Went Back To See Farmer Today

[Elizabeth77]

Pink leather , she will love that . I hope Meg does not see it or it is I who will need to find a collar shop!!

You have two gorgeous dogs best wishes to you all.

[Tommy Coyote]

Hi everybody, yes Mel certainly seems to be enjoying her retirement years as a house dog, she is such a soft and gentle dog, when she puts her paws up on you or jumps up onto your lap, she is so light and gentle in her actions (unlike Sam who is heavy, clumsy, and like a bull in a china shop!).

 

My wife has bought Mel a really nice looking pink leather collar, each of the holes in the collar has a silver metal ring around it, however the collar is slightly too large for Mel at the moment so she is wearing Sams old collar, but once she puts on a little weight hopefully she'll grow into it.

She is just beautiful. I love the traditional black and white rough coat. I am so glad she is with you and has a great home.

[BorderCollieSam]

Well its been nearly two weeks (tomorrow) that we have had Mel and during this time i have been able to study her and have learnt a few things about her.

 

When out walking on the lead, as soon as i stop she immediately stops next to my feet and sits and looks up at me.....this is fine, apart from i can't get her to do any poos or wees when out, because as soon as she has a sniff and starts to sit down to wee or poo, i obviously also have to stop and she immediately senses when i stop and stops what she is doing and sits looking up at me....rather annoying....

 

When out walking, she is terrified as soon as she hears ANY diesel vehicle, i.e., van, lorry, 4x4 etc., bus etc.,

 

Although she has now become a lot more confident in the house with us, and is very affectionate and cuddly and comes when called without any problems, and even waggles her tail when we talk to her, as soon as i put my coat on and get the lead, she will not come near me, i have to go to her and she lays down on the floor gripping the floor tightly, and when i put the lead on her she puts the brakes on, lays on the floor and will not get up or walk out of the door, in actual fact she even wees on the floor at this point as she is so terrified.....

[Sue R]

She appears to have had some very bad associations with "putting on a coat and putting on a leash". I think that, with time and your kindness, she will come to realize that she has nothing to worry about with you or your wife. I think time (and the kindness you are showing her) will be key.

 

As far as loud vehicles, when she's able, try to get her attention focussed on you by occupying her with doing things with you if you can. If her mind is on one thing, hopefully, that will keep it off what is scaring her.

 

For the "stopping" problem, can you possibly use a long line or Flexi-type leash, and keep on slowing walking and playing out the line, giving her just enough time to do her business without you stopping, resulting in her stopping?

 

Best wishes!

[JohnLloydJones]

For the "stopping" problem, can you possibly use a long line or Flexi-type leash, and keep on slowing walking and playing out the line, giving her just enough time to do her business without you stopping, resulting in her stopping?

Perhaps it would be enough to just keep moving very slowly around her?

 

My foster Rhys, did that "sack of potatoes" trick, in the beginning, too when he didn't want to move. I'm sure that a gentle but firm approach will help Mel gain confidence in you. Give her some more time.

[MicheleS.]

I just watched the short video of Mel. She's so sweet, I just want to hug her. She reminds me alot of Chase in the way she acts (although the other side of him is a bull in a China shop).

It's so nice that you and your family are giving her a loving home.

[BorderCollieSam]

I will try the longer lead as suggested by Sue, however this is the lead that my Wife took her out on the other day which ended up getting tangled around her, this is when she tried to adjust the lead and Mel bolted!

 

Its such a shame seeing Mel like she is, its like looking at a human who is too afraid to talk about their past, you just want to be able to get inside their head and find out what happened and what is going on so you can try to help them......

 

Also, Mel has NEVER barked, its almost as though she has no voice...

[Sue R]

You've only had Mel a short time, and who knows how long or how badly she may have been treated in her past. Take your time, be grateful for her progress even when it's slow, and know you have making a huge positive impact in her life - and she knows it and appreciates it. She may just not be able to get rid of her baggage as quickly as you would like but your relationship with her will be all the better for giving her time to progress at her own pace.

