My BC attacked me........need help fast

[kelpiegirl]

I know this is a tempest in a teapot, but here goes. I now have the ability to watch Ceasar Milan. I won't be watching him anymore, but one of the reasons for that, is this:

He meets with folks with an english bulldog who is a real out of control dog. Snaps at them when they try and get him to go in the kitchen, snaps at them when they try and get on "his" golf cart, and get his hose from him. C.M. comes in, watches, and then as the dog starts his bad behavior, rolls him. Then he straddles him. The dog does NOT immediately succumb to this "transfer of power", he looks away, gets up, and when C.M. tries it again, same thing- dog responds vocally and aggressively- I might add here that the owners are really upset by how their dog is being to C.M.

 

Okay, here is the kicker. The dog is outside with the hose. C.M. teaches them to stick their finger in the back of the mouth/lip to get the dog to open. Remember, the dog snaps aggressively. Ummm, okay... So, the next scene, C.M. goes to get the hose away (because now he is top dog since her rolled the dog). Dog doesn't just snap once, but goes again, and hits home, and C.M. is bitten and bleeding. C.M. handles this with much aplomb and say something about how he went past the dog's threshold. The female owner is crying at this point, and now the dog knows that a bite WILL work, and that now instead of a snap in the air, a bit will be much more effective. Thanks a lot C.M.

 

Julie

[Lenajo]

"Mothers with pups do not roll them over and hold them down."

 

Not really wanting to get into this age old arguement but the above is not true. I've watched nursing females not only roll, but forcefully roll/pin/growl pups as needed. There are permissive dams, just like their are permissive parents, and vis versa, and everything in between. The old girl (definately not of the permissive type) here even had a ritual with her near weaning age pups where she would individually "teach" each pup to submit to her and not let up until she they were relaxed and allowed her to pick them up and move them about as she desired. These pups were some of the best adjusted and dog-savvy youngsters I've seen.

 

There is a lot we don't understand about dog communication, much less that between dogs and humans. For a confident and savvy owner a dominent roll may work beautifully, for an owner in question it may just stimulate the dog to fight back. If in doubt, don't start a fight you can't finish. And if you have to stop and think about what to do, how to "act" the assertive boss...then don't, because a boss doesn't have to play act. Indecisive and thoughtful is the same as "weak and beatable" to the dog who thinks he's already boss.

 

I have no doubt Alicia's dogs are fine with being rolled. They would probably be fine without it, because in her mind, and because of that in their's, she *is* the boss. That's the secret...you can do a lot of things to make the details of life clear to a dog when you are already the leader.

 

If you aren't the leader, and don't want to count coux to get there, then the NILIF is a somewhat slower, and safer, path to what you want.

[trailrider]

If you have to roll a dog you have missed out on much training, and this lazy short cut will not replace proper training.

[smileyzookie]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

I know this is a tempest in a teapot, but here goes. I now have the ability to watch Ceasar Milan. I won't be watching him anymore, but one of the reasons for that, is this:

He meets with folks with an english bulldog who is a real out of control dog. Snaps at them when they try and get him to go in the kitchen, snaps at them when they try and get on "his" golf cart, and get his hose from him. C.M. comes in, watches, and then as the dog starts his bad behavior, rolls him. Then he straddles him. The dog does NOT immediately succumb to this "transfer of power", he looks away, gets up, and when C.M. tries it again, same thing- dog responds vocally and aggressively- I might add here that the owners are really upset by how their dog is being to C.M.

 

Okay, here is the kicker. The dog is outside with the hose. C.M. teaches them to stick their finger in the back of the mouth/lip to get the dog to open. Remember, the dog snaps aggressively. Ummm, okay... So, the next scene, C.M. goes to get the hose away (because now he is top dog since her rolled the dog). Dog doesn't just snap once, but goes again, and hits home, and C.M. is bitten and bleeding. C.M. handles this with much aplomb and say something about how he went past the dog's threshold. The female owner is crying at this point, and now the dog knows that a bite WILL work, and that now instead of a snap in the air, a bit will be much more effective. Thanks a lot C.M.

 

Julie

Ok, I actually watched that same episode. I have to comment, Im sure anyone who has read any of my C.M. posts know I love Ceasar Millan. ... He straddled the dog to show the owner that was impropper. He was showing that the owners way of rolling and straddling him was not effective and that the bulldog knew that he didnt know how to dominate. The dog actually did submit when Ceasar did it properly, and when the owner told him to go into the kitchen (what previously set him into a rampage) he did it willingly without the owner even holding the leash.

