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Guest LJS1993
I think batman beats Cesar's wife as a way to manipulate his fearful Border Collie into working sheep that actually only exist in cyberspace. :rolleyes::D:D

 

 

 

Or possibly Cesar was picked on as a child. So in that case this would be his way of getting even for all those bullies who picked on him. :D

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Guest TheRuffMuttGang

I have read this entire thread from start to finish and saw nothing new on this topic until I read RDM's post. I think that her post is bang-on. CM's show is directed a the general public--those who desire only to have a dog who will behave decently enough to be considered civilized, and NOW dangit. MOST of the population of dog owners don't have the time, energy or desire to spend countless hours working through issues or training a dog using +R. Is it a good method to train with? Sure, for some dogs, but definitely not all dogs. Like RDM, I am far too busy to sit down with every dog that comes through my doors and spend a lot of extra time trying to shape them not to run out my front door.

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One small point - I don't shape my dog to not run out of doors - that's where management and body blocking come into play - no punishment other than a harsh wrd and the physically blocking each time util the dog stops - works in about 5 mins for me and seems to stick well after only that session.

 

A clicker trainer like myself doesn't use the clicker for everything, although I use it a lot and have found it amazingly fast, esp compared to traditional training. Traditional methods took weeks to get a nice heel or fast down, clicker work took all of 10 mins to retrain the heel (and a nice flashy one at that) and about as long for the down (though I've since screwed that up on the table in agility lol). IME clicker work, with good timing, works faster than any other method I've tried on every dog I've worked with (standing at about 100 - 120 right now).

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adding my lil bit of useless information.

*I* believe that not one thing will work on everydog (duh) :rolleyes:

BUT I take a little from every type of training and tailor it to the dog. really the dog and its ability to cope or understand is the deciding factor on how it should be trained.

 

I will say that I have roll a dog ONCE and only once. and that was for biting me. full on drawing blood. I regret doing so, but it did leave an impact on the dog.... well she didn't trust me for awhile. but has never bitten me or anyone else ever again. BUT I would only EVER do this with a dog that i KNOW will submit to me. not that I would recommend that anyone do it at all. I do feel that with many BC' a person must be sensitive to their feelings. yes their feelings, I have tried training like I trained my more well DUMBER dogs, and realized that I was going to get no where punishing, and learned that +R will go SO much farther.... because what do they really want to do? they want to please you and get some love in return... or food :D

 

But my Wicket for example, +R doesn't always work and he needs a little Harsher method. now I am not saying that he is dumb, its more like he is too smart and before me, lived on the streets and shelter and did what HE wanted. so I have to tailor my training methods to him and trial and error.

 

*I* believe +R is a great way to train, and once that dog knows what it is supposed to be doing, then use corrections when they screw up.

 

I do not like the way Ceaser handles some of the dogs, but I think that before people start bashing him, they need to realize that he is human. and entitled to his opinion, and if people want to follow him, so be it. that is for them to decide. now once people bring this into the dog bark and start using him on *my* dogs, then the fangs come out :D

 

like I said there is my useless and rambling opinion :D

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...offering him things like food with his back to the dog...

 

You know, folks did this with my shy youngster for months on end, with little improvement in his behavior. Jack Knox worked with him for one minute at a fall clinic, and repeated it at Becca's January clinic - Bute chained to the fence was barking his head off at Jack; Jack took the chain and gave him a little tug; Bute kept barking; Jack gave a tug; repeat; repeat; Bute shortly realized that it was "easier" to sit next to Jack's knee than to bark and get tugged (and these tugs were not hard yanks), and moved over to nestle up against Jack's leg and look at him with a "what next, boss" look. "Make the good easy and the bad difficult."

 

At Tina and Skip's April Jack Knox clinic, Sarah (who was allowing the clinic to be held on her farm) wanted to pet Bute, who began his bark and "you're not going to touch me, you're evil" routine. I put the lead on his collar, handed it to her, and told her to just give him a little tug. With that, he moved over to sit next to her knee with a "what would you like" look. She was amazed as she (like myself and many others) would assume that a gentle voice and a crouch would "tame the wild beast".

