Take Some, Leave Some: Thoughts on Cesar

[bcnewe2]

I float somewhere in the middle of the road between anthropormorphism and dumb behavior with dogs myself. It's delightfully grey here. Sometimes dogs do things because they really are feeling happy/sad/angry/sulky/silly....and sometimes dogs do things because they are just dogs. It's my job to figure it out and address accordingly.

 

I would say that's right where I sit. In the grey area.

 

I don't mind CM, he's trying to do what he does best. If he helps some then it's good. If he doesn't, then hopefully they will look else where. I think his balanced mind and calm energy is spot on.

 

I was once out with Jack K. at a Sat. night dinner after a clinic. The whole table got into talking about CM (and American Idol but that's another post) One of the clinic participants was adamant about hating CM. Jack casually commented that he thought CM was just another trainer doing a pretty good job in the context of the dogs he is working with. It got pretty heated till Jack made a big joke about something else and the conservation petered out.

 

Kristine has made more since to me about clicker training or positive training than I've even been able to understand by the other countless clicker trainers out there. She has opened my mind with her explanations more than I ever thought I could. IMO I think she doesn't really feel that correction based training is horrible but that she's found what works for her. Thanks Kristine for opening my eyes to one more way of dog training. (it's not this post particularly that I'm referring to but lots of her posts) correct me if I’m wrong Kristine.

 

I enjoy reading Becca's posts too. What you think you might be lacking in dog training, you sure make up in your written words! I've agreed with all you've wrote in this post and many more.

 

As far as the shhhhhtt noise around here....

That's the noise I use to send a dog off to sheep. I'd like to see someone try to use it as a correction on them! They'd be wondering what happened to the dog cause it'd be long gone looking for the sheep they were just sent to find!

 

BTW...I used an electronic bark collar on 2 of my dogs. They would bark to a freenzy each time I'd go out to train other dogs. I'd go back to correct them but by the time I got back, they'd have quit barking so how could I correct. It worked perfectly for us. I only used it a few days on each. Neither suffered any damage and I can now go work without the horrid barking.

Personally I don't think I'd use an E-collar cause my timing is not as good as the bark collar is. But if someone can use one "correctly" (being the key word here) I don't see why not. With a big exception of stockwork training. It's cheating if you ask me in that area!

 

Kristen

[Ruger's Dad]

Time to put in my two cents worth. First, to own a Border Collie you have to be on your game. We all have dogs that need lots of stimuation and interaction. We know how destructive one can be without the proper work and training, every single day. All responsible Border Collie owners know that we just adopted another hyper-active child when we acquired the dog.

 

That being said, if you pay attention to the Cesar you find that about 75% of the people he deals with don't know beans about training dogs. They let their dogs get away with everything. There is no discipline or intentional training going on. I would bet that even his red zone cases would have never gotten to that point if the owner put the time into the dog that most of us do.

 

The other 25% of the owners is where Cesar really shines. He has taken some real basket cases and turned them around. I enjoy his show and have learned a lot just watching it. However, I have probably learned more about the dog owners that have failed in their attempts to have a well balanced dog in their lives.

[OffTopic]

Is it the general consensus that most people are too stupid to figure out what is best for their dog? Excepting, of course, the esteemed board members?

That's absolutely not what I was implying. And I certainly wouldn't hold myself up as an "esteemed" board member since I've only been here a few months. Besides, how do I know the rest of you are all that "esteemed"?

 

What I was implying was that there are a lot of people who are going to take what they want out of any literature, dog training books being no exception. For example, if someone is already inclined to want to use an E-Collar on their dog as an "easy out", they can point to Cesar as an expert who validates their position, even though careful reading clearly shows otherwise.

