Take Some, Leave Some: Thoughts on Cesar

[Root Beer]

It's rather cruel if you think about it, to raise a dog in a marshmellow world then the minute life gets important (i.e. it has greater reward than treats, please or thank you stuff) you then back up and do corrections like aggressively blocking him off his sheep (and that is a correction).

 

If you judge me as cruel because I train my dogs according to the methods that I personally see fit to train with, then so be it. I don't really draw the same conclusion, but if that's how you see it, I'm not going to argue with your perception.

 

For the record, though, Speedy's trainer never "aggressively" blocked him. She was quite neutral about it. I don't really define standing between a dog and something that the dog wants as a "correction", either.

[FlyByNight]

This is a little off-topic I suppose, but I notice that every time I come here and read on this board I have to consciously re-adjust my thinking to "Border Collie people" or else I end up misinterpreting things. I'm a German Shepherd person, with an interest in Border Collies. Shepherds are what I've known almost exclusively in my dog raising/training endeavors.

 

So when I see people referencing corrections, for example, I'm thinking of a pop on a prong or choke chain, or a swift scruff grab/shake, accompanied by a stern verbal admonishment, with the occasional "come to Jesus" moment thrown in for a particularly awful offense. And then one of you will describe a correction as being where you simply invade the dog's space, and/or block his reward (sheep) and tell him off, and I remember that I'm reading a Border Collie board.

 

There are some tough, hard Shepherds out there who can take a strong correction without so much as batting an eye, but these are also the kinds of dogs who demand a lot of respect and fairness, and would bite the hell out of someone like Milan who doesn't take the time to teach a behavior before throwing in lots of meaningless corrections. And then there are the dogs he works with most, who are usually just spoiled or underexercised, and take all of Cesar's "techniques" and are too good natured to outwardly protest.

 

My problem with Milan, and some other primarily compulsion based trainers I've seen, is that they often don't take enough time to really assess the stress levels of the dogs they're working with. Milan, for all of his talk about "calm submissive" behavior, more often than not seems to end up with a dog who may be lying on its side with its tail between its legs, but who is wall-eyed and all sorts of tense. That is not a relaxed, calm dog - it's a rigid, worried dog who's doing everything it can not to invoke the wrath of "SHHHHT" or indulge in a screaming desire to kill the dog its being forced to lie next to. But as I see it, the dog hasn't actually been taught much.

 

There are few trainers who seem to actually be able to walk the fine line of compulsion-based training between liberal use of corrections and not completely squashing a dog's enthusiasm, and they are still typically more heavy-handed than I like. But even these trainers agree that you cannot correct a dog for something it hasn't yet learned, fully. I think some other people touched on something similar in another thread where they discussed the difference between giving a correction, and giving a correction while also asking for something correct, something the dog knows how to do.

 

Anyway, that's more about the technique than the man, as far as he goes I don't have any great love for him. I've discovered that I don't personally have the patience for purely positive training, but can't stomach pure compulsion either - mine is a mixed batch. But if you're going to use compulsion training, at least use it correctly. Beneath all the talk and flash, Milan just looks sloppy to my eyes. Eileen mentioned thinking dogs, and personally I don't think Milan ever ends up with a thinking dog.

 

Now that I think of it, I don't think I've even seen him say "good dog" once.

[Eileen Stein]

But even these trainers agree that you cannot correct a dog for something it hasn't yet learned, fully.

 

I have to say that we correct dogs all the time in sheepdog training for things they haven't learned fully. That's the way we communicate to the dog that he is wrong, and he learns from that (as well as from what the sheep are telling him). But it sounds like they're not "German Shepherd corrections," and they're certainly not what I would call compulsion. They're just forceful enough to communicate, "No, that's wrong" -- and that could be anything from the pressure of a small movement toward the dog to a light bop with a stick, depending on how hard/soft the dog is and how engrossed/oblivious he is. It's not painful, and it's not compulsion because we don't try to make him be right; we give the correction and then give him the freedom/opportunity to try a different way, and thereby learn.

[Eileen Stein]

Skyler, you're not a putz, you're just used to a different word usage because you're an American. I had a secretary once who became very confused, if not alarmed, when a visiting Brit offered to help her slit the post.

