Take Some, Leave Some: Thoughts on Cesar

[mbc1963]

Hey, all,

 

I know that Cesar Millan is a heated topic on dog discussion and training forums, and I don't want to start any kind of a fight. But, I'm just watching season 2 of "The Dog Whisperer" on DVD, and while I understand the objections that lots of dog behaviorists have to some of Cesar's methods, I also think he has a very specific and personal way of dealing with dogs that works very well for him. So, I'm trying to observe his show almost as an anthropologist, watching what he does with the dogs and picking and choosing what I think will help me with my own dog.

 

The main idea I'm embracing is the idea of "energy" being transmitted to a dog. Trainers with different philosophies might call this the body language we use with our dogs. But I do very much believe that dogs read us and take on the state of mind we have. (Heck, I believe that even babies do this!) My dog can be reactive, and lately I've found myself tensing up when I see a dog off-leash ahead of us. Buddy definitely seems to be ready for a fight when I act that way - and I'm thinking that if I could train myself to respond differently, he'd respond differently. Likewise, the dogs are expected to become calm and submissive (normal dog postures instead of aggressive or excited ones) before they are able to get what they want... they have to have the right "energy." I definitely think that Buddy carries a tense energy into his meeting with other dogs - and wish I could learn how to get him to enter meetings calmly.

 

I also believe in the way Cesar"claims space" from dogs. Buddy used to bark at every sound outside - for hours it would go on. But I get in between him and the window, and guide him back to his bed with my body presence, and he very clearly understands that I'm disallowing him from being in that area and behaving that way.

 

I guess what I see when watching him is that he has a very strong instinctual "read" on dogs and how they act. I wonder if, because it comes naturally to him, he makes it look easy. I guess that's where the danger lies... because he knows what he's doing, and does some subtle things that probably aren't readable to the general public, he can get away with behaviors that might be dangerous coming from a generic pet owner?

 

What do other people think? What can we take away from watching him?

 

Mary

[mum24dog]

What do other people think? What can we take away from watching him?

 

Mary

 

How not to do it? Or how to earn a lot of money giving dangerous advice to the unsuspecting general public?

 

I'd recommend first reading something on canine body language (Turid Rugaas is a good start) and then watching CM with the sound off. What he says is happening is often far from the truth.

 

Sorry, but flooding, bullying and punishing scared dogs has no place in my training philosophy. For "calm submissive" read "shut down" and in the worst cases "in a state of learned helplessness".

 

Have you seen the episode of South Park where he tries it on Cartman?

 

He's very convincing if you only listen to the words. Remember he is not a behaviourist or a dog trainer. He is just a showman with peculiar ideas of his own which fly in the face of current understanding of dog behaviour.

 

If he's so good at reading dogs, how come he gets bitten?

 

Anyone who needs a gimmicky title like "Dog Whisperer" or "Dog Listener" is to be avoided in my book.

 

The odd sensible thing he says like exercise dog out (not exhaust it on a treadmill) and, as you mention, keep calm so as not to pass on you anxiety to your dog you could get from any reputable person in the field.

 

Pam

[JohnLloydJones]

Trainers with different philosophies might call this the body language we use with our dogs.

I make no claim to being a trainer, but I do know that dogs (especially BCs) excel at reading us. It's also true that the more you are around dogs, the more you learn (often unconsciously) how to use body language to communicate with your dog.

 

I guess what I see when watching him is that he has a very strong instinctual "read" on dogs and how they act. I wonder if, because it comes naturally to him, he makes it look easy. I guess that's where the danger lies... because he knows what he's doing, and does some subtle things that probably aren't readable to the general public, he can get away with behaviors that might be dangerous coming from a generic pet owner?

I've never seen him, but yes, I believe you have a point there. I know that my wife is completely oblivious to the way that Senneca and I communicate. From what I understand, Cesar Milan is a showman, who is more interested in impressing viewers with his skills than revealing his secrets.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't have cable so I've only been able to watch some of his stuff on You Tube. I can see why he's popular. He has a very similar effect on dogs as Jack Knox and probably many other similar herding trainers I know and have seen, who simply correct inappropriate behavior and leave the dog to work out what's right.