And if someone isn't really paying attention to what they're reading, I think Cesar's books can be a bad choice for a novice dog trainer, even though he does have some good information in them.....partially because of his show's popularity. The show focuses on extreme cases and extreme measures. His books sales are certainly fueled by the show. Fans of the show are likely (note, I said "likely" not "definitely") to have already formed favorable opinions on dominance and being the "pack leader" and doing alpha rolls on aggressive dogs because they've seen him do it on the show and they like him. So there is a chance these fans will read "E-Collars can be an effective training method" and gloss over the part where he says they can also do a lot of damage (if used incorrectly, I should add).

It's careless.

 

You've got an awful lot of assumptions going on there. Most careless readers don't pick up a book like that to read.

I think that's actually a pretty broad assumption. Just because someone has an interest in a specific subject such as dog training doesn't mean they are going to study the books carefully.

Plus, I never said I thought E-Collars are inherently evil. Not even once.

[Marilyn T]

I trained obedience and flyball in the beginning. It was post 'jerk and pull', but pre 'clicker'. I thought that the best results were obtained by a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. I taught KPT for about 10 years and would explain to the people that they are just giving information to their puppies... yes that is good, no that is bad. Keep emotion out of it. However, when you train an unnatural behavior you work into it, by guiding the dog with food, positive reinforcement, and mild corrections for ignoring you or not quite getting what you want. We called it shaping. In household situations, where there is an obnoxious behavior, your goal is to eliminate it from the begining... counter surfing, garbage tipping, charging the door, guarding a food bowl, etc. Sometimes, you as a trainer need to come in and make the dog think his world will end if he continues that destructive behavoir. It is kinder to eliminate those behaviors than nag at a dog for a long time in the hopes he will change.

 

A mentor in that world once told me that dog training is 50% science and 50% art. Not everybody gets it. Not everybody has that artistic feel for reading a dog and what they need at any single particular moment. That is why reading a book might result in inappropriate interpretation.

 

I have watched maybe 6-7 hours total of CM. He gets the hopeless, helpless owners who (in years past) would be one step away from taking their destructive dogs to the pound, or being seroiusly bitten. I agree with Jack from a post above, that CM does a pretty good job with what he is presented with. Many of you with lots of experience training dogs seem to want to pick him apart. A person can never write a book, or even an article that SOMEBODY doesn't misread or misinterpret. You can't help that and neither can he. His message that the owner is the person who should be in control, and dogs need exercise are much needed by the average dog owner. We are a generation who grew up watching the likes of Lassie. Casual dog owners want their dogs to do stuff because they love them. They don't want to chance losing the dog's love. That attitude gets them in the trouble that CM needs to dig them out of. How many of you know of a nasty poodle that is owned by a relative who will hump the human babies if they are on the floor, or claim the couch, and nobody better get on it without her approval. Those are the folks that he helps. Thank God somebody does. It seems that the dog owners are prettty happy with his results. The dogs also seem much happier. Win win.

[Skyler]

In household situations, where there is an obnoxious behavior, your goal is to eliminate it from the begining... counter surfing, garbage tipping, charging the door, guarding a food bowl, etc. Sometimes, you as a trainer need to come in and make the dog think his world will end if he continues that destructive behavoir. It is kinder to eliminate those behaviors than nag at a dog for a long time in the hopes he will change.

 

+20 to this. I am all for positive reinforcement in every way. However, there is just some behavior that is unacceptable and must be corrected in a way that the dog cannot fail to realize the seriousness of your discipline.

 

Another example that you did not mention is chasing cars. I have no problem putting a choke chain on the pup and making the dog realize that chasing big metal boxes on wheels means my air is cut off and a sharp pain. Its better than the pain of a tire or bumper.

 

On the flip side of the coin I believe it is rediculous to use a choke chain to teach sit and the like when there is an option such as a clicker.

[mum24dog]

I can't understand those of you who bother to use a clicker but have no problem with causing pain to your dog either by the use of shock or prong collars or choke chains.

Pain and punishment is complete anathema to the philosophy of clicker training.

I appreciate that I don't have the same cultural influences as you in the US but after all the positive training revolution which includes clicker training has largely come from your side of the Atlantic.

It upsets me to see two opposite training methods confused in this way.

