My BC attacked me........need help fast

[Beth G]

You know you're dog better than anyone else. So go with your gut instinct. If you don't think it was play- it probably wasn't. It's hard for us to know without seeing it.

 

My dogs test me often at this age to. Getting rough, trying to put teeth on me and overall just being cheeky. I nip it in the bud. However, even though it is normal at this age, it doesn't mean you have to stand for it. And you shouldn't. You definately need to put your foot down.

 

BUT... first I would do as the others have suggested. Sounds like your dog could be in pain. Start at the top literally. Go to the vet. Explain what happened. Ask him to do a thorough exam starting at the head, jaw, teeth neck area. All the way down to the tail area. I would have them do bloodwork too. Particularly the thyroid.

 

If that all turns out normal I would seriously consult a trainer. Because if it isn't a health/physical problem it definately sounds like dominant behaviour. And either way, you can't have your dog shredding your clothes- for any reason.

 

A good trainer can help you out with those behaviours. Hopefully you can get it sorted out rather quickly. I wish you the best of luck. Definatley let us know how it all goes. We're all on your side even if our advice sounds a bit blunt, or harsh.

[Alicia]

Originally posted by FlyByNight:

quote:

---

I put my dogs down "scruff of the neck on side" quite often.

I just wanted to chime in that this is often a very dangerous thing to do to a dog, and frequently ends up in a bite. It is a complete misinterpretation of wolf behavior, and is all the riskier in an already aggressive animal.

 

I would strongly caution against trying this with your dog, BC-Owner.

Well, I disagree. My dog's have been put down in this manner since they day they were brought home. And, because of it, I've never had any aggression or defiance issues from any of them. Wolves, Coyotes and even domestic dogs bite their young as well as those below them and.. living at a Doggie Day Care, I've seen EVERYDAY dogs put down in this fashion repeatedly throughout the day, VERY VERY VERY rarely inducing an argument, but that is VERY rare, between two dominant dogs. So, IMHO, it is not a misunderstood behavior. Dog's, wolves and coyotes will repeatedly assert their dominance in this fashion even when there is not initation of the need to assert it.

[sandra s.]

Alicia, as far as I know the dominant wolf doesn't physically push the other one down, but keeps bullying and threatening him until the other one lies down voluntarily in a submissive gesture.

 

That said, when a dog does come after me I also put them on their backs...but there's so much other, more subtle communication (and confidence issues) going on at the same time that it's hard to recommend "do the same as I do".

 

I second what everyone else said about not backing down no matter what. Even soft little Kessie, who'd normally rather eat herself than challenge me openly, will come after me when she senses me backing away from her. (So why do I back away? Because she's sometimes so incredibly dirty and smelly and wet that I just can't help trying not to make contact with her )

[Maralynn]

If you have a truly dominent dog, physically rolling the dog is very dangerous - to you. Especially if you are a bit scared of your dog. Remember, if you loose your dog wins, and that will just make the situation worse. That's why I would never reccomend it.

 

If your dog isn't truly dominent, there is much more to be gained by being a firm, fair, consistent leader. But you have to do it in terms your dog understands (ie NILIF).

 

I like the way Sandra put it -

 

That said, when a dog does come after me I also put them on their backs...but there's so much other, more subtle communication (and confidence issues) going on at the same time that it's hard to recommend "do the same as I do".

[PSmitty]

Unless it's truly a dog fight, I've never seen a dog put another dog down by the scruff of his neck. I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, but more likely, as someone mentioned, it's usually the submissive dog going down/rolling over on it's own, to appease the other dog.