 

I think he takes away too much freedom and you could end up with a very tense dog (ahem, I'll be posting on that in the training section shortly). With a problem dog in the wrong hands, the dog could end up taking advantage again as the problem is merely masked, not solved in such cases. He tends to get in the dog's face a lot and use a really short leash, where I'd be increasing distance and giving the dog room to think about what I'm asking from it.

 

And finally, he deals with a lot of dogs with really dangerous behaviors, and I personally don't think it's responsible to show people the TV version of working through these issues. What seems so straightforward on TV is totally not, in any respect - much has been scripted, and much left out, and much rehearsed and run through repeated takes. Consider this. Watch a show and watch for a time when the camera angle does what we call "reverse" - ie, you were looking over person B's shoulder and now you are looking at person B over top of person A. You are so used to it that you probably don't see it unless you are looking for it. Each different angle that is used - ie, over A, over B, wide left, wide right, maybe a wide over A and B - that is a seperate take, unless there is some way to hide the camera covering one of the other angle shots (but that's almost impossible because lighting has to be set up too usually every time you move the camera).

 

So, that's not a natural environment for training by any means. What goes on is really not representative of real life (hence the vast irony of the term "reality TV").

 

Working trainers use many of the same much-despised methods (correcting through fear behaviors, flooding, and what I guess would be called bullying), they return a great deal of freedom to the dog which results in increased thinking, confidence, and trust - rather than learned helplessness.

 

I believe that if Milan came and watched some of the greats in North America train sheepdogs with similar methods - Tommy Wilson, Scot Glen, the Knoxes (just to name a few, don't be offended if your fav isn't in there - these are ones I've watched the most) - anyway, if he watched them carefully he might come away with a more consistent method. In terms of training careers, he's awfully new still (and therefore in my book shouldn't be on TV giving advice, but whatever). So I don't write him off permanently

[KJ]

I have watched it and it makes me so nervous! He's so provacative. Having an aggressive dog (I called Cesar, way back when but they would only see clients in LA area-got lucky). So to watch him push and force these dogs into reactivity then submission makes me shutter. It's against everything I have learned thus far. And if I put my dog in the situation of some of those dogs---I just see it would be blood shed.

So...he should NOT be on TV. The information is too off course. I echo what Pam said.

 

However being a watcher/fan of the crazy powerful world of marketing, its pretty brilliant...as is the Ginzu knife and pills to make things longer or whatever other things that are heavily marketed/created. It'a all perception.

[mum24dog]

he deals with a lot of dogs with really dangerous behaviors

 

Working trainers use many of the same much-despised methods

 

Does he really deal with truly dangeropus dogs or do you believe him because he wants to exaggerate the situation?

I've seen dogs that he has claimed are dangerous when the dog's body language is screaming the exact opposite.

 

What's the failure rate of working trainers who treat their dogs like that? How many do they manage to break before they find one that can withstand such treatment? Sure, when they find the one it will probably be a good dog, but what of the ones screwed up along the way?

 

It's a question of degree, though, as in all things. A firm hand with a hard headed working dog that may be displaying a relatively mild fear response is very different from the behaviour of CM towards his victims.

 

Pam

[mbc1963]

Sorry for my quote system - I can't figure out how to do this piece by piece.

 

"For "calm submissive" read "shut down" and in the worst cases "in a state of learned helplessness. "

 

Well, in some episodes, I do see terrified dogs as a result of what Cesar does - the Great Dane who won't walk on linoleum is a classic example. I look at that dog and don't see "cure," I just see "scared out of his mind."

 

But... in other cases, I see very excitable, reactive dogs who, after working with Cesar, are lying on the ground, with completely relaxed postures: relaxed faces, loose commisures in that "happy/smile" look, loose shoulders and backs. (I'm pretty adept at reading doggie body language, and have read all the McConnell, Rugaas, Clothier, and Donaldson.) Maybe what I see as working is the calming influence of having a strong, confident human who knows how to set up a calm walk, rather than a fearful human who transmits his or her nervousness and "need" to the dog?

 

"Have you seen the episode of South Park where he tries it on Cartman?"