 

All that the training with treats behind the back, not looking at the dog, etc., was doing for Bute was teaching him he could get the goodies and still exhibit the undesireable behavior. I'm not saying either approach is right or wrong for all dogs, just that some things work for one dog and not for another.

 

By the way, the "don't look but drop treats on the floor" has worked very well for me with some very frightened dogs (and one of those, at least, had a reason to be fearful of strangers - he'd come from Swa**ord, thin and covered in fleas, etc., at 10 months of age). I think the method Jack used was right for Bute, a dog that was smart enough to learn he could get the goodies without the work and who really had no good reason to be fearful.

 

And, I've never seen CM in action or his show, so a thread like this is of interest to me since I have no opinion of him other than what I've read here. I vascillate between thinking maybe he's good and maybe he's not good for dogs and their owners, depending on who's written the best (or most recent) well-written post. If push comes to shove, I'll trust what Eileen says (and certain other folks I have regard for).

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You know, folks did this with my shy youngster for months on end, with little improvement in his behavior. Jack Knox worked with him for one minute at a fall clinic, and repeated it at Becca's January clinic - Bute chained to the fence was barking his head off at Jack; Jack took the chain and gave him a little tug; Bute kept barking; Jack gave a tug; repeat; repeat; Bute shortly realized that it was "easier" to sit next to Jack's knee than to bark and get tugged (and these tugs were not hard yanks), and moved over to nestle up against Jack's leg and look at him with a "what next, boss" look. "Make the good easy and the bad difficult."

 

Ah, but what you described, and I have used a leash tug to get a dog's attention, is not the same as stringing a dog up off its feet, OR jerking so hard on the leash that a dog goes flying into outerspace.

 

I use the clicker for a lot of things, but I don't free shape everything either. I use to also mark what I want when I am using luring, etc to show a dog what I want. I do really like to free shape quite a few things, as it creates a thinking dog that is able to process information, focus on what is being rewarded and come to conclusions about what is required. I use a lot of freeshaping for behaviour modification, particulary impulse control, and I like to do a lot of free shaping to eliminate learning frustration in dogs.

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Coming from a place of training working stockdogs, I am unfamiliar with much of the terminology I encounter here. I think I have a glimmer into the +R thing, but can someone please explain "freeshaping" to me?

 

BTW, who "strings a dog up off its feet," or sends it "flying into outerspace"?

Thanks,

Anna

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Coming from a place of training working stockdogs, I am unfamiliar with much of the terminology I encounter here. I think I have a glimmer into the +R thing, but can someone please explain "freeshaping" to me?

 

Sure! Free shaping is waiting for your dog to perform an action, that you want him to do, of his own free will and then clicking/rewarding him. As your dog offers the behavior with more and more consistency, you put a name on it and then fade the clicker away.

 

So, for instance, if I were to free shape a hand touch (which is always one of the first behaviors that I free shape), I would hold my hand out in front of my dog and click/treat whenever he looks at it, touches it with his nose, or interacts with it in any way. Over time I would become more selective and click only when he actually touches my hand with his nose. Later, I would move the hand away to where he would have to move to touch it. When I get to the point where he knew to touch my hand any time I held it out, I would put a name to it (touch) and then fade the clicker away.

 

Like Northof49, I don't free shape a lot of behaviors - I do a lot more luring and marking with the clicker to start teaching new behaviors (which I later put on cue and then fade the clicker/treats away), but I find it a particularly valuable tool with my fearful dog. For example, for some reason I'll never know, he would completely freak out when I tried to teach him to back up by luring him. He would run and hide under a table and then shut down for a while. I free shaped backing up and he does it with enthusiasm now, whether I am working with him with the clicker or not. I also free shaped a lot of behavior around people and other dogs with him. It has helped him to learn to mentally process information in situations that spook him and to develop some great coping skills.

 

I use freeshaping a lot for Freestyle, too. I freeshaped Dean's leg weaves instead of luring them, and he "got" the concept much faster and does his legweaves with a really nice individual style.

