My Border Collie Puppie with my Rabbits!

[BorderCollieSam]

Many of the people posting have a great deal of experience with working-bred dogs, stockwork, training, and even domestic rabbits. I feel their advice is very good advice, indeed. But, since you have everything under total control and your mind is made up, far be it for me or anyone else to offer any sort of advice to the contrary.

 

No need for sarcasm , i assume you've heard the expression that Sarcasm is the lowest form of witt?

 

As i have previously stated even the farmer i purchased my pup from in North Wales said it would be fine, and Farming/Border Collies/Herding have been in his family for many generations.

 

The farmer showed me a really old picture of Sams dads brother and also Sams dads Grandfather when i collected him.

[Shetlander]

No need for sarcasm , i assume you've heard the expression that Sarcasm is the lowest form of witt?

 

Never! I come from a long line of sarcastic people. It is our second language in which we are quite fluent!!!

[Maralynn]

Firstly, a lot of the responses I have received here are stereotyping me as a complete novice with no control over my dog, don’t know whether this is due to my low number of posts, however I can assure you that I am in no way a novice when it comes to dog training.

 

Not so. They are warning you of what will very possibly happen if you continue to allow your puppy free time with the rabbits. Obviously, even though you've had the breed before, this rabbit aspect is a new phenomenon for you.

 

Furthermore, I had a Border Collie many years ago whilst at school and I taught her to down from ¼ mile away in a field, she would run out, I would call her back, and on the way back she would down immediately everytime when told and not release until I called her again.

 

Very nice, but not at all uncommon with the breed. They are as a rule very biddable, and the best in the breed can make even novice trainers look good. My older dog will sit, down, roll over in spot a couple hundred yards away from me.

 

Also, I know from the photographs that are displayed on my website that Sam looks like he’s out of control, however Sam is a puppy with lots of energy, however a dog with energy is not a dog out of control, I ask you to reserve your judgement until I can find a way of showing you a short video clip of him with the rabbits, I’m sure you will then agree that he is not out of control and is quite the opposite, he is actually in control and shows he has energy when needed but it is controlled and he actually shows respect for the rabbits. (I am in the process of trying to upload this video to You-Tube so you can see what I actually mean and will post a link to it this evening, this is the first video I’ve uploaded so please bare with me!).

 

At this point in his life, he is a young puppy and this is all very new to him. Quite possibly when he gets older with a bit more confidence this will change.

 

Furthermore, any training that Sam receives will be done by me directly. In my opinion, a dog should be trained by its master, the relationship that is built between the dog and his master during training and the respect that is earned both ways during such time is lost when a dog is given to somebody else to be trained.

 

If you ever tried working sheep, you'd understand why it is best to get help from a very knowledgable person when starting a young dog on sheep. This doesn't mean you aren't involved in the training or that you're passing it off to someone else. It just means that you are getting professional help to learn a complex skill (much as a person would take lessons to learn an instrument). You send your children to school, right? This doesn't mean that you aren't a big part of their training.

 

I can understand the concern, however much of what we enjoyed as children is no longer experienced by our offspring due to the Political Correctness Brigade and its such a shame that my children are no longer allowed to play conkers in the school playground or climb trees (how much fun I remember this being), due to the small minority of accidents that occurred and schools concerned about prosecution so therefore ban these activities. A fine example is Sports Day, I enjoyed this as a kid, although I wasn’t the fastest at running, it was incredibly enjoyable, especially the egg and spoon race and the wheelbarrow race, however schools have now stopped this due to competition between children being considered as unfair! It was these kinds of activities that controlled obesity which has now escalated out of control!

 

No fun police here. I grew up on a farm playing all sorts of great games that would cause some folks to raise their eyebrow. But there were a few rules meant for ou safety that we were expectd to follow - stay away from the river without an adult, no playing with fire, stay off the equipment and don't harass the animals. Those rules were made for our safety, by folks that knew better than us. Children and puppies can find things that are actually quite dangerous to be great fun (like playing in old refridgerators)

 

This is indeed true with the topc in question, some of you have experienced problems with your dogs and are therefore advising me not to allow my dog with the rabbits. Although I appreciate your advise, I do not think it is fair to label me as a cruel person, as each individual situation and dog/owner is different.

