Picking your Puppy ?.

[Nuance]

When i am looking for a Border Collie Pup i have specific requirements that i look for.

Choosing a pup, i want the puppy who sits and watches and thinks more than physically plays. I am looking for the pup who is more mind active than physical. 

When you choose your pups do you look for anything in particular?

If you had first pick of a litter what type of pup would you choose and why?

 

I am asking this question because i do have a preference to the type of puppy i look for and am wondering what others look for in a pup. Does how you train or condition work better on certain border collies with different traits?

[Lawgirl]

Not really a question I can answer, as I have not been in this situation.  The first two BCs I got were puppies who were the last two in the litter, and I took them both.  The third BC was a give away puppy at 20 weeks old.  The fourth and fifth BCs were both rescues as teenagers/young adults, so I have not had to pick a puppy yet.

I want to say that I would want a confident, intelligent but cuddly puppy, but if I am brutally honest I suspect I would just fall in love with one out of the litter.

[terrecar]

I like to get older dogs now, but I have had the breeder pick my pup for me in the past, based on their evaluation of pups in the litter and what I was looking for. If I were doing the choosing, I’d probably go for a confident pup but not necessarily the most bold one. The last dog I got was 7 years old and turned out to be a perfect fit. She’s 13 now.

[Journey]

Since I don't let people *pick* their pup I'd take into consideration your preferences and desires. The breeder knows their pups better than anyone. What you see in a visit is simply a snapshot in time. Knowing them for 10 weeks gives the breeder much more knowledge than a person enamored with puppies for 30 minutes. That said, my pups pick me, they tend to be middle of the road, have a desire to be with me and not go headlong into trouble they may not know what they are getting into.

[gcv-border]

I have never picked a pup. I have purchased 4 from different breeders. All breeders were too far away (one was across the country) for any visit. One pup was the last in the litter, and I grabbed her after losing a (rescue) dog to cluster seizures. All I knew about her was that I liked her pedigree, and the breeder was honorable and known to produce quality dogs. For the other 3, I had "conversations' with the breeders in which I described the attributes I thought would work well for the canine activities I participated in and the breeder chose the pup. I have been pleased with all of them, but I also believe that in a well-bred litter any of the pups would be acceptable to me, and that the adult dog is a result of MY training and interactions with the pup.

[beachdogz]

This reminds me of a story I once heard.  It was a Bob Self Obedience Seminar years ago (a LOT of years ago).  He was a "big name" trainer (he had Dobermans, I believe) and it was just about the time that "puppy testing" by the Volhards came out.  So it was the first question someone raised their hand and asked him -- "Do you puppy test your obedience prospects?"  It was deathly quiet in the room.  Everyone wanted to know how he picked THE puppy.  His answer went something like this:  "Oh, absolutely.  I go through all the steps.  I pay close attention to the retrieving test.  I go through the whole litter and take notes.  And then the one that jumps up on me and gives me a kiss is the one I take home!"  And I honestly don't believe he was kidding! 

[gcv-border]

3 hours ago, beachdogz said:

This reminds me of a story I once heard.  It was a Bob Self Obedience Seminar years ago (a LOT of years ago).  He was a "big name" trainer (he had Dobermans, I believe) and it was just about the time that "puppy testing" by the Volhards came out.  So it was the first question someone raised their hand and asked him -- "Do you puppy test your obedience prospects?"  It was deathly quiet in the room.  Everyone wanted to know how he picked THE puppy.  His answer went something like this:  "Oh, absolutely.  I go through all the steps.  I pay close attention to the retrieving test.  I go through the whole litter and take notes.  And then the one that jumps up on me and gives me a kiss is the one I take home!"  And I honestly don't believe he was kidding! 

I love that story!

[D'Elle]

I love it too. And it sounds like what I would do if I were to pick out a puppy. Test all you want but go with what your gut says and how the puppy reacts to you. That's what I would do if it were a litter of rescue pups. I would rather have the breeder choose for me if I were getting a border collie puppy from a breeder. They would know a lot more about which one would suit my needs and purposes than I could tell from one or two meetings. And even if rescue, I would chat with the foster person about the pup for the same reason. Those puppy tests are not without merit but we all know that a puppy's personality can sometimes change significantly in the course of a few weeks, or their reactions may be different the day you are there from what they are usually..

