BorderCollieSam Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Hi, don't know if any of you recall my history but i'm the owner of Sam, who is now 6 months old, i purchased him from a sheep farmer in North Wales who had a litter of pups from two of his working dogs. We went back to Wales this weekend, and i've been keeping in touch with the farmer and he said we could visit him whenever as he lives on his own, he said he's made some cake and we can visit him and have some cake and tea. Went back to see him this weekend, he was great, he got his Quad Bike out and gave both me and my children a ride up and down the hills of his farm and it was fantastic. We also got to see Sams mum and dad again, and his other two Border Collies. However, this is the question..... One of the other Border Collies is a female, 16 months old, he purchased her to take over from Sams dad as he is now 10 years old and is a strong working dog, but he knows he can't go on working forever, however the new female, although she is VERY responsive to commands, she scoots along the ground from left to right like a blinking sniper! However she is VERY timid and frightened, so much so that she won't even come to you, if you call her she starts to approach with her tail waggling in between her legs, but won't fully commit and ends up running away, apparently she won't work the sheep either, she won't even follow the farmer out with the other dogs to the field, the farmer believes she 'may' have been punished for going after sheep before he got her. He apparently paid a lot of money for her from a sheepdog breeder and trainer..... He asked me if i wanted her, she is a long haired female, Sam is a short haired/smooth coated male. I have spoken with the wife about her and we've told him we will have her if he definetely wants a new home for her, he said that he will be doing sheering within the next two weeks, so will wait until then and give her one last chance, and if she doesn't show any interest then she is ours. What do you think? I personally believe that i can bring her around and gain her trust in time....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody & Duchess Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Cody, our rescue dog, was scared, skiddish, and not very trusting when we got him. Within 3 months, he was doing really well with his commands and connecting to us. Now, one year later he is the most amazing dog. This afternoon, he snuggled with my husband when they both took a nap - craddled in my husbands arms. Cody is no small dogs, so it was a really funny picture. He loves people now, prances up to them like they were put here on earth to admire him and scratch his head. I would say - go for it. Reject herding dogs can make wonderful life long pals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Sometimes dogs can take quite a while to warm up to their new owners, so I wouldn't get my hopes up too much: she may come around and start working. If he paid a lot of money for her, he'll be motivated to put in a lot of effort, too, before giving her away as a pet. BTW, did you ever tell us Sam's breeding? CR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I tend to agree with Caroline--if he's put that much money into her, I find it hard to believe that he'd give up on her that easily. It can take working dogs up to a year to fully switch over to a new handler. If he does decide to give up on her then there's no reason why you couldn't turn her into a pet. Many border collies are shy and not real social butterflies. She had her life as she knew it turned upside down when she was sold, so it's not surprising that she's a bit scared and insecure. Some dogs are never real social butterflies either, and shyness doesn't necessarily mean a dog has been abused in the past. I'm not sure why the coat types make a difference unless you're thinking of breeding them, which I hope you're not. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Sometimes dogs can take quite a while to warm up to their new owners, so I wouldn't get my hopes up too much: she may come around and start working. If he paid a lot of money for her, he'll be motivated to put in a lot of effort, too, before giving her away as a pet. BTW, did you ever tell us Sam's breeding? CR I agree, when i first got to his farm, we were standing talking and he whistled upto the hills and i looked and realised that one of his dogs was right out on top, and he whistled her down, and she wouldn't come, and he said to me he's having terrible problems with that one, as he got her to take over from Sams dad when he retires him from working, and then he went on to explain that she's showing no interest in sheep, she's very timid and frightened, but he paid a hell of a lot of money for her, she came a little of the way down, and she looked beautiful, and i went towards her to try and get her down, and she came running down, very reluctantly, and she sniffed my hands, licked me, and then ran away again.... He then said that he's going to have to let her go if she doesn't come around soon, he then asked if i wanted her, then he kept repeating over the next 5 minutes, 'so when are you going to come back for her then?'....... I told him i would work on my Mrs, and then we left that evening and i texted him the following morning and said that we would have her if he still wanted to let her go, and he phoned me up and said that he's sheering in 2 weeks and he'll give her until then to come around and if she doesn't then we can have her. I know that he had her when i went to collect Sam as a pup, and that was on 08/01/09, so he's had her for a good few months and if she hasn't come around in that time then i don't know if she will........but at the same time i feel the same as you, that i don't think he will let her go. I hope he does call me in two weeks time and say i can have her!