 

True, but we wouldn't be advising against it unless it was a very common issue in the breed. Maybe you'll be in the 5% that it doesn't become an issue for, but chances are you'll be in the 95% that it will. I don't think you are being cruel, but I think you are setting yourself up for problems and issues later on in your pups life that could easily be avoided right now.

 

I do not intend on making this a regular activity for Sam or the rabbits, the main reason for my post in this thread was that this was Sams first introduction to other animals, and he seemed to have an inherent skill from his parents.

 

I'm glad to hear that it will not be a regular activity. You have no idea how often folks come to this board and say "wow, this is amazing, my BC is herding my (kids, cats, other dog, other animals) - isn't it great" then come back a few months later and say "oh no my dog is biting them, won't leave them alone, etc, what do I do? Well it's easiest just to prevent to issue in the first place.

[Jack & Co.]

He approached the rabbits really stealth like, just like a cat does when its after a bird before it pounces, and then he stopped still in his position, looked at both rabbits left and right, you could really see he was thinking about the situation, and then he darted between the two of them, and came back towards the rear of the right hand side rabbit, chased it towards the centre rabbit and then chased both of them back towards the hutch!

 

This one long sentence is what bothered me....the description of the dog stalking the rabbits and then the ensuing behavior described twice as "chasing". Poor bunnies.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Please note, we're not hammering on you because we're mean, we think it's fun to pester newcomers, or that we don't like you or misunderstand you.

 

I'm alarmed for other newcomers and lurkers who might be thinking, "Oo! I have rabbits! [or fill in the blank with some other small animal] I bet my dog would love to play this game also!"

 

And so you say, "But it's working fine for me!"

 

And we say, "This is not a good idea!"

 

And you say, "I think you are wrong, it's perfectly safe!"

 

And we say, picturing others who are "listening in" - "Honestly, we've seen this end badly many times!"

 

And you say, "I have oodles of experience, you don't know what you are talking about, it's perfectly fine based on the two times we've allowed our puppy to do this!"

 

And we say, "Really, we can't let this go. It may work just fine for you, but it's not a good idea."

 

And that's where I'm going to leave this. Please, anyone out there who might be thinking, "But it worked fine for this guy who can train his Border Collie puppy to do six commands" - it's really not a good idea. Any Border Collie worth its salt and not completely shut down by too much early training, will turn on to these bunnies at some point and then it will take a lot of unpleasantness to shut it down again.

[BorderCollieSam]

This one long sentence is what bothered me....the description of the dog stalking the rabbits and then the ensuing behavior described twice as "chasing". Poor bunnies.

 

Well do Border Collies not stalk sheep then?

 

Maybe i could have substituted 'Chase' for 'Drive' which would have sounded a little better, but as i say, wait until this evening and i shall show you what he did on video, maybe then you'll all let me live a little longer

 

Oh, and i'll try to shorten my sentences next time

[BorderCollieSam]

Please note, we're not hammering on you because we're mean, we think it's fun to pester newcomers, or that we don't like you or misunderstand you.

 

Oh thats ok then, i was beginning to think you were all Blood Hounds dressed in Border Collie clothing!

[BorderCollieSam]

I'm alarmed for other newcomers and lurkers who might be thinking, "Oo! I have rabbits! [or fill in the blank with some other small animal] I bet my dog would love to play this game also!"

 

And so you say, "But it's working fine for me!"

 

And we say, "This is not a good idea!"

 

And you say, "I think you are wrong, it's perfectly safe!"

 

And we say, picturing others who are "listening in" - "Honestly, we've seen this end badly many times!"

 

And you say, "I have oodles of experience, you don't know what you are talking about, it's perfectly fine based on the two times we've allowed our puppy to do this!"

