BorderCollieSam Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 This will probably fall on deaf ears but I have to say something.I doubt it. The 'getting back on a bike' thing doesn't really apply here. If you are getting back on a bike after a long time, you will still probably be rusty and you may not be able to ride one-handed or no-handed like you may have previously been able to. You can't get better at something that you're not practicing. This isn't just a BC thing, it goes for ANY dog. Dogs will kill animals they find... squirrels, possums, raccoons, rabbits, anything they can find. My dogs at home would never intentionally hurt a cat or anything else (pig, sheep, whatever) but they've certainly been known to kill their fair share of possums. That's alright. We don't want them on our farm, so we would rather them kill vermin like that. I don't know your story so I can't say definitively, but maybe none of your collies that you have owned have ever had the opportunity to kill something like that, therefore maybe you think it can't be done. Believe us, it can and it does. A dog's breeding should have nothing to do with taking necessary and basic precautions to care for your smaller, more vulnerable animals. The discussions in this thread is more for the welfare of your rabbits than anything- not really about breeding. ETA: Training/raising children is NOT the same as training dogs. Oh give me a break please! Its a little easier to remember how to say sit, down, paw, beg and stat, than it is to ride no handed on a bike after you haven't done it for 10 years, so i don't really see how you think you are right and i am wrong about this. And if you are talking about from a physcological/mental point of view, as i've allready said (although it may have fallen on deaf ears ) i have matured, my voice has got deeper, i am now a man, so therefore to a dog i'm going to be more dominant than i was when younger. So, with the above points in mind, i still remain unconvinced that my 10 years without a dog is going to someway reduce my dog training skills..... And as for dogs killing, wild dogs i would agree, however all my dogs have been pets and i've never had a problem with them.... And as for this thread not being about breeding, breeding is an essential topic of conversation in this thread as we are trying to ascertain the reason why so many people seem to have had problems with their collies killing when a well bred dog should have had the bite/kill instinct removed and the chasing/preying instinct left in tact, so i think breeding is a serious topic within this thread. And regaring children being different to dogs - no, really? Surely you must have been around babies and used all different types of voice pitch depending on how you want the child to behave? For example, if you are trying to teach the baby to do something and it does it, you will praise and say 'Well done baby'! (in a high pitch voice) Whereas, if the baby is crawling towards something that it could hurt itself with, you will warn it with a lower pitch voice and drag the words out slowly... Surely you MUST agree on the above? (Hello) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Grippers Rabbit Pie 3 young rabbits 1 medium onion 5 rashers of un smoked bacon 2 cloves of garlic fresh herbs (rough chop parsley, thyme, chives, to taste) small glass of dry sherry frozen short crust pastry (unless you can make your own better)! seasoning 1/2 pint double cream Clean and skin bunnies as usual,(you can reserve kidneys as garnish). Place in tray, whole and cover with bacon. Cook in moderate oven for about 15 mins. Meanwhile sweat sliced onions and crushed garlic in a pan until soft. Add sherry and reduce. When rabbits cooked, tear off as much meat as possible and add to pan with the bacon, choopped.Throw in herbs, add a little water if neccesary and cream. Roll out defrosted pastry about 1/4 inch thick and eggwash. Place rabbit mix in suitable pie dish and top with pastry. Cook in moderate oven until pastry golden. Pan fry kidneys in a little butter and serve as garnish. Serves four generously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Here you go. You'll need this: BEER - BRAISED RABBIT 1 cut up fryer 2 tbsp. cooking oil 3 cut up potatoes 4 cut carrots 1 thin sliced onion 1 c. beer 1/4 c. chili sauce 1 tbsp. brown sugar 1 clove minced garlic 1/3 c. cold water 3 tbsp. flour 1/2 tsp. salt Brown meat in hot oil; drain. In crockery cooker place potatoes, carrots and onion; put meat on top. Combine chili sauce, beer, brown sugar and garlic. Pour over meat. Cover, cook on high for 4 to 5 hours. Remove meat, drain vegetables, reserve liquid. Measure liquid; add beer or water if needed to measure 1 1/2 cups. In saucepan blend cold water into flour, stir in reserved liquid (salt). Cook until thickened. Place meat and vegetables on a platter, garnish with parsley, pass the gravy. Serves 4. These rabbits would probably serve a little more than 4 actually, they are *****(company name removed) Giants. The company my wife works at had an animal farm which they decided to close due to animal protestors. These rabbits were genetically modified to grow a lot bigger than your normal run of the mill rabbits due to the company removing serum from the rabbits and therefore needing bigger rabbits to avoid killing too many rabbits, for example they can remove the serum from one rabbit and obviously it dies but it would have taken 3 rabbits lives of the normal run of the mill. Actually, i haven't and would never eat rabbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 These rabbits would probably serve a little more than 4 actually, they are *****(company name removed) Giants ... Actually, i haven't and would never eat rabbit. In that case, HERE is a website that might be helpful for you. I am sure you could adjust the number of rabbits accordingly since yours are so large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 First you post a video promoting dangerous behavior as "cute".. then you become offended when experienced and caring people observe and politely disagree.... then you become a dog expert -despite 10 years without them, and before that only limited - who has no need of the normal rules of training, because your dogs are not the same species as the others we have dealt with ..... then you become smarter than anyone else on this board, with better behaved dogs, and you learned all that from producing raising 2 human children who are both still under the age of 10...... Why sir, do you bother with us? An expert like you should be on television! In fact you could probably get 2 contracts - one for dog training, and the other for raising children. I humbly await. Until then, I like my rabbit roasted with herbs. 1. Please point me towards dangerous bahaviour? By your reasoning, you would have every them park (Disney Land) in America closed down due to dangerous behaviour right? As this is surely dangerous behaviour, i mean fancy letting young children (of all things) on rollercoaster and other rides several hundred feet up in the sky! The reason people let children on these rides is because of control measures in place, i.e., the equipment is inspected at regular intervals etc., thereby reducing the risk involved. Well, i have control measures in place with my dog. He knows not to go beyond a certain point with me, and if he were to he would be corrected and not allowed with the rabbits ever again. Everything you do in life entails risk, however you must evaluate the risk involved and act accordingly, which is what i do, its all about Risk Assessment. 2. I become offended? I must have missed something here, please point me to the point of being offended. Have i said anything nasty to anybody here? If i have i apologise, however i think not, and certainly haven't been offended. 3/4. I must admit, i actually liked these ones, i thought they were verrrrrry good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 And as for this thread not being about breeding, breeding is an essential topic of conversation in this thread as we are trying to ascertain the reason why so many people seem to have had problems with their collies killing when a well bred dog should have had the bite/kill instinct removed and the chasing/preying instinct left in tact, so i think breeding is a serious topic within this thread. Regarding the puppy and the rabbits, I really don't care, to me it's a cute as watching the Mist movie when Mist learned to herd the ducks on her own, Gee, wonder why people think it's not a bad thing... As far as the statement above, I've heard it before and wonder, had the bite/kill instincts been removed via breeding or just not displayed due to proper training? Proper breeder would make it easier to train the dog to not bite/kill. I often wonder if those so called bred to not bite/kill dogs would starve to death left to their own devices, guess you would know if it was bred out or trained out that way. I've heard of guardian dogs starving vs. killing their charges, but then others that have killed when no food was available. The only opinion I have on the matter is that I had a dog that would not bite and he was pretty much useless when it came to handling the rams and cattle (BTW, he was not trained to not bite, he just wouldn't, he would mouth noses and bridges, but he never really bit). Yeah he could move them when they wanted to move until they figured out that he didn't have anything behind his demands and just ran him off, he could not keep sheep off me at feeding time for the life of him. He was gutsy, he would come back and try again, eventually he would annoy them into moving off just by staying in their faces but it was hardly efficient and eventually the dog was going to get hurt. I'm not saying I want a dog that bites anything anytime, I want them to bite if they have to, which would be to defend their position. So I personally really don't have much use for a dog that has no bite, I also have no use for a dog that chases, IMO chasing is not herding, chasing is allowing the stock to dictate the path and direction, herding is having the dog dictate the path and direction. To me a dog that is bred to chase or selected for it's desire to chase would be difficult to teach to kick out releasing pressure to control or stop the stock. My guess is that there is a balance somewhere in the mix between training and breeding, without good training the breeding can look faulty without good breeding the training can appear faulty. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 As to the "gripping" and biting behaviour being bred out, well, MAYBE with pet bred ones, but working border collies are sometimes NEEDED to grip. Working stuborn cattle or ornery rams for an example. If the dog can not get respect from these ornery animals, he will never be able to convince them to go where he wants them to. And yes, un-neccesary gripping is trained out of them. A good trainer with a good dog can do this though. You know, wolves and other wild carnivores will bring prey home to their pups/cubs after they begin to get teeth. The pups/cubs will usually just play with them. Eventually the "kill" instinct kicks in. One day prey is a interresting thing to play with, the next day-LUNCH! The thing I think most people are trying to get across to you is that, while at this point, Sam may very well be just playing, and not harming the rabbits. He is still just a baby. But one day, he will wake up, and it will no longer be play. Unfortunately, YOU may not realize it till one of the rabbits are hanging limp from his jaws. And with dogs in general, and Border Collies in particular, once behaviours are learned it is a very difficult, if not impossible feat to un-learn them. Right now, while the pup is young, he can be taught to let the rabbits be. He will grow up and be fine in the yard with the rabbits. Rabbits are not exactly heardable animals anyway. They tend to scatter like shotgun pellets! What ever happens, hope it all works out. Since you feel he is so keen on herding, maybe when he is around 10mos you could take him to a farm and see how he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 KEEPING YOUR RABBIT SAFE It's a Dangerous World if You're a Rabbit. "Predators are one of the greatest dangers to your pet. All carnivores dogs, cats, hawks, owls and weasels see your beloved bunny as a potential meal. A determined predator will break through wire netting to get at its prey. The slightest indication of a predator is sufficient to send your Rabbit, due to their nervous disposition, careening around its hutch. Such a panicked response could lead to your Rabbit possibly breaking its own back, injuring itself against the wire netting, fracturing limbs or even dying from a heart attack." (sidenote: why do I feel like I should be putting a ton of information about vaccinations in this post? LOL!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (sidenote: why do I feel like I should be putting a ton of information about vaccinations in this post? LOL!) OK, now THAT made me laugh out loud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 OK, now THAT made me laugh out loud! Sorry but this has lost me totally now - vaccinations??? I have no idea what you are on about? Please explain.... Sam has his second set of vaccinations on Saturday morning, he is not allowed out until 1 week later...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Sorry but this has lost me totally now - vaccinations??? I have no idea what you are on about? Please explain.... It's an inside joke. Did you read the more colorful parts of that post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Regarding the puppy and the rabbits, I really don't care, to me it's a cute as watching the Mist movie when Mist learned to herd the ducks on her own, Gee, wonder why people think it's not a bad thing... As far as the statement above, I've heard it before and wonder, had the bite/kill instincts been removed via breeding or just not displayed due to proper training? Proper breeder would make it easier to train the dog to not bite/kill. I often wonder if those so called bred to not bite/kill dogs would starve to death left to their own devices, guess you would know if it was bred out or trained out that way. I've heard of guardian dogs starving vs. killing their charges, but then others that have killed when no food was available. The only opinion I have on the matter is that I had a dog that would not bite and he was pretty much useless when it came to handling the rams and cattle (BTW, he was not trained to not bite, he just wouldn't, he would mouth noses and bridges, but he never really bit). Yeah he could move them when they wanted to move until they figured out that he didn't have anything behind his demands and just ran him off, he could not keep sheep off me at feeding time for the life of him. He was gutsy, he would come back and try again, eventually he would annoy them into moving off just by staying in their faces but it was hardly efficient and eventually the dog was going to get hurt. I'm not saying I want a dog that bites anything anytime, I want them to bite if they have to, which would be to defend their position. So I personally really don't have much use for a dog that has no bite, I also have no use for a dog that chases, IMO chasing is not herding, chasing is allowing the stock to dictate the path and direction, herding is having the dog dictate the path and direction. To me a dog that is bred to chase or selected for it's desire to chase would be difficult to teach to kick out releasing pressure to control or stop the stock. My guess is that there is a balance somewhere in the mix between training and breeding, without good training the breeding can look faulty without good breeding the training can appear faulty. Deb What a fantastic post. This is the type of post that really gets you thinking. For example, my pet rabbits wouldn't survive if they were let loose in the wild, just like a dog, most of its predatory instinct has been bred out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 It's an inside joke. Did you read the more colorful parts of that post? Vaccinating against predators? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Vaccinating against predators? Keeping your rabbits safe from predators ... namely ... your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Your dog would actually do just fine out on his own. For many generations, working farm dogs have supplemented their diets by "crittering" both on the hillside and, more usefully, in the master's barns. My young Maremma (livestock guardian dog, truly bred for a minimum of prey drive, and won't even touch a lamb after it's died, in her care. Yet she was abandoned before we rescued her, and survived for six months on small animals she caught. She still enjoys bringing home mice, squirrels and rabbits from our woods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaporflowers Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (sidenote: why do I feel like I should be putting a ton of information about vaccinations in this post? LOL!) HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I did laugh out loud at that, I'll admit. BCSam, that has nothing to do with you, has to do with another poster. I'm going to echo what someone else said. You were quoted as saying this is your first working-bred border collie. So really, you haven't had this breed before. Maybe you should take a step back, take a deep breath, stop being defensive, and listen to advice from the numerous trainers, breeders, handlers, owners... people with VAST amounts of experience. To have so many knowledgeable people at your disposal is a rare treat. Don't assume that you know everything there is to know. Not every training/discipling/raising method will apply to every dog. BE OPEN to what we're saying here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 For example, my pet rabbits wouldn't survive if they were let loose in the wild, just like a dog, most of its predatory instinct has been bred out.... The rescue I volunteer for takes plenty of dogs in from local reserves that have been either feral or on their own for up to a year or so, somehow they survived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Dear BCSam: This whole thread started out with your telling us that your puppy was “playing” with your rabbits. I viewed your video, and I do not see a puppy that is exhibiting any play-type behavior, just prey drive behavior, which is totally different. And even you said in a post: “however when the rabbits are out, i don't see any reason why he can't help to put them away.....” So now you are talking about a job…not playing. You seemed to feel that the rabbits were not stressed and part of the play (I checked the video a few times and I’m sorry, but that black rabbit did not appear to be enjoying the “play” or having any fun at all.) EVEN YOU admit this when you say, “over time the rabbits will gradually become much more relaxed around the dog, they may never trust him 100% but they will realise that he is not the predator that they once thought he was....” So you ARE acknowledging that the rabbits are viewing this not as play, but as predatory behavior. You talk about training techniques and how “modern” techniques do not teach the dog who is in charge…and you liken it to “time outs” for children: “Most members were saying that they need to be taken to a behaviour therapist, others were offering other reasons why he could be acting like it, and suggesting other ways to improve his behaviour, all of these suggestions were exactly the same as time out for a child!” Yet in another post you say: “I would have gave him a good smack on the back side, or wrestled him to the ground and let him know that i was the boss, then afterwards i would have put him in another room by himself to calm down and think over what he had just done.” Sorry, but by putting the dog in another room to calm down and think it over (which, I’m sorry, but I don’t believe they do) you are essentially giving the dog what you described earlier in children as a “time out.” You are quoted as saying:“Well, i have control measures in place with my dog. He knows not to go beyond a certain point with me,” This only proves to me your inexperience in training. NO ONE has complete control over their animal. You cannot have complete control over a living creature that can think on its own. And you are a fool if you believe you do. And lastly, you talk about dog training and children training, and comparing the two. “and therefore have experience in motivating and training my children, which is another skill which I may be able to implement into my dog training program.” My dear, I suggest you wait until your children are fully grown before you reach any conclusions about motivating and training children. You have not yet even begun to walk down that path and hone those “skills”, and you will find your opinions will change drastically (especially in the teenage years.) I really think you started this thread because you saw your puppy exhibit a behavior that you thought showed that he had great herding potential. You have said numerous times (very proudly, I might add) that he is from working stock and that you’d like to have sheep. I think you were a bit dismayed with the reaction from the board…not quite what you expected. BUT…..you admittedly have no herding background – the people on this board do. SO USE YOUR BRAIN AND LISTEN TO WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. I think it's time for you to say to yourself, "Well, you know, these people DO have more experience than me...and I sure don't want to ruin this great puppy's herding potential...so maybe I should take their advice." End of mom’s lecture #99999999….. And I wish you the best of luck. He IS an adorable puppy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oh my stars! I would hope that the OP has gotten the point by now. If not, it apears to be a moot point to keep on about it. My dogs chase, yes chase not herd, work or anything in between much less even remotly close to it, but they do chase rabbits on a regular basis. They know how to work stock, but rabbits are for chasing. Just ask any well bred BC and they will tell you! They also chase the neibhors feral cats, which I encourage, there Sam maybe that little bit will get you off the hook. Cats and rabbits are not stock, and any well bred BC worth his kibble knows the difference. Stock dogs work stock, they chase rabbits. At least those that have the inclination to. Rabbits move