BorderCollieSam Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Hi There, I joined this forum when i got my Border Collie puppie (Sam) around 4 weeks ago from a Farm in North Wales. Sam is coming on really well, both growing in size, and his affection thats being displayed to us, however he seems to still be nipping and snapping at my wife and 2 daughters......but not me.......i correct him everytime he does it when i'm close by, but a lot of the time he won't do it when i'm with them, only when i'm not! Sam is now nearly 10 weeks old and he is having his final set of injections on Saturday, so really looking forward to taking him out for proper walks/runs/training 1 week after his final injections. However, in the meantime i've been taking him out with me in the car, and also been letting him out in the back garden. Sam can do sit, paw, down, stay in both sit and down (for count of 10), he picked this up within the first week! However, nothing could have prepared me for the exictement of what happened on Saurday morning! We have 6 rabbits and let them out regularly for runs. Sam has seen the Rabbits and sniffed them through the hutches many times but never been in the garden with them when they've been loose. However, Saturday morning the rabbits were allready out running in the garden, the hutch is on the left of the garden and all rabbits apart from 2 were near the hutch. One rabbit was in the middle of the garden, the other was on the far right. I let Sam out of the house because i thought he wanted to go to the toilet, but ss soon as i let Sam out he lowered his body, tail between his rear legs, his head went down low and his ears pricked up! He approached the rabbits really stealth like, just like a cat does when its after a bird before it pounces, and then he stopped still in his position, looked at both rabbits left and right, you could really see he was thinking about the situation, and then he darted between the two of them, and came back towards the rear of the right hand side rabbit, chased it towards the centre rabbit and then chased both of them back towards the hutch! It was incredible to watch, i was so pleased and he looked like he was really enjoying himself. I let him have a play with the rabbits for about 1/2 an hour, he was running constantly and afterwards came into the house and went to sleep for about 3 hours. Here are some photos of him with the rabbits, scroll to the bottom of the page.... http://www.sonifenton-scott.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/MyDog.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I hate to be negative but I also have a pet rabbit and you should never allow your dog to "work" your rabbits. Being pursued by a potential predator is extremely stressful for a rabbit and I believe you should never, ever allow you dog to harass your rabbits. Sometimes we enjoy certain behaviors but have to realize that they are not something that we should allow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I hate to be negative but I also have a pet rabbit and you should never allow your dog to "work" your rabbits. Being pursued by a potential predator is extremely stressful for a rabbit and I believe you should never, ever allow you dog to harass your rabbits. Sometimes we enjoy certain behaviors but have to realize that they are not something that we should allow. Hi Sue, Sam wasn't biting the rabbits, he was just chasing them around, we have six, so it wasn't the same rabbit everytime either, so they were having plenty of time to recuperate, he was only having a play, and if anything the rabbits were getting some much needed excercise as well..... I can understand your concern, however surely the 'predatory' and 'stressfull' rule applies to sheep that are being herded, even more so when the dog has to enforce his control by nipping and pulling at the sheeps body...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I can understand your concern, however surely the 'predatory' and 'stressfull' rule applies to sheep that are being herded, even more so when the dog has to enforce his control by nipping and pulling at the sheeps body...... It is, which is why it's important for the dog to be well trained and in control when working sheep, to keep the stress to a minimum. Sheep don't seem to like to be worked from what I can see, but they shouldn't be in a panic either. I agree with Sue that the behavior, while very cute is pretty unfair to the rabbits. And I don't even like rabbits. I would also worry that as Sam matures, his play will become rougher and more serious. I know cats are a different species, but we had a slow to mature cat years ago that used to chase after rabbits in a very playful manner never hurting them. There was even one rabbit that wouldn't flat out leave either due to injury or protecting a nest, I don't know but the two just bounced back and forth in a clearing between bushes until I retrieved the cat. I don't think the cat killed anything other than moths his first year of life. Somewhere along the line, his play became deadly for rabbits and the "game" was over. My Lhasa killed a good sized rabbit last year -- I think he somehow broke the poor thing's back. While he has a ton of prey drive, he is only an 18 lb dog and that rabbit was fatally injured before I knew what had happened. Just something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 It is, which is why it's important for the dog to be well trained and in control when working sheep, to keep the stress to a minimum. Sheep don't seem to like to be worked from what I can see, but they shouldn't be in a panic either. I agree with Sue that the behavior, while very