 

And we say, "Really, we can't let this go. It may work just fine for you, but it's not a good idea."

 

And that's where I'm going to leave this. Please, anyone out there who might be thinking, "But it worked fine for this guy who can train his Border Collie puppy to do six commands" - it's really not a good idea. Any Border Collie worth its salt and not completely shut down by too much early training, will turn on to these bunnies at some point and then it will take a lot of unpleasantness to shut it down again.

 

You made me cry with laughter at that post, i'm sorry, but i CAN see where you are coming from, but i can also see the funny side to it as well.

 

Just for the record:

 

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME

WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN READING HAS BEEN PERFORMED WITHIN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT AND COULD CAUSE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES WHEN PEFORMED OUTSIDE OF THESE CONTROL MEASURES

[Laurae]

The point you don't seem to want to address at all is that the problem is not what your pup is doing now; it's that allowing this now will very likely lead to future behavior that is not as easy to control. It's also an activity that is not particularly mentally healthy for the dog. And no matter how much you want to compare it to a stockdog's behavior on sheep, it is not the same thing with rabbits. It has its roots in herding instinct, but the manifestation of that instinct—chasing rabbits—is very different for the dog than working stock is. Period, and you'd know this if you had actual experience working stock.

 

To be honest, it doesn't really matter to me what your video is going to show. He's a nine-week-old pup now—of course he's not doing any real damage. I'll reserve judgment until I see what your dog is doing a year from now...

[BorderCollieSam]

I'll reserve judgment until I see what your dog is doing a year from now...

 

By that time he will be working the chickens

 

Only kidding, i know exactly what you mean, however i'm sure with the correct guidance and my watchful eye, he will know how far he can push things.....

 

P.S. This has got me thinking, i was considering purchasing some land a couple of years ago and sitting on it until such time as i can get planning permission granted. This would provide me with the ideal opportunity to purchase some sheep and excercise my dog with real livestock.

[Sue R]

No need for sarcasm , i assume you've heard the expression that Sarcasm is the lowest form of witt?

 

As i have previously stated even the farmer i purchased my pup from in North Wales said it would be fine, and Farming/Border Collies/Herding have been in his family for many generations.

 

The farmer showed me a really old picture of Sams dads brother and also Sams dads Grandfather when i collected him.

I will apologize for being sarcastic as it was not necessary, even though it accurately summed up my feelings.

 

Many farmers in many locations would not care about a bit any dogs chasing and/or killing rabbits, which are considered a form of vermin by many (along with our North American woodchucks, another species that digs holes in fields).

 

I'll stand by my opinion and you stand by yours, and best wishes for a long and happy future with your young pup.

[BorderCollieSam]

I will apologize for being sarcastic as it was not necessary, even though it accurately summed up my feelings.

 

No need to apologise, was only pulling your leg

 

By the way, you've spelt Apologise wrong

[Laura L]

By the way, you've spelt Apologise wrong

 

Are you being sarcastic now? Here in the States it's apologize.

 

I hope that you will stick around and that you'll be able to tell us about when your dog is working sheep and that there was never a problem with the rabbits.

 

Laura

[BorderCollieSam]

Are you being sarcastic now? Here in the States it's apologize.

 

I hope that you will stick around and that you'll be able to tell us about when your dog is working sheep and that there was never a problem with the rabbits.

 

Laura

 

Yes, you did detect a hint of sarcasm

 

Will definetely be sticking around....

[BorderCollieSam]

OK, to enable you all to flame me more, i thought i would show you the video!

 

Here it is:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lulacCuM00

 

Note: How he doesn't touch the rabbits?

[Shetlander]

I don't think anyone's flamed you. I do think people have taken time out of their busy days to share their concerns and some went on to further explain those concerns when you objected. I also don't think anyone has said that your puppy has touched your rabbits. Yet. Thanks but I'm going to skip your video because despite what you appear to believe, it isn't going to prove anything about future behavior.