[bcnewe2]

I have to say that we correct dogs all the time in sheepdog training for things they haven't learned fully. That's the way we communicate to the dog that he is wrong, and he learns from that (as well as from what the sheep are telling him). But it sounds like they're not "German Shepherd corrections," and they're certainly not what I would call compulsion. They're just forceful enough to communicate, "No, that's wrong" -- and that could be anything from the pressure of a small movement toward the dog to a light bop with a stick, depending on how hard/soft the dog is and how engrossed/oblivious he is. It's not painful, and it's not compulsion because we don't try to make him be right; we give the correction and then give him the freedom/opportunity to try a different way, and thereby learn

 

I typed out this big reply but I think Eileen summed it up perfertly so I hit the delete button.

 

Hey Kristine

Mick is one of the sillest dog's I know off sheep. Just saying....

[Root Beer]

Hey Kristen! I know this was addressed to Pam, but I really enjoyed this post above:

 

She hit close to home with what I took years to become comfortable with. My style of dog training.

 

I don’t apologize for my dog training methods and will continue to use what manner I see fit at the time and need to be able to accept someone’s right to differ and not try to “make” them understand where I’m coming from. I need to be open to learning what ways others might be using and keep what works and disregarding what doesn’t work for me. I need to keep passing on what I've learned because that's the type of person I am.

 

Learning the fine art of stock dog training is my passion. I do it because I love it. The rest of the dog training I've picked up on the way is peanuts compared to the bond and enjoyment that I get from stockwork.

 

What I’ve learned over the last 9+ years of working with stockdogs is mine, I’m comfortable with it, and need no others approval for it. I will offer my advice and thoughts on different things on this list because I choose to participate in discussions on the thing I love most. But what I need to work on is accepting others opinions of me as just that. Theirs, not mine.

 

I can really relate because I feel exactly the same way about the methods that I've become comfortable with!!

 

And for me nothing compares to the bond I have experienced with Speedy in musical Freestyle. Different endeavor, but for me it has inspired that same sort of passion.

 

I'll be sticking with the methods that got him and me to where we are today with all of my present and future dogs because it is mine and I'm comfortable with it and need no others approval for it. And I enjoy passing it on, too.

 

I think that was very well said!

[FlyByNight]

I have to say that we correct dogs all the time in sheepdog training for things they haven't learned fully. That's the way we communicate to the dog that he is wrong, and he learns from that (as well as from what the sheep are telling him). But it sounds like they're not "German Shepherd corrections," and they're certainly not what I would call compulsion. They're just forceful enough to communicate, "No, that's wrong" -- and that could be anything from the pressure of a small movement toward the dog to a light bop with a stick, depending on how hard/soft the dog is and how engrossed/oblivious he is. It's not painful, and it's not compulsion because we don't try to make him be right; we give the correction and then give him the freedom/opportunity to try a different way, and thereby learn

 

Ah, see, this is actually a really good example of what I meant, and I highlighted where I think some of the critical difference is to me. I wouldn't call any of that correction so much as communication. I talk to my dogs all the time, giving them a warning "eh eh" if they are getting too rough with one another, or an "eh eh eh, eeeeaaaaasy," with my one boy if he starts to get too barky, usually accompanied by me stepping in front of him or poking my finger in his ear, just to bring him back to me before he loses his head too much. It's dialogue, it says "do something else please, something not that."

 

Correction, to me, is aversive, at the very least rather uncomfortable if not painful, and meant to make the dog remember that pain/discomfort next time. To avoid confusing and stressing him, it should be used only with the request of an action the dog already knows well. A good example is checking a dog on a long line for crittering, after asking him to "come" and he blows you off. The dog knows and responds to "come" in most situations, but in this case needs to be given a higher stimulus in order to remind him that you're there and asking him to do something. It very clearly says, "come when I call you if you want to avoid this pain next time" and it is -making- the dog do as you say.

[Samantha J]

Eileen, I believe you are quite right in your statement. As you diligently pointed out there are differences in interpretation and uses of the word "appreciate" in different cultures. That is exactly what threw me for a loop. Strange how that can happen isnt it? Sheesh, now I feel like a putz seeing it as it was initially expressed to be. Wouldnt be the first time I have been a putz either

 

 

It is strange, i could not see any reason why you would feel so offended. I would never have thought that you would think that the word *appreciate* would be offensive. I have learned something out of this thread today too. We speak the same language but we don't always have the same meaning to our words. It has made me think more about what i type now.