cute is pretty unfair to the rabbits. And I don't even like rabbits. I would also worry that as Sam matures, his play will become rougher and more serious. I know cats are a different species, but we had a slow to mature cat years ago that used to chase after rabbits in a very playful manner never hurting them. There was even one rabbit that wouldn't flat out leave either due to injury or protecting a nest, I don't know but the two just bounced back and forth in a clearing between bushes until I retrieved the cat. I don't think the killed anything other than moths his first year of life. Somewhere along the line, his play became deadly for rabbits and the "game" was over. My Lhasa killed a good sized rabbit last year -- I think he somehow broke the poor thing's back. While he has a ton of prey drive, he is only an 18 lb dog and that rabbit was fatally injured before I knew what had happened. Just something to think about. Hi Shetlander, Quite agree, if Sam was ever to get serious or rough with the rabbits then i wouldn't allow it. However, due to his softness and i know it sounds stupid saying this, but he actually looked like he knew what he was doing (don't know whether this is due to his mum and dad being working dogs on a farm), he was stealth like, and soft but in control, he seemed to know what he was doing. I recorded a couple of minutes on the camcorder, if you could see it you would see what i mean about him being gentle with them. He also helped my Mrs last night by bringing them from the bottom of the garden back up to their hutch, to save my Wife running around after them! As i said its giving the rabbits excercise (all the time they are not being hurt or stressed) and also excercising Sams need for excercise and mental stimulation, and whilst things are as they are, i see no harm being done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 This thread is several years old, but I think Luisa does a great job explaining "prey drive". I hope you will read it and reconsider letting your puppy work, exercise, play with, whatever, your rabbits: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...ic=123&st=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Somewhere along the line, his play became deadly for rabbits and the "game" was over. My Lhasa killed a good sized rabbit last year -- I think he somehow broke the poor thing's back. While he has a ton of prey drive, he is only an 18 lb dog and that rabbit was fatally injured before I knew what had happened. Just something to think about. Hi Shetlander! Rabbits are actually extremely fragile animals. It is very easy to hurt them - especially their backs. I always cringe when I see children handling them because of this. I have a Harlequin rabbit and I never let him out with Daisy. He only comes out in the house when Daisy is playing outside. Just thought I would pass that info along. Hi BorderCollieSam, I would have to agree with the others. It is extremely cute to watch but I do think, that it will develop into an unwanted beahvior in the long run even though Sam is gentle with them. The one and only time that I tried to let my rabbit out with my dog she did try to "herd" him. It kind of freaked Quasar out and he hid under the couch. Daisy laid down and stared at him until I finally took her outside and got him back in his house. I think that it could have developed into a fixation problem in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 BCSam, please reconsider. I know you're very fond of your rabbits and of Sam, but there are some things you haven't thought about. Sam is soft and easy on the rabbits now, but that is going to change in a flash. Trust us on this. He's going to get more and more bold with the rabbits. Chasing them is fun!!! Wheeee! When he catches and bites one the first time, you're not going to be able to stop him in time to save the rabbit, and if he really likes it, he might get more than one before you can stop him. Trust us again. He will hurt them. It doesn't take very long for these dogs to get fixated on something. Already, with you and your wife laughing and enjoying him chasing the rabbits, he's gotten the idea this is a great thing. If you still don't believe us, call the man you got him from, and ask if he, a farmer with stock who uses his dogs to work them, would let any dog play that way with rabbits. And, regardless of how many rabbits Sam was chasing, they were feeling stressed. Rabbits can and do die from stress alone, much less being bitten. If you let this continue, you'll have some painful realities to deal with. You have kids, right? Do you want them to see Sam killing one of their rabbits? Harsh, yes. I've seen a small animal being killed by a dog. You don't want to. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth77 Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 HI, Sam is just gorgeous. However I have to agree with those who vetoed the idea of herding the rabbits. It is hard to imagine how they cannot be stressed. Perhaps it would be best to stop it sooner rather than later for the sake of both Sam and the bunnies. By the way one of the Border collies in your picture is the spitting image of my Meg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaporflowers Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I agree. Rabbits have a flight response, but are so delicate that if they feel their flight is not going to work, or if they feel "trapped", they can die simply from stress. I understand they had means to escape, but a situation like that can turn sour very quickly, before you have time to react. Please reconsider. I had a dog-savvy rabbit who happily greeted the dogs from