 

To each his own, I guess, but I would never recommend alpha rolling or scruffing a dog that you think is aggressive. It will only fuel the aggression, possibly resulting in a real bite. If the dog isn't aggressive, but just playful or "out of control" and you scruff it, or roll it, this only teaches your dog to be scared of you, and I personally don't want that kind of relationship with my dogs. Respect, yes? Fear, no.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with those who note that in the dog world one does not grab the other by the scruff and roll it over. The submissive dog *offers* the roll, rather than being forced into it by the more dominant animal. FWIW, I have a dog who's a bit fear aggressive, especially in situations where someone is grabbing for his collar, and I can assure you I would NEVER scruff or attempt to roll that dog. I probably could do it, but I would definitely be risking a potentially severe bite, not to mention only reinforcing the fear of someone grabbing at his neck.... So, if it works for you fine, but I don't think it's something that should be recommended for others, especially in situations where you don't know the dog or the capabilities of the owner.

 

J.

[Lunar]

I've done a roll on a truly aggressive dog. I highly recommend no one EVER try it. Now if the dog is just being idiotic and I'm not afraid of getting bit I might do it (like with Oreo or Zoe, if they got way too rowdy for some reason) but if a dog is truly being aggressive and trying to get a piece of you it doesn't solve the problem and will put you in danger. My 2 cents, from someone who has been there, done that, barely escaped.

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by AK dog doc:

Just a general FYI on the thyroid thing, since someone brought it up...

 

In dogs it is nearly always HYPOthyroid, in cats almost always HYPERthyroid. Hypothyroidism CAN cause weird agressions and strange behavioral anomalies, but it's quite unusual to find hypothyrodism in dogs this young, and generally when you do find it in juveniles they're obviously physically abnormal, since abnormal thyroid function in young, growing animals leads to improper development on a physical level.

 

Now we return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

That's a great point and the main reason why my vet was very sure my dog was not hypothyroid as he had no other signs and was in perfect physical shape, incredible shiny coat, good weight and muscle mass. And yet he was extremely low and she was as surprised as I was relieved to find out why my otherwise lovable pup was a cujo.

 

I do think a complete medical work up is in order before starting any intense behavior modification, he could very well be testing his boundaries but the scale of violence the OP described seems more than normal dominance aggression if really so out of the blue.

 

Maria

[rosefarm]

That's interesting about the thyroid, and I completely believe you. Just that when I was researching other possible symptoms for my now diagnosed inattentive add child, the hypo and hyper, the hyper seemed like the more aggression related disorder. Every day I learn something new. Perhaps that's why I had a more food aggressive dog with my female beagle who was hypo, now being treated.

 

--Denise

[jay7347]

Wow...I didn't mean to hit a nerve. Let me clarify myself to some degree. My suggestion is grabbing by the scruff and putting the neck on the ground. I don't think I said roll and don't use that myself. Do I slam the dog to the ground? Heaven's sake no. But I do grab and slowly force down. Do I do this all the time. NO. This is capital punishment as they say, to be used only when someone, either dog or human could get hurt.

 

Having said that I don't believe in this approach for all dogs. Derry, my teenager, still gets it if she gets in a fight with our older rescue Ellie. Message, I won't stand for aggressive fighting in my pack. Derry is a very "hard" correction dog. Five minutes later and she is usually bumping her nose into my leg seeing if everything is all right in which case I always let her know it is. Ellie, on the other hand is an extremely soft dog, even though she has just established alpha over Derry in the almost four months since we got her. All one needs to do with Ellie is get her to focus and strongly yet calmly voice the command or "No." A "soft" dog just doesn't need any display of alphaness like grabbing the scruff.

 

Above all though I don't believe in correcting my dogs from any emotional state, be it fear or anger. But to me dogs are like my kids, now grown, I would rather lead them by example then correct them.

-jay

[borderlicious]

When my dog gets let outside in the morning, the first thing he does is zoomies around the backyard. The OP's dog can't do that and probably is looking for some way to release some energy, and playing tug with the owner's clothes is a great way to do it. The dog may be frustrated or full of pent-up energy, which can cause somewhat unpredictable behavior. First thing I'd do is find a place to run the living daylights out of the dog, offleash. If you absolutely cannot take the dog out any later than 4am, then 4am it is. Just exhaust him, and see if letting him burn off some steam makes any difference in his reaction to you taking off the leash.

