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Cesar's method - disagreement and discussion


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OBTW I do not believe anyones dog on this board would be "dead" if CM had trained the dog using his methods. Maybe if they themselves tried to trian their dogs using his methods without fully understanding them though, maybe.

 

Agreed.

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CM is pretty neat and I believe he has a better understanding of dogs then most people, even some of those on this board. Some people will just never be good enough dog trainers/handlers to use his methods and not screw a dog up.

 

Umm I take exception to this statement - I'm sure I could use Cesar's methods just fine, but I don't because I believe that they do more harm than good and I have better methods for acheiving my goals.

 

OBTW I do not believe anyones dog on this board would be "dead" if CM had trained the dog using his methods. Maybe if they themselves tried to trian their dogs using his methods without fully understanding them though, maybe.

 

I don't think the methods themselves would've killed Maggie, but her reaction to them likely would've resulted to a very reactive dog and a possible bite - and depending on the person bitten, a euthanasia order; End result = death.

 

I tried corrections based training and it made my dog worse, even when applied by a trainer with 20 years of experience. I choose not to use those types of methods for that reason, not because I'm some wimpy, permissive trainer. I've been there, done that and don't want to repeat it.

 

BTW, I'm not all +R - I use negative punishment a fair amount and just yesterday reacted and positively punished my dog - which I deeply regret btw as it did nothing but release my frustration and freak my dog out more.

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BTW, I'm not all +R - I use negative punishment a fair amount and just yesterday reacted and positively punished my dog - which I deeply regret btw as it did nothing but release my frustration and freak my dog out more.

 

I hate when I do that. I feel so bad, I just wanna kick myself in the butt.

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OBTW I do not believe anyones dog on this board would be "dead" if CM had trained the dog using his methods. Maybe if they themselves tried to trian their dogs using his methods without fully understanding them though, maybe.

 

Edited:

 

I don't think that you really have any idea whatsoever what the affect of Milan's methods would have been on my dog, even if Milan himself had applied them.

 

This reply was not meant to express anger, nor taking the matter personally. As one of the folks who stated that my dog might be dead if Milan's methods were used on him, my response to the above is: no - even if Milan's methods had been applied by Milan himself, this particular dog would have most likely have become fear aggressive and ended up being put down.

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Here's my take on this discussion:

 

I have a sensitive dog who is very fear aggressive when it comes to strangers. He has bitten...luckily it was someone who understood the situation. Before this time, I recognized the actions of Pache and was working w/ him using positive reinforcements, but really getting nowhere fast. Then the incident happened and I KNEW I had to do something different before it happened again or got so out of control that I would have no choice but to PTS. And THAT was NOT an option in my opinion. I had been watching CM for quite some time and enjoyed his shows, but due to the sensitivity that BC's so often seem to have, and quite frankly taking alot of advice from those of you who have sensitive dogs and use strictly all positive,I opted not to try his methods at that time. (BTW, I am in no way, shape or form blaming any of you for what my dog would or would not do while using this technique...at the time that is how I felt that I should train my dogs.)

 

After the biting incident, I started using some of the methods like the Psst, and the hand biting to get Pache's attention and make him understand that I'm in charge, and the stature exercises that CM gives people to use to boost their self confidence. Once Pache got that message, he has been a totally different dog. Yes he is still fearful of strangers, but now the situation is under control and I'm progressing more w/ desensitizing him to his fears.

 

Now with all of that being said, I realize that I was not Leader in Pache's eyes at the time that he bit. He picked up on my being wimpy w/ his discipline and used it. I did not trust my dog's actions while using all positive reinforcement methods, therefore why should he trust me to be protector and leader. Maybe it is CM's methods that work or maybe its just that he gives these people a sense of self reassurance that they can train their dogs w/ whatever problem they are having. Pache is really more self assured (not 100% though) and he RESPECTS me more now than he ever did using all positive. As a matter of fact, he respects me even more than he does my DH, and he's supposed to be DH's dog. He is not afraid of me. I am no longer afraid of his actions, although I do respect what he is capable of doing w/ his teeth.