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 BTW, did you ever tell us Sam's breeding? CR Sorry you've lost me! ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I tend to agree with Caroline--if he's put that much money into her, I find it hard to believe that he'd give up on her that easily. It can take working dogs up to a year to fully switch over to a new handler. If he does decide to give up on her then there's no reason why you couldn't turn her into a pet. Many border collies are shy and not real social butterflies. She had her life as she knew it turned upside down when she was sold, so it's not surprising that she's a bit scared and insecure. Some dogs are never real social butterflies either, and shyness doesn't necessarily mean a dog has been abused in the past. I'm not sure why the coat types make a difference unless you're thinking of breeding them, which I hope you're not. J. No not intending to breed her, my Mrs has allready said that the only basis that she would agree to another would be if it was her (as she really liked her, reminded both her and me of the female i had years ago called Tara) and if Sam was castrated as she's allready told me before that she wants him castrated but i don't want him to have it done..... The reason i pointed out about the male/female and long/short coat, is because when i originally brought Sam home, although my Mrs loved him, as soon as she looked and see it was a boy, she said she would have preferred a girl, and would have preferred a long coated Border Collie as opposed to the Short Coated, although 'personally' i think the short coated look more athletic than the long coated and they are easier to manage..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Well if your better half wanted a rough-coated female, then it sounds like a good part of your argument for a second dog is already won! (And Sam won't mind losing his boy parts, especially if the tradeoff is a new buddy! Or you could just spay the female.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Well if your better half wanted a rough-coated female, then it sounds like a good part of your argument for a second dog is already won! (And Sam won't mind losing his boy parts, especially if the tradeoff is a new buddy! Or you could just spay the female.) J. The Mrs said she will have the one we are talking about, however if the farmer comes back in two weeks time and says he isn't letting her go then she won't be wanting any other..... Also, didn't want Sam castrated as i like his activeness and a little worried that he will change, and i would be gutted if it changed him as you allways hear people saying that it quietens them down...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 There is a good chance that she's a timid dog by nature (or wiring) and that she won't come around 100%. She may always be timid of strangers and like Julie said may never be a social butterfly. She could also end up being the life of the party, but you should make sure you and your wife are prepared to deal with the first scenario too, just incase. Keep us posted, we always like to see pictures of new family members! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 There is a good chance that she's a timid dog by nature (or wiring) and that she won't come around 100%. She may always be timid of strangers and like Julie said may never be a social butterfly. She could also end up being the life of the party, but you should make sure you and your wife are prepared to deal with the first scenario too, just incase.Keep us posted, we always like to see pictures of new family members! Of course, if i get her i will be so over the moon, there will be pictures everywhere of Sam and her! However, i'm not holding much hope, as personally i don't think he will let her go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Also, didn't want Sam castrated as i like his activeness and a little worried that he will change, and i would be gutted if it changed him as you allways hear people saying that it quietens them down...... I don't think the whole castration = calms dog down is 100% true. In some cases it might help a dog who is a bit dog aggressive, but in general I've not noticed it making a dog less active. In fact, for some dogs I think it improves things by preventing them from losing their minds when females in heat are around. In other words, lack of testicles seems to keep the brain better connected. My young male, who will be three in a couple of months, was castrated shortly after he turned 2. There has been no change in activity level, disposition (fortunately, he was good natured to start with), or metabolism (in fact, I have a hard time keeping weight on him). I think castration can make them less likely to posture with other males and go ga ga over females in heat, but beyond that I don't think it changes them much. (For me, the important thing would be the change for the better with respect to other intact males and females in heat, which are good things, IMO.