 

As for the 2nd part. I saw that completely different as well. He was showing the owner how to get the dog to release the hose. Previously the owner was choking the dog to get him off. Sorry, I'd much rather use Millans approach than choking the dog. Also, I could see where the dog realized he could bite instead of snap, IF Millan gave up, but he didnt, he kept working with the dog. He didnt back down. The female owner was crying because she was sorry he got bit, she even said, "Im sorry he bit you", and Millan said, "It is just a scratch" She cried in the end as well when they did their post interview and she was so happy that they could finally control the dog. They also showed post video the people sent in and the dog was behaving.

 

So we saw the same show with 2 completely different views. Now, that said, I agree that rolling a dog without really knowing how is a great way to be bitten, and I wouldnt recommend it for someone who doesnt know how.

[FlyByNight]

I have never seen either wolf or dog hold a pup down, on his back, forcefully, until the pup stopped moving and went limp. To me, this is teaching learned helplessness.

 

There is a lot that could be said here, but the original poster did not ask for a dissertation on wolf and dog behavior.

 

Let me just say that healthy, socialized dogs and wolves do not roll one another. If things have escalated to that point, then someone is either being a bully and ignoring more subtle cues, or a fight is about to break out.

 

I have seen the results of generations of raising litters of pups (wolf pups, no less) without rolling or pinning them. If a wolf can be raised to accept human handling readily without "proving your dominance" to him, then certainly a dog can.

 

Either way, the point was that it would be a terribly bad idea for this person to try and roll his dog. If the dog feels comfortable enough to attack him, then odds are he will feel comfortable fighting back.

[Alicia]

Originally posted by trailrider:

If you have to roll a dog you have missed out on much training, and this lazy short cut will not replace proper training.

Well, I happen to disagree. My dog's all respect me and other humans as leaders. They behave, and listen and know more then the average dog and learned it quicker and more thoroughly and responsivly then other dogs who were let walk all over people.

 

I dont consider it a short cut and I dont consider it a "replacement for proper training". I feel that so far for me, it has worked and my dogs seem to learn faster AFTER having learned the dominace via rolling then they did before being rolled.

[Alicia]

I am sorry, again, I take back telling the owner to roll the dog, obviously this is the wrong situation. I DO still, however, believe that if the dog was dominated, whether he needed rolled or just had dominace asserted before hand in soe other way, he wouldnt be asserting his dominance now. That was my point, I have already repeatedly taken back my statment for the owner to roll the dog.

 

I understand and appreciate all of the responses.. with the exception of a few minor ones that I took as rather rude, but these were not supported with anything else so.

 

I respect everyone's opinions and their statments, but this has worked for me, I am happy with the way it has worked and feel my dogs respect me much more then many dogs I've seen whether at the DDC or friends and relatives dogs. Again, this is JMHO and Experiences. I am rather enjoying the responses though, lots of interesting information and experiences.

[shelb'smum]

to add to this. I have been around dogs my entire life and while I am still learing and still have LOTS to learn i have seen this. it is uncommon to see one dog roll another. I have seen it done. And I agree that rolling your dog for a Maximum punishment is ok. as long as you know what you are doing.

I have had to roll shelby. she decided that she didn't like that I was taking away her toy so she bit me. she was dropped to the ground and rolled immediately. and held there until she relaxed. then of course got some loving to show no hard feelings. she has not bit or nipped at anyone since. it stopped the nipping of my legs everything. she will still mouth. but in that experiance rolling worked.

 

I really hope that you work this out with your dog. Instead of fearing him, look and try to understand what is happening. everybody had great suggestions. Good luck to you and let us know

[FlyByNight]

Oh, and Nancy in AZ - feel free to print off whatever you like. I don't know that your trainer will believe me though, seeing as how I am just a person off the internet.

 

Maybe he'd give more credit to Patricia McConnell? She's a Ph.D in zoology, specializes in aggression issues, and to top it all off - is a BC owner herself!