 

Something I'd look into getting after your dog goes to the vet and gets thoroughly checked out, is a head halter with a 12" tab attached to it. On the morning walk, leave this on the dogand hold onto it as you come back inside. If the dog goes for you, you will have complete control of his head and if the head halter tightens enough, it will close his mouth. More of a prevention than a cure, but it'll save your clothes from being shredded and save you from a potential bite.

[Malvie]

Let us know how it turns out!

 

I have a question to the group, while we're on this subject:

 

I have two females, close in age, unrelated by blood. Lucy is half BC/half Collie; Ethel is pure BC. Lucy is DEFINITELY the alpha. I got her first (as a pup) and adopted Ethel later as a "teenager".

 

I have always (and probably always will) had to assert dominance with Lucy; she's large and in charge (actually, physically, she's smaller than both Ethel and me (...). Any time I try to love on, pet, or play with one, the other has to zoom in to make sure she gets her fair share!

 

Both dogs are very attuned to my commands; if I tell them "Get down!" that means get off whatever furniture you're on and I mean right now (and they do it). "Lie down" means exactly that; Ethel scoots to comply; Lucy gives me a "look", I give her one back, and she goes and lies down. "Come" "Sit" "Stay" all work as they should. "Heel" doesn't work, but that's my fault, not theirs (only so many hours in the day).

 

Recently, Ethel has begun to do the following: I'll be sitting down, Lucy will be off getting into mischief. Ethel will come up to me, put both her legs across mine (her body is perpendicular to my legs, her rear legs on the floor), and lean her head over and nuzzle me. I've always interpreted this as "hugging" and "please pet me", but this thread has me thinking, "Is it?"

 

At no time is this around my neck. I won't permit any dog to put her/his paws on my neck or shoulders, ever. If I choose to rub my face on them, that is my choice, but they don't get to touch my head or shoulders on their terms.

 

Is Ethel's behavior "dominance", or is she just wanting attention? (Oh, I would add: Ethel is very laid-back for a BC, and is normally very submissive, both to me and to Lucy. She won't do this if Lucy is around me, because she knows Lucy will "eye" her away.)

 

 

What's the group's opinion?

[Kyrasmom]

My Gracie does it all the time and as it does not create a problem for me, I consider it hugging or wanting attention, either way she usually gets it.

 

But my behaviorist basically made me understand that all dog behaviors have very little to do with our human interpretation of them and a lot to do with their stature and attempt to climb a social ladder.

 

I think what's important is the overall effect it has on your household. If a dog requesting attention and getting it does nothing to upset the flow of the household, I wuold see nothing wrong with granting it. If on the other hand, you see changes or different posturing or different behaviors, then you know it's something different.

 

I "get" what the behaviorist says, but sometimes I also just want to think that they should get a cuddle when they need one.

 

Just my take on it.

Maria

[shelb'smum]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I think what's important is the overall effect it has on your household. If a dog requesting attention and getting it does nothing to upset the flow of the household, I wuold see nothing wrong with granting it. If on the other hand, you see changes or different posturing or different behaviors, then you know it's something different.

 

I "get" what the behaviorist says, but sometimes I also just want to think that they should get a cuddle when they need one.

 

Just my take on it.

Maria

I agree with you ... to an extent.. Shelby tries to "hug" me. and when she does I get up and move. telling her that its not ok if I didn't ask for it. she knows that if she is requesting attetion she needs to come from below not above . usually she'll wiggle her way next to me and but her head under my arm. then she gets all the affection she could desire. Because she is not demanding she is asking. then she will just lean her face aginst my shoulder like a child

[FlyByNight]

So, IMHO, it is not a misunderstood behavior. Dog's, wolves and coyotes will repeatedly assert their dominance in this fashion even when there is not initation of the need to assert it.