 

Pam

[Tranquilis]

Ah, Cesar.

 

Hmmm.

 

Nah, not all that impressed.

 

First, the format of the shows REQUIRES that you not see everything that's being done - it simply all cannot be aired in the time available, and futher, the format strongly encourages editing to show apparent 'miracle corrections.' I very strongly suspect that we're not seeing even one-tenth the work he does in each case. Second, the show cherry-picks its cases to suit the format, so again, not all that impressed - Of the shows I've seen, not one had a real hardcase. I'd be more impressed to see him come up with a merely 'acceptable' improvement from a really hard-headed dog. It's possible he has some clips like that, but I haven't seen one yet. Third, he's using techniques that work, for him.

 

I used largely different techniques with my dogs, and by and large had similar results. Oh, some techniques we share, but those are almost all the 'common sense' ones. I also used different techniques with each dog - what works on one didn't always work on another. In fact, I'd have loved to see him take on the challenge of my childhood Cocker, Mandy - Worst possible temperment you could imagine, as she was pure 100% extruded Puppy-Mill product. She still became a pretty damn good companion and pet, despite being shy-sharp, excessively fearful, fear-biting, territorial, possesive, obsessive, and hyper-sensitive. I'll betcha he wouldn't have done one iota better, and likely not as well, as we did.

 

Is he a BAD trainer? I dunno. I don't consider myself a 'trainer,' per se... that is, I don't consider myself qualified to give training advice. OTOH, I have had more than a couple dogs over the years, and have had more than a little success with them, at least at the companion level. I do know that his methods and mine don't line up.

[painted_ponies]

As I said above, I've only watched one episode so can't comment on CM directly. But in general I'm suspicious of TV trainers, whether it's CM or "natural horsemen" like Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson.

 

This weekend, I was at a Jack Knox clinic, and heard him explain why he doesn't allow videos of his clinics. He said (and I'm paraphrasing from memory, of course) that people get hung up on a certain method or training tool and think, for example, they can always use x correction to get y result. So they might watch a video of Jack training a dog and think if they copy exactly what he did in that particular situation with that individual dog, they'd get the same result with perhaps an entirely different sort of dog in a dissimilar situation.

 

I think he's right. The danger in having a template is in trying to force everything to fit into it, whether it will or not. I often hear of people trying a certain formulaic approach and getting frustrated with their dog or horse because he doesn't respond as they expect. For example, a woman on a horse board I frequent is all upset because her horse refuses back up when she shakes the lead rope (as Pat Parelli's DVD advises her to do). The horse will, however, back up immediately when she touches him on the chest with her finger. *sigh* We should all have such problems.

 

I think the title of this thread sums it up pretty well. "Take some, leave some." Is everything CM says nonsense? Well, I don't know, but odds are against it. So I guess if someone saw him use a particular technique that they'd never thought of, they might try it on their own dog and see if they get a good result. The dog will tell you if what you're doing works for him or not. The real key to the whole thing is learning to listen to your dog.

[Samantha J]

I can't understand those of you who bother to use a clicker but have no problem with causing pain to your dog either by the use of shock or prong collars or choke chains.

Pain and punishment is complete anathema to the philosophy of clicker training.

I appreciate that I don't have the same cultural influences as you in the US but after all the positive training revolution which includes clicker training has largely come from your side of the Atlantic.

It upsets me to see two opposite training methods confused in this way.

 

Pam

 

 

Um have to admit i skimmed this whole thread but i have to say i agree with this really. Maybe it is a UK thing but i have never seen a prong, electric collar ever for sale here. Maybe we can get them, i don't know but they are frowned upon here like the choke chains. Even at my local animal rescue centre there is a poster there about the effects of the choke chain on the neck and how they don't use them. I don't know anyone personally who uses them, i did come across a man a while back with his dog who had a choke chain on. I had Holly so it wasn't that long ago, anyway he had had this dog a long time and thought it was good to say sit, the dog didn't and so he yanked its poor neck. Then it sat, well i would sit if someone yanked my neck. I did tell him in a nice way of course that i didn't like them. He thought it was a good thing and i didn't. We had a good friendly chat actually.