 

To give another example, I put my foot on a low stool and waited for Dean to look at my leg - click/treat. I would toss the treat so he had to move away from my leg and when he approached it again, click/treat. Gradually I only clicked for him poking his head under the leg and then eventually, only for walking under it. I faded the stool and put it on cue and now he legweaves on the cue "leg" (with or without treats being involved). The particular thing about freeshaping this is that he had to figure it out all on his own. The advantage that I find is that a freeshaped behavior is a behavior that a dog never seems to forget.

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Ah, but what you described, and I have used a leash tug to get a dog's attention, is not the same as stringing a dog up off its feet, OR jerking so hard on the leash that a dog goes flying into outerspace.

 

I never meant to imply that the tug was inhumanely done as you describe. What you describe here is abuse, IMO.

 

BTW, who "strings a dog up off its feet," or sends it "flying into outerspace"?

 

There are folks who do this. One trainer told me that I needed to put a rope on my dog and "yank him right off his feet" if he didn't take my commands ("down" in particular) and also that I needed to put an electronic collar on him and use that if he didn't do what I told him to do. This is a somewhat soft and sensitive dog who makes a lot of his mistakes out of a combination of fearfulness, strong instinct, and an intense desire to control his stock. That was the time I worked my dog with this person for the rest of that clinic and forever.

 

Anyway, back to CM, I am concerned any time a trainer becomes a showman, and a lot of work is not shown because it's been cut on the editing floor. I think people get very unreal expectations of what he does and what they can do in this situation, and also get caught up by the showmanship.

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Anyway, back to CM, I am concerned any time a trainer becomes a showman, and a lot of work is not shown because it's been cut on the editing floor. I think people get very unreal expectations of what he does and what they can do in this situation, and also get caught up by the showmanship.

 

Amen to that. Too many people looking for an easy fix when the truth is that it doesn't really exist.

 

Maria

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Guest WoobiesMom

Sue, I think we were probably dealing with dogs with very different issues, although both probably rooted in fear. My dog wouldn't bark or bite, even when cornered, he was just extremely terrified of people, and in particular, men. My son worked with him so patiently and slowly over 3-4 days, gradually increasing the interaction, moving to feeding him while facing him, then making Woobie have to brush past an extended hand to get to the food, etc. It worked to create a bond between Woobie and him that is very strong and lasting and has now translated to other men. Woobie now goes more to males than females and I credit my son for that, he taught Woobie that they could be trusted. He responds faster to my son in training and doesn't try any shenanigans with him either even though he's never given him a correction. There's just a very deep respect that formed in a way I could not replicate nor could my daughter. Sure Woobie loves me and wants to perform, etc., but he also tests limits with me and is more naughty than with the strong male presence my son exudes, but Woobie will stick to him like velcro when he's home. Woobie is not real responsive to corrections during training so I restrict them to bad behavior, my bigger problem is finding the right level of enthusiasm while working because he gets a little hyped up and loses focus.

 

To each his own, take what helps and leave the rest should be the rule for everyone working their dogs, there are no golden rules or absolutes.

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Free shaping is waiting for your dog to perform an action, that you want him to do, of his own free will and then clicking/rewarding him.

 

OK--thanks for the explanation. I see it, but how do you get the dog to do something that first time? I mean, I can imagine waiting for a very long time for the dog to decide to do some particular behavior...for instance, the first time I want to teach the dog to "load up" into the truck. I can't imagine waiting around for the dog to do it of its own accord, or that I might even be there to catch it if/when it might happen. Or is that what the "luring" part is--luring the dog in to do some specific behavior (I would assume with a treat or toy or whatever?)? (Ok, "luring"--obviously more unfamiliar terminology)

 

I freeshaped Dean's leg weaves instead of luring them

 

I can imagine what a "leg weave" is, but again, do you just wait for the dog to decide to do something like that? How on earth does that happen? Or is that the other example you gave with the stool and all?

 

I feel like I'm in very foreign territory... :rolleyes:

Anna

 

ETA:

Yes but was Cesar bullied as a child?

