Help, is my BC crazy?

[Jeana W]

Hi, new here and really hoping to get some advice.  Our BC, Bernie, will be 10 months old this month.  He is the sweetest, friendliest dog I have ever come across.  The issue is he is so hyper and gets so OCD we can not break his focus.  We try to exercise him regularly with walks and play time in the back yard.  We have had a trainer for him and she was very helpful and gave us some great advice but he is just over the top.  As I write this my daughter and her boyfriend have their mini Aussie, Mabel, over.  Bernie and Mabel get along very well and have a lot of fun.  We watch and try to make sure Bernie doesn't get over tired. We learned the hard way about zoomies. After some time of playing we bring the dogs in and put them in their crates.  Bernie does not settle down.  He is in his crate digging and crying.  As my son puts it he sounds like he is getting murdered.  We do have his crate blocked from view so he can't see anyone.  We cannot put a cover on the crate as he will get ahold of it and destroy it.  He was also very fearful as a puppy and it took along time to get him to get used to everyday outside sounds.  He has seemed to have reverted and freaks out when he hears a dog barking in the distance, a large truck / bus.  There is nothing we can do to calm him down.  Per recommendation from our vet, we give him melatonin at night to help him calm down for sleep.  I also bought dog specific CBD treats but haven't given them to him yet.  I am a little unsure and would also like to know if anyone has any experience with them.  I apologize this is so long and all over the place.  I really want to be able to help him and it breaks my heart when he gets to the point that he won't settle down and can't be calmed.  He is a big boy and a little dog in a big dogs body and he can come off as being rough when he is just trying to play or say hi. Thank you in advance for any advice.  

 

[Journey]

Does he have any nice chews in his crate to occupy him?

[Mana19]

Have you actually crate trained him? You need to build tons of value around the crate, my border initially hated the crate but with consistent rewarding, toys, chews etc, things to keep them occupied like kongs within a few months she loved the crate. I never hear a peep and I've had a camera on it when I go out and she's completely relaxed.

She has one in each room and will happily choose to go sit in her crate with the door open vs sitting on the carpet. The same for external stimuli, whenever I took my dog out and a dog barked, came nearby etc. I asked her to sit and rewarded her. After enough repetition I've now got a dog that is non-reactive and will sit calmly even when another dog comes by. 

Also I've found with exercise it's more important what you get up to during that exercise. If what you consider as exercise is 2-3 hours of walks a day it's not enough. I highly recommend teaching fetch and making it your go to daily exercise. At this age you don't want to push too hard but a good 20-30mins in the morning and your dog will be tired and satiated. A lot more than a 2 hour walk could achieve. Exercising that brain is one of the most important things so getting them to think for themselves and make good decisions is the key. 

[urge to herd]

Border collies crave mental activity with their humans. They've been bred for a long time to work as part of a team. Physical exercise is not enough ~ they need to work those brains. If you haven't taught him the basics, such as  ~ come, lie down, sit, sit/stay, heel, etc start there. If those cues are already 'installed' and reliable, find a book of dog tricks and start working on those. One at a time. I think there's a book called '101 Tricks to Teach Your Dog'. It can be a lot of fun for humans and dogs both. If there is some one in your area teaching nose work skills take some classes. A good nose work session can tire a dog out mentally. To me it doesn't sound like you're doing that. Do several short training sessions throughout the day. If you're not home to train him do a quick session in the morning and a couple quick sessions in the evening.

Teaching fetch ~ make it very clear from the beginning that the game ends when The Human decides it ends, not when the dog decides. If you encourage/allow your dog to become a fetch addict, you'll have a very difficult time if he becomes injured or ill, or if there's weather so harsh that fetch is not an option. I learned this one the hard way.

I'll say it again ~ border collies crave mental activity with humans. They're bred for this kind of activity. You have to fill that need.

Good luck! Please let us know how you get on with your boy. These dogs are awesome companions, but it takes work to meet their mental/physical needs.

Ruth & Gibbs

ETA ~ What Mana19 says about training to see the crate as a 'happy place' is crucial as well. If all this advice seems overwhelming, go at it bit by bit. I'd start with a little trick training and some 'enhancement' in his crate. Also, I've got my 4th border collie right now. I learned what I shared above through reading posts on these boards by people with far more experience than mine. Current bc benefits enormously from that received wisdom.