[JaderBug]

I hate to be negative but I also have a pet rabbit and you should never allow your dog to "work" your rabbits. Being pursued by a potential predator is extremely stressful for a rabbit and I believe you should never, ever allow you dog to harass your rabbits.

 

Sometimes we enjoy certain behaviors but have to realize that they are not something that we should allow.

 

I have to agree here... imagine your puppy performing this behavior as an adult. Is it still going to be cute then? Jade 'played' with the cat when she was a puppy, and I just thought it was the cutest thing ever- there isn't a day that goes by now that I don't regret letting her get away with it. It's not cute anymore, and so far I have been unsuccessful at getting her to stop obsessing over the cat. The cat may not mind, but it's an extremely annoying behavior and a bad habbit.

 

Please don't foster a behavior that you will later regret. It's a lot easier to nip a behavior early on than it is to change it later.

[BorderCollieSam]

I don't think anyone's flamed you. I do think people have taken time out of their busy days to share their concerns and some went on to further explain those concerns when you objected. I also don't think anyone has said that your puppy has touched your rabbits. Yet. Thanks but I'm going to skip your video because despite what you appear to believe, it isn't going to prove anything about future behavior.

 

I do appreciate peoples comments/advise and was only using a figure of speach when i mentioned 'flaming'.

 

You'll have to excuse my sense of humour

[BorderCollieSam]

I have to agree here... imagine your puppy performing this behavior as an adult. Is it still going to be cute then? Jade 'played' with the cat when she was a puppy, and I just thought it was the cutest thing ever- there isn't a day that goes by now that I don't regret letting her get away with it. It's not cute anymore, and so far I have been unsuccessful at getting her to stop obsessing over the cat. The cat may not mind, but it's an extremely annoying behavior and a bad habbit.

 

Please don't foster a behavior that you will later regret. It's a lot easier to nip a behavior early on than it is to change it later.

 

I really don't see what the big deal is.

 

I don't know whether the Border Collies over your side of the pond are different to the ones over our side of the pond, but as previously stated i've had Border Collies pretty much my entire life and never really had a problem with them.

 

You hear it so many times about this type of breed, all accross the internet in fact, that they need this, they need that, they are this, they are that, they don't make good this, they don't make good that, but honestly i've never had a problem with the breed and i love collies to bits, in my opinion you won't get a better companion dog than a collie or a more obedient dog than a collie.

 

Even at Sams young age, if he was to run after one of our cats, and i call him off, he would stop in his tracks and come back to me. Its happened with my two daughters, i love them to bits too, but Sam has liked to play a game or two with them and i've had to call him off where he's got too excited, and he knows that when i say no i mean no and if he goes beyond that then he's in trouble.

 

If he is like this now, then i can only see things improving once our freindship and bond gets stronger...........

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

When I was growing up we had chickens, turkeys, geese, ducks and rabbits. For food. Our dogs usually wanted to "play" with them when they were puppies too, but it was simply just not allowed. The dogs were there to keep predators away from our food not harass them. The dogs had to learn to leave them alone because one thing can lead to another and all of a sudden you have a dog who likes to eat chickens or rabbits.

It's not just border collies, it's all dogs.

[Ninso]

I don't know whether the Border Collies over your side of the pond are different to the ones over our side of the pond, but as previously stated i've had Border Collies pretty much my entire life and never really had a problem with them.

 

Not that it will make any difference to your opinion, but I just have to ask. You keep saying you've had border collies all your life and that you have so much experience in training dogs, yet on your website you note that you (meaning, I assume, your family) had a few dogs as a kid, but you personally haven't had a dog since moving out of your parents' house ten years ago. Forgive me, but 10 years is a long time to be dogless, especially if you've never had a dog as an adult. For me, living 7 years without a dog (and never having had one as an adult) it was like I was starting all over again when I got mine. Maybe I just don't have your knowledge or experience.

 

If he is like this now, then i can only see things improving once our freindship and bond gets stronger...........