 

Yes, and I think it's hilarious! I think most of my problem students are the result of innefectual, "scaredy cat" parents who are so afraid of hurting their child's spirit that they never give any rules, boundaries, or limitations - resulting in kids who don't want to be in charge, but are in charge, and run around bullying adults! (Cesar and Super Nanny do very similar things!)

 

"If he's so good at reading dogs, how come he gets bitten?"

 

But, don't most dog trainers get bitten at some point? I'm not defending Cesar, necessarily... but the great, calm, positive-reinforcement behaviorist I use has mentioned missing body language cues here and there, resulting in a few bites. I would think that being in this business, that's a risk of the trade? Are there people who handle situations right 100% of the time?

 

"The odd sensible thing he says like exercise dog out (not exhaust it on a treadmill) and, as you mention, keep calm so as not to pass on you anxiety to your dog you could get from any reputable person in the field."

 

Yeah - exactly!

 

Interesting to hear your point of view.

 

Mary

[Skyler]

His methods are highly debated and many believe that he has set back training 20 years through his show. I dont particularly choose to debate his methods and prefer to stay out of that one. However, prior to each episode it clearly states that these techniques should not be attempted at home and that you should consult a dog trainer or behaviorist first.

 

To me this is sound advice and the debate stops there. If individuals are not educated in dog training in the first place there is no room for discussion and certainly should not be using these methods when one has no real clue what they are doing. So my belief is one should take what they want if they are already suited to be training dogs, otherwise leave it as only TV entertainment.

[OffTopic]

I think some of his thinking is sound and some of it is dangerous. My dogs aren't wild animals. They are domesticated. Wild animal pack rules do not apply to my spoiled rotten house pets. And if I were to try the physical dominance methods with my somewhat aggressive dog, Max? I'd get bitten.

I'm afraid that people do try his methods for dealing with aggression and only make matters worse for themselves and the dogs.

 

I also believe in the way Cesar"claims space" from dogs. Buddy used to bark at every sound outside - for hours it would go on. But I get in between him and the window, and guide him back to his bed with my body presence, and he very clearly understands that I'm disallowing him from being in that area and behaving that way.

It worked for me, too. Max was the same way.....at any noise or movement....and he would not stop barking for hours. I dreaded meter reading day. I had tried every other method I could find and none of them worked.

First time I got between him and the window/door and spread out my arms and said "I've got it" in a calm tone of voice, he quit barking. I was stunned. And now that's all I have to do. Soon as he starts to bark, I get between him and the door or window and tell him "I've got it". And he stops. I'm still stunned by it.

 

I do think the dogs should look to the human as the one in charge, but not because the dog is afraid to challenge our leadership.

They should obey us because we have all this cool stuff.....like soft beds and warm houses and food and water and toys....and we're willing to share it with them as long as they follow the rules.

I don't like his physical methods. The "biting" at the dog with your hands. Flipping a dog on it's back to show dominance.

And I freakin' hate that "shhhttt" noise.

 

I don't think he's evil incarnate, but I do think it's a dangerous show because the average viewer will try to duplicate his methods, even though there is a disclaimer warning against it. I'm proof of that, right? I tried the claiming space thing. It worked and didn't harm the dog, but someone is going to try and flip a snarling dog and get seriously bitten.

[painted_ponies]

And I freakin' hate that "shhhttt" noise.

 

Do tell - what "shhhhhttt" noise? What's that supposed to accomplish?

 

I've only ever watched one episode of TDW - it was the one with the "Marley and Me" family. Who finally learned not to buy a dog from a BYB apparently but not much else.

 

But I've been making that noise all weekend, to encourage Faith on to her sheep. What does CM use it for? By your reaction, I'm guessing it's not for encouragement?

[Lenajo]

I think you can take some/leave some with *any* trainer.

 

That said, I've had more success with my dogs in general day to day as well as herding in the last year...using what I took from my herding trainers and from CM than any other place. That is....calm positive energy, control your voice and your body, know what you want, put pressure on as needed, but release it when not, treat the dog as a dog - not a human, and make sure that first and foremost you meet their basic needs - exercise and structure - before you hand out the cookies and the huggies.