differently than stock, thus influencing and instigating a different reaction/response from the dog. What it looks like physically, IE crouching, circling, driving etc. is not what is going on in their mind. They move the way they do because thats how they were bred to move. That is why it "looks" like herdng behavior. Sam, if you have hopes of one day working with your dog on stock, I dont care if you allow him to chase your rabbits, they are yours and you can treat them as inhumanly as you please. You have to sleep with the burden when they die of how or why that happenes. (and explain it to your children) However, if you do ever plan to work your dog on stock, I would hope that you allow him to grow up knowing the difference. For me what you are allowing, isnt a rabbit issue, more over the precidence you are setting for the young dog. Ya want something cool to video and watch? Let that pup get up about 10 months and take him to sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcburniefarm Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Excellent link to the "herding/prey drive" talk! Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 OK people, i'll come clean with you all now......... I hold my hands up, i started this thread initially because i was so excited when i noticed that Sam had prey drive. I was so excited and given the fact that Sam didn’t hurt the rabbits I didn’t really consider the possibility that the rabbits could be frightened of Sam, they were just running around and it looked like a harmless game of fun. And also Sam was getting some exercise and also mental stimulation which I thought would be good for him also. As i'm not allowed to take him out until next week as he doesn't have his second set of vaccinations until tommorrow morning, and i have to wait 1 week after that before he can go out. Then, when everybody started posting back negative comments, I thought ‘oh dear, what have I started here, I know what, i’ll fight this to the end!’. Maybe I will win ……. but not a chance……. As i've said previously, i've owned many border collies in my past but NEVER were they farm bred and NEVER were they around animals like rabbits. They were around cats, but they didn’t really bother with the cats, had the odd sniff and that was pretty much it. Therefore, i’ve never really witnessed prey drive in the past apart from the odd nip on the back of the ankles from a female Border Collie I owned back in my teens. She was a lovely looking dog and I used to send her out about ¼ mile away in a field, call her back, and she would ‘down’ whenever told, she would be running towards me and then all of a sudden ‘down’ and then she would start walking towards me slowly with her head/shoulders lowered and tail between her legs, which looked like she was working sheep, it looked so pretty. I really did love spending time with my last Border Collie ‘Tara’ and loved training her, the reward of seeing her being able to do something that you’ve taught her to do was just so overwhelming. I spent most of my teenage years with ‘Tara’ whilst my mates were all out drinking and clubbing, I was with my dog! Initially, this time around, I wasn't actually looking and didn’t even consider a farm bred collie, i purchased a farm bred collie primarily because of the cost. Although i agree that cost shouldn't be a motive for purchase, it IS a major issue when you are looking for a dog and see they are being sold by household families with the intention of making lots of money from £250.00-£450.00 per pup! I could not justify that type of money on a pup when to me, these dogs, although they would make great pets like the dog I had in my teens, and would still be perfect to train, in my opinion they are a watered down version of the prey driven working dog that you see working sheep on sheep dog trials. However, i then had the opportunity of purchasing a beautiful Border Collie puppy, from both working parents, from a proper farmer in North Wales, with both parents working sheep and cows and who were both trained both on the whistle and voice, I could also meet both his parents, and was also invited into the farmers house for a cup of tea and a hot x bun, i think he lived on his own, I was shown really old photographs (whilst we were drinking tea) of Sams great grand-dad and also Sams dads brother (the brother went to work on another farm in Wales) and to make things even better there was a high possibility that Sam would inherit the same level of intelligence that his parents have and also have the same prey drive, and also the farmer only wanted £100.00 per pup! Both Sams parents were really active and muscly dogs, Sams mum darted up this hill alongside my car on the way out of the farm and then ran all the way back down the hill towards my car and tried to stop my car in front of it barking to try and stop me driving, i don't know if she knew i had her pup in the car or not. So, to have the offer of a proper working Border Collie for £100.00 to me I could not resist. So, as you can see from the above, when I witnessed first hand that my puppy has prey drive, I was so proud and I just don’t want him to loose it! However, the problem I have is I don’t live on a farm, I live in the country with lots of open fields around me within 2 minutes walking distance, so I can teach him agility and already know of a place that has some old car tyres that I’m going to collect this weekend, and teach him to jump through, however I don’t want him to loose his prey drive and that’s why I ‘was’ going to let him work the rabbits until I received the reports in this thread. (he hasn’t been with the rabbits since Saturday). Somebody mentioned me leaving him until around 10 months and then taking him to a farm to work sheep, I don’t know whether they allow that type of thing in this country….. I’m on really good terms with the farmer I purchased Sam from as he keeps in touch weekly with me by text. But he lives in Wales and I live in the heart of Kent, which is about 3.5-4 hrs drive away….