 

An example of how well he is doing...I used to have to put him out back or in my room when someone would come to the door, and not allow him contact. A few weeks back, the dogs were inside and Navi was in the back room w/ me while Pache was lying on the sofa. A friend of my dad's (who is btw afraid of dogs) came inside w/ my dad and I didn't even know it until I came into the kitchen and seem him sitting at the island bar. I looked at Pache, then looked at the friend, etc. and asked "Pache let you in w/o even so much as a bark?" After I walked into the room, Pache even took the notion to walk up to the friend for a head scratch. Now I don't know about you, but to me that is a definite improvement. In turn its these kind of milestones that boost my confidence more and more so that I can become the kind of leader that I need to be for my dog.

 

ETA: I think one of the things I like most about CM is that he sets rules and limitations, but at the same time allows dogs to exhibit dog behavior. Nowdays alot of us humans tend to try to take the animal out of the animal.

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There is a pamphlet on the Border Collie Club site that is called "Living with a Border Collie". It points out that Border Collies will act submissive and sensitive in order to manipulate their owners. I have raised and trained a number of Border Collies for stock work in the last 10 years and have had only one that was truly soft to the point he could barely stand a correction. I have trained a number of dogs that were raised as pets and acting submissive to keep control is a common behavior to them all. I am amazed at the number of sensitive, soft dogs owned by people on this board and propose that most of them are simply manipulating their owners.

 

Kevin Brannon

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I just got home from a nice dog weekend. I've read most of what been written here this morning. It's long and very personal.

My 2cents is…. to each their own. I use lots of different methods. I've even given in to my own ego and call them "my way" of training. What works for one is what that person should be doing. Not bashing others for trying different ways.

 

I can't add anything more to this discussion than already has been added. It's a nice one to read because there are so many different opinions. I will be using some ideas and not others but now I have more to think about!

 

And I love the statement that Cesar beats his wife......I thought of the old game of post office. Where one person says something to someone then that person tells someone else. By the time it gets back to the original person, you have, he beats his wife, kills dogs, saves dogs, cheats on his wife, beats his kids....it's endless!

Humor is a great thing! So glad Eileen set us straight on him beating his wife, kids and the dogs! :rolleyes::D

 

BTW... I like Cesar and Elileen's humor!

 

Kristen

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Nowdays alot of us humans tend to try to take the animal out of the animal.

 

I whole heartedly agree and will add that not only do we try to take the animal out of the animal, we don't take responsibility for the problems we create and just assume it's a problem dog and move on. When I was little, if the dog growled at me because I was disturbing its sleep, my parents reprimanded ME, now the dog would be rehomed. In these days, people want to invest zero and get a huge return which is why I appreciate someone like CM, who is becoming a household name, constantly repeating the same things, consistency, exercise, and it's a dog! If you put in the work, you will get a result.

 

I don't think his methods will work on all dogs but I think a lot of dogs would not be re-homed if people just consistently exercised their dogs and became benevolent leaders instead of assuming that dogs think like people and thus should be treated as such. I'm not sure what has made CM such a national success when he's not really imparting anythiing beyond simplistic notions and his own obvious leadership qualities. Maybe it's because it seems like a quick fix and that notion in itself can be dangerous and misguided for some people and their dogs....but then for many, a little exercise and the problems disappear.

 

If I had to get completely off the fence with regard to CM, I'd probably fall more in his favor than against, simply because I do think he reads people well and works with what he is given. I have an inkling that he does much better with the dogs he takes to his camp because it seems he takes the pressure off versus applying it so strongly in the at home sessions.

 

But who knows, I know that I would not roll my fearful dog nor would I "touch bite" him if he's growling but nor would I use a treat as a distraction. It's all about balance, which is why so many people here can have strong emotions because they're better equipped to know their dog than most people who are clueless.

 

Maria

 

Editing to add, for a giggle, that I'm glad the "he beats his wife" was cleared up because when I read it, I googled to see if there was somethiing I had missed in mainstream news....