As has already been said, it -is- a misinterpretation of wolf behavior. Having spent three months with a pack of wolves studying their behavior, not once did I see what would be described as an "alpha roll." What I did see, were the lower ranking members squeeling and tucking their legs in appeasement to the alpha, during greeting rituals. They would volunteer this behavior, it was not forced.

 

The only one who frequently threw herself on her back was the omega, as a result of constant harsh bullying and harassment from some of the other wolves. Interestingly enough, the alpha rarely, if ever, bullied the omega. The harassment came from the one other female in the pack and some new up-and-coming youngsters who were too big for their britches.

 

This also happened to be during the breeding season, when behavior is at its most intense and conflict is frequent. Still no alpha rolling.

 

In wolves, the only time a wolf forcefully rolls another on its back is with the intent to kill or severely harm it. It is a scary, aggressive behavior that precedes violence.

 

Puppies are given a huge amount of leniency until they are about a year old. They do not have to subscribe to all of the pack "rules" until then. Corrections are given with the muzzle to pups, and with muzzle sparring, posturing, and noise to adults.

 

As others have attested, this is a very dangerous move to use on a truly aggressive dog, and scares the pants off of dogs who are not actually looking to climb the social ladder.

[Malvie]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

My Gracie does it all the time and as it does not create a problem for me, I consider it hugging or wanting attention, either way she usually gets it.

 

But my behaviorist basically made me understand that all dog behaviors have very little to do with our human interpretation of them and a lot to do with their stature and attempt to climb a social ladder.

 

I think what's important is the overall effect it has on your household. If a dog requesting attention and getting it does nothing to upset the flow of the household, I wuold see nothing wrong with granting it. If on the other hand, you see changes or different posturing or different behaviors, then you know it's something different.

 

I "get" what the behaviorist says, but sometimes I also just want to think that they should get a cuddle when they need one.

 

Just my take on it.

Maria

That's been my take on it all along, too...she LOVES being petted and the "legs on lap" behavior is usually accompanied by her shoving her head under my hand if it's nearby. "Pet me". That's what I'm getting from her, but I didn't want it to develop into something else.

 

I think also that I need to be more attentive (it's so easy to pet her), letting her do it ONLY when invited and not on her own.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[Alicia]

The putting down of a dog may be a mireprented WOLF behavior, but I see it daily in the Domestic dogs in the backyard.

My apologies, it may not be the right thing for her to do now, and especailly not when he is trying to bite her. But I do feel that if it was done BEFORE the dogs got this way, the dogs wouldn't be doing it. JMHO. My Dogs certainly arent abused, and they dont think they are when they are put down. My Lab needs more sever punishment, but Dally doesnt need much, Both get put down and neither act as if they've ahd their "pants scared off."

[borderlicious]

Alicia, not trying to start an argument with you, but do you see your dogs actually forcing each other down? Or does the submissive dog roll over on its own? I'm familiar with "packs" of dogs and have spent a lot of time observing dog behavior, and the only time I've seen a dog pinned to the ground was when a dog-reactive Pit Bull was let into the group and started harrassing the other dogs. A dog that stood up for itself got pinned by the Pit Bull. Clearly the dog was behaving in a dominant manner, but that didn't make the dog the alpha. Just a bully. I didn't see this dog gaining respect. While the other dogs took his "corrections" and didn't cower in fear, they also didn't willingly submit to him.

 

I think it's risky business when people believe they can accurately replicate dog behavior and clearly communicate with their dog through physical force. Not saying that you don't know what you're doing, so please don't interpret it that way. I just don't think anyone, no matter how great they are with dogs, can communicate with dogs in 'doglish'. Nothing is proven that dogs learn this way . . . I prefer to stick with what I know is safe and what I know my dog understands, without the least bit of confusion.