[beachdogz]

Well, and then there's me.  I have chosen from appearance (seriously) and mojo.

Two BC adoptees:  Wanted a black & white classic.  Saw a courtesy listing through a rescue.  Went and picked Kylie up.  Didn't really even meet her. After that, I wanted a red and white split face.  One turned up at a shelter.  Went and picked Rusty up.  He was recovering from neutering, so didn't really get to meet him.  With my adopted dogs, I like getting a dog and figuring out what makes them tick and fixing the issues.  So short of outright aggression (which I would probably pass on), I am ok not picking with parameters. 

Current two BCs:  Contacted farm where a neighbor got his dog, (I was enamored with that dog!)  Saw Piper's picture and fell totally in love with her from the photo.  Went to see the litter, and while I was still in love with Piper (mojo), here comes this big, red boy just full of himself.  Loved his looks and personality.  Put a deposit on both of them.  No regrets.

Now if I was looking for a working pup, or a service dog, or an agility prospect, then I would probably have parameters.  Would I ever recommend this method of picking a dog to someone else?  Nope.  But it works for me! 

[Nuance]

@Journey As you have bred Border Collies, what characteristics do people most desire in their dogs or expect from the dogs you have bred?

 

[Journey]

11 hours ago, Nuance said:

@Journey As you have bred Border Collies, what characteristics do people most desire in their dogs or expect from the dogs you have bred?

 

Brains. The ability to think and recover. Confidence but in a thoughtful manner. A desire to please and partner up. Biddability. 

[D'Elle]

One of the dogs I have right now I got because I fell in love with a face on the internet. I told myself for three days that I did not need that dog, who is not a border collie, but I couldn't help myself and went to meet him.  He has been with me for 10 years now. He is just about perfect and I cannot imagine my life without him. So, you never know how a dog will come to you. My experience is that if it truly feels right, it is.

[Nuance]

@Journey While i am not surprised about "Brains" as a top desire. Confidence is bit of a shocker (i would have thought most people build confidence in there dogs through  their relationship) and Biddability would have never entered my mind had you not written it.

Journey ,  I am curious about determining the best placement for the different characteristics in a pup?

What home does a Brainiac BC thrive in? Etc.

 

 Everyone else,

I have had many many types of dogs and the circumstances on how they came to me was never the same, so i can relate to you there.

Border Collies however, are a perfect storm dog for me. There are a lot of things that have to line up perfectly , breeder, the dogs/pup parents and their lives, health, and the specific traits i am looing for, this takes years to find. Border Collies require a much higher degree of mental stimulation and physical stimulation comparatively to most breeds.  This extra stimulation(mental and physical) is a lot more work. To put it in prospective, Daylight gets out 5 to 7 hours each day, that would be 2 to 4 hours for any other type of dogs I've raised.(2 to 3hrs is normal for most dogs)

At twice the work of most dogs, i want to make sure  i start with the best possible chances

[terrecar]

I don’t know why using confidence as a criterion for evaluating pups is a shocker. I would think a puppy buyer would want to work on confidence building, through relationship and socialization, regardless. However, the two propositions—selecting for confidence and and rearing for confidence—are not mutually exclusive. You can do both, although the former might have a lesser impact and/or be subject to misinterpretation.

Believe me, as someone who has brought an adult dog from being shut down to being social, I do know the importance of relationship and nurture. But I also believe that temperament is somewhat biologically based, and that’s what I would guess is being evaluated in puppies—temperament.  

[Mark Billadeau]

The confidence to walk up into the face of a ram or a ewe with lambs, I don’t believe, is something one can fully instill in a dog through the relationship you have with the dog.  This is especially true when you cannot be nearby.

[Journey]

7 hours ago, Nuance said:

@Journey While i am not surprised about "Brains" as a top desire. Confidence is bit of a shocker (i would have thought most people build confidence in there dogs through  their relationship) and Biddability would have never entered my mind had you not written it.

Journey ,  I am curious about determining the best placement for the different characteristics in a pup?