 

If the long lead doesn't work, try JLJ's suggestion of just walking slowly around her. It won't hurt to try and it might work fine. Maybe just taking "baby steps would help.

[JohnLloydJones]

Its such a shame seeing Mel like she is, its like looking at a human who is too afraid to talk about their past, you just want to be able to get inside their head and find out what happened and what is going on so you can try to help them......

I know that feeling; seeing a panic attack happen and struggling to figure out what triggered it and how to help. Bad memories fade slowly away when good things swamp them out. Time is a wonderful healer. Have patience and let it do its work.

[Maralynn]

Also, Mel has NEVER barked, its almost as though she has no voice...

 

This is not at all uncommon in Border Collies - they're a quiet breed in general. I only heard Kipp bark a handful of times in the first 6 months that I had him and then it was only if he was kenneled and a cat walked past. Missy barks as a reaction to certain things, but other than that she's pretty quiet, too.

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Sue/John/Maralynn,

 

Will give that walking around her a go also, but with my other dogs in the past it allways helped them when I waited still for them as they realised I was preapared to let them go about their business, but as they say no 2 people/dogs are alike so anything is worth a go, as she is doing everything in the house at the moment, but I don't want to let her know it's unnacceptable at the moment just in case it sends her a few steps backwards in the progress we've allready made.....

 

The way I'm looking at it is if we can get her confidence outside then we can correct the problem that way.....

 

Regarding the 'no barking', she hasn't made 'any' noise out of her mouth since we've had her, not even when she has been playing with Sam, and she was also in heat last week and even during that period she never made a single noise.....

 

I might get the vet to check her voicebox when I take her back in a couple of weeks for her next set of injections......

 

By the way, I don't think I told you but her coat is starting to look lovely soft and shiny now! We are really pleased with this as she looked so so old and worn out when we got her.

[Sue R]

If she's doing her business inside the house because she can't do it when you are stopped outside, you might try a couple of approaches. One would be to tether her to you in the house so that she is always within a few feet of you, and you can monitor her for signs of impending need. I don't believe you crate at all but that might be an alternative for inside the house when you can't tether.

 

The other alternative, that I would strongly advise trying, would be using a long line so that she can be still and do her thing and you can keep walking, slowly, of course.

 

Does she not relieve herself in the yard (garden)? Is that not an alternative for you? You could scoop when she's done.

 

I can see how you are working hard to make her life a good one, and wish you all the best!

[alligande]

The peeing at the back door when you get the lead etc. is called passive urination, our first Border Collie has this response to certain situations. If you search this board or else where you will find a lot more info.

My new dog who is 6 months does not poop when we are on a leash walk, no problems in the garden or when off leash. He also hardly pees on a leash. I am quiet happy with this arrangement so I do not have to carry plastic bags of dog poop with me on a walk.

[mum24dog]

The peeing at the back door when you get the lead etc. is called passive urination, our first Border Collie has this response to certain situations. If you search this board or else where you will find a lot more info.

My new dog who is 6 months does not poop when we are on a leash walk, no problems in the garden or when off leash. He also hardly pees on a leash. I am quiet happy with this arrangement so I do not have to carry plastic bags of dog poop with me on a walk.

 

One of mine was very similar - submissive urination if you even looked at him and would never wee or poo on lead as he was so afraid of people. Heaven knows how he had been treated in the past. My guess is that he'd been punished for weeing out of fear so wouldn't go in the presence of those terrifying humans.

 

It took years until he was confindent enough to go on lead. Fortunately he was also too scared to go far away from me so I could let him off lead to go without him bolting, which doesn't seem to be the case with Mel.

 

BCS - In her case I wouldn't make a big issue of it. It's amazing how long they can hold it until they find themselves somewhere they are confident enough to go. If that's at home then that's the way it should be for the time being.

 

If it's a general house training issue (common in outside dogs living in a house for the first time) then she just needs to be trained like a puppy - frequent opportunities to go outside and plenty of reward when she does. In view of her fear issues I wouldn't use an umbilical leash as suggested earlier.

