA today."(Cats may be a different story, although there are no figures available to make that judgment, according to the report.)

Rowan and Patronek report that about 52 million dogs live in 35 million US households. About 6.2 million dogs die each year, 3.8 million in homes, veterinary hospitals and under the wheels of a vehicle, and an additional 2.4 million in shelters. Each year, owners acquire about 7.3 million dogs, including 5.8 million puppies from pet stores and breeders, one million dogs from animal shelters, and 500,000 as adult strays or previously owned pets.

Puppies come from 3.3 percent of dog-owning households as follows:

· Show breeders, 1.8 million (31 percent);

· Amateur breeders, 1.3 million (23 percent);

· Mixed breeds, 2.6 million (46 percent).

· Pet stores, 500,000(7 percent)

 

Shelters

 

About four million dogs enter shelters each year:

· 400,000 puppies from households that produce litters but do not place the pups in new homes.

· Strays, about 2.2 million

· Reclaimed by their owners, about 600,000, (leaving 1.6 million strays available for adoption).

· Owner surrenders, About 1.8 million (300,000 for euthanasia and 1.5 million for adoption).

One million of the 3.1 million dogs available for adoption do get new homes, leaving 2.1 million additional dogs euthanized. However, this number is not broken down by health or temperament, leaving a gap in understanding of just how many healthy dogs die for lack of a home.

There are more dogs than ever in homes in the US according to a survey done by the American Association of Pet Product Manufacturers in 1994, and there are fewer dogs and cats than ever dying in shelters according to the latest study done by Tufts University. In 1992, APPMA showed 53.1 million dogs in US households; in 1994, the number jumped to 54.2 million dogs in 34 million households. And the Tufts study showed 1.8-2.1 million dogs euthanized in shelters, a far cry from the six or eight or more million claimed by animal rights activists.

 

Would be interested to hear what others are finding in the the way of stats on this issue.

[Maralynn]

When 50% of dogs born in the USA each year are euthanized before their second birthday I think it is a pretty big problem. Most of these dogs are being PTS in shelters. Most dogs dropped off at shelters are there for "behavioral reasons."

 

I'd certainly be a bit skeptical that the majority dogs are in shelters due to behavioral issues. I know in my county and the ones next to it, most dogs in the shelter are strays turned in or picked up by animal control. Another decent percentage are litters of mixed breed puppies. Behavioral issues only make up a small percentage of dogs who are there. Most of it is owners who just don't care and those who allow their dog to randomly reproduce. If you could figure out how to solve that problem those you'd make a huge dent in the dogs euthanized each year.

[Rave]

I'd certainly be a bit skeptical that the majority dogs are in shelters due to behavioral issues.

 

I'd agree that they're not. Especially lately with the jump in owner surrenders (whether in person or just by turning them loose) due to the economy.

[Lenajo]

I'd agree that they're not. Especially lately with the jump in owner surrenders (whether in person or just by turning them loose) due to the economy.

I'll agree that the economy has a big part of the issue this past year with dog abandonment.

 

I will point out though, that the number were high before this, and most shelters/humane societies and rescues were already full. Most make it extremely unpleasent to relinquish a pet by owner. So many dogs, even before the economy, who ended up on the street did so after the cute puppyhood was over. Some were openly abandoned, many simply forgotten. Left when moving, no fence or reason for them to stay home, picked up be animal control.

 

When you meet these dogs in the shelther it is obvious they were at one point owned dogs. They know what people are, where food comes from. They have behavioral issues (food guarding,jumping up, no leash manners, etc) that indicate that no one has ever bothered to teach them anything. They are incapable, without signficant training, to successfully move into a new household and be retained.

 

We have a massive overflow in the shelters here (the town of 50,000 I'm in right now euthanized 1500 animals a month or more) and most are young adult animals as I described above. I would wager that most were at one point a wanted puppy. Unfortuantly nobody wanted the *dog* the puppy became.

 

~~~~

How does this apply to the socialization question? Well for one, many of these dogs had the early environment to maximise their trainability. But really, nothing. You could put the best puppy, 10 weeks in the most enlightened breeder's hands, in the fool's care he will still likely be abandoned or at least in a high risk for problems situation. That really isn't his fault.

 

Can we get back on topic please?

[Liz P]

The numbers depend on what study you read and who you ask. They are estimates. You can't track every puppy born in the USA each year, it's just impossible.

 

Here is just once source for studies...

http://www.petpopulation.org/

 

Behavioral problems includes dogs who were just not trained by their owners (things as benign as peeing in the house, wandering off, barking from boredom while tied in the backyard, etc). I've seen surverys done to find out the real reason dogs were left at shelters or abandoned to wander the streets. As often as not people confessed that allergies, moving, etc were excuses given to avoid admitting that they just didn't want to deal with the dog anymore.

[jdarling]

Thanks Liz. From the site you provided, I found this quote.

 

How many dogs/cats are adopted/euthanized each year?

 

Data from shelters participating in the survey done by the NCPPSP for four years, 24.9% of the dogs and 23.4% of the cats were adopted into new homes. The percentage of dogs euthanized averaged 56.5%. The cats did not fair so well as an average of 71.1% were destroyed. It is not possible to use these statistics to estimate the numbers of animals adopted or euthanized on an annual basis. The reporting shelters may not represent a random sampling of U.S. shelters.

 

Is that what you were referring to? Or did I miss something?