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There is a pamphlet on the Border Collie Club site that is called "Living with a Border Collie". It points out that Border Collies will act submissive and sensitive in order to manipulate their owners. I have raised and trained a number of Border Collies for stock work in the last 10 years and have had only one that was truly soft to the point he could barely stand a correction. I have trained a number of dogs that were raised as pets and acting submissive to keep control is a common behavior to them all. I am amazed at the number of sensitive, soft dogs owned by people on this board and propose that most of them are simply manipulating their owners.

 

Kevin Brannon

 

Here I thought that when my fearful Border Collie was cringing in the corner shaking violently, it was because he is experiencing fear due to an involuntary chemical reaction in the brain that takes place when a threat (real or not) is perceived. And here it was all a magnificent plot to manipulate his owner! Isn't it interesting that he has learned to push his tail between his legs and blow his anal sacs to manipulate me? And he has learned how to shut down completely and not even take a very high value treat just to manipulate me! Maybe he is actually the one that beats Cesar's wife - he has just cleverly made it look like it was Cesar!

 

Honestly, if he is such a mastermind that he can fake such a clear fearful response, I am very happy to train him any way he wants to be trained. Positive training works for him. He's happy. I'm having fun training him. If that's his master plan, I'm willing to go with it.

 

Edited to add: The tone of this reply is not meant to be angry or accusatory. I was being sarcastic, which I understand is a poor device to use on a message board.

 

What I was trying to say here, in plain talk is: I disagree with Mr. Brannon's position. My disagreement is based on my own experiences with my fearful dog, and on research that I have done into the causes of fear in dogs, which has been most enlightening and insightful. Based on that information, I would like to respectfully challenge the position that most soft dogs are trying to manipulate their owners, in a friendly manner!

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Some v interesting posts

My 2p worth

I think it takes all types of ways to train

Slightly off topic - I am a driving instructor and training people to drive you have to use positive and negative

"that was really good, fantastic look how good you did that even when it was scary" "SLOW DOWN RIGHT NOW, LOOK AT THE ROAD!!"

Its the same with most dogs

Sometimes they need a bit of fuss (sometimes) sometimes they need you to laugh at them and sometimes the voice of god

But always they need to trust that you are doing things for their own good - you are the boss and you will protect them and they dont have to worry about looking after you - you are the boss

 

I havent seen much of this guys stuff - but I think the major problem is that he just does it on tv with problem dogs

People follow with a dog who isnt much of a problem - its just the owner dosent know how to train properly, then you get a poor nervous dog too scared to react incase something else bad happens

Nothing wrong with jumping at a loud noise - I do it myself, then you realise nothing bad has happend to you, put on a goofy grin and get on with your day

I would be a nutcase if I was punished for jumping

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Rootbear, It has been said many, many times in very many of these posts....what works for you and your dog is all that matters in the end. I may very well be wrong here and if I am I apologize ahead of time, however, I sense alot of anger on your part. It seems no matter what anyone says there is always something you "appear" to be taking personal. I am sorry you feel this way, as I believe everyone's opinion is valuable. That dosen't mean I agree with everyone's or anyone's opinion for that matter, and sometimes I just want to chastise someone for that opinion, however, on these boards I have learned over the years, that coming across like that just gets everyone on the defensive and makes for alot of hard or hurt feelings.

What was said about dogs actually manipulating people, "in my opinion", is not at all correct. However, I believe it is the word "manipulate", that I have an issue with. I do believe that , (like has been said here often and is always said by Ceasar), if a dog senses there is no "pack leadership", she/he will take over that leadership, plain and simple, by whatever means works for that dog. If someone choses to believe that it is deliberate manipulation of the human counterpart, so be it. As a professional trainer, I do not believe dogs manipulate, that is soley a human thing and a very good example of not seeing our dogs as dogs, but as humans with human emotions and personality traits! If you have been able to reach your dog with your training methods, or my dog with mine etc., etc., that is all that really matters. I must say I would draw the line at someone using inhumane, cruel or otherwise tortuous methods, (which I also realize is up for opinions, but I believe everyone here on these boards knows what I mean by that), and I would big time be in their face and take steps to have that dog removed from said person, in a heart beat.