within the safety of the hutch, but would become very stressed if they were loose together. For safety's sake, I stopped letting them out together, even supervised. Rabbits are much more delicate than sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Rabbits are actually extremely fragile animals. It is very easy to hurt them - especially their backs. Ok that makes sense. I was surprised because the rabbit was so large rather than babies who are the ones that my dogs tend to catch. But it really seemed to be the Lhasa who injured it rather than the Border Collie. As I said, it happened in the space of a couple of seconds. I think that it could have developed into a fixation problem in the long run. That is a good point. These dogs can be prone to getting a little OCD about some things. A friend has had issues with stopping one of her Border Collies from always poking at and pestering her cat, which is not an uncommon story by any stretch. In the end, Sam is your (very adorable) puppy and those are your rabbits. It is entirely up to you as far as what you find acceptable. I will say that there is a ton of wisdom on these boards that comes from years and years of experience with the breed. I'm only 3 1/2 years in but have learned so much here. And of course, Quinn also makes sure to keep my education up to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Not funny. Not cute. This is a puppy "practicing" his very real prey drive on your other pets. When "practice" will include "kill" is unknown. It may be tomorrow, it may be a year from now. But it will happen. I can't tell you how many calls to rescue groups start with "he was so nice but he "turned" and killed my <rabbit, parrot, chicken, cat, etc> Some people think this is "baby puppy herding". And it comes from the same source - prey drive - so it is easy to confuse. The difference with herding is that the behavior is quickly molded into something that happens with human direction on livestock, or the puppy is not allowed to do it. He is either put away or supervised/trained not to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 If you still don't believe us, call the man you got him from, and ask if he, a farmer with stock who uses his dogs to work them, would let any dog play that way with rabbits. I don't quite understand what you mean by 'would let any dog play that way with rabbits'..... It sounds as though you are implying that Sam is biting at them and trying to rip them apart from that statement. I texted the farmer earlier as he is a nice man and keeps in touch with me via text to see how Sam is, and i asked him his opinion on this. His words to me were 'As long as he doesn't hurt them. No problem, he's working dog...'. I understand your concern regarding this, as i am also an animal lover and wouldn't see ANY animal in pain or be hurt..... I will have to look into purchasing a piece of land and buying some sheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I don't quite understand what you mean by 'would let any dog play that way with rabbits'..... It sounds as though you are implying that Sam is biting at them and trying to rip them apart from that statement. By "that way," we mean chasing. Several people very experienced with the breed and with pet rabbits have already made it clear it's not a wise choice to allow your border collie to harass your rabbits, as the stress of the chase alone could kill them. But, whatever, they're your rabbits and your dog. If you choose not to listen to the advice of experienced folks, then so be it. I do hope you'll keep us updated on the progress of these "games," as the outcome would likely be educational for others down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 By "that way," we mean chasing. Several people very experienced with the breed and with pet rabbits have already made it clear it's not a wise choice to allow your border collie to harass your rabbits, as the stress of the chase alone could kill them. But, whatever, they're your rabbits and your dog. If you choose not to listen to the advice of experienced folks, then so be it. I do hope you'll keep us updated on the progress of these "games," as the outcome would likely be educational for others down the road. I wouldn't class myself as that exprienced with Rabbits, however i have had many collies in the past, Blue Merle, 2 x Black/White BC, 1 x Rough Collie, so i am a little more experienced than a novice when it comes to this breed. However, this is the first blood line working dog i have ever owned..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Maggie likes rabbits too - and when she gets totally wrapped up in the "game" the rabbit ends up dead. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Maggie used to "play" with my guinea pig and she seemed quite gentle, until the one time I put the pig on the floor and Maggie was after her incredibly fast (trying to play with the pig using her feet and mouth like she would with another dog) - luckily I body blocked her from the pig before anyone got hurt, but my heart was racing by the end of it and that was the end of her "playing" with the piggie unless the pig was in my arms and Maggie was in a down-stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 It sounds as though you are implying that Sam is biting at them and trying to rip them apart from that statement. I'd be surprised if anyone here thinks that. We just see this type of play as praticing behavior that down the road can be dangerous to the rabbits or disruptive to Sam's functioning if he becomes fixated. I still think of that cat hopping back and forth after the rabbit. Cute as can be. Not a clue about