8 weeks or no sale

[Lenajo]

I'd like to know what you guys think, and why?

[bc friend]

Based on my vet's advice, I'd like a pup to be no younger than 7-8 weeks. Sara was 8 weeks old when I got her. Whether I'd get an older pup depends a lot on the pup's attitude and what I could find out about how it had been raised - socialized, vaccinations, etc. Despite saying this, however, most of the dogs (and cats) I've acquired over the years have been adults!

[KathyF]

The youngest puppy that I have gotten from someone else was 7 weeks and that is the puppy we got this year. The oldest that I have gotten a puppy is 12 weeks. They have all turned out fine. One of the puppies that I got at 12 weeks ended up being a heart dog and I just lost him this summer. But we ended up being very closely bonded. I think that they need to be at least 7 weeks old before they leave their mom and litter mates. I have kept a few dogs from my own litters and in that sense I have had them since they were born, so younger than the 7 weeks. I don't think that makes that much of a difference either as they are still busy being with mom and their litter mates and you don't really fit into the picture any sooner than when you bring them in from somewhere else.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Kathy

[IPSY]

I feel 49 days is the best time. I think at that age , the bonding will be stronger for the pup. Just my opinion...

I also have 2 BC that I got at 6 months of age. They were both rescues and the female had real, real bad issues , all overcome now .

[Liz P]

I prefer older as long as they breeder is doing his/her job. The pups I have raised who have stayed with their breeder past 10 weeks have been much easier (less work, more confident, faster to house train, better able to read dog body language, etc). I think the whole bonding better with a younger pup idea is foolish at best. People adopt/buy adult dogs all the time and become very deeply bonded.

 

If a breeder pressured me to come get a pup before 8 weeks I would be very concerned and might even pass on that litter.

[Lenajo]

If a breeder pressured me to come get a pup before 8 weeks I would be very concerned and might even pass on that litter.

 

I've seen that - in fact one of our "favorite" color sport mills is known for doing that. You pick up at 8 weeks or you forfeit your pup. Period.

 

The whole reason I started this though...was in regard to the opposite. I am finding in the agility community, and to a degree the stockdog one as well, that people are walking away from good litters if they can't get them at 8 weeks or younger. This is even with a breeder who is doing their job - and a very good one at that.

 

Ipsy the 49 day thing is a myth. It was a generalization based on the work of Scott and Pfaffenburger (spelling liberally screwed up) regarding the development of puppies. My Dad used to think like you LOL - then I gave him a 11 month old that was driving me nuts - full of bad habits from running loose until 8 months when I bought her. Those 2 were ham and eggs from the beginning and had a lifetime of success together. Bond is about mutual work and purpose, a matching of temperaments and personalities. Not age.

[IPSY]

I prefer older as long as they breeder is doing his/her job. The pups I have raised who have stayed with their breeder past 10 weeks have been much easier (less work, more confident, faster to house train, better able to read dog body language, etc). I think the whole bonding better with a younger pup idea is foolish at best. People adopt/buy adult dogs all the time and become very deeply bonded.

 

If a breeder pressured me to come get a pup before 8 weeks I would be very concerned and might even pass on that litter.

 

As for bonding , you can bond at any age. I have a better bond with my female BC who I got at 6 months of age than any other dog I own. I just meant the age for bonding to start is around 49 days old. At that age , they have learned quite a bit from their litermates and momma and are ready for their new homes.

I dont feel a older pup is any easier to house break though . Just my two cents

[Journey]

IPSY - here's a link you may be interested in 49 day myth

 

As for leaving early - I have found that many pups are much more stable, mentally sound and easily adjust to their new home when they are about 10 weeks old. That and they have learned more "doggie social" manners from staying with their litter and dam.

 

10 weeks is about the ideal time imo for them to leave. You'll always have breeders that don't want to keep them, care for them, or be responsible for them, and there's nothing you can do about that type of breeder.

[IPSY]

I've seen that - in fact one of our "favorite" color sport mills is known for doing that. You pick up at 8 weeks or you forfeit your pup. Period.

 

The whole reason I started this though...was in regard to the opposite. I am finding in the agility community, and to a degree the stockdog one as well, that people are walking away from good litters if they can't get them at 8 weeks or younger. This is even with a breeder who is doing their job - and a very good one at that.

 

Ipsy the 49 day thing is a myth. It was a generalization based on the work of Scott and Pfaffenburger (spelling liberally screwed up) regarding the development of puppies. My Dad used to think like you LOL - then I gave him a 11 month old that was driving me nuts - full of bad habits from running loose until 8 months when I bought her. Those 2 were ham and eggs from the beginning and had a lifetime of success together. Bond is about mutual work and purpose, a matching of temperaments and personalities. Not age.