I do hope you understand that I am not trying to lecture, or demeen your opinion, in any way shape or form. I do however hope that you can take or leave what others say, as fits your situation and continue with your valuable opinions that someone may be able to incorporate into their handling/training with their fur babies. Your opinions are valuable, please don't be angry. I like to think that no one on these boards is mean spirited or intending to hurt or anger anyone, in the long run. :rolleyes:

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Wow

I wrote a post like that then deleted it. I'm glad you didn't delete yours JoAnne.

Kristine,

I think your anger comes from working so hard to figure out your special dog and maybe feeling a bit of frustration in your quest to help your dog in the best way you can. You've done a fine job. No one is doubting that. Use what works for you, but always keep your eyes open to other ideas. Only you know what's best for you and yours.

Kristen

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Rootbear, It has been said many, many times in very many of these posts....what works for you and your dog is all that matters in the end. I may very well be wrong here and if I am I apologize ahead of time, however, I sense alot of anger on your part. It seems no matter what anyone says there is always something you "appear" to be taking personal.

 

No - I'm not angry. :rolleyes: My last reply after this one was sarcastic, not angry. I know that sarcasm doesn't translate well through the medium of message boards, but I simply couldn't resist that last time!!

 

The subject of fear in dogs is one that I have a lot of interest in and enthusiasm for. Having been blessed with a dog that has a fearful temperament, I have been given the opportunity to learn some really insightful things about the nature of fear. Quite frankly, the idea that a dog that is in the midst of a fearful reaction would have the ability to turn around and use that reaction to get something that he/she wants strikes me as absurd (in a somewhat humorous way).

 

But while I have a great deal of interest in the subject, I am not angry about any of the posts in this thread. My response was not intended to express anger, nor taking anything personally.

 

I am sorry you feel this way, as I believe everyone's opinion is valuable.

 

I would agree that everyone's opinion is valuable, but the nature of these boards is discussion and I enjoy going further into the discussion. Perhaps sarcasm was not the most appropriate vehicle to express my own difference of opinon with Mr. Brannon on the subject of fear vs. manipulation, but my intention was not to denigrate the value of an opinion.

 

That dosen't mean I agree with everyone's or anyone's opinion for that matter, and sometimes I just want to chastise someone for that opinion, however, on these boards I have learned over the years, that coming across like that just gets everyone on the defensive and makes for alot of hard or hurt feelings.

 

My intent was not to chastise, but to express disagreement with the position. So, if I caused anyone to feel defensive, I apologize for that. I assure you that my response was good natured. I disagree with the position completely, but my response was good natured.

 

What was said about dogs actually manipulating people, "in my opinion", is not at all correct. However, I believe it is the word "manipulate", that I have an issue with . . . As a professional trainer, I do not believe dogs manipulate, that is soley a human thing and a very good example of not seeing our dogs as dogs, but as humans with human emotions and personality traits!

 

I do, as well. I expressed that poorly, but my intention was to express that I disagree on the idea of dogs manipulating people.

 

Although I do hold that there are emotions and traits that humans and dogs share in common, the ability to deliberately seek to alter the way that the human runs his/her household is, I think, not one!!

 

I do however hope that you can take or leave what others say, as fits your situation and continue with your valuable opinions that someone may be able to incorporate into their handling/training with their fur babies. Your opinions are valuable, please don't be angry. I like to think that no one on these boards is mean spirited or intending to hurt or anger anyone, in the long run. :D

 

I certainly do take and leave quite a bit of what others say. And I'm not angry at all. No intention to hurt or anger anyone, so I will think more carefully before utilizing sarcasm in the future within this medium.

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Wow

I wrote a post like that then deleted it. I'm glad you didn't delete yours JoAnne.

Kristine,

I think your anger comes from working so hard to figure out your special dog and maybe feeling a bit of frustration in your quest to help your dog in the best way you can. You've done a fine job. No one is doubting that. Use what works for you, but always keep your eyes open to other ideas. Only you know what's best for you and yours.