 

I can say this after I've been to APDT's yearly conference and a Clicker Expo this year. All of which offered some of what I needed, but nothing got to the heart of it as quickly and as effectively as those things that the good herding trainers, and yes CM's methods, did.

 

And yes, my dogs are happy, well loved and they know it. They aren't afraid of of me, and we enjoy each other's company.

 

If you've got another method that works for you, go for it.

 

CM is a TV show folks...so yes, of course it's showmanship and hoopla. And Rebecca could be right that the public doesn't need to see the in-between stuff (because they can't do it without getting hurt most of the time) but maybe they *do*. Maybe they need to see that if they take on that "iffy" dog, it may take more than just clicks, treats, and love to turn it around. That Fluffem's is a *dog* no matter how cute she is, and if encouraged and allowed to be a beastly brat she will bite, snap, and run you out of the house.

 

I think the thing that has kept CM going as long as he has is that people want training that works (and I see far too many trainers and behaviorists for pet dogs who do not offer that in any way, shape or form) and he never has anything negative to say about other training methods.

 

So while he keeps going on TV and makes $$....I'd don't pay $$ to go to seminars like some of the positive training proponents who spend 90% of the seminar telling you who not to train like, but not how to train.

 

In that regard, the positive trainers could learn something from him - about public relations!

[mum24dog]

But, don't most dog trainers get bitten at some point? Mary

 

Only if they push a dog too far or misread it - as CM does. He brings it on himself by his behaviour rather than making a genuine error of judgement.

 

Our collie was a biter when we got him. He would bite anyone who physically tried to make him do anything he didn't want to do.

 

Did I string him up? Alpha roll him? Of course not. Collie or not, I'm smarter than him and it wasn't hard to avoid situations where he felt the need to bite and to reward cooperation.

Does he bite now? No.

Does he do as I ask (yes, ask)? Yes he does. Sometimes we get a little adolescent show of reluctance but he does it because he knows I'll get my own way in the end.

Is our relationship undamaged? Yes.

 

(I can't do multiple quotes either.)

 

CM's treatment didn't work on Cartman in the long run, did it?

 

One of my major gripes about CM is that he confidently asserts that what he does is what dogs do to each other when it just ain't so.

 

Pam

[Lenajo]

"The odd sensible thing he says like exercise dog out (not exhaust it on a treadmill) and, as you mention, keep calm so as not to pass on you anxiety to your dog you could get from any reputable person in the field."

 

I really really appreciated his education to the public on the dog park issues, ie. that the park is not where to take a hyper, underexercised, out of control dog. That you should exercise the dog first, to take the edge off and then bring it to the park after.

 

Too many people use dog parks as an excuse not to exercise their dog.

 

Also loved that he pointed out how a little dog can be the aggressor in dog park fight situations as well.

[Lenajo]

CM's treatment didn't work on Cartman in the long run, did it?

 

somehow, I don't think comparing the logic of a TV show you apparently hate, to a cartoon which many also hate, is a great analogy of the value of what is seen on either.

[mum24dog]

That said, I've had more success with my dogs in general day to day as well as herding in the last year...using what I took from my herding trainers and from CM than any other place. That is....calm positive energy, control your voice and your body, know what you want, put pressure on as needed, but release it when not, treat the dog as a dog - not a human, and make sure that first and foremost you meet their basic needs - exercise and structure - before you hand out the cookies and the huggies.

 

I think the thing that has kept CM going as long as he has is that people want training that works

 

But the problem is that what he says and what he does are worlds apart.

Haven't seen much evidence of him handing out huggies - plenty of pressure though.

His explanations of what is happening often couldn't be further from the truth.

I've learned exactly the same message that a dog is a dog and consistent boundaries are needed from others without the abusive part.

 

People want what they see as quick fixes, that's all. If they knew anything about dogs they wouldn't need his "help" in the first place.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

somehow, I don't think comparing the logic of a TV show you apparently hate, to a cartoon which many also hate, is a great analogy of the value of what is seen on either.

 

Did you not see it then?

CM's methods demonstrated as apparently shutting Cartman's bad behaviour down temporarily only for it to resurface once he had left. Just what many respected people in the dog behaviour world are saying.

Seems a very fair analogy to me.

The Simpsons had a similar episode about the fallout of abusive training a few years ago.