 

I only wonder, though, because you keep saying how perfectly well behaved your 9 week old puppy is, and I don't doubt it to be true, but you do know that puppies turn into adolescents, right? And I think every person on this board will tell you that even the most well behaved puppies go a little bit haywire for awhile. Which means, when your puppy with a perfect recall hits 6 months or so, he may just decide to ignore that recall. I really hope that doesn't happen while he is "playing" with the rabbits. And I also hope it doesn't happen when he sees a wild rabbit, or squirrel, or other small animal across the road, and having been encouraged to chase them his entire life, decides to take off after it without a second thought about the car that is bearing down upon him.

[BorderCollieSam]

Not that it will make any difference to your opinion, but I just have to ask. You keep saying you've had border collies all your life and that you have so much experience in training dogs, yet on your website you note that you (meaning, I assume, your family) had a few dogs as a kid, but you personally haven't had a dog since moving out of your parents' house ten years ago. Forgive me, but 10 years is a long time to be dogless, especially if you've never had a dog as an adult. For me, living 7 years without a dog (and never having had one as an adult) it was like I was starting all over again when I got mine. Maybe I just don't have your knowledge or experience.

I only wonder, though, because you keep saying how perfectly well behaved your 9 week old puppy is, and I don't doubt it to be true, but you do know that puppies turn into adolescents, right? And I think every person on this board will tell you that even the most well behaved puppies go a little bit haywire for awhile. Which means, when your puppy with a perfect recall hits 6 months or so, he may just decide to ignore that recall. I really hope that doesn't happen while he is "playing" with the rabbits. And I also hope it doesn't happen when he sees a wild rabbit, or squirrel, or other small animal across the road, and having been encouraged to chase them his entire life, decides to take off after it without a second thought about the car that is bearing down upon him.

 

Hi, and thank you for your post.

 

Yes its me who hasn't had a dog in ten years, however i would just like to point out that dogs are a little different to, lets say for arguments sake a PC!

 

I could understand your logic if it was regarding a PC, i mean imagine being out of the PC race for 10 years, imagine using the Commodore Amiga of the late 80's/early 90's, and then all of a sudden purchasing a Windows driven Pentium run PC of today, what a shock that would be.

 

However, the Border Collie is indeed still a Border Collie, he hasn't evolved over the last 10 years into some superbreed, he is still a Border Collie.

 

The only difference is me. I am now a Man, and therefore have more intelligence (i hope ) and also other increased adult features such as a deeper voice and more dominance, all of which are positive improvements which will increase control over my dog and bring out better results.

 

I tell you the reason why i think people claim to have problems with these dogs. These dogs are intelligent, so much so that if they are not taught from day one who is boss, they will start to dominate their owner. They are also beautiful, but at the end of the day they are also a decendent from the wolf family. They require equal amounts of excercise, mental stimulation, love/affection, praise, reward, motivation, and most importantly decipline!

 

With regard to you questioning the 10 years i haven't owned a dog for, the main thing that i have noticed thats changed over the last 10 years is the attitude to dog training. I have only read one post on these boards/threads over the last few weeks that i completely agree with. I can't remember the exact specifics, however i recall vaguely somebody experiencing a problem with their dog biting their partner and drawing blood i think. Most members were saying that they need to be taken to a behaviour therapist, others were offering other reasons why he could be acting like it, and suggesting other ways to improve his behaviour, all of these suggestions were exactly the same as time out for a child! Only one person actually said they would have grabbed hold of that dog and gave him a smack on the backside and made him realise that he is not to act that way.

 

This is what i would have done. I would have gave him a good smack on the back side, or wrestled him to the ground and let him know that i was the boss, then afterwards i would have put him in another room by himself to calm down and think over what he had just done.

 

You don't see parent dogs letting their puppies get away with biting or not acting appropriately, they soon snap back and teach them whats allowed and whats not!

 

I don't know why people are changing their attitudes towards dicipline with dogs, don't get me wrong i'm an animal love through and through and would never let anybody hurt my dog, but my dog must learn who is boss and he must have boundaries that he knows he must not go beyond.