 

Here's are a bunch of excerpts from her book The Other End of the Leash : Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs

 

_______________

 

Just as people were taught to "Spare the rod and spoil the child," people have been advised for years to "get dominance over their dogs," and so often getting dominance meant getting aggressive. Even the Monks of New Skete, whose book How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend inspired me and at least a million other people, advised owners to act like wolves and do "alpha rollovers" - to throw dogs down onto their backs to ensure that their dogs would accept them as leaders. The book's main author, Job Michael Evans, later said that he deeply regretted this advice.

 

Well-socialized, healthy dogs don't pin other dogs to the ground. Submissive individuals initiate that posture themselves. The posture is a display signal from one animal to another, a signal of appeasement, not the result of a wrestling maneuver. Forcing dogs into "submission" and screaming in their face is a great way to elicit defensive aggression. It makes sense that a dog would bite, or at least threaten to, in this context. Within their social framework, you're acting like a lunatic. Not only that, but a mature wolf would never attack a puppy that already had something in his mouth. He might growl at a puppy to warn him off an object that lay between them, but once the puppy had it in his mouth, the adult wolf would let him keep it. Mature wolves are amazingly tolerant of puppies, allowing them to steal their toys, chew on their tails, and harass them mercilessly.

Rather than looking at the overall concept of social status, the focus in dog training has been on "dominance," and to the detriment of our dogs, dominance has been equated with aggression. They are very different things, but confusing dominance with aggression is so common that in some circles all talk about dominance is politically incorrect."

A good hypothesis is that although social status is highly relevant to dogs, it's much less of an obsession with them than it is with wolves. Dogs are more like juvenile wolves than adult ones, and young wolves are less interested in social hierarchies than adults are. Eirk Zimen's study of wolves (in Wolves of the World), showed that "rank differences are most prominent among the higher ranking wolves, less distinct among the lower ranks and younger wolves and non-existent among pups."

And on the concept of dominance, etc...

 

"Status," "dominance," and "aggression" are completely different things, and it does our dogs no good when we confuse them. Status is a position or rank within a society, while dominance describes a relationship among individuals, with one having more status than others in a particular context. Aggression is not a necessary component of dominance. Aggression, as defined by biologists, is an action that intends to cause harm, while dominance is a position within a hierarchy.

The aspect of dominance that's important to dog owners is the social freedom that comes with it. Some dogs will mug you relentlessly to get you to pet them but then growl at you later when you reach to pet them in their dog bed. Dogs who are status-seeking and who see themselves as high up in the social order feel the freedom to touch you and solicit petting when they feel like it but will warn you off for taking such social liberties yourself.

The dominance relationship between two animals is expressed by the degree of social freedom each animal allows itself during an encounter. The dominant individual is defined as the one who has priority access to preferred, limited resources.

 

This is why NILIF is so important.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Alicia:

[QB]I am sorry, again, I take back telling the owner to roll the dog, obviously this is the wrong situation. I DO still, however, believe that if the dog was dominated, whether he needed rolled or just had dominace asserted before hand in soe other way, he wouldnt be asserting his dominance now. That was my point, I have already repeatedly taken back my statment for the owner to roll the dog. QB]

Well, I don't remember if it was ever determined what exactly was going on with the OP's dog. Just now, 16 month old Quinn who is very submissive, definitely a lover, not a fighter had some major excess energy to get rid of. He was doing laps around the back yard and started getting too rough when I tried to engage him in play. If I didn't know him, I might have worried when he hurled himself at me growling and repeatedly grabbed and nipped at my coat. This is totally atypical behavior for him.

 

As soon as I said "sit," he did so immediately. The rowdiness was inappropriate. He was testing boundaries. He was being a goof. My Lhasa would say he was being a jerk. I know Cesar Milan would say he was being dominant. But whatever, it was immediately under control when I decided enough was enough. I let it get as far as it did because I had wanted him to blow off some steam. It is a cold, rainy night and I don't feel like taking him for a walk.

 

Wow, look at me ramble Anyway, the OP has had some good suggestions but not knowing the person or the dog, I think he or she needs to get input from a trainer or behaviorist who knows Border Collies. There are so many things that could be causing the dog's behavior from typical puppy nonsense to significant health issues. I worry a little because the OP sounded somewhat afraid. I hope things are going ok over there.

[kelpiegirl]

RE: C.M. show: The dog did NOT submit. If a dog truly submits, it does not get back up and challenge the dominator- watch wolf films for a a bit and you will see what I mean.

Straddling the dog to show it was wrong? HUH? That makes no sense.