 

I have seen a few episodes of CM and i quite like him, even joined his Dogster group. Although i admit i never go in there but i have not seen any episodes when he uses electric collars etc or read his books and so i don't really know all his opinions. I wouldn't enjoy watching any use of the above items though.

 

I much prefer our Victoria Stillwell and her approaches. I have picked up quite a few tips from her shows.

[Skyler]

I have seen a few episodes of CM and i quite like him, even joined his Dogster group. Although i admit i never go in there but i have not seen any episodes when he uses electric collars etc or read his books and so i don't really know all his opinions.

 

 

I have never seen Cesar use a shock collar before but I have seen him use prong collars before as well as choke chains many many times.

 

I can't understand those of you who bother to use a clicker but have no problem with causing pain to your dog either by the use of shock or prong collars or choke chains.

Pain and punishment is complete anathema to the philosophy of clicker training.

I appreciate that I don't have the same cultural influences as you in the US but after all the positive training revolution which includes clicker training has largely come from your side of the Atlantic.

It upsets me to see two opposite training methods confused in this way.

Pam

 

I cant understand anyone who cannot grasp the simple fact that there are times when drastic measures need to be used. It is simply unreasonable to not do everything in ones power to train their dog ESPECIALLY when it comes to something that is so dangerous it could easily cost them their life.

 

I use clicker training for 99% of my training. However, when the simple click and treat or reward of praise is overpowered by the dogs fear reaction or instinct you do whatever it is that gets that dogs attention. I couldnt care less how contrary to someones philosophy it is if their philosophy doesnt work for that situation. Simply put, if one doesnt rid a dog of chasing cars (even if it means using a choke or shock collar as a last resort) then that person has failed their dog miserably. It is in no way being cruel to the animal; it is called tough love. You do it because you love them enough to put away your own feelings and do what it takes to save their life - period.

 

And please dont judge people by making tacky statements about the country they are from. You may appreciate that you dont have American cultural influences but there is no need to make such a separative and shallow statement on a dog forum. It is simply poor taste.

[painted_ponies]

And please dont judge people by making tacky statements about the country they are from. You may appreciate that you dont have my cultural influences but there is no need to make such a separative and shallow statement on a dog forum. It is simply poor taste.

 

How is an observation that different countries have different cultures in poor taste?

[OffTopic]

I have never seen Cesar use a shock collar before but I have seen him use prong collars before as well as choke chains many many times.

There was an episode where a farm dog was chasing the combine (I think that's what it's called, city girl here) and the owners were afraid the dog would be killed. Cesar used an E-Collar in that case. He felt that the dog was in immediate danger and other methods would be too slow.

He was very careful to show the owners the correct way to use the collar.

[Samantha J]

I have never seen Cesar use a shock collar before but I have seen him use prong collars before as well as choke chains many many times.

 

Umm i have only seen a handful of episodes actually. Like i put i don't know all his methods. I remember at the time liking him but i don't remember of the ones i watched him using the above. Obviously reading threads like these, he does. I think i will definately have to watch some more episodes now.

 

 

And please dont judge people by making tacky statements about the country they are from. You may appreciate that you dont have American cultural influences but there is no need to make such a separative and shallow statement on a dog forum. It is simply poor taste.

 

 

I don't think that mum24dog was being offensive to any country, i think she just stated her opinion. It is different over here to the US. We do all have different views, even people from the same country have different views though. Surely that is what this forum is all about.

[Maralynn]

I can't understand those of you who bother to use a clicker but have no problem with causing pain to your dog either by the use of shock or prong collars or choke chains.

Pain and punishment is complete anathema to the philosophy of clicker training.

I appreciate that I don't have the same cultural influences as you in the US but after all the positive training revolution which includes clicker training has largely come from your side of the Atlantic.

It upsets me to see two opposite training methods confused in this way.

