Guest jackieandryan Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Sage's neck is black and blue and he cries when I examine it, but I can't find any puncture wounds, hematomas or obvious injuries. His voice has a slightly different pitch to it so I am somewhat concerned about bruising of his larynx but he is breathing fine. I gave him an antiinflammatory for the pain. His annual exam was already scheduled for tomorrow so I will have his neck looked at then unless I think he needs to be seen sooner. I did talk to animal control. Because Sage doesn't have any puncture wounds they wouldn't do anything other than talk to the owner. If he did have punctures they would quarantine the Pit Bull. The PB is up to date on rabies, all given at rabies clinics, but has otherwise never seen a vet, which tells you something about the owner. They did add him to their list of problem dogs (they said they had about a dozen PBs on the list for the area). If I ever see that dog loose again I am calling the police. Oh, and I don't care if the bite didn't break the skin. The dog had his jaws clamped tight around Sage's throat and didn't let go until pried off. This was not a quick bite, a nip or a body slam. It was only a matter of time before his teeth went through the skin. I think that Sage was saved from worse injuries because the PB was biting down on its own lips in addition to his throat. Knowing what her dog is capable of I don't think she should ever let it loose again. I would get him to a vet ASAP and try to take pictures of the bruises on his neck if you can. Maybe the vet will find something that you overlooked. I would also see if you could have your vet call AC and let them know that your dog was in fact seriously hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Yeah, it might be good to have a non-involved veterinarian examine the dog, and take photos.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 I do know some really nice bully-type dogs. But what I keep thinking is: ALL dogs will bite, given the right circumstances. It is up to a good (note the adjective!) owner to know what will cause that. If a bully-type dog decides the time is right for a bite - the difference is that those jaws can do much more damage than the Chihuahua or the Golden Retriever - or the Border Collie. It is just too scary to let go. I do hope Sage is just fine - but I'd sure be high-tailing to the vet NOW. If there is any problem, the defense could say, "It wouldn't have been so bad, but she let it go." Best of luck. diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dogslater Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 So if I came up and repeatedly punched you in the face, but left no bruises or evidence of it, I wouldn't be committing a vicious act? Nothing that would justify my killing you. If that dog had intended to seriously hurt Sage, the damage could have been done with a single bite, especially a bite/hold/shake. There is no possible way for you to know that. You're entitled to your opinion. Years and years of working with dogs of all breeds, in shelters, with clients gives me a fair amount of experience in dealing with dog bites. A dog who intended to bite down hard enough to break skin would have done so given how long the attack lasted. Dogs have incredible control over their jaws, can pick a dime up off the floor, shatter bones, and could certainly puncture skin if they wanted too. I'm not saying that the attack was in any way justified, or wasn't terrifying for the owner, or won't have long lasting effects for Sage. I'm also not saying that the owner's behaviour should be ignored. I've had my own dogs attacked and live every day with a dog who is now reactive because she's been attacked while on leash and minding our own business, nowhere near dog parks. I love the bully breeds but they have been bred for generations to fight with other dogs. Working in shelters I've had to break up serious fights and a bit lip is a minor wound that the dog wouldn't have noticed until the fight was over. I would get your vet to check your dog and document any injuries including bruising so that you've got that on file. I'd add that to the report to animal control so that they have that information too. The next dog that gets attacked may not be so lucky and an established prior history may help animal control have that dog declared dangerous. The owner has no business having her dog off-leash when her dog clearly has dog aggression issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Actually, the law is (for people) that you are allowed to use force necessary to stop the attack- that can result in the death of the attacker. Sage is a long haired dog- the dog simply did not have a good bite/grip- dumb luck for the victim. I have seen dogs kill cats and leave absolutely no outward damage- broken necks upon xray. If you worked in the vet field like I did for decades, you would know the old saying that when it comes to dog bites, the damage below the skin is usually 10 times worse than skin damage. I in fact just experienced this with my own dogs. Just a simple bite through the skin resulted in a huge infection, and dead muscle tissue. The whole incident lasted maybe 2-3 secs. I strongly believe Sage should be looked at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 I did have him checked, right after the fight we rinsed the blood off his neck and looked all over for wounds. Regardless of what the dog meant to do I am quickly becoming of the opinion that bully breeds should not be allowed loose in public. They were bred to clamp down and not let go. Whether they mean to do damage or not they are more dangerous than breeds who bite and release. I don't want the dog to be PTS, just controlled and not allowed to run loose so he can't hurt or kill anymore dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Quick OT question: could a boxer be considered a bully breed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dogslater Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 I thought I remembered this from a previous thread where the poster's dog had attacked another dog, ripping off part of an ear: Part of taking your dog to a dog park is knowing that your dog could get hurt...I just don't think you should feel too terrible about it. Dogs are unpredictable. I am all in favour of dangerous dog laws that punish irresponsible owners. Breed specific legislation is a slippery slope that can affect any breed of dog. Italy has BSL for corgis, areas of Australia have banned greyhounds - a blanket law that applies to dogs by breed does nothing to punish bad dog owners. OT - boxers are not generally considered one of the "bully" breeds although they share many of the same characteristics. Boxers are from the Working group, bullies from the Terrier group. When you're talking about BSL bully breeds are usually ID'd as American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, American Bulldogs, Staffordshire Bull Terriers and the all encompasing "dogs who appear to be all or in part related to the above listed breeds". I live in a city with BSL and any short haired, muscular dog with a big head fits the "appears to be" clause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Regardless of what the dog meant to do I am quickly becoming of the opinion that bully breeds should not be allowed loose in public. I understand your anger, but this is not the answer. Lets face it, if the *existing* leash laws were enforced you would not have to add more laws or put up with what you just did. The laws are usually good - the enforcement is the problem. There are many individual dogs that are not bullies that fight by "locking on", and there are wonderful safe off leash pit bulls who would not have been any danger to your dogs that day. IF it's possible, ask your vet if inderol (propanolol) works for dogs. There have been amazing results with it in post traumatic human patients. They have to "set up" (through biofeedback or something similar- I would think in dogs resocialization would apply) the stresser and then the drug blocks the body from recognizing it as stress. It's controversial in humans - regarded by some opponents of the human use as "brainwashing" .... but in a dog...hey, I'd like him to forget this every happened. Just a thought since you are in a great environment for trial medications. And I know you aren't into alternative, but lachesis is a great homeopathic remedy for unprovoked attacks with bruising bite wounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jackieandryan Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 I thought I remembered this from a previous thread where the poster's dog had attacked another dog, ripping off part of an ear:I am all in favour of dangerous dog laws that punish irresponsible owners. Breed specific legislation is a slippery slope that can affect any breed of dog. Italy has BSL for corgis, areas of Australia have banned greyhounds - a blanket law that applies to dogs by breed does nothing to punish bad dog owners. No you remembered correctly. They weren't in a dog park though. They were in a public place where dogs aren't supposed to roam freely. Also, a dog biting another dogs ear is not as serious as a dog wrapping its jaws around another dog's throat. That thread is a completely different matter, because they were in a dog park. Upon entering a dog park, you have to be prepared for the worst to happen. I in no way defended the dog's behavior in the previous thread. And I did note that the owner was responsible and should have payed up because it was in fact her dogs fault. I merely stated that the woman shouldn't be too hard on herself. I was trying to make her feel better. I am pretty sure she learned her lesson. If my own dog were to turn on an innocent dog, I would do everything in my power to remove my own dog as well. I stand by my opinion though. If a dog goes straight for the neck of one of my dogs and refuses to let go, I will kill it. End of story. But obviously you feel completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Oh, and I don't care if the bite didn't break the skin. The dog had his jaws clamped tight around Sage's throat... And, as Liz P pointed out in her first post, this powerfully-jawed dog was shaking Sage. Our old Aussie and Border Collie killed many a woodchuck by a grab and a good shake, without any visible outer damage. It certainly doesn't take a powerful dog long to kill a smaller or lighter-built dog with a series of violent shakes, all without puncturing the skin. As also stated, damage underneath the skin may be very extensive while the condition of the overlying skin does not indicate the damage - bruising, tearing, swelling, etc. Liz P - I would file a report if I were you, if nothing other than to have it on record. And, for all the mannerly bully breed dogs there are, I am one of the many who prefer not to run into one of them when I am with my dogs. I see too many of them that seem to be an accident waiting to happen, some of which (I am sure) is a result of poor ownership and some of which I believe is genetic predisposition. There is the genetic background in dogfighting that these breeds share. Just as Border Collies are often considered not a good choice around small, lively, noisy children for obvious reasons, so too may many bully breed dogs not be a good choice around other dogs. And, yes, if a dog was attacking mine and my choice was to try to kill or incapacitate that dog to save my own, it would be a no-brainer. I would feel the same if it was a person (or animal) trying to do the same to one of my family. JMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Thanks 