 

As for not barking, this is likely to be part and parcel of her insecurity. Drawing attention to herself when she is worried isn't a great idea. (Other dogs go to the other extreme.) Mine never uttered a sound of weeks - now he won't stop. Enjoy the silence while youm can - it may not last.

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Sue/Pam,

 

I don't think its a house training problem, i think its just plain fear.

 

She will not go out in the back garden (yard) either, whenever we open the back door of the conservatory for her to go out, she bolts back into the house.

 

We have to pick her up like a baby, and carry her to the back garden, we then have to be careful whilst closing the door as she tries to bolt back through the closing door.

 

If we are lucky to get her out into the back garden, she just sits outside the back door looking though the glass waiting to come back in, she won't even walk around the garden or have a sniff.

 

I am very reluctant to correct her for messing in the house (although it is annoying) as i honestly don't believe she can take correction at this moment in time, Sam is a different story entirely, although he is fully house trained and never messes or pees in the house, however he is a mentally strong dog and can handle correction, however it would petrify Mel so we are just clearing up at present and ignoring her completely whilst doing so.

 

When we manage to get Mel outside the house for a walk, she seems to enjoy herself, although as discussed above she seems to be scared of approaching Diesel vehicles.

 

Sam was always off the lead until i got Mel, however Mel is too much of a responsibility to have Sam off the lead, as i can't keep an eye on him and Mel at the same time, so have Sam and Mel on two seperate leads but in the same hand and they walk along next to each other like twins.

 

However, if i'm in an empty farmers field, i know no other dogs are about, so i let Sam off the lead, however i keep Mel on the lead for obvious reasons, however she keeps turning to face me in front of me and gently raises her front paws onto my stomach as if asking me to let her off to run with Sam, obviously i'm reluctant to do that at this moment in time.

 

However i will try the longer leash, or i might even buy a long length of lightweight rope and try her on that...

[Sue R]

I agree that I don't believe it is a house-training problem so much as a issue of fearfulness and insecurity, and I think that Pam hit a lot of issues right on the head. Submissive urination is a problem because if you do scold for it, it just makes the problem worse and contributes to the anxiety - she can't help herself as it is.

 

Now, over in UK, do you have what are called puppy training pads? I know of people with small dogs and/or dogs in urban areas that use these. They are plastic-backed, absorbent pads that have been "marked" with a scent that entices a dog to use them for relieving themselves when they can't go outside. I wonder if this might be a temporary option for Mel - an expense, yes, but a "safe" and non-damaging place to relieve herself inside until she gets to the point where she can relax enough outside to begin to go outside. I know that an option like this is not optimal because it does develop a habit of going inside but, if that's your problem already, it might be helpful in confining the mess to an easily-cleaned, suitable spot.

 

For some folks, once a dog or pup becomes habituated to using this product in the previously-used, unprotected location, it can be moved closer and closer to the door. At some time, it may be moved outside when and where the dog may be able to accomplish her business outside but on the pad, and eventually "weaned" off using the pad entirely.

 

I know you and your family are facing some real challenges with Mel but it brings a smile to my face to read your posts and see just how much affection and effort you are putting into giving this poor little girl a very fine life - full of support, love, and concern for her well-being. I might even begin to forgive you about the rabbit business! (Please, that's a tease - it's history.)

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Sue, just Googled the puppy training pads and they do them in Argos, they are here:-

 

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/part...Tab/reviews.htm

 

We have an Argos not too far away from our house, unfortunately they have just closed for today being Sunday and reduced opening hours to 16:00hrs, however i shall pick some up tomorrow and see if she will use them.

 

We certainly have bags and bags of love and affection to offer Mel, and that won't be changing because of her weeing and/or the 'other', its a hurdle that we need to get over together and once we've done that i'm sure she will shine, it might take time but we'll get there i'm sure, she is laying next to me at present staring up at me and watching me type on this PC!