 

 

[Jeana W]

Thank you all for your replies and information.  Bernie is crate trained.  He took to it pretty early on and usually does good.  When Mabel is here is just won't settle down.  He just wants to keep playing and doesn't realize he is tired and needs to rest.  He does have chews, Kongs, puzzle bowls and all kinds of toys that we rotate in and out.   

We do try to get Bernie to sit and relax with the outside noises and reward him.  He just gets so fearful and focused it is hard to keep his attention, even with treats. We can't figure out how to break that focus.  

He gets 2-3 30-40 minute walks a day and goes outside and plays fetch, tug and he loves to chase the football when my son and husband throw it.  We have been trying to think of ways to exercise his brain.  It seems like what we find he figures out quickly and isn't challenged. He is very smart and we can see him trying to figure things out

We work on the training with what we learned from the trainer but I am seeing it is not enough. I have never heard of "nose work" but will be looking into it and seeing if there is a local trainer who offers this.  I will also look into the book.  He does really well with his training sessions and we make sure to not push him and to always end on a positive.  

When we decided to get a BC, we knew they are a very energetic & intelligent dog and they would be a lot of work but we are finding it is more than we imagined. 

Thank you all again for your help and advice.  I will continue to read through the forums for further information.  

Jeana

[urge to herd]

Janna, thanks for the further info. Another suggestion ~ if he's fearful of noises, teach him 'look at me'. Start by just teaching him 'look at me'. He looks at you, you toss him a treat so that he has to move a few steps to get it. Get that one down. When he's solid on the 'look at me', add in a noise that will startle him but not scare him, if you can. Create the noise and as soon as he turns his head to investigate cue 'Look at me'. When he looks at you, toss treat. Repeat, with very slowly escalating noises. You might want to use really great treats that you only use for 'look at me'. Tiny cheese cubes, hot dog slices, etc. And you may already know this, but several brief training sessions throughout the day are better than 2 or 3 longer ones. Keep him guessing.

When you've got the 'look at me' down well you can start using it when he gets scared by a noise. Oh, and if you have fireworks in the neighborhood at 4th of July, New Year's Eve, etc, ask your vet for a few tranquilizer pills. He might be able sleep through all the commotion.

I feel for you. My 2nd bc had been badly treated/neglected for a couple years before she came to us. On top of that, she'd been with another dog in that awful situation and of course they'd bonded. When Shoshone came to us she had a lot to learn ~ housebreaking, humans constantly around her, and the loss of her close friend, who had gone to another adopter. I had a lot to learn, too, she needed to be managed/treated much differently than any of my previous dogs. I had to learn new techniques for working with her.

Best of luck with your boy! Please let us know how you get on.

Ruth & Gibbs

[GentleLake]

A few things I'd like to add, in no specific order of importance, to the great suggestions you've already gotten. One is Emma Parson's Click to Calm protocol and book. Don't be put off by it's being for aggressive dogs. It works equally well for fearful/reactive/over-excited dogs too.

Also look into Leslie McDevitt's Look at That game, basically the same thing that Ruth describes with the "look at me" training, but ever so slightly different in intent and laid out in the 2nd (so-called puppy) edition of her book Control Unleashed.  Both the Click to Calm protocol and Look at That game can be found online, with some good videos demonstrating the techniques.

Yes, physical exercise is important, but try to avoid relying too much on mindless, repetitive exercise like fetch and Frisbee. It can lead to OCD - or more accurately CCD (canine compulsive disorder) - behaviors where the dog can't break focus and you've already said there's some of that going on now. Plus that kind of repetitive motion, especially when it's carried out long enough to tire the dog, is very hard on the joints and can lead to skeletal issues in later life, if not before that. While they run and work long and hard, the exercise traditional working border collies were bred to do is neither mindless nor repetitive. Their brains are fully engaged in the interplay between dog and sheep and the movements are as varied as the terrain and the ways in which the sheep move either with or against them and it has a very different effect on both their minds and their bodies. In fact, if it's something you have the means to pursue, some sheepdog training might also be a big help. Just make sure it's with someone knowledgeable and experienced with working border collies rather than an all breed hobby trainer.

An off leash walk in a field or woods where the dog's free to explore and run at his own pace is far preferable to a game of fetch, especially if you're playing long enough to tire the dog out. If you're dog's not reliable off leash, then try to take leash walks on a long line where he's free to sniff and explore safely to his heart's content. Let it be his walk, not one you control all aspects of.