3dogslater. We have a white boxer who has attacked a little dog already (but owner didn't want to report it) living one house away from me. His owner is a teenager who lets his dog run with the band of off-leash dogs roaming my block (I live across the street from a bunch of them in a cul de sac; our block is awful and known as a huge problem area around my small community). Today, the boxer sort of rushed me as I got to my truck, and I am wondering if boxers share some of that genetic propensity to clamp on or predisposition to be potentially dog aggressive. I do not support BSL that prohibits owning bully breeds, but I think I agree with Liz that bully breeds (um, and maybe boxers, if they share the jaw strength and clamping instinct) probably shouldn't be let off leash in public areas. It's just that if a bully breed gets into a fight with another dog, regardless of its history, the ramifications could be so much worse for the other dog... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Perhaps we should ban all Border Collies from living with children under 8. After all look at the other threads in this forum, all the horror stories... come on people. This was *awful* but the problem could have been just as a non-bully breed. The laws that would have prevented were in place - just not enforced. Liz should, and I hope will, press charges and complaints where she can. And I wonder, would we be freaking out like this if it was a German Shepherd....or a collie...a Malamute.... All could have killed Sage if irresponsibly owned and managed. Remember "punish the deed, not the breed".... When they ban all the bull dogs from public...then they will start on the next breed and type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizmo Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Ditto Lenajo. There are no bad dogs, just bad owners. I'm sorry you and your dog had to go through something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 I do not support BSL that prohibits owning bully breeds, but I think I agree with Liz that bully breeds (um, and maybe boxers, if they share the jaw strength and clamping instinct) probably shouldn't be let off leash in public areas. It's just that if a bully breed gets into a fight with another dog, regardless of its history, the ramifications could be so much worse for the other dog... I owned a Border Collie that paws down, was the most dangerous dog in a fight I've ever seen. I would have never taken her to a dog park, or exposed her to dogs without me being their with my thumb on her (you would have thought she was a perfect angel if you didn't know her mode of operation). She put 45, yes forty-five, stitches in my younger Aussie on Christmas Day eve 2 years ago because of 10 second or less mistake on my part. The previous attack was on another dog of mine and took 3 grown dog savvy adult dog trainers and a fire iron to break up. If another owner had had my dog, and took her too a public place off leash, didn't watch her....should the breed be banned? What it comes down to is making owners legally responsible for what their dogs do. No matter what the breed. That means enforcing the laws, espeically leash laws and responsibility for damages. Lizmo - there are bad dogs unfortunately, but my point is they should be addressed as individuals, not as stereotypes. I'm going to stop now, because this is taking away from the sympathy Sage should be getting. I know Liz has a fair mind, and when her boy feels better I think things will look a little different. My heart goes out to him because you can't tell them it will be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Just to clear things up... 1) I DID file a report this morning. That is how I found out that this dog never goes to see a vet. He just gets his rabies vax at state run clinics. He is now registered as a "problem" dog. 2) Campus IS private property according to the town police. I sent a description of the dog to the campus police so that if the owner ever has the nerve to take him here again she will be asked to leave. 3) Sage has been examined and will be checked again Thursday. He also has an appointment Friday with a board certified animal behaviorist who is very good with fear issues. If he needs drugs to get over this he will get them. 4) I don't agree with BSL but I do think people need to be aware of what their individual dog AND breed is capable of. If you own a BC you need to be aware that they are more likely to chase cars, nip kids and engage in other herding behaviors. If you have a bully breed you need to be aware of the fact that your dog might be more prone to getting into fights and to do serious harm in those fights. I have seen too many previously friendly PBs start nasty fights to want my dogs anywhere near an off lead PB. If I ever seen another PB off lead I am going to walk the other direction. Wendy, it isn't that I am against alternative medicine, I just don't know much about it! I am actually looking for a vet practice where I can spend a few weeks learning about herbal and natural remedies. I just don't agree with people who refuse to give their dogs ANY drugs when they really need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoBC Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Perhaps we should ban all Border Collies from living with children under 8. After all look at the other threads in this forum, all the horror stories... come on people. This was *awful* but the problem could have been just as a non-bully breed. The laws that would have prevented were in place - just not enforced. Liz should, and I hope will, press charges and complaints where she can. And I wonder, would we be freaking out like this if it was a German Shepherd....or a collie...a Malamute.... All could have killed Sage if irresponsibly owned and