 

Must have been, and that's why he beats his wife :D

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Oh, and I know that there are poeple who string dogs up, but I thought we were talking about CM, the infamous wife-beater. I've certainly not seen every episode, but I also have not seen anything resembling stringing up on those that I have seen,

Anna

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Free shaping uses "successive approximations" to catch behavior. For loading into a truck, you'd first click/treat (c/t) for any attention in the direction of the truck, then movement toward it, then contact w/ the tailgate or door area, then paws on the door/tailgate, then a jump. I'd only use shaping in this instance with a dog that was very concerned about entering a vehicle, for a "normal" dog unfamiliar with the skill, I'd probably just teach jumping onto something on a lower surface, and then use that cue to teach the dog to load up.

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Guest LJS1993
Oh, and I know that there are poeple who string dogs up, but I thought we were talking about CM, the infamous wife-beater. I've certainly not seen every episode, but I also have not seen anything resembling stringing up on those that I have seen,

Anna

 

 

Maybe Cesar was strung up as a child and now takes it out on poor defenseless doggies. :rolleyes:

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One small point - I don't shape my dog to not run out of doors - that's where management and body blocking come into play - no punishment other than a harsh wrd and the physically blocking each time util the dog stops - works in about 5 mins for me and seems to stick well after only that session.

 

I've seen CM use body speak just like this but I do not think he'd use harsh words as that would probably just work the dog up in the attemp to get out the door. His voice plays just as big a part as his body speak, just as it does when training a dog to work correctly.

 

Katelynn

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OK--thanks for the explanation. I see it, but how do you get the dog to do something that first time? I mean, I can imagine waiting for a very long time for the dog to decide to do some particular behavior

 

It is usually best to start with really small behaviors to get the dog into the habit of training in this way. So, I might start by putting a treat in my fist, and click/treat when my dog makes the choice to stop sniffing, nosing, pawing at my hand - voila! a free shaped behavior (a tiny little "leave it).

 

It is also best to start with the dog in a restricted amount of space. I free shaped a "down" with Maddie by taking her into the tiniest, most boring room in my house and I literally waited until she lay down out of boredom to shape it. There was very little for her to do in that situation but lay down!

 

There are also games that one can play with a dog to teach him/her to offer different behaviors. These are like exercises to teach the skill of trying different things (for the dog, not the handler!) In "101 Things to do with a Box", you put a box out (again, this is best in a small area at first) and click for anything your dog does with the box. At first he/she might just look at it (click/treat), and then approach it (click/treat). If you do this enough, eventually your dog will likely get very imaginative with the box!

 

One can play the same game with a lot of different objects. I know someone who is playing this with her dog with a skateboard. Eventually she will be able to shape a lot of different skateboard tricks with her.

 

The more one plays these games, the more the dog will learn that when the clicker comes out, it's time to play this particular game where he/she must figure out what you are looking for him/her to do! They get better at it over time. When I started with Speedy, he used to stare holes into my head. Now he gets quite creative.

 

...for instance, the first time I want to teach the dog to "load up" into the truck. I can't imagine waiting around for the dog to do it of its own accord, or that I might even be there to catch it if/when it might happen.

 

True! It's not really that you just keep a clicker and treats on you and hope to catch your dog doing what you want to train at some random point, although some clicker trainers do this. Having multiple dogs, I only train with a clicker during specific individual training sessions!

 

For loading up into the truck, I probably wouldn't choose free shaping. I might train it with a target. A target can be anything that you would teach your dog (usually through shaping) to "go to and touch" whenever you bring it out and place it somewhere. You could place the target in the truck when you want to do a training session and click/treat when your dog gets into the truck to touch the target. Once the dog has this down and is getting in consistently, you could put it on cue, fade the target and there you go!

 

Or, if you really wanted to shape it, you could park the truck near a wall and use gates to make it so the dog doesn't have very room to do anything except get into the truck, and shape the behavior. One of the most important skills for the handler to develop is to make it as easy for the dog to figure out what you want as possible, while still leaving the dog with the ability to figure it out. It's not that you just wait for the behavior to happen at random in most cases.

 

Or is that what the "luring" part is--luring the dog in to do some specific behavior (I would assume with a treat or toy or whatever?)? (Ok, "luring"--obviously more unfamiliar terminology)

 

Luring is, as you said, luring the dog to do a specific behavior, usually with a treat, but sometimes a toy might work. If you teach your dog to follow your hand, you can lure with an open hand, too, but that would have to be taught as a separate skill first.