 

A couple comments here. First I am 100% with you on choke chains

 

Second, the prong collar is self correcting and, while it looks quite nasty, it is not. It is uncomfortable, but doesn't cause pain when used correctly.

 

I use a clicker to help teach what I want my dog to learn. I use a prong to correct unwanted behavior - like biting cats or blowing me off.

 

Basically I make it fun and enjoyable to learn and work with me and I make it uncomfortable to do a few things that are totally not acceptable. And I have a dog who likes working and spending time with me and has gained alot more freedom to follow me around the farm and enjoy life because he understands and respects the rules.

[bcnewe2]

So how does a clicker trainer or positive only person get a dog off a sheep's rump or neck when the dog decides to hang on and not let go? How does one get a dog to do something so unnatural to it's instincts with a treat when the dog doesn’t even see the treat right under it’s nose?

 

I'm not into beating or abusing a dog. But there are times when I know a/my dog would not care one bit even if you/I offered the best jackpot treat you could find. Their basic instinct is stopping all positive training techniques from even scratching the surface.

 

Pam, even if Kristine responds would you please respond too?

 

btw, I don't own a pinch collar or a choke collar except the ones I bought to use for gate chains. I don't cause pain to my dogs lightly, I don't advocate training with pain, but there are some things out there that a click or treat won't even come close to getting through to a keen dog.

Please read Becca's post about asking then correcting. Not beating, but not positively reinforcing something either. A correction might be a loud stern voice, might be a tug on the long line. Might even be a swat on the butt. Not beating or abusing. I don’t choose to use pinch or choke collar but that’s because what I’m training for would cause those tools to be useless or get a dog hurt. I don’t need to use one for obedience training. I use a flat buckle, but I don’t correct when I’m training ob. I use treats and shape those behaviors. That’s my chosen technique for that training area.

 

Tell me how you might shape a behavior to stop the barking of a dog that's keener than you can imagine to do what you're doing right under its nose and not bark? If you can offer me a valid choice I would/will certainly try it. Some dogs would learn with just a growl but isn't that negative training too? Most of my dogs are keener than others, that's why they're here. What would you do?

 

I think it's called balanced training, I used it on my kids too! Haven't ever spanked, hit, pinched or choked my son. But he does know what a correction is. And if he kept running out in the street and a swat on the butt taught him not to, then I'd sure be swatting him. Not beating or abusing him.

The dogs are my partners but they have to learn how to be my partners, I don't rule them when I work them, we work as a team. All this "pack leader" stuff is a bit out of context for me. I don't care when/if my dog goes though a door first but I do care when he isn't listening to me when we work stock. If he bothering me, then I tell him to leave me alone but I don't think he's trying to dominate me. He loves me. Not fears me.

Kristen

[Skyler]

I don't think that mum24dog was being offensive to any country, i think she just stated her opinion. It is different over here to the US. We do all have different views, even people from the same country have different views though. Surely that is what this forum is all about.

 

It read quite the opposite to me. If it was not intended to be in such a way as I understood it then I stand corrected and offer sincere appologies. It read rather distasteful the first few times that I looked at it. As I read it over and over I see that I may have perhaps misinterpreted as it can be read both ways. You may push the shock button on me if you like Holly's mum and Mum24Dog

 

Or just poke me in the neck and say, "SHHHHHHTTTTTT!!!!" Thanks for pointing out my error.

[bcnewe2]

I was out doing chores thinking about what I had typed.

Why did I put down earlier in this post that I used a bark collar to help train my dog to refrain from barking when I’m working other dogs? Why did someone disagreeing or finding fault in my written words bother me?

 

So…after due consideration…

I apologize for getting a bit defensive and replying in that fashion to Pam. She hit close to home with what I took years to become comfortable with. My style of dog training.

 

I don’t apologize for my dog training methods and will continue to use what manner I see fit at the time and need to be able to accept someone’s right to differ and not try to “make” them understand where I’m coming from. I need to be open to learning what ways others might be using and keep what works and disregarding what doesn’t work for me. I need to keep passing on what I've learned because that's the type of person I am.