And lastly, don't forget to quietly praise and reward the unasked for moments of calm and quiet when your dog decided to settle on his own. Far too many people forget to reinforce behavior that they like when it comes on its own, instead only engaging the dog when trying to teach him to behave differently than he is. It's equally important to reinforce desired behavior whenever it occurs, even - especially - when it happens on its own.

Definitely look into nose work (aka scent work) and other brain games for your dogs. Buy or make puzzle toys, snuffle mats, teach your dog the names of his toys, etc. There are plenty of ideas on the internet to pursue.

[beachdogz]

I would like to know more information on his past.  Is he a rescue, or did you get him as a puppy?  What age was he when you got him and where did you get him?  When dealing with a rescue, many times it is impossible to know the dog's past and what led up to his behavior.  However, if gotten as a puppy, it is helpful to analyze what has led up to his behavior at the moment.   I cannot access the link at the end on either of my computers.  Is it a video?

[urge to herd]

     Gentle Lake ~ thanks for this reminder And lastly, don't forget to quietly praise and reward the unasked for moments of cam and quit when your dog decided to settle on his own. Sorry I forgot to include it ~ in my experience this is very, very helpful.

Ruth & Gibbs

[Jeana W]

Urge to herd, he is already trained to look at me but adding the startling noises is a good idea.  Yes we do the several shorter training sessions.  Unfortunately we do have the fireworks and it is more than the Fourth of July.  What are your  thoughts on the CBD treats?  I tried to talk to my vet about them but was told since they are not FDA approved they could not say one way or the other.  I was just told to do research to educate myself.  If we decide not use them I am sure my vet will help with a tranquilizer.  What a sad situation your Shoshone came from.  We got Bernie as a puppy from a breeder.  We picked him up at 7 weeks.  He is actually my sons dog but we all work with him with his training, playing and everything else.  The advice has been so helpful.  I already ordered the book of tricks.  

Gentle lake, thank you for the book recommendations.  I am going to look into them.  The repetitive exercise makes so much sense with him.  We do try to keep him from going to long or hard and try to keep him from jumping a lot for the very reason you mentioned about his joints.  It is interesting that mentioned the training for their actual jobs.  When he is out playing he will get in what I call the BC crouch and just waits, watches and you can see him thinking.  

He cannot be off leash right now.  We do have a long leash we can use and after reading your advice I realize I am not walking him right.  I try to keep him next to me in a heel and thought it would be better to have him walk with me.  I will just let him do his walk now.  Our trainer told us the same thing with the praising when he is being calm on his own.  We have been forgetting that.  

The one thing with his toys is he likes to tear them up as soon as he gets them.  We do let him go at it and watch to make sure he isn't swallowing things he should not be.  We did get a puzzle bowl and a puzzle game for him.  He looked at them and within a minute was  tipping them over and dumping everything out.  We have been on the hunt for something that he has to really work at and can't just chew up.  

 

Beachdogz, the breeder we got him from was in the middle of nowhere and we picked him up in Feb.  We thought being brought to the suburbs was going to be an adjustment.  When spring came it was a challenge having him outside and we thought he over came his fears.  He did so good for so long and just recently he became fearful again.  We just haven't been able to figure out why.  I believe the link you can't see is his picture I posted.  

I am so happy for all of the advice and reminders and am excited to help Bernie .  He is already such an awesome dog and we just want to do what's best for him.  

 

 

[Journey]

Another side thought..he could be going through a fear period right now. As with the above info keep this in mind. It too goes a long way with quiet calm praise and a more or less nonchalant attitude, like "that scary thing is no big deal", let's move on. Not exactly ignoring the behavior but not feeding either positively or negatively.

[GentleLake]

Yikes, Ruth! I've edited that sentence to correct spelling.

Jeana, if he's tearing up (plush?) toys then don't give him plush toys - or at least don't let him play with them unsupervised - unless you don't mind spending money for short lived toys. There are none in my house for that very reason. Instead my dogs play with tougher rubber toys and rope toys.

And Journey's right to suggest that at his age Bernie could well indeed be going through a fear period. Don't cater to or reinforce his fears but stay calm and matter of fact about the things that set him off and he should grow out of it if that's what it is.

[urge to herd]

For a toy that he can't just dump out, try an IQ Treat Ball, you can see what they look like on Amazon. The ball is rigid plastic, it has one hole for kibble to fall out of. You unscrew the two parts, drop in some kibble or hard treats of any kind, screw the 2 parts back together and drop it on the floor. My Gibbs gets half of each meal in some kind of thingy that makes him work at least a little.