Kristen

 

Ditto my reply above! No anger. A bit of vehemence - some passion for a subject that is close to my heart, perhaps, but no anger.

 

I often get in trouble for expressing things vehemently.

 

I do want to say, though, that just as those who like Milan and want those of us who don't to "open our minds" to what he has to say should keep in mind exactly what you said above - only we know what is best for our own.

 

Pretty much everyone here agrees that there are many ways to handle/train our dogs and that different ways are suitable to different dogs.

 

So . . . and I ask this question out of pure curiousity, not "taking it personal" or "anger" . . . why doesn't that same principle seem to hold true for some folks when the opinion that Cesar's methods probably would have been detrimental to our own dogs is expressed?

 

I have no problem with differing opinions - that's what makes message boards go 'round!!! :rolleyes:

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Do you know my dog? Have you spent years and countless hours working with my dog? Have you tried different things - some which have worked, and some which have failed miserably, with my dog. Do you truly understand the mental "short circuits" that my dog experiences when he is fearful?

 

I do know my dog. I have spent years and countless hours working with him. I have tried different things with him - some of which have worked, and some which have failed miserably with him. I don't truly understand the mental "short circuits" that my dog experiences when he is fearful, but I have learned how to get him back.

 

I don't think that you really have any idea whatsoever what the affect of Milan's methods would have been on my dog, even if Milan himself had applied them.

 

No offense to anyone but by some of the testimonals about their dogs reactions I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. I don't think a corporal punishment debate will follow the same lines if you throw in a kid with autism in the mix. I'm not saying your dogs have mental problems per say, but some of the testimonials do not represent a normal dogs behavior and therefore you might be correct in saying CM/negative reinforcement weren't the best for your dog although it wouldn't classify as a rebuttle of the negative/CM method of obedience training either becuase of the special circumstances with your particular canine.

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I wasn't going to get in this cuz it always ends up "my" dog this or that. I HAVE watched practically every CM episode. I like the guy and his attitude. He has NEVER insisted that he had a quick fix, nor that he could always fix a dog at the home. Have you seen the "pack" he has? All different breeds and sizes. He didn't get these from stable, good homes. These were dogs that were headed to the needle guy. The are adopted out. He has a few he keeps to help dogs that come in with specific probs that he feels these dogs can help. It works. Just with my little pack, when we brought Toby into the mix, him being a wild, TOTALLY undisciplined, unsocialized, don't know how to act around people or animals, it took no time before he was watching the other dogs and learning faster from them acceptable behaviour than I could teach! (Jackson had a thing where when I went into my room, he would jump on the bed then want to put his paws up on my shoulders for a good pet, lick, we're so happy, thing. Soon, after we got Skip, he was doing the same thing, now, guess what, so does Toby. So, his theory of dogs looking to others for proper behaviour is concrete in my book. (notice the word, "my") Where are all the dogs that are shutting down? Like I said, I have seen practically every episode. Sure, the dogs weren't happy when Cesar was making them act right, but when it showed them a few weeks later, the dog was happy and so were the owners. There was one episode where an actress had chinese crested dogs. One was nice and calm, the other was on high quality speed! The dog had SORES on her neck from the pulling she did while walking! No one could come and visit cuz the dog was so hyper! And undisciplined! Then it showed a few weeks later and the dog was walking nicely, calming down when appropriate, and was still a happy dog. And it didn't take years of begging, pleading, heres some yummy treats, to accomplish this. CM does NOT train dogs. He helps them overcome LEARNED behaviour that is not acceptable. One dog a lady had adopted was fearful of EVERYONE. She worked with mentally disabled people and she wanted the dog to go to work with her. But the dog would hide under her desk and shake! CM helped the dog learn to TRUST that the owner would keep him safe and to try to be around other people. It wasn't a miracle. It did take time and the dog did look scared to death, but it soon learned things were not nearly as bad as it thought! Sometimes from my bed, I will throw the toy into the bathroom into the tub. Jackson had no prob jumping in and getting it. Skip would go the edge, but was sure there was a monster just waiting to get him! So, I started just picking him up and putting him in there. I never held him in there. He could jump right out, which he did. Then, one day, he jumps in on his own. I think it could have been done in a day but I seldom play with the dogs when I am in bed. But sometimes Jackson looks at me with those big brown eyes and I cave!