 

BTW - after reading Eileen's post i want to make sure i am taken the right way in my comments on here.

 

When i brought all of mum24dog post down to comment i was actually bringing it down to comment reguarding the fact that i don't personally like the use of the collars etc. Also from my observations although i have never been to any US country, you have a different attitude to them in general to over here. Again it is just an observation i have.

I stand corrected if i am wrong on that one, i definately did not assume that everyone is the same though. In my next comment about us all reading things differently i did put we all have different opinions and that includes people from the same country, any country. Over here we are just the same as anywhere else. Some people believe in choke chains and some don't etc. Me being one of the later of course.

 

I also brought her comment down as the part i mostly agreed with was the part about the collars and hurting the dog's.

 

I hope i am understood correctly, i don't always come across as i am thinking or rather typing it.

[mbc1963]

And vis versa, I do not see how you can train a pet dog, or an elementry school kid for that matter , without some corrections. There are simply things that are far more rewarding for the dog/kid to do than any human/parent provided reward.

 

It's rather cruel if you think about it, to raise a dog in a marshmellow world then the minute life gets important (i.e. it has greater reward than treats, please or thank you stuff) you then back up and do corrections like aggressively blocking him off his sheep (and that is a correction). Sort of like a kid who goes though life in a positive-only way and ...the kid just grows up and gets a job and has to do what he's supposed to just because. No treats offered. Just do it, or you are fired.

 

...It's almost as if, in many cases that corrections are feared by parents and by dog trainers. That they cannot control themselves if they give in and give one. So they go to other extremes. It isn't really about the kids or the dogs...it's about the parents and the trainers.

 

Amen! When I first got my dog, my behaviorist asked me, "Do you think you can be consistent, firm, and disciplined with him?" I laughed and replied that I teach 8th grade, and that's all I do all day. I have to say... I think all the social mammals share some common traits, and the skills set I use in my classroom is directly applicable to dog training.

 

Good teachers walk in the first day and build relationships at the same time they establish themselves as classroom leaders. All too frequently, new teachers come in and try to show the kids that they're "cool," by letting them get away with too much. Within months, predictably, the "cool" teachers end up with classrooms that are out of control and unmanageable. Ditto with parents of small children and owners of dogs: those who don't establish both strong relationships and leadership end up with serious problems.

 

Not to stray too far from dog training, but I do think a huge problem that's hit western cultures is the notion of parenting as friendship and perpetual happiness. First and foremost, it has to be leadership - and that often disallows friendship. Leadership also implies that one is able to communicate to her charges both correct actions and incorrect actions. Seems as though many parents (and dog owners?) don't want their charges to experience a single moment of displeasure. But experiencing displeasure - learning the natural consequences of bad choices - is part of growing up and becoming an adult. Business owners have been complaining that their young hires can't take a single step in their job without requiring immediate PRAISE for what they've done. For me, the praise is that I get my next paycheck and get to continue eating for another two weeks!

 

I do agree with Cesar's reaction when he picked up and moved a small dog who was barking and biting at him and the son. The "mother" was upset because the dog didn't like being picked up and moved - and Cesar was incredulous that the "mother" would allow the dog to bite her own CHILD (and give serious displeasure) but didn't want Cesar to create the far lesser displeasure to the dog! I experience the same thing as a teacher: parents don't want to make the child to experience the displeasure of losing their cell phones, or IM privileges, or WIIs... so they allow the child to end up with the far more serious displeasure of staying back in 8th grade, or flunking out of high school!

 

I consider myself a "positive" dog trainer, but I do use a deep voiced "no" to correct Buddy when he's doing a behavior I don't like. I also use my body to block him and direct his motion when I need to. I consider that all part of our "conversation:" I use the happy words and positive reinforcements to tell him when he's doing what he needs to, but I do think I need other words and body motions to tell him when he's NOT doing something right. My aversives are pretty wimpy compared to pinch collars and leash tugs, but they are aversives! I think any trainer or parent needs them!

 

Mary

[Root Beer]

It's dialogue, it says "do something else please, something not that."

 

Correction, to me, is aversive, at the very least rather uncomfortable if not painful, and meant to make the dog remember that pain/discomfort next time.

 

This is a fantastic distinction!