 

Pam

[Lenajo]

People want what they see as quick fixes, that's all. If they knew anything about dogs they wouldn't need his "help" in the first place.

 

Guess I better get back in my dog house then; at least until I'm hard headed enough to think I'll never need to learn anything else.

 

Did you not see it then?

CM's methods demonstrated as apparently shutting Cartman's bad behaviour down temporarily only for it to resurface once he had left. Just what many respected people in the dog behaviour world are saying.

Seems a very fair analogy to me.

 

No I don't "see it". I just see a TV show, watch and ponder and try...just like I do after watching any other dog trainer.

 

If the show bothers you so much, turn it off and watch the Simpsons or SP. Their logic seems to appeal to you greatly.

[OffTopic]

Do tell - what "shhhhhttt" noise? What's that supposed to accomplish?

He uses it as a correction. Or rather, as a distraction followed by a correction.

 

And someone in my house was ignoring the "do not try these methods at home" disclaimer.

If he wanted Finn to sit, he'd snap his fingers and do the "shhhttt" noise.

If he wanted Finn to calm down while putting the collar and lead on, he'd snap and do the "shhhttt" noise.

If he wanted Finn to heel on lead, he'd snap and do the "shhhttt" noise.

Etc, etc, etc.

I think it's finally dawned on him that real words are necessary (especially "good boy"), but for a while I thought I was going to lose my mind from that noise.

[MaggieDog]

Honestly, all the "good" things I can take away from CM were promoted by other trainers long ago. After all, I remember "A tired puppy is a good puppy" from waaaay before CM became known.

 

I'm a clicker trainer. I'm currently teaching 5 basic obedience classes (about 35 people with dogs total) and people are amazed by how smart their "dumb" dogs are turning out to be and how quickly the clicker method gets results. Some of them have also been amazed by how differently their dog acts with me on the other end of the leash - I'm confident and relaxed and the dog picks up on that, no "tsst" or hand biting needed. Yes I set rules and boundaries for the dog, but I also don't push them over their threshold and so far, so good. I talk to all my students about being reliable and consistent so their dog knows that they are someone they can trust, I guess that could be construed as similar to some things CM says, but I came up with my methods and advice before I'd watched a single episode of his show.

 

I've been working with problem dogs, including my own, for almost 8 years now and I have yet to be bitten; doesn't mean it won't happen ever, but I do take pride in that statistic.

 

I did have one student ask me what I thought about Cesar and I think what my boss said to the student after I replied was a great summary: "Asking Erin what she thinks of Cesar Millan is like asking a professional Crime Scene Investigator what they think of CSI: Miami."

[Skyler]

but for a while I thought I was going to lose my mind from that noise.

 

 

 

You should have went up to whomever was doing it all the time, poked them in the neck and said, "SHHTTTTTTTT!!!"

[sandra s.]

After watching some of his stuff on youtube, I have two different opinions of him:

 

I think he often does something good for the people he tries to help. Some of them appear to have had all the "spunk" civilised out of them - the "my chihuahua won't let me on the couch, what do I do" types - and I think he tries to give them a little bit of that power (or "energy") back which is a good thing.

 

But I don't agree with his view of dogs at all. Yes, exercise is important, but whereas he describes the dog as a "traveller" or something similar, I think "explorer" would be a much better word. Yes, they roam their territory - checking things out. As far as I can see, that's the point of roaming in the first place. Why does he miss that part altogether? They do not blindly plod along after their Great Big Alpha like he wants them to do on his walks. They might do that if they're drop dead tired or scared of their surroundings, but never on a normal stroll. They cannot even sniff the ground on those short leashes. No, I wouldn't let a dog pull me all over the road either - that's where the "spunk" should kick in - but that doesn't mean that I have to pull the dog around just to prove that I'm the bigger beast.

 

There aren't too many things that a dog can do that he doesn't try to explain as "dominance" and that part I really disagree with. There are robot dogs on the market, so why not get one of those if you want a dog that never takes the initiative in anything? Grrr.

 

I'd say he does have something worth sharing with people, but his obsession with dominance ruins it for me.