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLLt3cK Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I adopted a similar behaving dog and it was one of the best decisions of my life. She was unsure of herself on stock and quite timid when meeting new people. My wife & I adopted her and she is the love of our life. I worked hard to make a good connection with her and she is now incredibly confident on sheep & cattle and a perfect addition to our family. I say go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 QUOTE(BorderCollieSam @ May 26 2009, 10:16 AM) Also, didn't want Sam castrated as i like his activeness and a little worried that he will change, and i would be gutted if it changed him as you allways hear people saying that it quietens them down...... I will agree with everything Julie said and add that it didn't change my male in the least. I think if done after 18 months or so, personalities are set and even they don't change. It might have calmed Mick down a bit on his agressive tendencies but that's a good thing. He is still the "man" that he was before he lost his ability to produce puppies. BTW he doesn't even konw he can't, he and Dew practice "safe sex" anytime she comes into heat. Although I will say he's not so guardy of his female around other dogs. Again a good thing. I'm going to open my mouth to spite my face.... I think men have issues with neutering their male dogs, for some reason they think it will make less of a dog. I can vouch that any male dog I've seen neuterd has not been less male in any way I can tell. Would you have issues spaying your female? My DH could of cared less when I spayed my females, but he winced when I neutered any male or even talked about it. Guess it could be him but STM it's all the males that I've encountered. Better to fix both your pets. Sam is not breeding potential or at least you do not have the abilities to prove his breed worthiness at this time, or in the near future. The female you speak about is not something that sounds like breeding material either. Just enjoy them for being themselves, and add some stress free worry about breeding or breeding related hassles. I enjoy all my fixed dogs, they are working dogs with the ability to prove their breed worthiness, but because they are fixed makes them worth no less to me than if they weren't. Can't wait to hear how your story ends. She sounds like she might make the perfect partner for you and Sam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 You said exactly what I was thinking, Kristen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 BTW he doesn't even konw he can't, he and Dew practice "safe sex" anytime she comes into heat. That made me laugh out loud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I'm going to open my mouth to spite my face....I think men have issues with neutering their male dogs, for some reason they think it will make less of a dog. I can vouch that any male dog I've seen neuterd has not been less male in any way I can tell. Would you have issues spaying your female? My DH could of cared less when I spayed my females, but he winced when I neutered any male or even talked about it. Guess it could be him but STM it's all the males that I've encountered. Hear ye, hear ye! I couldn't agree any more than I do. My husband, and virtually any male I've had the experience to discuss this with, had been of the mind that there's no issue (or it's preferable) to spay a female but there is no need (and it's not preferable) to neuter a male. My hubby, who castrates the bull calves, has even been squeamish about that even thought he totally knows it has to be done. Something about it being "too close to home"? He's at ease now with us neutering our males as I am the one that makes the appointments and does the "dirty work" of taking them to the vet and so forth. And he realizes the benefits of neutering and is a proponent - as long I don't talk about it too much. In addition, as in life, it isn't only the females' responsibility to avoid "unwanted pregnancies" but equally the males'. So, IMO, owners of both sexes can contribute to the problem or to the solution - and save themselves a lot of worry, some behavioral problems, and potential puppies by spaying/neutering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 lol, while this might be heading off topic, as a man, I have no trouble with the thought of neutering my male. It's a planned activity when he turns 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Here's to Brad.....and neutering! Not Brad but dogs! Micks's been neutered for almost 4 years and it still bothers my DH. Mick is my only male (besides the male LGD puppy) and he's DH's partner. I don't know why it bothers him but it does. If ladies hear of spaying a female pup or even getting our own female reproduction organs fixed, it's time to PARTY! Guess it's a gender thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I do think "the times, they are a-changing" with regards to spay and neuter (neuter, especially) but it is sad that there are so many people who chose to leave their animals intact for whatever less-responsible reason they may have, that results in more animals without homes. My husband and I are of an older generation, and I see more and more younger men (and women) who are open to being responsible and spay/neuter, but I do still see a lot of "hold-outs" who wouldn't do that to their dog. My husband's change of mind only came about in the last 10 years or less. I do think education and open-mindedness are making inroads but it seems like such an uphill battle. No matter where I go, since I have a couple of dogs that "look the same", everyone is always asking either if I am going to breed them or if whichever one is smallest is the other ones' baby. No, and no. And some seem positively shocked that I don't plan to breed such (fill in the blank with pretty, smart, well-behaved, or whatever you'd like) dogs. Sorry to hijack but certain aversions to neuter (or spay) and so many people's expectations that if you have a dog or two that are in anyway "desirable" you must be planning on breeding them, just get to me sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 When me and the Mrs were speaking about getting the other dog (if the farmer will let her go - which i sincerely hope he does!), i agreed to getting him castrated as opposed to her being spayed, due to his operation being a lot easier and 'hopefully' less risky than hers...... However, up until then, and if we don't end up getting the female, i had no plans and will have no plans on having Sam castrated as i would like to keep him in his original and untouched state....