Don't fall for the advertising ~ 'Hours of fun for your dog!' All of my dogs have gotten the food out of the whateveritis in under 4 minutes. 

You're doing great!

Ruth & Gibbs

 

[Mana19]

17 hours ago, GentleLake said:

A few things I'd like to add, in no specific order of importance, to the great suggestions you've already gotten. One is Emma Parson's Click to Calm protocol and book. Don't be put off by it's being for aggressive dogs. It works equally well for fearful/reactive/over-excited dogs too.

Also look into Leslie McDevitt's Look at That game, basically the same thing that Ruth describes with the "look at me" training, but ever so slightly different in intent and laid out in the 2nd (so-called puppy) edition of her book Control Unleashed.  Both the Click to Calm protocol and Look at That game can be found online, with some good videos demonstrating the techniques.

Yes, physical exercise is important, but try to avoid relying too much on mindless, repetitive exercise like fetch and Frisbee. It can lead to OCD - or more accurately CCD (canine compulsive disorder) - behaviors where the dog can't break focus and you've already said there's some of that going on now. Plus that kind of repetitive motion, especially when it's carried out long enough to tire the dog, is very hard on the joints and can lead to skeletal issues in later life, if not before that. While they run and work long and hard, the exercise traditional working border collies were bred to do is neither mindless nor repetitive. Their brains are fully engaged in the interplay between dog and sheep and the movements are as varied as the terrain and the ways in which the sheep move either with or against them and it has a very different effect on both their minds and their bodies. In fact, if it's something you have the means to pursue, some sheepdog training might also be a big help. Just make sure it's with someone knowledgeable and experienced with working border collies rather than an all breed hobby trainer.

An off leash walk in a field or woods where the dog's free to explore and run at his own pace is far preferable to a game of fetch, especially if you're playing long enough to tire the dog out. If you're dog's not reliable off leash, then try to take leash walks on a long line where he's free to sniff and explore safely to his heart's content. Let it be his walk, not one you control all aspects of.

And lastly, don't forget to quietly praise and reward the unasked for moments of calm and quiet when your dog decided to settle on his own. Far too many people forget to reinforce behavior that they like when it comes on its own, instead only engaging the dog when trying to teach him to behave differently than he is. It's equally important to reinforce desired behavior whenever it occurs, even - especially - when it happens on its own.

Definitely look into nose work (aka scent work) and other brain games for your dogs. Buy or make puzzle toys, snuffle mats, teach your dog the names of his toys, etc. There are plenty of ideas on the internet to pursue.

I do agree with a lot you have to say but all of the issues you describe around fetch are resolved through better handling. When I play fetch with my border I avoid sudden sharp rotations, stop/start motions and other things that cause the strain which leads to damage. It's definitely not a mindless game when we play it. We train positioning commands, obedience, fun tricks and fetch is the currency.  I introduce short breaks often where you combine it with stay training, leave it, speak etc. We never go too long and she definitely is not even remotely obsessed with it. It's a high value reward because I spent ages building value into the toys by playing tug etc. If you are smart and measured fetch is perfect for a daily exercise. The science doesn't really back all these claims that 'they weren't built for this'. My dog has been doing it for years and the veterinarian reports she couldn't be in better health and I am not over doing it.

It's absurd, you can take any dog bred for running especially and get the same results if you place too much strain on their physiology. It's not a breed thing, it's physics. You have to be wise and creative.

[urge to herd]

About the CBD treats ~  there's not any info I can find about research into use  of CBD oil for dogs that I can find. I wouldn't chance it. 

Ah HA! I got my vet to give me some doggy prozac for Shoshone, didn't do a thing for her. She was having issues with the other critters in the house. Asked the vet if there was anything else he could suggest. He gave me some clomiprimine, (clomicalm is the trade name) and it worked like gangbusters. She was a different dog within a couple days. I had a friend at the time who has Tourette's Syndrome, which means she made sounds and movements all the time. Shoshone was terrified of her. Well, my friend dropped by unexpectedly about a week after we'd started Shonie on Clomicalm.  Friend came in, got down on the floor to play with the dogs, I left the room for a minute . . . when I came back Shonie was ON MY FRIEND'S LAP! Friend was petting her, and cooing to her and Shonie loved it. Friend and I were both pleasantly shocked.