 

Learning the fine art of stock dog training is my passion. I do it because I love it. The rest of the dog training I've picked up on the way is peanuts compared to the bond and enjoyment that I get from stockwork.

What I’ve learned over the last 9+ years of working with stockdogs is mine, I’m comfortable with it, and need no others approval for it. I will offer my advice and thoughts on different things on this list because I choose to participate in discussions on the thing I love most. But what I need to work on is accepting others opinions of me as just that. Theirs, not mine.

 

So Pam, I’d still really like to hear what you think and I'm sorry if I came off defensive.

 

Kristen

[Root Beer]

So how does a clicker trainer or positive only person get a dog off a sheep's rump or neck when the dog decides to hang on and not let go? How does one get a dog to do something so unnatural to it's instincts with a treat when the dog doesn’t even see the treat right under it’s nose?

 

I'm not into beating or abusing a dog. But there are times when I know a/my dog would not care one bit even if you/I offered the best jackpot treat you could find. Their basic instinct is stopping all positive training techniques from even scratching the surface.

 

Pam, even if Kristine responds would you please respond too?

 

You have to know I can't resist this one!

 

This is an instance where I think that the methods used in training a stockdog and training a pet/sport dog will often be different. I honestly don't know if you can be "positive only" in stockwork. That's actually part of the reason (although the main reason was the expense and time requirement) that I decided not to pursue it with Dean. I am very committed to training him with "positive only" methods (for various reasons, some which might not be expected), and I didn't see that happening in stockwork.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done. I know that stockwork training is done "more positively" by some and "more harshly" by others. But I've never heard of it being done through purely positive training per se.

 

I see training a stockdog and training a dog to be a pet/companion/sport dog kind of like the difference between training someone to be a "Special Forces" soldier in the military and training someone to teach elementary school. The methods used to train the soldiers and the methods used to train the teachers will necessarily differ. And in spite of that, neither cancels out the value of the other in it's appropriate place. Each type of training must be specialized to the end task. It wouldn't be appropriate to train an elementary school teacher to deal with violent insurgents in battle, nor would it be appropriate to train a Special Forces soldier to consider learning styles and age appropriateness first and make a lesson plan when dealing with a hostile enemy. And yet, the specific training for each occupation is highly valuable when geared toward its purpose.

 

In general, I would say (from the limited knowlege that I have) that a certain approach is required in stockwork that would not be at all appropriate in training a dog to play sports or do therapy work, etc. Conversely, where I personally want my pet/companion/sport dogs to be creative and whimsical and happy go lucky most of the time, that wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for a dog that had the responsibility of working sheep.

 

I explored the use of positive methods a bit when I took some lessons on sheep with Speedy (weekly for almost a year), I did not take clickers, treats, balls, tugs, targets, etc. to the field. (OK, most of that was scattered about my car, but you know what I mean!) Those items weren't of any use there.

 

But Speedy is a dog with a fearful temperament and all but the absolute mildest corrections (like saying his name in a serious tone) are out of the question with him. His instructor knew him well and handled him within that framework. It was a nice balance.

 

I did incorporate positive training methods into what we did. For instance, at first the only way I could call him off the sheep to me was to say "Return". I had trained "Return" for years in his sport training. He knew that it meant "leave what you are doing and come to me". It was conditioned enough that it called him off the sheep until he learned (again, off the sheep) what "That'll do" meant.

 

When he didn't actually "down" to lie down, I worked with him at home with his ball. When we played outside, he learned to "lie down" on cue to get the ball thrown. He still preferred to stop in a stand on the sheep, but he could "down" if he had to, and I saw improvement to his response to "lie down" on sheep whenever we worked the exercise with the ball at home.

 

Of course, there were things he couldn't learn at home. He had to learn those things in the context of the sheep in the round pen, and so that's what we did.