What home does a Brainiac BC thrive in? Etc.

 

 Everyone else,

I have had many many types of dogs and the circumstances on how they came to me was never the same, so i can relate to you there.

Border Collies however, are a perfect storm dog for me. There are a lot of things that have to line up perfectly , breeder, the dogs/pup parents and their lives, health, and the specific traits i am looing for, this takes years to find. Border Collies require a much higher degree of mental stimulation and physical stimulation comparatively to most breeds.  This extra stimulation(mental and physical) is a lot more work. To put it in prospective, Daylight gets out 5 to 7 hours each day, that would be 2 to 4 hours for any other type of dogs I've raised.(2 to 3hrs is normal for most dogs)

At twice the work of most dogs, i want to make sure  i start with the best possible chances

I'm not even sure how to answer this..what is a brainiac bc to you? 

 

As to the rest of your post, none of my dogs get 7 or 8 hours on physical/mental work daily. They do chores year round, 1 is specific for lambing as well since the others aren't there yet.  I don't understand "twice the work" either...and yes @terrecartemperament is very important. 

[D'Elle]

3 hours ago, Journey said:

As to the rest of your post, none of my dogs get 7 or 8 hours on physical/mental work daily. They do chores year round, 1 is specific for lambing as well since the others aren't there yet.  I don't understand "twice the work" either...and yes @terrecartemperament is very important. 

None of my border collies have had 7 or more hours of outdoor work a day either. Nor do professional border collies who herd livestock. Far more typically it is intense or extensive (not usually both) work or exercise at 2 or 3 different times in the day each time not lasting more than an hour. 

I also have not ever felt that, with any of the border collies I have owned or with any I have fostered, who often came to me with some or many issues that needed work, they were any more work than any other breed or mixed breed of dog. Same with the puppies.  I think they might be more work perhaps for someone who is not familiar with the breed or is not skilled at training. 

For me, as someone who wants to train the dogs who are in the household, every dog gets the same training and takes the same work. In some ways border collies take a lot less work because they learn so fast.  However...when the dog learns everything at a rapid speed, that means mistakes in training are also learned, and then have to be unlearned. Not always so with other dogs. Although the same will be true of many intelligent dogs, border collies really show you your training weaknesses. All those border collies have taught me more about training than any course, book, or people have.  

As for confidence, I have not trained dogs to work stock and that is an entirely other thing. But I know I have taken foster border collies at various ages from having zero confidence, being timid or shy or fearful or fear-aggressive, to being happy outgoing confident dogs, and it has sometimes taken a lot less time than I thought it would. These dogs have turned out to be fine companions with no problems,  doing sports and activities including sport herding, going everywhere with their people, and certainly did not start out with everything lined up perfectly at the beginning of their life. In fact, at times just the opposite. 

 

[urge to herd]

My experience as a bc owner, (Gibbs is my 5th) is that b. collies DON'T need to be kept busy all day every day. These dogs NEED to be doing things WITH their owners. Herding, trick training, agility, nose work, tracking, etc. They need to be part of a team. And they need owners who teach them to settle.

No one I know wants a dog who needs to be 'doing stuff' for 5-7 hours a day. None of my b collies have needed that amount of stimulation. They've certainly made it clear that they want interaction with me, or a walk, (I swear these dogs have a timepiece built in!) but 5-7 hrs a day? It's unreasonable. 

R&G

PS The first dog I had was a cattle dog or cattle dog  mix. Tillie was a stray I found. She had the same need to be doing stuff with her human that my b. collies have had.

 

 

 

[Nuance]

@terrecar Confidence is something i build in my dogs . I find it shocking because it is a trait that can built up.

@Mark Billadeau Hear you and understand what you are saying, however my dogs have faced bears and moose... this was because of the relationship i built with them.(they protected me) 

@Journey Brainiac = genius. Still interested in how you determine the best suitable home for your pups.

@D'Elle 5 to 7 hours isn't typical for most, i am not most and neither are the Border Collies i raise. What others do with their Border collies has no impact on me or my B.C.s. 

@urge to herd My days are a lot longer than 5 to 7 hours a day...i am outside more than i am inside.