 

Imagine a football match without any referee, without any lines man, without any rules, people would be doing all kinds of fowl play to get to the ball, which would make the game unenjoyable.

 

I rest my case.....

[BorderCollieSam]

Maybe I just don't have your knowledge or experience.

 

It takes time

[Laurae]

Hi, and thank you for your post.

 

Yes its me who hasn't had a dog in ten years, however i would just like to point out that dogs are a little different to, lets say for arguments sake a PC!

 

I could understand your logic if it was regarding a PC, i mean imagine being out of the PC race for 10 years, imagine using the Commodore Amiga of the late 80's/early 90's, and then all of a sudden purchasing a Windows driven Pentium run PC of today, what a shock that would be.

 

However, the Border Collie is indeed still a Border Collie, he hasn't evolved over the last 10 years into some superbreed, he is still a Border Collie.

 

The only difference is me. I am now a Man, and therefore have more intelligence (i hope ) and also other increased adult features such as a deeper voice and more dominance, all of which are positive improvements which will increase control over my dog and bring out better results.

 

I tell you the reason why i think people claim to have problems with these dogs. These dogs are intelligent, so much so that if they are not taught from day one who is boss, they will start to dominate their owner. They are also beautiful, but at the end of the day they are also a decendent from the wolf family. They require equal amounts of excercise, mental stimulation, love/affection, praise, reward, motivation, and most importantly decipline!

 

With regard to you questioning the 10 years i haven't owned a dog for, the main thing that i have noticed thats changed over the last 10 years is the attitude to dog training. I have only read one post on these boards/threads over the last few weeks that i completely agree with. I can't remember the exact specifics, however i recall vaguely somebody experiencing a problem with their dog biting their partner and drawing blood i think. Most members were saying that they need to be taken to a behaviour therapist, others were offering other reasons why he could be acting like it, and suggesting other ways to improve his behaviour, all of these suggestions were exactly the same as time out for a child! Only one person actually said they would have grabbed hold of that dog and gave him a smack on the backside and made him realise that he is not to act that way.

 

This is what i would have done. I would have gave him a good smack on the back side, or wrestled him to the ground and let him know that i was the boss, then afterwards i would have put him in another room by himself to calm down and think over what he had just done.

 

You don't see parent dogs letting their puppies get away with biting or not acting appropriately, they soon snap back and teach them whats allowed and whats not!

 

I don't know why people are changing their attitudes towards dicipline with dogs, don't get me wrong i'm an animal love through and through and would never let anybody hurt my dog, but my dog must learn who is boss and he must have boundaries that he knows he must not go beyond.

 

Imagine a football match without any referee, without any lines man, without any rules, people would be doing all kinds of fowl play to get to the ball, which would make the game unenjoyable.

 

I rest my case.....

 

That's the most entertaining post I've read in a long time!

I guess you've got it all figured out. I really hope you do stay on the boards and I look forward to your posts in a year or two.

[Smokjbc]

Let's sum up...

 

BCS- My puppy likes to chase rabbits.

 

Answer: Dogs eat rabbits (not American Border Collies, but ALL DOGS! Had a small sheltie that ate rabbits and kangaroo rats...because...she...was...a dog.)

 

BCS: No big deal, my puppy won't be a typical dog.

 

Answer: No, really- dogs eat rabbits. Plus, it creates frustration in the dog.

 

BCS (holding hands to ears)- LA LA LA LA I can't hear you.

 

Answer- Really, it's not cool to let a puppy harrass rabbits

 

BCS- My dog is special, it won't eat rabbits.

 

.....Yes, it will. Or kill one accidently. We had a client with a bunch of pet rabbits and two dogs. They grew up fine, but when her dogs were about a year old, they systematically killed every rabbit in her house. This was a lady that cared so much for the bunnies, she had each one (about 5 IIRC) privately cremated. Kudos for her for not getting rid of the dogs, she realized she had made a mistake since they had "grown up" together and did not blame the dogs for being themselves. But a terrible lesson to learn that everyone here is trying to spare you!