Went Back To See Farmer Today

[Sue R]

Neutered male dogs can tie with females. Sounds like Mel needs her own chop-chop appointment...

 

I would sincerely expect that, once she's spayed, she would not allow him to mount her but it sounds like she's coming well into heat now.

 

Good luck!

[SoloRiver]

Mating dogs will tie. Usually they're done in around 20 minutes. When Fly was still intact she and Solo (neutered) would go for it when she went into heat and managed to tie twice, once because I didn't think he had it in him and the second time because I didn't realize putting a sanitary napkin on Fly wouldn't stop them. It wasn't a big deal -- it was odd, but I knew it was normal (other than the fact that Solo has no testicles) and I figured it's their business, so...

 

Fly is spayed now and will still allow Solo to mount her but they obviously don't really see the point anymore. She was very flirtatious when she would go into season and for want of a better descriptor I would say she used to seduce him.

 

Mel is a GREAT name!

[juliepoudrier]

Good thing you got on the Internet and read up before forcibly trying to separate them. Doing so can cause physical damage to either or both dogs. As others have noted, a male, intact or not, will mount an intact female who is in standing heat. The drops of blood are your clue that Mel is in heat. If you plan to spay her, it's safest for her if you wait about three months *after* she finishes this heat cycle. Be glad Sam was neutered or you'd be expecting a litter of pups in a couple of months....

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

Mick will tie to Dew (Mick is neutered) anytime Dew comes in.

I try and discourage this behavior but haven't found anything that says it's "bad" for either.

I worried that maybe he was introducing bacteria into Dew just by the act but that was argued that if that were true then an intact male could do the same thing. Still not quite convinced but I try not to worry to much.

So I don't get to upset and we refer to it around here as "safe sex".

Still, I agree with Melanie...it seems strange.

BTW they(Mick and Dew) come untied pretty quickly, like 5 minutes or less. I was wondering if it takes less time to untie since he is neutered. But really don't have the answer.

 

Yep...just get Mel spayed and you won't have to worry about it. Plus when it happens around other people there's always a huge discussion which I'd just as soon avoid.

[mbc1963]

Well, this won't be of any consolation, but it's a good story. My family never had my first dog, Charlie, spayed - it was the 70s and men were even "mannier" then.

 

My older brother came home one day when he was about ten. He said, "Mom... Charlie is stuck to some dog up on the hill... and the lady is REALLY mad!"

 

Mary

[BorderCollieSam]

Thanks for all your replies, they eventually separated after about 40 minutes, and yes it was a VERY good job we have the Internet!

 

We have never experienced this before, we shouted at them when we noticed what they were up to (they were in the conservatory) we got up whilst Sam was mounting her, and when we walked towards them shouting, Sam didn't dismount, instead he seemed to cock his left leg over the back of mel so he could turn around, and thats when we realised there was a problem as they were then both bum-bum and they couldn't get apart.

 

We were just looking at them at first, wondering what could have possibly gone wrong for this situation to happen, but then Sam started making some wining noises and it was obvious he was in discomfort, thats when we tried to help, i didn't have a clue what was going on, and neither did my wife, i tried to cock Sam's left leg back over Mel as thought it possibly got caught up due to him cocking his leg over her and turning around before he took it out, but it didn't help, so we looked under Mel to see if we could see anything but it was obvious they were still 100% conected as nothing was visible, thats when i went on the Internet and was totally shocked that it was normal!

 

Yes i intend getting Mel speyed, however i didn't expect her to come into season 4 days after getting her!

 

I was also advised by the vet the other day when she had her injections and microchip that spaying should be done a certain time after her season, so now we know she has had a season we can make arrangements for a few months time.

[BorderCollieSam]

For those who have read through this thread, i.e., how timid and frightened Mel is of sound, my wife tried to adjust her lead the other morning whilst out in the fields, but one of those automatic loud sounders to scare the birds away from the fields (sounds like a gun) went off and she managed to pull the lead out of my wifes hand and darted away from sight, my wife managed to find her again but after about 15 minutes....

 

What do you think are the chanced of Mel becoming more confident and those types of sounds no longer bothering her anymore? She is around 2-2.5 years old......

 

Obviously i have no intentions of letting her off the lead all the time she is like this, as she is a nervous wreck, however i'm just wondering whether she will be on the lead for the rest of her life?

 

Its funny how she is learning from Sam, as when i come in from work now she runs to me with Sam for cuddles, and then she runs up the stairs with Sam as i go up and as i'm getting changed out of my work clothes Sam is laying in a down position on my bed looking up at me with his loving eyes, and Mel is sitting there on the bed just looking at me.....