 

I know there are exceptions to EVERY rule. But the general concensous seems to be, well, his methods would never work with MY dog, so they are just wrong! The first time my trainer rapped Jackson on the nose for getting into the sheep, I thought, well, that's the end of that, he will come running to me in a second. Anytime he will come running. Yep, just anytime now he should start shutting down and shaking. Hey, why is he still working? Because he accepted it as it was. Don't do that! And his desire to work sheep was way stronger than him getting his feelings hurt cuz someone corrected him. Do I pop him on the nose at home? No, it ain't neccesary! He is not ZONED on things at home like he is sheep! There is no way to write a book on how to treat, train, discipline, etc. that will work on every dog. No more than you can write a book on raising younguns. But just like with younguns, there are CORE things you can do. When dogs have severe issues, naturally, they have to be dealt with differently than an average dog. IMHO, CM DOES understand dogs. He could not go into a backyard alone, with a dog that has shown he will bite, and then come out with the dog on a lead if he didn't. So you have a dog that couldn't be worked with his methods. Does that mean they are wrong? I don't think so scooter! Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! (guess that means I am old enough to understand Eileens comment! LOL)

 

Right now on this board, I could write that I have a prob with one of my dogs, and don't know what to do. And I will NOT get one answer with 15 people writing to agree. I will get several answers. And hopefully, I know my dog well enough to know which will work.

 

CM is a tool of which there are many. But, I think his success rate garners at least a "well, probly for most dogs, but not mine."

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No offense to anyone but by some of the testimonals about their dogs reactions I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. I don't think a corporal punishment debate will follow the same lines if you throw in a kid with autism in the mix. I'm not saying your dogs have mental problems per say, but some of the testimonials do not represent a normal dogs behavior and therefore you might be correct in saying CM/negative reinforcement weren't the best for your dog although it wouldn't classify as a rebuttle of the negative/CM method of obedience training either becuase of the special circumstances with your particular canine.

 

Very true. And, in fact, my dog does have mental problems, which is why I got involved in this discussion in the first place!!

 

The OP wrote:

 

Now Cesar Millan's method has become so popular, a lot of the dog trainers in my area are using it. That's great but I still don't agree with using it on some of the shy/sensitive dogs . . .

 

I kind of got the impression we were discussing the application of Milan's methods to dogs that fall into these kinds of special circumstance cases in particular!!!!

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I just wanted to chime in quickly here with the idea that some dogs do indeed pretend to be more submissive and 'sorry' than they really are. It took me a few years to realize that's what he was doing, but my male does this. However, it is NOT ever fear-related. He just knows that I lighten up on his correction when he looks sorry and upset. So. . . classical conditioning being what it is, he quickly learned to look sorry, but guess what, 2 seconds later he's bouncing around like his normal self. Turns out he's a hard-head in disguise

 

I don't personally like Cesar Milan. I saw an article a while back about dogs at his center being injured several times (I believe one celebrity's pet died on the treadmill, actually) but I can't remember where I saw it so I won't take it for fact. I'm surprised no one's mentioned it, actually. So in my mind, yes, at least a few dogs have been injured by him or his center (which HE is totally responsible for). These dogs aren't on TV, btw.

 

I think his methods are not what the masses should be seeing. I hope I don't see regular pet-people imitating him. But you know people will.

I think he helps people because the type of people's dogs he helps are those who don't already know how to train dogs themselves. I, personally, having been involved in dog training for 15 years and operant conditioning theory for 10, along with several college psychology courses (no, I'm not as educated as some here though!) would never, EVER, seek his help. I believe in training my OWN dogs by watching them, seeing how they think, and working with them.