 

So, to teach my dog to twirl in a circle in front of me, I would hold a treat in my hand and slowly lead him around in the circle and click just as the circle is finished and deliver the treat. I would do that 5 - 10 times a day for about a week to get him familiar with the behavior. Once I got to that point, I would lure without a treat in my hand - by now the dog is anticipating what is going to happen - and click/treat as the circle is complete. After a few days of that, I use my hand/lure to get the dog started going in the circle and then fade it away to let the dog complete the circle on his own for click/treat. Once he is twirling on his own when I just give a wave of my hand, I attach a cue to the behavior and then I can eventually drop the hand signal altogether and then fade the clicker and treats.

 

I do most of my training by lure shaping, marking the behavior with clicker, and then fading the clicker once the behavior is on cue, so I end up teaching my dogs a lot of things this way. Still, there are some things that it's just better to free shape!

 

I can imagine what a "leg weave" is, but again, do you just wait for the dog to decide to do something like that? How on earth does that happen? Or is that the other example you gave with the stool and all?

 

It really depends on the dog. There are tons of ways to shape behaviors, and it usually ends up being best to figure out what works best for your dog and combine methods together.

 

With Dean I used the method with the stool. With him, me putting my foot on the stool drew his interest enough that I was able to shape the behavior without any lures with him. We had already done some shaping games and other behaviors, so he was in the habit of trying to figure out where he should move.

 

With Maddie, that would not work so well. She doesn't offer new behaviors as readily, so I use more luring and targeting. With her, I would use a target (the object that she has learned to go to and hit with her nose) to get her moving in the right direction through the leg at first.

 

I feel like I'm in very foreign territory...

 

I know what you mean. I got interested in clicker training because someone told me in passing that Border Collies like it. I had a young Border Collie that had some . . . difficulties . . . so I got a book and a clicker. After reading a chapter, I took him to the room that I always trained him in and stood there with the clicker and treats in hand and waited for him to start doing stuff! He got bored and wandered off pretty quickly!

 

All of the terms in the book were strange and I didn't really know what it all meant and I pretty much gave up on it almost immediately. It didn't make sense and seemed counterintuitive at that point.

 

Then a couple of years later, I saw a live clicker demo and the whole idea behind it just (pardon the pun) clicked in my brian. After that, the terminology began to make sense and I started using clicker to rehabilitate my fearful dog and I haven't stopped learning about it since!

 

So, I hope I've been able to make it a little clearer than mud for you! :rolleyes:

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Hey Mr. Snappy... good post, but if you go back through the threads you will see "timing", mentioned several times, by several posters, one being myself (April 23rd post). You are very correct, whether it is discipline or reward/praise, "Timing" is of the utmost importance.

And once again... Jack Knox certainily got my Phoenix on the right path as far as behavior. I did all the positive stuff, the desensitizing stuff. the clicker stuff, etc, etc... and his aggression was under control as long as he had a frisbee in his mouth. It was simply and only redirected, not gone. I got real tired of carrying either a frisbee or a tennis ball every where we went, to distract his aggressive behavior. I knew his "behavior problem", had surpassed my many years of training experience, and so I decided to start him in herding lessons. I waited until he was almost 2 yrs. old to start herding lessons, because I took the well meaning advice of some people to not even get started in the herding training if I was not going to be able to work him all the time, or if he was not a farm dog. Well...then I decided to take the advice of others who said poooooy, let him train and work with sheep even if it is only 3 or 4 times a year at clinics. So I did. We have attended 3 of Jacks clinics since last June and we worked with another handler who lives close to me only a couple of times last summer for practice and now we are starting a more regular training schedule with another trainer known to many on these boards about 2 1/2 hrs from me, hopefully 2 weekends a month.