 

Also, Mel seems to be constantly panting.........Sam NEVER pants unless he's been on a 7 mile bike ride with me.....

[Jack & Co.]

Also, Mel seems to be constantly panting.........Sam NEVER pants unless he's been on a 7 mile bike ride with me.....

 

My dog does this when he is anxious and stressed. I think you need to continue to slowly and gently ease Mel into her new life with you. I would imagine she is overloaded mentally trying to fit in with her new environment and family. Give her time to adjust and don't rush her.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Agreed on the stress thing. As for the noise sensitivity, they generally don't outgrow it; in fact, such sensitivity usually gets worse with age. I think if you know in advance that there will be noises that are scary to Mel, it's best to keep her leashed. We often see sad stories of dogs who have been lost in thunderstorms because of their fear of the noise. There are ways to desensitize, but frankly I still probably wouldn't let a noise phobic dog off leash if I knew there were likely to be noises that could make her bolt.

 

The good news is that your wife was able to find her and retrieve her this time.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Thank goodness your good wife was able to find Mel quickly (not quickly enough for both of them!). She may just always be a leash dog, at least where there is any chance of certain loud noises.

 

I'm always grateful to read of the wonderful changes in her life under your care. She's coming along and it will just take time.

 

Very best wishes!

[urge to herd]

Like Julie says, generally they don't get any better with sound sensitivity issues, until they're about 12 or 13 and they start to not hear as well.

 

But, with tincture of time, Mel will become more confident and trusting of you and her new home. She won't be so anxious all the time and will be a lot more relaxed with her new family. It took my Shoshone literally months to not duck into her living room crate when DH stood up from his chair! That she is running up to you is a great sign.

 

There will be some setbacks, just back up a few steps, and go right on treating her well. She's lucky to have you.

 

Ruth

[Maralynn]

In my experience, once my quirky dog understood who she trust and where "safe" was, she didn't have as big of an issue with noises. She still doesn't like gun shots and the like, but instead of running in a panic, she'll turn to me or run to the house or car. If it's a true phobia, it most likely will not get better, but if this is more due to the fact that she hasn't yet settled in or become comfortable with her new surrounding you may see some improvement as she relaxes a bit and gains confidence.

[SoloRiver]

Agree with Marilyn. Unfortunately noise phobias tend to become worse, not better, but sometimes they learn to run to you instead of running away. My Solo is very noise phobic, but his "sit" and "lie down" are so ingrained that if I tell him to "sit" he'll stop running and I can catch him. He also has a tendency to run up to the closest parked car and want to get in, which makes him easy to catch. In the meantime I would leave a long line on Mel so that you can catch her if she bolts.

[JohnLloydJones]

Unfortunately noise phobias tend to become worse, not better, but sometimes they learn to run to you instead of running away.

That's also my experience. Senneca is very noise sensitive, but when afraid, she will either freeze or come running to me. Her place of refuge during thunderstorms in under my bed at night or tight up against my wife during a working day when I'm not at home.

[pansmom]

Vala is mildly thunderphobic and sound reactive (only thunder, thunder-y noises, and the clicker basically at this point although at first a TON of things like electronic sounds and music set her off--so she's come a long way but unfortunately we live near a pipe yard and she can still hear barely audible thundering noises just under the scope of normal human hearing off and on throughout the day). During the day in the house at first she ran PELL MELL for her kennel every time something dropped in the pipe yard (it's a barely audible sound from about half a mile away but noise carries well here during winter). Then she switched to calmly trotting to a nesty spot on a rug in the bathroom. Now about half the time she trots to me in bed or under my desk at my feet . The other half it's the bathroom. So she is trotting to me about half the time she's scared indoors--this after about 5-6 months. She is not scared of these pipe yard noises, interestingly, when we are out and about. She is only scared of them in the house. I think because when we're indoors she can't tell if they're thunder or not but when we're outdoors she knows they're not, so she's fine. But Vala if she does get scared outdoors (not in the back yard--there she'll trot for the back door) but when we're out, off leash, she runs to me, not away, and presses against my leg. So there is hope. Give Mel time to see how much of this is typical behavior and how much is all the new-environment stress. She seems to be copying Sam's behavior. She may learn to copy him on this a little bit too. Just be sure to ignore it and not coddle her too much at first, so she can see no one she's around thinks the things she's freaking out about are a big deal. As for the panting, agree with others, she's probably stressed out. Oh and you are probably doing this already but JUST ON THE OFF CHANCE YOU AREN'T, if Mel were my dog I would be praising her about 50 times a day every time she does something right, to try to build her confidence and build our bond... She sounds like she is insecure and a bit fragile and nervous, so this could go a long way. I wouldn't be raising my voice with her, even when she does something wrong, unless it was something TERRIBLE and DANGEROUS she did, I'd just give her nonverbal cues that she was wrong (like looking away or turning away, just basically withdrawing attention), again to help her adjust and try to build the bond. And even if it was something terrible, I'd probably just say "no MA'AM" or something like that. I think you're already doing this with her and aware of all this because of your description of how you reacted when she put her paws on you - I think you handled that exactly right, it was progress - but I just wanted to say this anyway to kind of confirm that I think you're going in the right direction with that. You don't want her to crack under the pressure right now while she's still adjusting.