 

I am not arguing with you ,now am I preaching , just adding my opinion . Isnt that what these threads supposed to be about, peoples experiences/opinions ?

 

My husband has let pups go no earlier than 49 days and later is fine. And from the experience he has had with this , all were good. So I think it has to do with experience rather than anything else. It's got nothing to do with anybody elses studies. Just his experience. This is coming from somebody who has never had a wesite selling pups or newspaper ads . Never once had to make a phone call to sell a pup. All pups are always spoken for before they hit the ground. Never once took a deposit either. All pups are sold to previous owners of his dogs who want another one of his pups or by a referal from a friend or the police department. He has turned people down if he feels their home environment isnt a good one for one of his pups. He has been doing this for years. He is no expert , but he knows what he is doing and he has the pups best interest in mind .

Again , just my opinion.

[IPSY]

IPSY - here's a link you may be interested in 49 day myth

 

As for leaving early - I have found that many pups are much more stable, mentally sound and easily adjust to their new home when they are about 10 weeks old. That and they have learned more "doggie social" manners from staying with their litter and dam.

 

10 weeks is about the ideal time imo for them to leave. You'll always have breeders that don't want to keep them, care for them, or be responsible for them, and there's nothing you can do about that type of breeder.

 

Thanks for the link , I will check it out.

[desertranger]

I think the 8wk discussion is is BS. Listened to it all my life, I've taken pups as old as 12 weeks and never had any problems with them. I've had to keep pups until they were as old as 8 months before I could place them into proper homes. Always delivered well adjusted, socialized and trained dogs ready to move into a new home so the transition was as smooth as possible.

[Smokjbc]

I want no younger than 7 or 8 weeks, but of three pups that I got at 8 weeks old, I only bonded really well to one of those. The two I've bonded to the most are Nellie- who I bred, and Rhett- who I got at 6 months. I have a 15 year old dog now that I got at 8 weeks, she was actually the last one picked and from the very beginning I had a hard time bonding with her, although I'd say her temperament and social skills are fine- we are both just neutral on the subject of each other (I'm getting less neutral as old dog incontinence is setting in LOL). Personally, I think it's more about temperament suiting the owner and nothing bad/wrong happening at critical stages than actual weeks old, unless they leave too young- I agree that could be problematic. One thing about dogs with really great temperaments- you can generally do your worst and they will still be nice dogs- I know my Rhett is like that, she'd take all kinds of mismanagement and abuse (not that she's had either) and still be a sweetheart.

[IPSY]

I think the 8wk discussion is is BS. Listened to it all my life, I've taken pups as old as 12 weeks and never had any problems with them. I've had to keep pups until they were as old as 8 months before I could place them into proper homes. Always delivered well adjusted, socialized and trained dogs ready to move into a new home so the transition was as smooth as possible.

 

Absolutely . I have mentioned before , my female BC is the most "bonded" and adjusted and I had gotten her at 6 MONTHS.

Wasnt this thread about what we all think the best time to take a puppy from a breeder ?

 

We all have different experiences and mine have all been good when taking dogs into my home at different ages. I never had a instance that would have made me say , " I wish I didnt get this dog at this age. "

But , I do believe each dog is a individual and what is best for him , may not be best for others. That goes for different breeds of dogs as well.

Just my opinion.

[geonni banner]

The four dogs that I have bonded best with were brought home at 7 weeks, 16 weeks, 6 mos. and 1 1/2 years. The first two were from responsible breeders and the third, my present dog was from a very questionable rescue - and she had little or no socialization to anything. The fourth was from the Los Angeles dog pound and she had been through the wringer - she had had a litter of pups in the pound that were taken from her and destroyed immediately. She had been picked up as a stray. All either grew up well-socialized or became well-socialized within a year - well, Sugarfoot, my present is 3/4 of the way there at 11 mos. with me..

 

If a puppy comes form a place where the breeder is committed to exposing the puppies to appropriate levels of new experiences with dogs, people and sensory stimuli of all kinds, then my personal opinion is that the pups are better for staying with their dam and litter-mates until 10 weeks or more. The scenario of puppies growing up in environment like the one portrayed in the DVD Border Collie Sheepdogs Off Duty seems likely to produce puppies mentally and physically prepared for just about anything. Unfortunately, I don't reckon there are all that many that have that option.

 

But puppies that don't come out of these ideal situations usually seem to do fine. (I've bottle-raised orphans that turned out fine. I placed them at 12 weeks.) My sense is that later is generally better. I'd rather miss out on some of the roly-poly, puppy-breath fun, than take a pup from it's mom before 8, 10 or even 12 weeks.

[IPSY]

IPSY - here's a link you may be interested in 49 day myth

 

As for leaving early - I have found that many pups are much more stable, mentally sound and easily adjust to their new home when they are about 10 weeks old. That and they have learned more "doggie social" manners from staying with their litter and dam.