We kept Shonie on that med until she passed away. She was happier, calmer and all around easier to live with.

Ruth & Gibbs

[D'Elle]

Just to respond to the CBD concern:

My vet carries the CBD treats for dogs, and recommends them in certain circumstances. I gave them to one of my dogs when he was near the end of his life and it seemed to help him. They are super expensive, though, and just a drop or two of CBD tincture does the same for far less money.

I have an elder dog now, and I give him (again, on my excellent vet's recommendation) CBD oil daily to help with his arthritis pain. It does seem to make a difference. there's no need to buy "CBD Oil For Dogs", because CBD is CBD, and it is going to be the exact same thing. Calling it "for dogs" is just a gimmick in order to charge more for it. There's no "formulation" to CBD oil....it is just a simple tincture. 

The only thing you need to be careful of is the dosage. Find out what dosage is best for your dog's weight and start with an amount less than that, building up slowly if need be. Also, be aware that CBD oil comes in different concentrations, everything from 60mg per ml to 1200 mg per ml, so you have to take that into account and do the math to come out with the right dosage. Of course "CBD for dogs" will have the dosage on the bottle, but just to avoid doing 2 minute's worth of figuring you will pay a whole lot of money.

Buy CBD oil only from a reputable dispensary, or from a brand you know you can trust because online there are a lot of scams....you can pay a lot for just plain coconut oil. I know Global Xtracts is a good brand. That is the one I use on myself and with my dogs.

 

[Jeana W]

Thanks Journey, I didn't think of it being a fear period.  It is hard to remember sometimes that he is still a puppy.  

Bernie is not unattended with his new toys.  We have pretty much given up on anything plush. He does have rubber toys and we had to give up on ropes as well.  He has them in shreds in no time.  We did find out the hard way that "hours of fun" is only just a couple of minutes.  I will look into the IQ balls. 

Ruth, were there any side effects with the clomiprimine?  

D'Elle thanks for the information on the CBD.  Again the same question, has there been any side effects when you gave it to your dogs?

 

[alligande]

You have been given excellent advice so far. Regarding using that highly intelligent brain, get the clicker out and teach stupid pet tricks, they have no consequence if they go wrong. One of our rescue border collies had never been taught to “learn” and 10 minutes of track training on a cold New England day would exhaust him more than a 10 mile walk. My current 2 we got as puppies and both started clicker training as babies and it doesn’t have the same effect on them but it does settle them down and we all have a bit of fun doing something pointless. 
Another consideration is exercise without fetch, my older boy is obsessed with anything that can be thrown, so on walks we simply don’t throw things for him, we want him exploring and sniffing, being a dog, at the end of those walks he is much more relaxed than if we thrown toys for him. He is 12 now and it’s the same as when he was 2. 

[Michael Parkey]

The fetch boogeyman has returned.  Levi loves fetch, and we often play "adventure fetch" with him.  We are lucky to have a very natural greenbelt nearby, with woods, meadows, and a clean creek.  Levi must negotiate varied terrain, sometimes swimming to find the ball.  It is fascinating to watch him track the ball, first with sight and sound when the ball is moving.  If the ball stops out of direct sight, he switches  to nose work, sniffing out the ball in some very obscure places.  One throw will sometimes occupy him for 10 or 15 minutes as he slowly and methodically searches a likely area.  I have learned so much about how dogs perceive the world from watching him do this.

This game engages all his abilities.  We can use herding type commands to direct him if he if he needs a little help.  The game also keeps his attention focused on us so that off-leash distractions are not so tempting.

Levi is now 3 1/2, and this game developed slowly over several years starting when he was 8 months old.  You might start Bernie with simple fetch without emphasizing the "chase and catch " part, instead focusing on the "find the toy" part.

[urge to herd]

13 hours ago, Jeana W said:

Ruth, were there any side effects with the clomiprimine? 

    Jeana, not that I remember. She passed away about at least 8 years ago, maybe 9, she was at least 11, possibly older, and had some other physical issues. The only change in her behavior was that fear of new people and new situations was totally gone.                                                                                                                                            There are some side effects listed for dogs, but Shonie had none of them. I don't think it was all that expensive, either.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

 

 

[D'Elle]

On 10/7/2021 at 6:22 PM, Jeana W said:

  

D'Elle thanks for the information on the CBD.  Again the same question, has there been any side effects when you gave it to your dogs?

 

No side effects at all. I would not actually recommend something that had side effects. :-)