As for the hose nonsense- the dog is aggressively snapping at the people! What on EARTH is he doing telling them to stick his hand in the dog's mouth? These are completely naieve dog owners, who based on how the dog sees them will be asking for a bite.

What about this for a solution??? TAKE THE HOSE AWAY? Anytime a dog believes he "owns" something that item is removed- and NOT when the dog can "do" something (as in bite) about it. Rather, remove it, and don't allow it to be "owned" by the dog.

Of course he kept working with the dog after he got bit- that is all part of his aura with dog neophytes- it is all part of "what is normal" because you aren't dominant....

 

The problem with he and his show, is that he markets it to those who have NO CLUE in dog behaviour, and they then try these things at home. SCARY indeed.

And yes, I have worked with aggressive and dominant dogs; I know what it takes to rehab them.

Maybe I should start my own show?

Julie

[jay7347]

Hey FlyByNight, I for one just wanted to say thanks for printing your observations on Wolf behavior. I could listen to lessons like that all day, 'cept I wouldn't get much work done I guess. I've been around Wolves only once, while doing a photo shoot of Jim Balog, my then studio space partner, for a book he was doing. They are truly fascinating animals. But I have to say, the intensity of that Wolf was off the charts compared to any dog I've ever met... very deep animal.

 

I have to admit that you have me thinking and reassesing. I try to take a little from all the trainers I've run into, Patricia McConnell is one who I have the highest respect for, and quite frankly have yet to disagree with anything I've read by her. Have I watched Ceasar, yep, probably every episode. Do I agree with his methods? Probably only 50%. I just think its important to listen to all and then figure out what works best for your situation.

 

I think its important to establish Alpha, or some sort of leadership/provider role for the dogs we own. Does this mean I "wup" them into shape. No, I believe if you get hurtful with a dog they will never trust you. I just had it made pretty clear to me by this last pup, Derry, that I let her get away with too much, in spite of obedience and agility classes. When she then went through a double TPO and I was nursing her back, this shortcoming of mine as a trainer was even more evident as she had me wrapped around her little paw.

 

I guess that's why I've become more of a convert to a strong Alpha/provider posture. As I've said, some dogs like my now 19month old Derry need a strong lead like that. Others like my 8 year old rescue Ellie just need lots of reassurance because their confidence has been so damaged. But above all, I believe that the biggest trainer, ok outside of lots of exercise, is giving them lots of love and playing with them to develop that familiarity and trust.

 

There's many pieces of the puzzle to raising a healthy dog, and its a different puzzle for each. But with learning from others, like your observations FlyByNight, I feel that we can all can be better equipped to deal with the situations we run into.

 

Thanks again for posting, all of you!

-jay

[nancy in AZ]

Thanks Sarah. I used to have a facination with wolves and pack structure back when I was in college. I have read Patricia McConnell, The Other End of the Leash, The Cautious Canine as well as her most recent, For the Love of a Dog.

 

I tried to engage this "behaviorist" in conversation about the biochemical reactions that occur during emotional events, and classical vs operant conditioning, but he was pretty unresponsive. I also asked him if he had read or was familiar with PM--he wasn't. He would never bother to read anything written about his supposed field of study since he thinks he knows it all.

 

That said, I must admit he was very helpful to our situation and really helped me to help Boo turn the corner.

[smileyzookie]

re: CM show. I completely disagree and could explain, but you and I will get nowhere arguing about it. I stand by what I said as I know you'll stand by yours. In this instance lets just agree to disagree.

[Eileen Stein]

Nancy, you would be surprised how many excellent hands-on trainers have no interest at all in reading training books. Or at least I was initially surprised, reader and word-centered person that I am. That is just not the way they take things in and get their knowledge. The best ones I've seen tend to be very intuitive and sensory in their relationship to training and the animals they train. I've come to think they apprehend things more in the way their subjects do. I know that watching what they do and how they do it has made me a lot more impressed by results than theory -- including whatever theories they themselves may employ to try to explain what they're doing.

[nancy in AZ]

Eileen, I completely agree. Personally I've found that many of the best trainers I've been exposed to (in my case, these would be horse trainers) gain their knowledge from their keen intuitive sense and powers of observation. Which is why I've argued in the past that academic credentials, in and of themselves, do not a trainer make. The point I was trying to emphasize was that understanding may be enhanced by developing a deeper knowledge of the anatomy, physiology, biochemistry and even evolution of their subjects.