 

10 weeks is about the ideal time imo for them to leave. You'll always have breeders that don't want to keep them, care for them, or be responsible for them, and there's nothing you can do about that type of breeder.

 

I did check out that link . Who is this Ed Baily ? And I think he is referring to Springers , which is fine . That's what he has experience with breeding. Speaking of studies , there was studies done by the Guide Dog Foundation and what they have found was a diminished training ability everyday they spent with their littermates and the dam after the 49th day. Now this could have been regarding labs or goldens , but they found that after that day , those dogs were harder to train or may not have been suitable for them to train for guide dogs.

I will try to find some literature on this study and post it.

[MicheleS.]

Had a great bond with a GSD who I got at 7 weeks. Have an awesome bond with my aussie who was rehomed to me at 5 months. I got Chase when he was 5 months and I feel like I have a great bond with him also. As a side note, he was kept in a barn/kennel for 5 months with very little human contact and he had/has some shyness/fear issues. Sometimes I wonder if that was his lack of exposure to the outside world or that is in his genes or a little of both.

[Rave]

Great topic! Looking forward to reading all the responses.

 

I like to get my pups as early as possible. The reason? To spend as much time with them as possible during the critical socialization/learning period. Yes a good breeder will be working on these things too, but not as much as I will with only one baby. I do sports and have a lot I do with pups from the beginning. Puppies are a sponge when they're babies - anything after 8 weeks and I feel like time's been wasted. I've gotten pups at 6.5 weeks, 7 weeks, 7.5 weeks, 6 months, 9 months and 3 years. I personally prefer 7 weeks. The 6.5 week one was only because of logistics and she turned out perfect (Wick). I don't like 8 weeks since that might fall during a fear period.

 

I can't really say if the pups learn more/better this way, because I've become a better trainer through the years. I can say dogs I got as babies (Wick & Rave) are the best trained of my bunch. Too early to tell yet with the puppy, but I've had him less than 2 months and he already has quite the vocabulary. ;-)

 

I would think beliefs on this would depend on what role your pup will play in your life, whether it's working, sport, companion, etc... If a breeder told me they want to send a pup home after 8 weeks, I wouldn't immediately rule it out, I'd want to know why and I'd discuss it over with them. I can't think of any reasons right now that the pup would benefit from staying with the litter past 8 weeks if it's going to a home where it's going to be socialized well.

[border_collie_crazy]

I actually dont want young pups, when adopting I usually go for a minimum of 1 year preferably older, when buying a puppy from a breeder, I go for older..preferably 4 months and up. now I DID get Happy and Misty as young pups(Misty 7 1/2 wks Happy 10wks) but I was in grade 8 for Happy and grade 10 for Misty..I had more free time to work with a young puppy! but after aquiring both young and older, I strongly prefere starting with older dogs.

[mum24dog]

Only one rule - there are no rules.

 

So many variables including (in no particular order) -

 

Your personal ability to look after a pup.

Your current dogs' temperaments.

Pup's temperament.

Is it learning good or bad things from its dam/littermates?

What life experiences is the breeder introducing it to?

Whether it would be convenient to have a new pup around at that particular moment.

 

Worrying about bonding is pointless.

 

Pam

[IPSY]

Had a great bond with a GSD who I got at 7 weeks. Have an awesome bond with my aussie who was rehomed to me at 5 months. I got Chase when he was 5 months and I feel like I have a great bond with him also. As a side note, he was kept in a barn/kennel for 5 months with very little human contact and he had/has some shyness/fear issues. Sometimes I wonder if that was his lack of exposure to the outside world or that is in his genes or a little of both.

 

My female BC was in the same mess. Locked in stall , no socialization with people , etc...Took a long while to get her where she is now. But I do feel alot of it is genetics. Would you breed this female ? No , of course not.

My puppy at 8 weeks came out of the airline crate happy as a clam and so far has never met a stranger.

The female collie still barks at my husband if he moves too fast . The really nice male I have is 4 years old , a rescue and is a goof ball . He loves everybody , never scared of anything , and is always smiling. Would I breed him if given the chance , yes , yes , yes. He has everything I would want in a BC. Not that I want to breed them , I was just using them as a example of the traits that would be carried on to the pups.

I think pups left beyond the 8 weeks can learn unwanted behaviours. They are alot more coordinated now and looking for things to do and will amuse themselves .

A 2 year old female shepherd was flown in from Germany and came out of her crate ready for anything. Genetics again.

Pups will either have good genetics or they wont. But I feel getting them at 7-8 weeks is a plenty old enough and they have learned all they need to learn from the dam and littermates. The rest is up to you .

Just my experiences.