I only know, that when Jack Knox saw how my Phoenix was acting in the first five minutes of the clinic ( our very 1st clinic)

last June in Davidsonville, while Jack was doing his good morning introduction to everyone and my whacky do stood up to

jump at the end of his leash, snarling, barking, hair up on back like he wanted to

kill the poor dog who just walked by him, and he took Phoenix's leash and whacked his little butt 2 times, we have not had that same behavior since, period. He has been aggressive over this past year, but it is waaaay less, and every clinic or training session or places I take him now, he is almost 100% better. Just today, on a walk two little (almost doggies) Yorkies at 2 different time came running at him like little maniacs right up to him. I was absolutely amazed, he simply ran toward the 1st little dog , no barking no lunging no aggression, just turned and ran towards thelittle charging critter, and that dog just gave it up and went back into his yard. I had him on a pretty short leash, so that little dog got right on us too. the second dog, I yelled at and immediately told Phoenix to leave it and he did!!!!!! This NEVER would have happened a year ago, never!

I am one of those people at our first clinic who did cringe, when I saw Jack coming toward us, having been told that Phoenix may be disciplined "differently", than I am used to...I just knew Phoenix would be scared to death of Jack from that point on...NOT! he is just fine, goes to him for an occassional pat and when he is called.

Different strokes for different dogs,! :rolleyes:

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The argument can still be made that just because a method works, regardless of what species it is applied to, human, dog, or otherwise, does not necessarily mean it is okay to use.

 

There is a rancher here that consistently when training his stockdogs does not hesitate to literally grab them by the neck and the butt and throw them against the corrall boards with a lot of force. He has knocked out several dogs. This does teach the dogs to get back off their stock when told to, but is it an appropriate training method?

 

One of Koehler's methods of teaching dogs not to agress was that you had them on the choke chain and you threw the leash over a tree limb. When the dog tried to charge at another dog, you hung the dog up off the ground until it just about passed out - this worked, but is it right and should it be accepted as an okay way of dealing with dog behaviour. He was also the proponent of digging dogs - fill the hole with water and hold the dog's head under the water until it stopped struggling to teach it not to dig holes any more.

 

One of Cesar's shows I watched he had a dog on a halti and when it tried to go out the door to play with another dog he literally strung it up with its hindlegs off the ground. This worked, scared the shit out of the dog and it didn't even want to do near the back door after that, but that doesn't necessarily make it right.

 

"Apha rolls" are not part of our dog on dog interactions. If never has been. It was a result of misinterpretation of a study done on a captive wolf population years ago, which was then revoked by the authors a couple of years later, but by that time the dog training world had latched on to it and wouldn't let it go. They totally misintrepeted what was happening. They realized that the "alpha" wolf was not physically forcing the subordinate wolf down the ground to make it submit, the subordinate wolf was showing deference to the "alpha" by assuming the ulitmate "I am a worm and know it" position - voluntarily lying down and exposing its belly.

 

Interestingly enough, if you read the studies done on captive wolf packs and studies done on wolf packs in the wild, the pack dynamics are different.

 

Have I ever held a dog down - yes I have so that it won't attack me. It was already down and I could tell that it was going to go for me. The only way I could prevent that was to hold onto the collar and keep the dog down until it changed its' mind. I have downed dogs and held them by the collar to keep them there instead of trying to chase something, but never do alpha rolls.

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I read a study once that suggested wolf packs were actually passively controlled by middle ranking females, and that the "alpha" concept really only applied to the mated pair in the group. I wish I could find that study again, it was very interesting.

 

RDM

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I read a study once that suggested wolf packs were actually passively controlled by middle ranking females, and that the "alpha" concept really only applied to the mated pair in the group. I wish I could find that study again, it was very interesting.

 

RDM

 

 

Is this the study you are referring to?

 

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/index.htm

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That's an interesting study. I'm looking forward to reading through it more completely, but on a brief perusal, this . . .