 

Out of the few "experts" I've read stuff by, I really admire Mrs Rugaas. I love how she emphasises the peace loving nature of dogs. I cannot read her books without feeling deeply ashamed for the times I lost my temper.

[Sasha's Mom]

My family was visiting for the week, and it seemed like there was constant "shhhttt" - ing going on. My father watches the show and enjoys it. My sister has used some of his techniques. I mostly stayed out of it and redirected them to the upcoming "we have to get the house ready to sell" discussion, which is going to be interesting with this my pack and a bunch of fosters, now 3 BCs, a GSD, a lab/setter, a lab/rottie, and a -get this- bloodhound. I've never been around hounds, so a full blooded, full grown, 90lb bloodhound has been quite the (drooly) experience.

 

I don't think dear dad quite gets that Zoe is still a puppy (and a BC puppy at that...), and is going to follow the pack dynamic more than a "shhhttt." Either way, it was marginally entertaining. I did introduce my grumpy alpha male to a foster using his walk together method, but the new guy is pretty submissive, so it worked out just fine. Just didn't want to try to pull two 80lb males apart if something went wrong.

 

I've seen a couple episodes, but don't go out of my way. This is an interesting discussion.

Danielle

[Root Beer]

I know that my own position on Milan, according to what I have seen and read, his underlying training philosophy is pretty much the opposite of my own. His philosophy does not fit in with the role that my dogs have in my life.

 

I see a dog, first and foremost, as a very complex individual creature with a brain, likes, dislikes, abilities, talents, and flaws of his or her own. Some might try to throw the "anthropomorphic" label at me for that, but when it comes down to it, a dog is not a robotic automoton that simply needs to be "programmed" a certain way in order to be controlled.

 

So, when I choose the trainers that I look to for information on training methods for my dogs, I seek out those who very obviously share that same mentality.

 

If my dog is wild at the end of the leash, my goal is not to quash the behavior at all costs, but to take the time and effort to teach the dog what I want him to do. If my dog is counter surfing, my goal is not to stop it at once or else, but to teach the dog what I want him to do. If my dog is jumping up on people my goal is not to communicate the message of "wrong" to him, but to teach him what I want him to do.

 

In answer to the original question, yes, Milan does use some techniques that can be effective and are, in some contexts, benign. At the same time, those particular techniques - and much more - can be found in the writings of those whose philosophies are more in line with my own. People like Leslie McDevitt, Patricia McConnell, Melissa Alexander, Pam Dennison, Morgan Spector, Karen Pryor, etc. They are not all "behaviorst" type trainers, but for me training is about much more than that.

 

To me, looking to Cesar Milan for training techniques would be like going to work at McDonalds to learn cooking skills. Yes, I would learn some good and useful things, and I would be able to prepare some food. But if I went to a good culinary institute I would learn how to prepare more varied meals that are more healthy and are just better overall. The culinary institute would require more work and time, but in the end there is no real comparison.

[mbc1963]

Shhhhht!

 

Yes, I agree that the noise is a pain. However, Cesar pointed out in one episode that he uses the noise his mother used to use on him when he was a kid. My siblings and I tend to use a firm, growly "ahh ahh" noise with dogs and kids, because that's the sound our mother used to use when we were about to put our fingers into the electrical outlet.

 

One woman who walks near me sometimes has a keeshond mix and a chow mix. Both dogs are fairly tuggy, barky walkers - if another dog is near them, their excitement builds into loud barking and occasional snapping at each other. This woman has been going around with the dogs, tugging their leashes and saying "shhhht," for a couple years now... but as far as I can tell, the dogs haven't stopped the excited barking. So obviously there's a piece missing there!

 

Mary

[MaggieDog]

Speaking of the "tsst" or "shhht" noises, I've actively started teaching my dogs that those noises mean "get all revved up and act silly".

 

There's one person that I sometimes work with that subscribes whole hog to the CM techniques and since I don't want her correcting my dogs without my permission, I'm deliberately working to make sure that if she does try the noise thing with them, neither of them give two hoots. I can avoid a confrontation with this person and my dogs avoid any potential negative side effects from having a virtual stranger "correcting" them. (not to mention that it'll be sort of funny in my mind when her techniques result in the exact opposite behavior of that she was seeking!)