 

I just can't wait until she gets her confidence and i can then advance her to the next level of training - the rabbits! (kidding )

[bcnewe2]

Dew does not suffer from shyness or much fear of anything but she is afraid of going out in the dark alone and afraid of going outside when Mick is out there first and I'm not going with (Mick is a door troll).

 

So what I've gotten used to doing is going outside with her when I know she has to go potty. I stand on the porch (keeping Mick inside) while I tell her to "go potty" and we get the job done. I've occasionly tricked her and acted like I was going out with her, she either will not go or if she has to go bad enough she'll run down and go then run back on the porch scratching at the door. I don't ever trick her if Mick is out. That's not fair! But she's not a fearful or shy dog so I don't feel to bad doing that to her. I doubt you'd want to do that with Mel.

 

It's a matter of training yourself to go out with her while she's dealing with the issue. I have a feeling as she settles in she will figure this out too.

 

Dew doesn't usually potty in the house, but she has an amazingly large bladder! I've seen her go all night, long into the next day waiting for me to actually go out with her. Not that I let that happen but sometimes it just does.

[pansmom]

You could try walking her in and out of the house and as soon as she goes out (or even if you have to carry her out the first few times) giving her some really smelly top notch treat (like fish or chicken or something) so that she begins to associate the garden with GREAT THINGS! If you can get her to eat that is. Might take some experimentation to find something that is so good she'll eat it even when nervous. For Vala this is peanut butter. . .

 

P.S. The video of Mel and Sam on the bed is so precious! It's clear you love them so much. What a great home you've given her! my husband and I loved the one of Sam and the rabbits too.

[BorderCollieSam]

You could try walking her in and out of the house and as soon as she goes out (or even if you have to carry her out the first few times) giving her some really smelly top notch treat (like fish or chicken or something) so that she begins to associate the garden with GREAT THINGS! If you can get her to eat that is. Might take some experimentation to find something that is so good she'll eat it even when nervous. For Vala this is peanut butter. . .

 

P.S. The video of Mel and Sam on the bed is so precious! It's clear you love them so much. What a great home you've given her! my husband and I loved the one of Sam and the rabbits too.

 

Hi Pansmom, i'll give that a try, however will have to find something very nice as you say because she doesn't eat outside as she is so nervous..

 

P.S. That photo in your signature of 'Vala'?? That dog looks so beautiful!

[ItsADogsLyfe]

maybe try keeping the garden door open and you going out and playing with Sam. Give Sam lots of praise and let her watch from inside. I'd do this lots until she is tempted enough to step a foot out the door. Just remember everything will be baby steps for her. Don't rush her, just give her lots of time to see that life outside isn't so bad, in fact it can be very good.

[pansmom]

Hi Pansmom, i'll give that a try, however will have to find something very nice as you say because she doesn't eat outside as she is so nervous..

 

Yeah maybe what ItsaDogsLyfe said above first, then the treating - but yes, even when Vala is really nervous she will still eat a bit of smelly salmon for example.

 

P.S. That photo in your signature of 'Vala'?? That dog looks so beautiful!

 

Thank you! Yes Vala is looking and feeling very well these days! And she is getting less and less timid all the time - though still polite of course (erm, for the most part). She is even learning the names of her toys and doing minor tricks and enjoying helping around the house. Very exciting, for a dog who never lived inside before or learned very many verbal commands...

 

Here are larger version of the photos, which my husband took - not to hijack, sorry - but Mel does remind me of Vala a great deal (similar issues, background) so you can probably look forward to this sort of fur health and gorgeousness in short order! Although Mel is looking pretty great and settling in quickly already! I think you are doing the absolute right thing by not pressuring her and indulging her and taking it slow!

 

 

Forgive the stare in the second picture - she used to be VERY afraid of the camera, because she is thunderphobic and it flashes, and she has figured out it's not a threat now (no more shaking or running) - but she still alerts at the sound of the camera zoom. Incidentally, the way she got over her fear of the camera is a few weeks ago she watched DH take pictures of me from the next room, coming in to see what was going on and watching out of curiosity... We ignored her though we both saw it, and now she seems to have picked up that there is nothing terribly alarming about cameras. So there really is something to ItsaDogsLyfe's advice!