 

I'm far from a pure-positive trainer, JFYI. I do use classical and operant conditioning-based methods and avoid physical correction when possible, but i'm not permissive. I just don't see a place for that kind of treatment in the training of the average pet dog.

[Alicia]

Yes, they do. If the dog DOESNT lay down automatically they are bit and pushed to the ground. I no longer have to touch my dogs to get them to submiss in this way, but the first time, like in mothers and pups, they get "bit" (my pushing them down) and growled at. After the first time or two the no longer test and understan me as an Alpha and I just ahve to growl and stand over them and they go down, if they dont, they get "bit" and put down again. In the Doggie Daycare setting, the dogs that get "thrown" down may not be there long enough to fit in the heirarchy of our regular dogs, but the ones that are regular, have their scuffles between the more dominant dogs at first and are literally bit and shoved/ran over into the ground until they flop on their own. They the hold and repeat this heirarchy status as necessary.

I by no means think I am completely replicating "doglish" but I believe whole heartedly that my dogs COMPLETELY understand what is meant by it as they act the same way towards me as they do toward the alpha in the yard.

[FlyByNight]

I'm not going to argue this much with you, as you believe what you believe, and everyone is going to have different experiences.

 

From my lengthy observations of wolves in a semi-natural environment (behavior in wild wolves is often even milder), including wolves and pups, and interaction with them hands-on, alpha rolling is simply not done. The alpha male is the least demonstrative of the group, and does not have to resort to things such as forceful pushing down unless a direct challenge to him is made - and this is after extensive posturing and usually leads to someone bleeding.

 

The only wolves who are constantly physical with the others are those jockeying for the lower ranks, and usually they are taking out frustration on an omega. This is not being dominant, or being a leader, it is being a bully and a jerk. The omega will throw herself on her back and sometimes pee, in a last-ditch effort to get them to leave her alone. She's waving the proverbial white flag to try and save her haunches (which are usually scabbed up and raw).

 

If you observe a greeting ritual among wolves, which is one of the times you will see lower-ranking wolves submitting to an alpha, you will see that everything they are doing - from the squeeling, to the tucking of tails and hind legs, to the trying to be the first wolf to present himself in front of the leader, is all completely voluntary. The alpha is not asking for this. He is not growling, or staring them down. He's not requesting these behaviors. He's just standing there. If anything, he gets annoyed by all the attention and tries to move on.

 

Mothers with pups do not roll them over and hold them down. They are actually exceedingly permissive with them, and go through lengthy measures to chastize poor behavior before even making physical contact. When and if contact is made, it is in the form of a gentle muzzle squeeze. Most of the time, they just get up and leave. The other adults in the pack are equally permissive.

 

Working with wolves as a human, you do not try to establish "dominance" over them. You set yourself up as a benevolent companion, an equal - not a leader. If you tried to alpha roll a wolf, or stare them down, or growl at them, you would lose a hand. When raising packs of wolf puppies by hand, the people raising them do not alpha roll them. For obnoxious behavior, they re-direct or get up and leave.

 

Wolves are much more sensitive and intense than dogs. They will not let people get away with some of the bumbling, silly things we try to do to dogs. A dog is vastly more willing to forgive a person for rude, obnoxious behavior than a wolf. There is a reason people can get away with alpha rolling their dogs.

 

Folks are always surprised when they try to roll a ballsy, dominant dog and, lo and behold, the dog fights back. A wolf would have done so long ago.