 

P.S. I have been thinking about what the farmer said about how he thought someone must've yelled at her for working sheep too hard and that's why she's afraid to work sheep - that comment in conjunction with how afraid you said she was of the farmer and how she wouldn't go within 50 feet of him or whatever it was you said - I know the farmer seems like a good guy and all, but couldn't it be that he was the one who yelled at her (before he knew she was so nervous, perhaps because he was upset about how much he paid for her)? I mean he's human after all. So anyway, I'd be totally gentle with this dog especially for these first few months and spend lots of one on one time (you or your wife, whoever is going to be her primary person) so she learns to trust. Vala trusts me and my husband completely... but she was very nervous before we got her... she ran and hid under the desk at the shelter. I didn't even go get her out, I asked the tech to do it and bring her to me (she trusted the tech, I didn't want to push her) and then after 5-6 times of picking her up to "save" her from situations where she was scared (with the cats or other dogs loose in the neighborhood as we were walking) she came to trust us completely and now she is so much more confident it's awesome.

[bcnewe2]

Has anyone else found that as a dog passes a certain age, the noise phobia levels off then actually starts stablizing? Maybe not better but more a routine? I don't think it will never be gone but easier to manage.

 

All my dogs but 1 have noise phobia, 3 out of 4 have gotten better. Those 3 are over the age of 7.

 

Also, ISTM a dog w/NP is a runner or a hider. Not to say they don't run to hide but it's more a run for cover instead of run for you life. I've only owned 1 dog that ran for her life. The rest are hiders.

 

Could be trust as part of the issue but I've known runners that were quite bonded to their owners and they still bolted if given half a chance.

 

Do you think it's more stress involved with the run for you life dogs? Maybe the hiders are a tiny bit less stressed?

 

I'm sure DS's DW will be a bit more prepared now that she knows what can happen. I walk all my dogs off lead even tho they have NP. They are all hiders so at most they run for the house or car.

[geonni banner]

When I got my dog (at 6 mos. of age) she was afraid of almost all noise. Cars, a tin can hitting the kitchen floor, thunder, you name it - but then she was also afraid of people, things that move and don't make noise. In short, she was completely unsocialized.

 

Of all her fears, the noise thing is the first one that seems to be all but gone (at 18 mos.). This was accomplished by having bits of cheese and hot dog practically raining from the sky at the advent of any noise. (She was also very underweight, so this was not so bad as it could have been and yes Virginia, I too have been known to wave liver at a dog! )

 

A sudden loud noise will still give her helicopter-ears and the rolling eye, but she settles pretty quickly, and never skitters more than a few steps. Thing is, I'm not sure if she qualifies as a noise-phobic dog, for her I think it was more that she simply had not experienced noise.

[juliepoudrier]

Thing is, I'm not sure if she qualifies as a noise-phobic dog, for her I think it was more that she simply had not experienced noise.

I think dogs who have not experienced life in a house or a lot of normal noises may tend to fear them until they get used to them (heck, most of mine still fear the vacuum even though they hear it often enough), but I don't think that kind of fear is the same thing as an actual phobia. IME dogs don't necessarily grow out of phobias and they dog get worse with time. All of my dogs who are thunderphobic are still thunderphobic--even those who are older and losing some hearing acuity. Melanie can probably clarify or refute this, but I think it's generally true that many noise phobic dogs are fine as puppies and begin to exhibit the phobia sometime around 2 years of age, give or take.

 

J.

[sweet_ceana]

^^^^ I have always been under the same impression. She could be sound reactive instead of phobic. Sound reactivity is not the same as phobia. When we first got Poke he was very stressed and upset by loud sounds (even raising your voice.) He was never scared of these sounds, but they stressed him because he felt they were not right and he wanted them to stop. We have been able to desensatize him from these types of sounds so that he is ok around them. I have always been under the impression that sound reactivity can be improved upon where as a phobia is a phobia aka sheer terror and cannot be "fixed."