 

Their basic instinct is stopping all positive training techniques from even scratching the surface.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that this is always true. Speedy's instructor would usually train him by blocking his access to the sheep when he didn't comply with what she asked of him. He could try everything he could think of to get them (run around, pick up sticks, eat sheep poo, stare at me off on the sidelines), but he did not get them. When he did what she wanted, he was allowed to have them. As his response to her directives became more solid, he was given access to the sheep faster. That is actually positive training at it's finest. She controlled what he wanted most. To get it, he had to do what she wanted. When he complied, he got what he wanted. No clicker was necessary because the sheep themselves were a primary reinforcer and no conditioned reinforcer was needed.

 

However, that was a case where I had a dog who is primarily a companion/pet/sport dog. The purpose of his lessons on the sheep was for his personal enrichment (I know that's controversial, but his instructor was competent and the sheep were perfectly well treated), not to prepare him to work stock seriously.

 

I would maintain that in the case of a dog that is being prepared to work sheep on a farm or ranch, or who is going to trial, purely positive methods may not be possible.

 

At the same time, I don't see that as taking anything away from the value of the clicker/treats/toys/positive reinforcement training when the dog is being trained to play Agility, Rally Obedience, or Freestyle, or just to be a polite and appropriate pet. (I'm not implying that you think it does!! ) Personally, I would no more consider training a dog to perform in Freestyle without a clicker than I would expect someone to train stockwork without sheep.

 

If I ever had a dog that I was seriously inclined to get into stockwork with, I would find the most positive instructor possible, and keep it as positive as possible. But I would also expect to have to allow for some elements of correction in the process.

[Samantha J]

It read quite the opposite to me. If it was not intended to be in such a way as I understood it then I stand corrected and offer sincere appologies. It read rather distasteful the first few times that I looked at it. As I read it over and over I see that I may have perhaps misinterpreted as it can be read both ways. You may push the shock button on me if you like Holly's mum and Mum24Dog

 

Or just poke me in the neck and say, "SHHHHHHTTTTTT!!!!" Thanks for pointing out my error.

 

 

No worries

 

I think we can all read things differently and all put things we think afterwards maybe we shouldn't have done. Or at least we may have done differently. I know i have.

[Lenajo]

And vis versa, I do not see how you can train a pet dog, or an elementry school kid for that matter , without some corrections. There are simply things that are far more rewarding for the dog/kid to do than any human/parent provided reward.

 

It's rather cruel if you think about it, to raise a dog in a marshmellow world then the minute life gets important (i.e. it has greater reward than treats, please or thank you stuff) you then back up and do corrections like aggressively blocking him off his sheep (and that is a correction). Sort of like a kid who goes though life in a positive-only way and then ends up doing his military duty where life/corrections occur. Or forget the military example...the kid just grows up and gets a job and has to do what he's supposed to just because. No treats offered. Just do it, or you are fired.

 

The whole positive only thing is unbalanced to me. It's almost as if, in many cases that corrections are feared by parents and by dog trainers. That they cannot control themselves if they give in and give one. So they go to other extremes. It isn't really about the kids or the dogs...it's about the parents and the trainers.

 

There is nothing wrong with being Positive only in theory....but unless you want to only work with animals contained in tanks and pens you are going to find it limiting. If that's ok...and you are getting what you want...then I'm happy for you. But when I take dogs, and kids, out in the public (real) world I need every facet of the 4 types of operant condition to maintain the relationship, and yes the control, thats good for all.

 

2 cents and change...

 

You have to know I can't resist this one!

 

This is an instance where I think that the methods used in training a stockdog and training a pet/sport dog will often be different. I honestly don't know if you can be "positive only" in stockwork.

[Wendy V]

The whole positive only thing is unbalanced to me. It's almost as if, in many cases that corrections are feared by parents and by dog trainers. That they cannot control themselves if they give in and give one. So they go to other extremes. It isn't really about the kids or the dogs...it's about the parents and the trainers.