 

I get the impression that sometimes people get the idea that those of us who work within the positive only framework never have that dialogue with our dog, and that everything is permitted to the dog at all times, and that there is no clarity or discipline (not in the punishment sense) in the training at all.

 

When I say that I train without corrections, I mean exactly what you define here - that which is uncomfortable, if not painful, to the dog, and meant to make the dog remember the pain/discomfort the next time.

 

I think that your assessment of Milan is very insightful, as well.

[juliepoudrier]

I think the distinction is a great one. And I also think that folks who jump to conclusions that correction automatically means the second interpretation should think twice before making that assumption (I'm not saying you're doing this Kristine, but a lot of folks tend to think correction = punishment, and that's not the case). Most of us who use corrections use them in the first sense that FlybyNight stated and not the second sense. My pups are reared from day one knowing what a verbal correction is, and often verbal is all that's ever needed. The next step up is body pressure (i.e., my presence), never actually touching the dog. The only time I can think that I'd use the latter type (make them sorry) of correction as described by FlybyNight is if something's life was in danger (e.g., the dog is trying to kill the cat or a chicken), when all bets are off. Even then, though, my corrections are more loud and scary than physical, though a physical aspect does enter into it (i.e., grab the dog by the scruff and give a good shake). I never had to resort to a beating, pinch or choke or electric collars or anything else like that to get through to my dogs. FWIW. And yet I am a correction-based trainer in the sense that I allow the dog to make a choice and then correct (by voice or body pressure) if the choice is wrong and then give the dog a chance to come up with the right choice. Some would even consider that positive training since the dog is being allowed to think and make its own choices....

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

I wouldn't call any of that correction so much as communication.

 

Well, it certainly IS communication, but then so is praise. This is a corrective type of communication.

[painted_ponies]

Well, it certainly IS communication, but then so is praise. This is a corrective type of communication.

 

Well, I'll agree that praise is communication - you're letting the dog know you're pleased with what she's done - but is it constructive communication? I'm saying this because I have recently realized I was a praise junkie, and I wasn't doing my dogs any favors with that kind of behavior.

 

Yes, I did just come back from a Jack Knox clinic. Nothing like a recent convert, is there?

 

But you know, I've realized I've short-changed my dogs by thinking I had to praise them for everything they did right. In Violet's case, she found it distracting and learned to tune me out so she could get to work. How was she to know that she actually did need to listen to some part of my endless chatter? So I got the idea she was ignoring me, and that she was "sticky." Jack worked her this weekend. She went "into the zone where there's only Violet and sheep", he corrected her, got her attention, and then only told her what she needed to know - if she was right, he didn't pester her. If she was wrong, he corrected her. Then he convinced me to "tick a lock" and work her myself. That wear I'd been trying to get? She did it without a word from me.

 

But poor Faith - eeek, that sweet sensitive creature was actually trying to live up to what she thought I wanted, with all my praising and chattering to her. She thought I wanted her to be happy and by doG she set out to be the happiest dog on the planet. Tail up, eyes alight, brain unfortunately in neutral. Who has time to think when we must please Mommy by being happyhappyhappy? Until this weekend, I had no idea her tail is actually long enough to touch the ground. I'm in the process of a major restructuring of our relationship ATM. Which mostly involves my learning to shut up and stop encouraging all that "happiness." DH asked me yesterday how I'd finally taught Faith to stop jumping up and pulling like an Iditarod dog. All I did was correct her a couple of times. Haven't I corrected her about a million times in the past year for jumping up and pulling? Well, yeah, but now I've stopped chattering at her, she can finally hear the important parts.

[Janet808]

We watch The Dog Whisperer and I don't see anything wrong w/ his techniques. He always reminds me of a martial arts kind of guy...w/ his lay back dimeanor and self confidence. We've even used some of his techniques on Misty, and they really seem to work. You're right though, when you say you can't try them all, as some are for more aggressive dogs, but that's why he has his disclaimer. lol If I learn anything from Ceasar it's that dogs can read your emotions and pick up on them, just like children. If you have kids, you know puppies and kids are very similar. You have to repeat yourself over and over before it finally sinks in. LOL If I'm upset about something, Misty definitely picks up on it. You see her ears drop, her head drop and she goes inside her crate. LOL Then I feel bad, and have to tell her, I'm not mad or upset with you, and give her lots of lovin's. By this time, I feel better and so does she!