managed. Remember "punish the deed, not the breed".... When they ban all the bull dogs from public...then they will start on the next breed and type. Yes, I would be just as concerned if it was a Shepard, Collie, or any other breed. The bottom line is, if a dog is attacking my dog that aggressively, it will be delt with. No matter what. If it means I have to hurt it I WILL. I work at a shelter, actually I am the manager and I have seen quite a few different dogs come through. Some PB and some other breeds and I can tell you, I have been bit by a Pit, a shepard, a husky, and a lab. It doesn't matter what breed it is, it can hurt and kill! My point is, I have a fair amount of experience also, and I know if it's biting me or my dog that bad, it is aggressive. People shouldn't have to put up with aggressive dogs when they are out to enjoy the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I have a Boxer. He has never displayed any aggression toward any other dogs- ever. He has a very solid temperament. I have met many just like him, but, I have also met one female Boxer who was horrible to other dogs. She had idiot owners- who "thought" they could have her off leash... None of my dogs are off leash where there are strange dogs. I am wholly responsible for my dogs, and if something got out of hand, I could not address it being several yards away. I think for Liz and Sage, all of this could have gone much better if said woman had a) control of her dog, and had the appropriate amount of remorse for what happened, and offered to help however she could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belay_on Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Perhaps we should ban all Border Collies from living with children under 8. After all look at the other threads in this forum, all the horror stories... A bit tangent, sorry, but I think people working at shelters should discourage people with young kids to get any Border Colllie mix, or any herding breed for that matter... unless they have previous experience with the breed. Sorry for the tangent... I hope Sage will have a speedy mental and physical recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Hi Liz, when you filed the report did they require vet documentation? I feel for what you've been through but if a dog can be listed as a "problem" dog on the basis of someone else's say-so without any documentation to back the complaint up, that is rather disturbing for reasons I am sure you can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Melanie, yes, I see what you mean and would be worried if that meant the dog was seized or restricted in any way after a single incident. That is why I spoke with a police officer minutes after it happened and with the dog warden the next day. Around here "problem dog" doesn't mean a whole lot. If they get another complaint about him an officer will go speak with the owner and make sure she understands the leash law, has a license, stays up to date with vaccines. If complaints continue after that they ask that the dog not leave the owner's property. They don't actually do anything to the dog unless there are bite wounds, in which case the dog would be quarantined. At the end of the quarantine, however, the dog would be allowed to leave the property again. To get the dog euthanized, which I have no plans on doing, I would have to go to court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Geez, it's getting to where you want to carry sawed off baseball bat with you so you can defend your dogs. While my comment will diverge from the main topic, I would agree that, no matter what the circumstances, one should be prepared to fend off an attack (whether on one's person or on one's dog) from another dog when out in public. With that said, a sawed-off baseball bat could be viewed as a weapon, and in many locales may even violate local ordinances. Pepper spray is NOT a good idea; some dogs only become more enraged by it. There are, however, many innocuous everyday items that can be used for defense, whether they are used to shove into the dog's mouth or to physically fend off the attacker. For instance, a sturdy umbrella can be useful (although one might look somewhat ridiculous walking down a street with an umbrella in Phoenix on a nice sunny day). A rolled-up magazine, bound with rubber bands, can also be useful. My personal favorites are a cane or walking stick during the day, and a large D-cell flashlight at night, as well as a Kubotan keychain that I carry at all times; a little training in Yawara or stick-fighting would be useful if you choose this option. In a worst-case scenario, one can also take a leash and shove it all the way to the back of an attacking dog's mouth, which can be painful (but not fatal) for the dog; but this is tricky, and takes practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 So if I came up and repeatedly punched you in the face, but left no bruises or evidence of it, I wouldn't be committing a vicious act? Unfortunately yes, in our society today you need to break the skin and/or break a bone in another person to be charged with higher assault charge. Or if the attacker used a "deadly weapon" then they can be charged at a higher degree of assault. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I think intent factors in as well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 I think intent factors in as well.... Not as much as you would think. I was almost killed, choked to death, at the hands of an ex-boyfriend and because he didn't break any bones they couldn't charge him with very much. It is how the law is written. But if he had used a weapon then they could have charged him with me, but the law doesn't consider hands as a weapon. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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