 

OH AND ETA: Regarding the fear of the leash. Try grabbing the leash without coat first and treating. And then putting it back up and doing nothing. And then again, slowly building on the action, treating intermittently, breaking the action of grabbing leash and coat and putting leash on her into TINY TINY component parts, treating intermittently all the while, until you have the leash on her and she is excited. Then treat and take leash off. And then slowly build toward the door, in and outside, the garden first... just basically in very small 5-10 minute sessions a couple times a day you may be able to take the edge off the fear. If at any time she does the submissive urination or freezes up, stop the exercise and next time go back to a place where you know she won't freak out where she is happy and relaxed. It's been my experience that desensitization can work wonders with shaping behaviors and reassociating the positive with previously perceived negative patterns.

[BorderCollieSam]

Well, what can I say, Mel is certainly coming around, becoming more confident, however we've had a little forensic investigating going on today....

 

History....Sam has always had a chewing problem, he just loves chewing anything and everything, whether it be an old margarine tub or a plastic bottle, he has to chew it....however Sam has NEVER chewed anything of any value, apart from the table legs of our dining room table when he was a few months old.

 

This morning we woke up, and our expensive leather sofa/couch has been chewed, the middle cushion (its fixed into the sofa) has been ripped apart and also the seperate/aftermarket cushions we purchased for the sides of the leather suite had also been chewed......i am estimating this will cost us approx £250.00-£500.00 to have repaired....

 

Then we noticed the pedal on our excercise bike has also been chewed....our immediate thoughts were Sam, as he has a chewing problem and we have NEVER seen Mel pay ANY attention to anything with regard to chewing, she doesn't have the confidence to do anything apart from lie down and go to sleep....she is a very docile dog....and doesn't have any where near the energy that Sam has....

 

We had to go out tonight for a few hours so thought it best to put Sam in the back garden whilst we were out and leave Mel in the house.

 

We tidied up and hoovered the house before we left, were gone about 3 hours and when we returned we were shocked to see a torn up slipper on the settee (we have never seen Mel on the settee) and also my wife attempted to boot the second PC up that we have in the dining room and it wouldn't work, i asked her to check the power cable was plugged in the wall, as she was checking she discovered the cable had been cut/chewed into two pieces!

 

Mel is the only one that was in the house tonight, it appears she is living two personalities, one that she has when she is in the company of people (playing the shy/timid card) and another personality she has when she is out of sight of people, possible personality disorder!

 

When we put Sam in the yard today and before we went out, he opened the rear door to the garage and due to me having the front garage door open at the time, he went into the front garden and Mel bolted out of the garage and up the quite cul-de-sac that we live in. I called her back and she came running back to me with her tail between her legs and went straight through the front door of our house, i was happy that she knew where she lived and trusted me to come back to me when called - that at least is one good things that has come out of it!

[bcnewe2]

Could be the signs of sepration anxiety. That's interesting, she's been alone and more or less unattached her whole life, now she's found the best thing she's ever had. Is she worried that you aren't coming home?

How bout a crate for little Mel?

[BorderCollieSam]

Could be the signs of sepration anxiety. That's interesting, she's been alone and more or less unattached her whole life, now she's found the best thing she's ever had. Is she worried that you aren't coming home?

How bout a crate for little Mel?

 

My wife was asking that tonight whilst we were out regarding Sam, because we thought it was him who was responsible for the damage today and we therefore left him in the yard tonight and as i say my wife suggested a crate....

 

I know a lot of people crate their dogs, i went to a house only the other evening and see a dog in a cage, 'personally' (i know there are some on this forum that crate their dogs and each to their own, i'm not saying there is anything wrong with that), however 'personally' i do not like the look of a caged dog....i don't even like to see dogs kept on leads all the time when they are outside, i understand there are dogs that must be kept on leads for one reason or another, however 'in the right place' i like to see dogs run and enjoy themselves, the very thought of seeing a dog in a cage makes me sad...