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Everybody,

 

Yes my wife did a really great job at getting Mel back when she bolted the other day, she phoned me on my mobile phone whilst i was in London, she sounded really relieved, and then told me what had happened, she said she cuddled Mel when she found her and had tears streaming from her eyes as she had gone from being so sad/worried for Mel's safety (worrying what may happen to her) to being so overjoyed with happiness with eventually finding her.

 

It is very interesting what people have been saying about thunderphobic dogs, as i remember a long time ago as a child, we had a labrador who started panting and walking around the house in circles whenever it thundered. The panting is the same as what Mel does when out on a walk.

 

Mel has come on leaps and bounds in the house, you would never have thought it was the same dog we brought home 1 week ago. Not meaning this in a nasty way, but i would even go as far as saying she is a flirt! She keeps coming up to Sam and uses her nose to tickle him and licks him, and then pricks her ears up and stands proud and rubs herself up against him, she wiggles her bumb in his face and then runs away from him looking over her shoulder in the process and runs up the stairs in the hope that Sam chases her! (which 9 times out of 10 her does!). I found them again upstairs today 'tied together' like they were the other night!

 

I feel like i'm a dog myself when i come home, as i'm bombarded by the two of them and they don't leave my side, as i say they come upstairs with me onto my bed and wait just watching whilst i'm getting changed, then i try and give them a cuddle but they compete with each other to see who can get the most cuddles and in the process nearly sufforcate me, its almost like they think i'm one of them!

 

If Mel has to be on a lead for the rest of her life then so be it, providing she is happy with her new life then that doesn't bother me.

[mbc1963]

Well, maybe it's a good thing that Mel came into heat so soon in your house. Hormones work wonders to help dogs "fall in love."

 

Mary

[juliepoudrier]

Don't be surprised if much of that flirtatious behavior goes away once she's out of heat.

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

In my experience it does seem to come on at the age of 2. With Dew it came on way eariler but I swear Mick helped her along the way. She had not really become NP but would react to Mick being upset. Then when it did finally hit at around 2 she became way more effected. She is also a dog that will run to her hidey spot if you make a strange noise with your mouth. I think that is related to the severe NP that she sufferes from. She is one of my few who will even quit working stock if it thunders. I've been known to take Mick out and work sheep if the thunder is way off and not a saftey hazzard, it seems to help him keep himself together.

Raven was my under socialized dog. She had to get used to everything. But the one thing she has never experienced is NP She was reactive to everything when she first came home but once accustomed to reg. life. noises don't particularly bother her. I can see her react a tiny bit on occasion, but I think it's off the other dogs, she does not suffer NP on her own.

 

Like I said earlier, I don't think the NP goes away but sorta like the dogs get used to the routine of freaking out when something like a Thunder storm happens.

OMT....we had huge noisey equipment here last spring. Air breaks were particulary scary to all the dogs. The heavy equipment could set off the same type behavior that other noise phobia's do. After being bombarded everyday for months it did not go away but was managed by each dog on their own. Some chose not to go outside, others stayed away from the noises or hid somewhere close by. Maybe cause they were able to figure out where the noises came from and could be sorta predicted, it left them handling that little part of the phobia better than the random nosies that still freak them out (thunder and fire crackers)

 

It does make me wonder, Mick and Jazz suffer from NP, but for some reason they have gotten better over the years. Pach was bad but due to his hearing loss is really almost over it. Might help that we really don't get the same type of storms here in CO. If any they are few and far between. Maybe that's why it feels they've gotten better...hmmmmm. But Dew is one of the worst cases I've ever had even here where we don't get that much thunder. I'm just greatful that she chooses to put herself under the bed or in my car when something gets her going.

[martySQ]

I found with my dog..in the house after she was terrorized by the vacuum, the mixer, etc. that if I sort of imitated the noise before it happened ...on some of the things, she was ok. Esp. the items that hadn't previously been used in her presence. wish I had figured that out before the vacuum and mixer though!

[BorderCollieSam]

Mel came into our bedroom this morning to wake us up, she was using her nose to push me whilst standing up on the side of the bed with her front paws, she eventually got me up, as i got out of bed (i can't see much until i have put my contact lenses in) but it looked like she was more white than black!

 

I called her to me so i could look more closely, her whole middle section was completely white, through the night she had somehow managed to get my wifes knickers on and they were all the way up to her mid section!

 

It certainly gave us a giggle!