 

 Rescues or adult dogs, i don't do, i raise a pup from scratch(or with a shadow dog to help train).

Daylight doesn't do tricks, isn't trained with treats and is off leash all the time(as her youtube channel shows) She has no issues with sound or motion, people or other animals . Daylight isn't unique , as all of my B.C.s are raised in the same manner.

I spend at least 3 hours of each day just walking to destination we can explore.

Who here walks for three hours ?(so their dog can explore something new) 

 

 

[Mark Billadeau]

However, dogs won’t perceive ewes with lambs as a threat to me; depending upon the situation they won’t perceive rams as a threat to me.  It’s one thing to be protective of their partner who is standing nearby, it’s another to face down aggressive livestock 200yards away from you.

Personally have dealt with dogs that will face down livestock when you’re at hand (drawing confidence from your presence) but will not do so as the distance from you grows.

Courage/confidence can be improved with training; however, there is a significant genetic component to it.  My opinion is most traits are controlled by genetics and nurture (positive or negative) enhances or suppresses their nature.

”Herding” is a genetically controlled set of traits (otherwise all breeds could be trained for working livestock); it stands to reason all other traits are genetically controlled.

[terrecar]

My mother grew up on a farm. When she was a young girl, her sisters took a short-cut through the pasture and were confronted by an irate bull. Her family dog went after the bull and saved those girls a heap of trouble. Somehow the dog came away unscathed. I’m not sure which dog it was. I’ve seen photos of an old style farm collie she had and also a German Shepherd. Those old farm dogs were great. 

[terrecar]

31 minutes ago, Mark Billadeau said:

Courage/confidence can be improved with training; however, there is a significant genetic component to it.  My opinion is most traits are controlled by genetics and nurture (positive or negative) enhances or suppresses their nature.

I agree with this.

[Journey]

3 hours ago, Nuance said:

 

@Journey Brainiac = genius. Still interested in how you determine the best suitable home for your pups.

 

 

 Rescues or adult dogs, i don't do

 

 

That's sad that you think so lowly of adult and rescue dogs. Many a good dog is to be found in either situation. 

No such thing as a brainiac in my world. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. What one perceives is a strength to another can be a weakness.

Your statements reflect a low opinion of many and I'm finding this thread unhelpful to any guests that may be reading. How a breeder places their pups is their own criteria. I choose not to have to be married to pup owners! Be they pet (sport) homes or working homes pups are placed in working homes first, then the pet homes. I won't send a bold confident pup to a first time pet home. A pet home will get a suitable mild middle of the road pup. I also won't let them leave prior to 10 weeks. There's lots to be seen and learning to happen while still with the litter. The flip side being as they are separated there are new facets that come to the forefront to be thought out. Placing a pup is not something that can just be written about, too many variables involved. 

[Journey]

3 hours ago, Nuance said:

 

Deleted. Double post.

[beachdogz]

5 hours ago, Nuance said:

Daylight doesn't do tricks, isn't trained with treats and is off leash all the time(as her youtube channel shows) She has no issues with sound or motion, people or other animals . Daylight isn't unique , as all of my B.C.s are raised in the same manner.

I wasn't going to respond to this post because of your past posts, however, I thought I'd give it a second chance.  Well, it's the same old thing.  (Administrators:  please include an emoji that is smacking it's head, as I need one here.) 

I have really enjoyed reading about how others on this forum pick puppies.  But I totally agree with Journey, who said:  "Your statements reflect a low opinion of many and I'm finding this thread unhelpful to any guests that may be reading."  I am sure I speak for many when I say that we participate in this forum to learn new things, to help each other,  and to help newcomers to the breed.  I'm sorry, but it seems all you want to do is brag about yourself and try to start a spat or be critical with others (sorry...but I'm a pretty open person;  I call 'em as I see 'em.)

And please quit bragging about your dog being off leash.  There are leash laws where you live, just as where we all live.  Not only are you breaking the law, but you are providing a bad example for those people we are trying to encourage to be responsible pet owners.  There are people on this forum that have done truly impressive and amazing things with their dogs, and have done it by being responsible and humble.  It was a good question, but I don't believe it was done in the spirit of educating others and promoting good will within our breed.  Please post responsibly.