 

"The concept, nature, and importance of the dominance hierarchy or pecking order (Schjelderup-Ebbe 1922) itself in many species are in dispute (summary in Wilson 1975). Similarly, in a natural wolf pack, dominance is not manifested as a pecking order and seems to have much less significance than the results of studies of captive packs had implied (Schenkel 1947, 1967; Rabb et al. 1967; Zimen 1975, 1982; Lockwood 1979). In a natural wolf pack, the dominance rules bear no resemblance to those of the pecking order, that of a group of similar individuals competing for rank. "

 

. . . is exactly the reason why I don't incorporate dominance theory into my own training philosophy. I've done some reading about wild dogs, and the same thing seems to be observed by those who study and write about them - the wild dog pack exists more as a family where everyone has a contributing role, and not as a structure where everyone who isn't "on top" is trying to get there and everyone who is "on top" is trying to squelch everyone else's efforts to get "on top". For me that translates into regarding most "force" methods of training as more of a last resort than as the first methods I would try, or recommend that others try, with domestic dogs.

 

Regarding Cesar, it seems to me that he does incorporate dominance theory into his overall training philosophy and that's the main reason why I don't really consider him an authority that I look to, nor recommend to others, when it comes to training. And in all honesty, for me that's the case for sensitive/fearful dogs and for dogs that are of a more "normal" temperament.

 

It would be interesting to know if there is a link between fans of Cesar's methods/those who don't like Cesar's methods and those who hold dominance theory as correct/those who don't hold dominance theory as correct.

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Alpha rolling is really, really not smart. Stop for a second and just try to think of a better way to expose yourself more to a bite, than getting down on the ground with your hands busy holding the dog's body, and your face inches from the dog's teeth. I handle aggressive dogs by the back of the neck if necessary. That's not a correction, that's self-preservation.

 

One important thing to note about the leash corrections described at the Jack Knox clinics - they are combined with a step back, an inviting call of the name, a pat of the leg, an open posture - clear messages that this is the right place, you'll be safe here, but not there acting stupid.

 

I had a really interesting discussion with a psychologist at the last clinic about some parallels between what Jack does with fearful dogs, and the way post traumatic stress disorder is treated. PTSD is when an experience shifts natural fears into that part of the brain which controls instinctive or subconscious action. Normal behavioral modification cannot touch these fears - they only make it worse because every time the synapses are triggered, they are strengthened [edited, couldn't think of the right word before], as is the nature of the psysiology of that part of the brain. It's only stepping a person through the things they fear, over and over, talking them through it to keep the experience in the "conscious" part of the brain, that will break the cycle.

 

The "chatter" that you'll see Jack use, is what put this expert in mind of the techniques used on PTSD patients. A key to his method that people often seem to miss is that while he does use strong and unequivocal corrections, he's also always offering the carrot - the name called kindly, the leg pat, the welcoming posture. This stimulates the dog to start thinking, which starts (she thought possibly) new synaptic paths to overwrite the old fear response. Far from seeming "shut down", it's clear to see that the dog relaxes and gains confidence - sometimes I see these dogs and feel as if they are really seeing their environment clearly for the first time.

 

I don't know what to think about CM. Since our paths are unlikely to cross, and I don't have regular access to his show, I suppose it really doesn't matter to me personally. Every training method has the potential to be misapplied and I believe that (besides the fact that he's not scientifically educated and uses the old "pack structure" theory) is the main objection to his show - a valid one, certainly. I've only seen three episodes and only disagreed with the approach taken on one of them.

 

I do know that the little clip that's available on youtube, of the Southpark CM episode, is one the funniest things I've ever seen on the internet (THE funniest ever was the clip of the late Steve Irwin and the gay guy). Darn, I can't find it - maybe it wasn't youtube.

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I don't prescribe to the dominance theory either, and when assessing dogs I don't assess dominance or submission. To me some dogs are more assertive than others, and those are the ones that would like you to play by their rules. An assertive dog can end up running a household if the owners don't provide the proper set of rules and reinforce them, where a less assertive dog is quite happy to go along with whatever.

 

For me my Border Collies have always been assertive dogs. That does not mean that we are at logger heads all the time, but sometimes they like to see if they can push my buttons, or see if they can push someone elses button and have their rules be the choice of the day.

 

My dogs constantly go this route when first interacting with someone they don't know. They will say, these are the rules when playing fetch with me. I tell the person what the rules actually are, and there is usually a battle of wills so to speak for the first five minutes or so until they realize that the new person is going to stick by my rules, then they are quite happy to comply. A lot of times it is very very subtle things that the other person doesn't pick up on but I do.

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