killing or harming it. The following year was a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 When I was a teenager, I raised rabbits (show type) and once killed one when it twisted it's body while getting a bath. I wasn't even holding hard onto the poor thing, it just twisted it's back to get out of the water and started screaming, broke her back. I never forgot how easy it was to kill a rabbit. I had another one panic and die from a fight with another rabbit. I hate to echo everyone here, but they are right- it is totally unfair and dangerous to allow a dog to play or "work" with a rabbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Prey drive is there, lurking, and it can turn on full blast in a flash. In the beginner working pen, we see it as the moment the dog goes from tentative, tail up, dodging the pressure of the handler (or sheep or both) aimlessly - and suddenly the dog is transformed, focused, all he wants is to GET IN THERE. In another moment his instincts to work with the handler will mold that yet again into the familiar working dog dance. But before then there will be some chasing, grabbing, biting sometimes. Stock are selected for dogs that are still wavering in this limbo, because one doesn't want to worry about what will happen that unpredictable second that the dog's prey drive turns on full force. If I'm scared that a single misplaced chomp will do severe injury or kill, then I won't be letting my puppy be a puppy. And all this happens when the dog is old enough to take a little fussing to show it the right thing to do. What this ten week old puppy needs right now is just time to be a puppy and play puppy games. He doesn't need the grown up lessons yet. He doesn't need you hovering over him, watching for that precise hair trigger moment that he might "turn on" and push a little too hard. That will surely turn him off to working for you - he doesn't have the full equipment in his brain, yet, to understand the balance a working relationship requires. Let him have a safe time to grow up - he doesn't need work right now, just play and being allowed to be a pup with just a minimum of rules - come when I call and stop what you are doing when I say so. And it shouldn't be difficult to obey those rules - there's no way he'll listen to you if gentle pushing around of the rabbits suddenly turns to chasing then catching then crunching. Life should be easy and simple for a baby puppy, not potentially scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 as long as its under control I dont see an issue, rabbits are not as fragile as people like to think, while yes that can "break" which is why I dont allow my dogs to TOUCH my rabbit, they are hardly weak creatures. my bunny has all my dogs quite well trained, they think ""ohh prey" bunny thinks "cool, punching bag!" lol HOWEVER it NEEDs to be kept under control, I dont like how much he is chasing them, I DO think he needs to be calmed down and under better control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I started on the boards with a thread very much like this. BCSam, I'm very happy that people have been really pretty nice and reasonable replying to you, because you have inadvertently wandered into a hot-button issue. Please trust me that these people totally know what they are talking about. My BC puppy was "herding" my cat. He wasn't doing anything to hurt the cat, either. I didn't understand why people here were so upset by it, because from what I could see he was in control and very gentle. He was about 12 weeks old at the time. After the replies I got here, I stopped allowing any such behavior, even though I did feel people didn't really understand what I meant. I had just never seen anything like it, how he could easily he could control the cat - and he wasn't even chasing or going faster than a walk. In fact, it seemed to be strengthening their relationship at the time. But later, oh, about 5-6 months, THEN I understood. He became a much tougher, faster, more adamant animal and even chasing blowing leaves was a potentially dangerous activity because just one day he got excited about some sort of movement and his mind was GONE. I would not want to have seen what might have happened if I had let his behavior go on. The puppy behavior you see is just that: he is not reached anything near his adult levels of drive, precision, athletic prowess, and most of all, PERSISTENCE. I love all these qualities in my dog but would never want to see them turned ON any other animal of mine that wasn't a flocking, livestock animal. Anyway, glad you are having a good time with your pup, and really it is no big deal to stop at this age, "just say no" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 would never want to see them turned ON any other animal of mine that wasn't a flocking, livestock animal. Oh, this is a fantastic point. Pretend your pup is a prodigy pianist and you give him a toy Schroeder-type piano to play on, and that's all he gets until he's twenty years old. It would be pure torture to him to try to exercise the talent he's got on ten or twelve plinky-plunk keys. He'll get frustrated and angry and probably resentful towards you. Your pup will eventually experience the same level of frustration on the rabbits. They don't work "right." It will take a lot of corrections to stop your pup from doing bad things to them, assuming you can stop him in time. Do you want to have that kind of relationship with your dog just because it's cute to see him try to control rabbits now? Wait seven or eight months, go to a sheepdog trainer, and then you can see the magic develop as it's meant to, and your pup will thank you for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Wait seven or eight months, go to a sheepdog trainer, and then you can see the magic develop as it's meant to, and your pup will thank you for it. And so will your rabbits. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Firstly, a lot of the responses I have received here are stereotyping me as a complete novice with no control over my dog, don’t know whether this is due to my low number of posts, however I can assure you that I am in no way a novice when it comes to dog training. Furthermore, I am no newcomer to the Border Collie, this is my 4th Border Collie and my 6th dog. Although I do not have any experience in sheep herding, I do have a lot of experience in dog training and know exactly how to motivate dogs to get the best out of them and also know how to correct them and gain their respect, which in my opinion is the single most important thing and the foundation of dog training, as a dog that has the uppermost respect for its master, will not want to let its master down and will strive to please him. Sam knows that when I tell him NO, it means NO. Although Sam is only 9 weeks old, he has accomplished a lot in his short life and performs the following faultlessly:- Sit Down Stay (in both sitting and down positions for count of 10) Paw No Nicely (with a low growl to my voice when he gets a little excited to see me and tries to chew my hand) Furthermore, I had a Border Collie many years ago whilst at school and I taught her to down from ¼ mile away in a field, she would run out, I would call her back, and on the way back she would down immediately everytime when told and not release until I called her again. Also, I know from the photographs that are displayed on my website that Sam looks like he’s out of control, however Sam is a puppy with lots of energy, however a dog with energy is not a dog out of control, I ask you to reserve your judgement until I can find a way of showing you a short video clip of him with the rabbits, I’m sure you will then agree that he is not out of control and is quite the opposite, he is actually in control and shows he has energy when needed but it is controlled and he actually shows respect for the rabbits. (I am in the process of trying to upload this video to You-Tube so you can see what I actually mean and will post a link to it this evening, this is the first video I’ve uploaded so please bare with me!). Furthermore, I do not think its cute to see animals under stress or suffer, and I am certainly not into bloodsports of any description. If you read my original post again, you will see that I was so shocked and surprised that Sam actually thought about the situation with the two rabbits before doing anything, you can clearly see from the video that Sam approaches the rabbits in stealth mode and then stops and looks over to the white rabbit, and then the black rabbit, before deciding what to do, as the white rabbit was in the centre of the garden and the black rabbit on the far right of the garden, and Sam must have taken into consideration their hutch being on the far left rear of the garden, and you can see the level of concentration on his face, he then ran between the middle of both rabbits, around the back of the black rabbit, and herded the black rabbit towards the white rabbit, so that they both ran back towards their hutch together. Furthermore, any training that Sam receives will be done by me directly. In my opinion, a dog should be trained by its master, the relationship that is built between the dog and his master during training and the respect that is earned both ways during such time is lost when a dog is given to somebody else to be trained. I can understand the concern, however much of what we enjoyed as children is no longer experienced by our offspring due to the Political Correctness Brigade and its such a shame that my children are no longer allowed to play conkers in the school playground or climb trees (how much fun I remember this being), due to the small minority of accidents that occurred and schools concerned about prosecution so therefore ban these activities. A fine example is Sports Day, I enjoyed this as a kid, although I wasn’t the fastest at running, it was incredibly enjoyable, especially the egg and spoon race and the wheelbarrow race, however schools have now stopped this due to competition between children being considered as unfair! It was these kinds of activities that controlled obesity which has now escalated out of control! This is indeed true with the topc in question, some of you have experienced problems with your dogs and are therefore advising me not to allow my dog with the rabbits. Although I appreciate your advise, I do not think it is fair to label me as a cruel person, as each individual situation and dog/owner is different. Sam has been with the Rabbits for half an hour on one morning so far, and about 5 minutes the other evening when my wife put the rabbits back into their hutch. I do not intend on making this a regular activity for Sam or the rabbits, the main reason for my post in this thread was that this was Sams first introduction to other animals, and he seemed to have an inherent skill from his parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Many of the people posting have a great deal of experience with working-bred dogs, stockwork, training, and even domestic rabbits. I feel their advice is very good advice, indeed. But, since you have everything under total control and your mind is made up, far be it for me or anyone else to offer any sort of advice to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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