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 So, as you can see from the above, when I witnessed first hand that my puppy has prey drive, I was so proud and I just don’t want him to loose it! However, the problem I have is I don’t live on a farm, I live in the country with lots of open fields around me within 2 minutes walking distance, so I can teach him agility and already know of a place that has some old car tyres that I’m going to collect this weekend, and teach him to jump through, however I don’t want him to loose his prey drive and that’s why I ‘was’ going to let him work the rabbits until I received the reports in this thread. (he hasn’t been with the rabbits since Saturday). Somebody mentioned me leaving him until around 10 months and then taking him to a farm to work sheep, I don’t know whether they allow that type of thing in this country….. I’m on really good terms with the farmer I purchased Sam from as he keeps in touch weekly with me by text. But he lives in Wales and I live in the heart of Kent, which is about 3.5-4 hrs drive away….. I'm sorry, I know you're going to feel like you're being lectured at every turn. I just wanted to caution you about letting your puppy jump too much/too high at such a young age. You mention old tires, so I'm not sure exactly what you intend to do with them, but for his long term health, you shouldn't let a puppy jump much until much later. Normal puppy jumping around can't be helped for the most part, but agility type jumping shouldn't be done at his age. Otherwise, have fun with him! For now, train him, love him, build a great relationship with him. He doesn't NEED to be taught agility (or even to work sheep) for him to grow up into a great dog for you and your family. As for working sheep, I agree with waiting until he's older (I don't know if I'd wait until 10 months to expose him to sheep, but he won't be ready for much training until around then) and then finding a place where you can take lessons. I'd VERY surprised if that wasn't allowed in your country. Can you talk to the breeder about recommending anyone a bit closer to you? Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 BCS wrote: Somebody mentioned me leaving him until around 10 months and then taking him to a farm to work sheep, I don’t know whether they allow that type of thing in this country….. Just to be sure everyone is singing off the same sheet of music: the advice people are giving is to find a farmer experienced in training sheep dogs and to pay him to help you train your dog. People are not advising that you choose a farm at random that has nice looking sheep on it and letting loose your dog on those sheep without the farmer's permission. They don't allow that type of thing on this country, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 OK people, i'll come clean with you all now......... What a nice suprise to see for my frist post in the morning. I don't know if you're still pulling our collective leggs again, as I have had the feeling you've really enjoyed the debating up till now. But I'm going to assume that your are being upfront now and I for one am thrilled that all the information actually worked and we get the pleasure of seeing the fruits of our labor! Good on you BCSam, I'd be talking to your breeder, if he can't help you I would think he'd know of someone a bit closer. BTW, I don't see anything that can take away sam's instincts or drive barring some unforseen huge mishap, like getting rammed by a huge ram repeatedly, or kicked by a cow really young. You can't take it away, but you want to nurture it just right, like keeping him from workingchasing your buns. Ask the breeder when his mates turned on (which sounds like Sam has already) and when the farmer starts some of his own out of this line. Then work it out, and make the drive to have him maybe start Sam the first time. He knows his line, he'll have ideas of what the dogs is like, and you'll get to see him Mum, Dad and other relatives working. nothing better! Plus I don't konw of any decent breeder that wouldn't want to see his own pup when ready to work. At least that's the way my friends who breed are. Good luck BCSam....hope you learned you don't have to save face for this long and you can still learn no matter what your age! BTW....Paula is right, unnatural jumping above what Sam does just playing arund before his bones are fully formed can cause harm. I try to wait as long as I can before any huge jumps. But what he does on his own is perfectly fine, unless he's choosing to jump off ledges or really high things. For a rule of thumb that I go by, would be not higher than he is tall. I think running on hard pavement like jogging with an owner can cause the same type of issues too. And if you want to debate that, go somewhere else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Hey BCS! Just so you know, there are many people on this board that drive long distances to take their dogs for herding lessons. I myself will be making a 2 hour one way trip every 4 to 6 weeks for lessons. We have our first lesson on the 21st! I am very excited to see Daisy on sheep. She hasn't seen any sheep since she was a pup - as she is from a farm too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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