 

This rings quite true. I have known people who could not give a correction without emotional involvement, i.e. anger, or frustration. The emotion was more damaging to the dog/human relationship than the correction itself. After the correction, the person feels guilty for losing control and seeks to avoid corrections in the future. The result is no progress in traiing; only spinning in circles.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It wouldn't be appropriate to train an elementary school teacher to deal with violent insurgents in battle

 

I dunno. I was a teacher for a year and think this might have been helpful training, personally.

 

That's a joke of course but seriously, the learning model is more holistic and flexible than you are implying here. My education in learning and perception models is something I've been able to apply in the most surprising situations and I could see where it would not be out of place in developing battlefield strategy and even in on-the-spot mission strategy. I was at a clinic where a psychologist brought up amazing parallels between problems dogs face working, and the process behavioral therapists use to "talk through" the fears of PTSD victims.

 

You can't put learning theory models in little compartments - the mind is fluid and training models must be just as flexible to be applicable to real life. I think that's CM's greatest strength.

[Eileen Stein]

I'm trying to stay out of yet another go-round re Cesar Millan, but I want to at least comment on this one peripheral point. Skyler, when mum24dog wrote " I appreciate that I don't have the same cultural influences as you in the US . . ." she was using "appreciate" in the British sense of "understand," rather than in the US sense of "am grateful." I think that's why it came across as offensive to you when she didn't mean it that way.

 

And while I am usually the first person to appreciate (in the British sense) the effect that national culture has on a country's citizens/subjects, I don't think what's being said here is in any respect a reflection of US culture. There are many different cultures in the US when it comes to training methods, and you're as likely to encounter all-positive trainers here as to encounter ones who also use corrections. (Well actually, I hope there are more of the latter, but certainly in some circles there are more of the former.)

 

As regards sheepdog training, it's important to remember that a sheepdog has to THINK to do its work well, not just to reliably replicate the same behavior (like touching a contact point or sitting perfectly straight, or not chasing the cat). Therefore, IMO a training method which requires the dog to put some effort into figuring out what you want is desirable, because it's developing his capacity to think, and a clicker which just marks a precise instance of correct behavior is not that desirable, even assuming the dog were not too engrossed to notice or care about the clicker. A correction helps the dog to appreciate (in the British sense) that what he did was wrong, and helps him to figure out why.

[stockdogranch]

Conversely, where I personally want my pet/companion/sport dogs to be creative and whimsical and happy go lucky most of the time, that wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for a dog that had the responsibility of working sheep.

 

I'm not sure that the two (happy-go-lucky/whimsical/creative and responsible (for working stock)) are necessarily mutually exclusive. If you have a really good stockdog, who, through various training techniques (asking vs. making, as well as corrections) has truly become your partner, then s/he needs to be creative at least some of the time to solve various problems while working, and can certainly be rather whimsical about the work, while still being deadly serious about it. I think that kind of attitude comes from a dog who is very confident in his/her abilities to do the work. Just because it's called *work* doesn't mean they don't thoroughly enjoy the challenge of using their brains to problem solve. To them, at least some that I know, that's the fun. And I would even go so far as to describe some (in fact, the best ones I know) as having a "whimsical" attitude sometimes while working (and these dogs have never seen a clicker or a treat). So just because their training was not "positive only" does not mean that they cannot be whimsical.

 

ETA: the linguist in me is defining "whimsical" not as silly, but rather as light-hearted,

 

A

[Skyler]

Skyler, when mum24dog wrote " I appreciate that I don't have the same cultural influences as you in the US . . ." she was using "appreciate" in the British sense of "understand," rather than in the US sense of "am grateful." I think that's why it came across as offensive to you when she didn't mean it that way.

 

Eileen, I believe you are quite right in your statement. As you diligently pointed out there are differences in interpretation and uses of the word "appreciate" in different cultures. That is exactly what threw me for a loop. Strange how that can happen isnt it? Sheesh, now I feel like a putz seeing it as it was initially expressed to be. Wouldnt be the first time I have been a putz either