 

I think it would be EXTREMELY beneficial to dog training in general if the camps of Corrections and Positives Only got together and had a cute little child called Moderation. This is how I try to train. Reward the good (yes, herding sheep is VERY rewarding to my dog, btw), and correct the bad, sometimes by physically holding them, sometimes by preventing the situation and desensitizing properly.

 

I don't think it's a great idea to have methods that could be dangerous to the average dog owner touted on TV as "dog whispering".

 

Anyway, not trying to argue with anyone in particular, just stating my thoughts on the matter.

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Editing to add, for a giggle, that I'm glad the "he beats his wife" was cleared up because when I read it, I googled to see if there was somethiing I had missed in mainstream news....

 

LOL!!! :rolleyes: Glad to see I wasnt the only one lol :D

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I believe that I said dogs will act submissive and sensitive to manipulate their owners not fearful. I was not picking on anyone in particular and apologize if I hurt your feelings Kristine. The second definition of manipulate in my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary is "to manage or utilize skillfully" and I believe this fits what a Border Collie does when it acts submissive or sensitive to get it's way.

 

Kevin Brannon

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I don't personally like Cesar Milan. I saw an article a while back about dogs at his center being injured several times (I believe one celebrity's pet died on the treadmill, actually) but I can't remember where I saw it so I won't take it for fact. I'm surprised no one's mentioned it, actually. So in my mind, yes, at least a few dogs have been injured by him or his center (which HE is totally responsible for). These dogs aren't on TV, btw.

 

Ceasar was not there at the time, and has since said that the person who was supposed to be watching that dog was not. Im sorry he may be in charge of the facility, but that doesnt mean he's omnipresent. I cant blame him for someone there being stupid. Do you (not you inparticular but everyone) follow your bosses orders 100% of the time to the t? I highly doubt it and even if you said yes I wouldnt believe you.

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I have heard more than one account of him over-exercising/over-heating a dog, or forcing it to work on the treadmill when it was still scared of it. Again, unverified sources but more than one of them.

 

I don't have any tasks at work that involve people's or animal's safety or well-being. The worst that can happen where I work is that someone gets their package late. And yes, my manager is responsible for my behavior even if I didn't follow the rules, since she trained me.

 

I probably won't post again on this topic, since all of the people posting already have concrete opinions and are not looking to change them.

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I have heard more than one account of him over-exercising/over-heating a dog, or forcing it to work on the treadmill when it was still scared of it. Again, unverified sources but more than one of them.

 

I don't have any tasks at work that involve people's or animal's safety or well-being. The worst that can happen where I work is that someone gets their package late. And yes, my manager is responsible for my behavior even if I didn't follow the rules, since she trained me.

 

I probably won't post again on this topic, since all of the people posting already have concrete opinions and are not looking to change them.

 

Im not saying that the guy who was supposed to be looking after the dog wasnt a complete jerk. Obviously he had no business working there. I am saying that Millan can hardly be blamed for it, although he is in the end responsible for what happens as it is his place. I dont mean to sound rude, but I heard stories about Richard Gere and various rodents, unverified but more than one account as well. Does that mean its true?

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I believe that I said dogs will act submissive and sensitive to manipulate their owners not fearful. I was not picking on anyone in particular and apologize if I hurt your feelings Kristine. The second definition of manipulate in my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary is "to manage or utilize skillfully" and I believe this fits what a Border Collie does when it acts submissive or sensitive to get it's way.

 

Kevin Brannon

 

No hurt feelings at all. I think I misunderstood you and felt that a reply was in order. I got the impression that you were saying that when most Border Collies display fear, they are actually being manipulative, and that this was the case most of the time. Like they are all "faking it" or something.

 

It seemed that you were implying that there is no true fear response in fearful dogs. When a dog is truly experiencing fear, there is no skillful managment going on - the dog is simply reacting on an emotional level and cannot control the reaction.

 

I apologize if my sarcasm came off as anger or hurt feeling. It was simply meant to make the point that I disagreed with what I thought was your position on the matter!!

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