[Alicia]

I am not arguing, I find all the info and opinions fascinating actually. I just am going to ahve to agree to disagree. I may be the odd one out but my experience as an owner as well as here at the DDC has supported what I've said. I could be wrong, completely possible, I certainly havent studied dog behavior. However, what I've done with my 2 current dogs and what was done with my family's dog when I was growing up, I believe has prevented any aggressive behavior towards people. It's JMHO and Experiences. I find it quite fascinating that you've been able to study wolves as you have, it's really neat. But to each his own as far as opinions go

[Coloradogirl]

Originally posted by borderlicious:

[QB] Alicia, not trying to start an argument with you, but do you see your dogs actually forcing each other down? Or does the submissive dog roll over on its own? {QUOTE}

 

I have seen my dogs do this on occasion when someone is trying to take over leader of the pack,(the dogs involved where a ACD/Coyote and a purebred ACD both females) it was a true struggle where neither one was going to give up, and the other ended up on the ground by being forced down. It was not a pretty fight, and no amount of yelling, kicking or spraying with the hose stopped the fight. I finally did have the dog that normally started those fights put down, because she would force the kids down also (kids were much younger then). But since then I have not seen that happen.

 

With the pack I have now, they do argue now and then, the last fight I was not home and they are kenneled during the day, the ranch hand took the hose to them to break it up. I figured out later that was the beginning of the old dog no longer being in the top pecking order, right after that I noticed him losing weight and acting ill.

 

On the other side, I think any owner needs to be a strong leader, it needs to be taught from adults down to kids, that is the pecking order, adult, kids, dogs (and the cat is probably the king of all though I would not tell him that).

 

Tracy

[Kyrasmom]

I have a pack of 8 and the only time anyone ends up on their back is when they willingly submit.

 

I also have a bully dog (not so much anymore)but it would seem like he would roll them but in fact they were just really quick to get on their backs to avoid dealing with him.

 

Which I think is the same behavior of any dog who gets rolled by a human, by and large, they're just putting up with it because they're far more patient with us than we are with them most times.

 

Just my take on it, I prefer positive reinforcement but believe in fair and correctly timed corrections. In the time it takes a human to roll a dog.....

 

Maria

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I have a pack of 8 and the only time anyone ends up on their back is when they willingly submit.

 

Ditto here. In my pack of 9, no dominant dog has *ever* rolled a less dominant dog. Even the two most dominant do no more than posture. I have managed to train all of these dogs (some who have arrived as adults, some with issues, and some pups) to be good citizens around people and other animals, all without resorting to the misplaced (IMO) physical domination of an alpha roll. I'm certainly not a pure positive trainer--I just use a no nonsense method of teaching a correction and expecting the dogs to respect that.

 

Alicia,

I think you are fortunate that the alpha roll has worked for you. I would point out that dogs in doggy daycare are *not* a formal pack, nor were they all likely raised the same way (as they wpould have been in a pack), or even raised to be "proper" (for lack of a better word) dogs. Therefore, I believe it's risky to extrapolate dog behavior in such an artificial situation to what is appropriate inter-canine behavior. (For example, I have a rescue who was not properly socialized as a youngster. He has no idea how to interact properly with other dogs. He could go into a daycare situation and manage, but I would hope no one would look at his behavior in such a situation and determine that it's normal dog behavior, because it's not). This is not a personal attack on you--I'm just trying to point out--from one scientist to a future scientist--that you can't base a premise on faulty assumptions and expect it to hold true in the wide world.

 

I have to believe that someone observing wolves, coyotes, or even packs of feral dogs would have a much greater chance of correctly interpreting/extrapolating inter-canine behavior. Granted, dogs are not wolves, which is a lucky thing for all the clueless owners out there.

 

At any rate, as I said before, I don't think it's safe to encourage someone you don't know, whose situation you can't fully know (save what was posted here), and whose dog may possibly be aggressive to attempt something like an alpha roll. Imagine what could happen when a person who has already been made to fear the dog (by the dog) suddenly tries to roll it. Sounds like a recipe for disaster for the human to me.

 

J.

[nancy in AZ]

Fly By Night, may I have your permission to print out your response about your experiences with the wolf pack?

 

I have had an ongoing debate with a local trainer about this very issue. He holds to the "pack leader puts down other dogs in the pack" position and I have repeatedly challenged that assertion.