[Eileen Stein]

I've read that Ed Bailey article before, and I wasn't any more impressed with it this time. It always surprises me that those folks who say pups' time of conception and developmental progress varies so much that you can't specify an optimum time to get a pup always seem to end up telling you what the optimum time to get a pup is (in this guy's case, 10 weeks, for no very persuasive reason). It also surprises me how they don't hesitate to pinpoint the fear period stage. In my experience with border collies, I've rarely found that they go through a fear period at the age when they're "supposed to" go through a fear period.

 

I tend to favor 7 weeks for two reasons. First, in cases where I've seen what happens with multiple members of the same litter taken from home at different times, it HAS seemed to me that those taken earlier than 7 weeks tend to be overly attached to their persons and not comfortable with other dogs, whereas those taken later than 7 weeks seem a little more independent and dog-centered than ideal. Second, when I have had litters, they have seemed noticeably ready to move on right around 7 weeks. Their interests shift outward -- it's a detectable change in their behavior that is difficult to describe, but you can't fail to notice.

 

That said, however, I don't think this is a hard and fast rule at all. More depends on the inborn personality/temperament of the dogs than the age at which they leave the litter. The most well-adjusted and ideally-tempered dog I know -- both with people and with other dogs -- left her litter at 5 weeks, and I've known plenty who left at 10 or 12 weeks, or even later, who turned out fine. I would not reject a pup based on its age when leaving the litter. But when I can choose the age when my pup leaves the litter, I choose 7 weeks.

[workindogs]

In the litters I've had I don't let the pups go until 7 weeks.....unless there is a logistical reason to let then go a few days sooner. I actually like to keep the pups until 8 weeks because I see such a big jump in their confidence. If I end up keeping until 9 weeks their confidence begins transforming into independence.....then they will drive me insane and I won't be responsible for my actions....usually at this age they start going on "walkabouts", free ranging into the pasture (because they fit through the fence wire) and are like a herding cats to corral. I think that they really need more one on one attention at 9 weeks and it become a challenge if the breeder has more than a couple left....not impossible but alot of work.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

First off in Pa it's now illegal to sell or adopt out a puppy less than 8 weeks but, I tended to want my pups to have first shots and a few days to set before I sent them home. We try to shoot for 2 shots at the rescue. When puppies are raised by me at 8 weeks they are already learning house training by being taken outside a few times a day and they socialize with my adult dogs. The pups with a shot and a good amt of time at the rescue are given down time in the house or outside in a clean contained area with some of the house dogs that like pups.

 

Most of the pups at the rescue are there about 3 weeks before going home and they are learning crate training and are kept in their litter pack unless real fights are errupting like one wont let others eat. I honestly dont think we have heard any of our puppies have fear issues or bad behavior that cant be corrected.

 

We had a puppy/ dog returned after 2 years this week he is 30 to 40lbs over weight and they said he's agressive. Mom says he's a snot bag to other dogs but, he's taking correction well. I brought him out to play Bc style with him and he peed himself. I seriously dont think this is an agressive dog. Misunderstood and endulged but, smart enough to learn the right way again.

[juliepoudrier]

I've gotten a pup as young as 6 weeks because of travel/transport circumstances. Personally I prefer to get a pup around 7 weeks or close to it, but wouldn't turn down a pup of any age if it was from a cross I really liked (the exception being if I thought that the way it had been raised to that point would result in problems that would be difficult to overcome). I prefer to vaccinate according to *my* preferred schedule (minimal vaccination, and I'm not convinced of the utility of any vaccine before 7-8 weeks) and raise them the way I want to raise them, which are reasons for taking pups younger rather than older. But as I said I likely wouldn't turn down an older pup from a cross I really wanted.

 

J.

[Ooky]

We were looking for a 7-8 week-old pup, but were finding few pups of any age in rescue. I found a litter of 5.5 week-old pups and was shocked a rescue was putting them up for adoption so early, and am surprised to see knowledgeable members like JulieP having no problem with 6-week old pups. If you are experienced it probably isn't a big deal but I was very worried about my ability to finish off the training of bite inhibition myself with my first puppy if it was less than 7 weeks old.

 

We ended up with Odin, from a breeder, and he was 10.5 weeks old. I was a little worried this was too old for bonding and all that stuff - I shouldn't have worried because he basically bonded with me on the car ride home - good memories. While he wasn't AS tiny an adorable as I had originally wanted, it was still a great age.

 

While I don't think his breeder was a great working-dog breeder and wouldn't go back to them again for that reason, I do think they did a GREAT ob with socialization, which is probably why he didn't suffer any from the later pick-up. And as kids at the farm had the job of socialization (worked for college money), I think this is a huge part of why he just absolutely LOVES kids now, and always has. So I voted "only if the breeder does certain things."