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claire24 Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Also, didn't want Sam castrated as i like his activeness and a little worried that he will change, and i would be gutted if it changed him as you allways hear people saying that it quietens them down...... Sorry to be off topic but I've had several dogs spayed/ neutered over the years and not a single one has changed behaviors in a negative way. The only thing I can say ever changed is that they were easier to manage. My friend had a jack russell that he never neutered (he had "man" issues with it) and they dog would slip out and be gone for days at a time chasing the ladies. He never say anything wrong with it but it made me so nervous for him-- not only was he worsening the pet overpopulation issue but he was also at risk of being hit by a car, stolen, shot (a common occurrence around here), etc. He always assured me he would come back when he was done. One day he didn't. A neighbor had poisoned him with antifreeze. I'm not saying a neutered dog won't wander, but they won't have that "drive" anytime a female in heat comes by. In my opinion, I would be more gutted if he suffered health problems later in life because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 i had no plans and will have no plans on having Sam castrated as i would like to keep him in his original and untouched state....... That's what my DH said till we had our 3rd child and he realized is was up to him to get "fixed". Now I hear him telling all his buddies what a weight came off his shoulders by doiing the dead. doooG...he'd shoot me if he knew I was talking about his manly hood! But smiling the whole time as he knows it was for the best! I don't expect to change Sam's dad's mind, after all he is a man! but I also think he is someone who is not going to add to the maddness of over population of pets or children, at least not now that he's a member of these boards! So back on track....Why do you think the farmer is not going to offer you the pup. Sounds to me he's already made up his mind with all the times he mentioned giving her to you. I'd start planning on getting a new little wee one for Sam and you! How exciting! I've placed expensive dogs that didn't work out. (I say placed becuase I've never really sold a dog for more than what it cost to fix the pup) It was all about finding a better place than I could offer for the dog. Sounds like your farmer really cares about his working partners. Keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Hi bcnewe2, The reasons i'm doubting is because:- 1. The Mrs originally didn't want another dog, but as she was with me on the farm, and she witnessed how timid, insecure, and gentle she looked, and also that she was female (which my Mrs originally wanted) and also she was long haired (which my Mrs originally wanted), my Mrs pretty much fell in love with her....however, she has allready said that if the farmer comes back in two weeks time and says that he's going to keep her, then she won't consider any other dog.....so this is my only chance of getting another mate for Sam, and also another companion for myself - so its bound to end in tears..... 2. The farmer was speaking to us when we got to his farm about how timmid she is, and she is showing no interest in sheep, and that he believes she has been punished when she's been working/chasing sheep before he got her which may be why she is like she is now......he then asked if i wanted her, i laughed it off as thought there was no way my Mrs would agree to another dog, he then followed on, so when do you want to collect her then?, i still laughed it off, but when leaving i told him i would work on my Mrs, i texted him the following morning from South Wales (he is in North Wales), we went to see the horse racing, and said that Mrs will have the dog if he still wants another home for her, and he texted back 'Hi, i'll keep her couple of weeks yet and see if she takes interest and will decide then', he then phoned me immediately afterwards and explained that he's sheering the sheep within the next 2 weeks, and he will wait to see if she works then, as he's got to give her one last chance as he paid a lot of money for her, she came from a good breeder and trainer, but if she doesn't show interest then she is ours.... I wish i had put her in the back of the car as soon as he asked me now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 BorderCollieSam, Just curious as to why if you don't particularly want to neuter Sam and you end up with the female you don't just spay her? All other things being equal, I think it's less trouble to keep an intact male from roaming than it is to be vigilant about males coming around when an intact female is in standing heat (from a pet owner perspective anyway--that is, as someone who likes to be out doing things with the dogs, it would be nice not to have to worry about the female while you're out and about). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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