Red Dirt Border Collie Ranch

[Shetlander]

I can agree with that, Liz. But again, I'm making a distinction between a working border collie and a working dog.

 

I understand.

[geonni banner]

So how about a fictitious walk into the future of the Border Collie?...

 

The story of the "Stockman's Collie."

 

http://pedanticmystic.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-once-and-future-collie.html

[TEC]

... I guess we are all just ignorant Americans.

 

Wait, Wait, I don't want to be in the "all". My mother and several schools would disagree with Mumdog. Mum24dog may have overlooked that the US retained many English traditions as of Independence from Great Britain, but subsequently we took only what we liked .

 

I'm just an American, of the US, who is trying to figure out the nuances of our rich English language .

 

So how about a fictitious walk into the future of the Border Collie?...

 

The story of the "Stockman's Collie."

 

http://pedanticmystic.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-once-and-future-collie.html

 

That was fun. I've heard in Austria both parents have to prove their ability before a puppy can be registered. I'll bet they have medical criteria as well. -- TEC

[Shetlander]

I can't help thinking that there are more important things to worry about than artificial name tags

.

Well, there's Russia and the Ukraine. But I'd rather think about what we call dogs.

[Flamincomet]

Again, in the strictest sense of working border collies, this is an example of a dog working rather than a working dog.

 

It's a nuanced distinction to be sure, but a distinction nonetheless, imo.

 

ETA: Not that I'd be making a fuss about the distinction in a case like the one you mention with the parents. It's certainly an appropriate use of the phrase in that situation.

 

Oy vey. Such an intricate an imprecise language we speak.

 

If the debate here is what to call working (as in herding) border collies, I do not think working dog is a correct term. It will only confuse as this term has already been adopted by many communities and the public to mean something quite different. Working border collie, or working sheepdog I think would be more clear, I don't think I would call my dog either of these, but he certainly is a working dog.

[Smalahundur]

No wonder it's so widely held that English s one of the most difficult languages for a non-native speaker to learn and master.

if you did not mean that ironic Í would say try Finnish....

[Pippin's person]

 

No wonder it's so widely held that English s one of the most difficult languages for a non-native speaker to learn and master.

Mostly widely held among monolingual English speakers....

[mum24dog]

 

Simply stated, we are not coming from the same culture with regards to the dogs and their historical purpose. I guess we are all just ignorant Americans.

 

 

I keep being told that the general US public is deeply ignorant of the world of working dogs and it is that ignorance to which I was referring. If it isn't true then the wrong message has been given on here on numerous occasions.

[mum24dog]

That's a very excellent point.

 

So are you suggesting that we all start just calling them dogs?

 

 

 

True. But I enjoy a good theoretical discussion.

 

 

I'm not suggesting anything other than that a dog is as a dog does and people should continue to call them whatever is in common use and mutually comprehensible in whatever social sub group they find themselves at the time. It won't alter the nature of the dog. "A rose by any other name" etc.

 

If I'm talking to a farmer I will call his sheepdog a dog. If I'm amongst the general public or my agility friends I would call the same dog a collie. I don't mix with BC show people if I can help it because my blood pressure won't stand it.

 

The only place I call them Border Collies is on here because other people do. (I use other cross Atlantic terms here that I don't use normally too.) If I started to call the dogs I meet Border Collies I would risk being thought of as someone who doesn't really know much about dogs or at best is pretentious.

 

(If I were wanting to buy a pup I would ignore an advert for Border Collie pups but might respond to one that called them collies or working sheepdogs.)

 

If you're not sure of who you are talking to here "collie" has the best chance of being understood.

 

I enjoy a theoretical discussion too but it doesn't affect what goes on it the world beyond the keyboard. No amount of indignation about the "theft" of a name is going to make one jot of difference.

[GentleLake]

Mostly widely held among monolingual English speakers....

 

Definitely not trying to be argumentative just for the sake of it, but when I was teaching I ran into a fair number of international students who were multilingual and who generally complained about how challenging it was to learn English.

 

One of the reasons is that English has borrowed so intensively from other languages, more so than most other languages have, that there seem to be more exceptions to the rules than there are rules of syntax and grammar.

 

ETA: Not to mention spelling and pronunciation.

[Tommy Coyote]

English has so many ways to describe things. I run into trouble all the time with people trying to tell me when they need me to take care of their animals. On Monday they will tell me they need me "next Tuesday." So does that mean Tuesday tomorrow or Tuesday next week? If it's Sunday and they say they need me next week does that mean this coming Monday or next Monday? There are just so many different ways to say the same thing - or they may say the same thing and mean something completely different. I finally gave up and always ask for the actual date and time so there is no question.

[Shetlander]

There are just so many different ways to say the same thing - or they may say the same thing and mean something completely different. I finally gave up and always ask for the actual date and time so there is no question.

 

That is safest. I usually say "this Tuesday" for Tuesday this week and "next Tuesday" for Tuesday next week, but I know that is just me. I also use dates for that kind of thing, especially with my pet sitters!

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, as a native English speaker, I have found the Romance (are they still called that?) languages relatively easy to learn, but admit to being fairly well stymied by Danish (and thus think that most Scandinavian/Nordic languages would be equally difficult). Greek isn't bad, and I found Russian fairly understandable in the introductory class I once took. I think the languages of Asian people would be rather difficult as well. I guess it's all relative....

J.

[Sue R]

If I'm talking to a farmer I will call his sheepdog a dog. If I'm amongst the general public or my agility friends I would call the same dog a collie. I don't mix with BC show people if I can help it because my blood pressure won't stand it.

The only place I call them Border Collies is on here because other people do. (I use other cross Atlantic terms here that I don't use normally too.)...(If I were wanting to buy a pup I would ignore an advert for Border Collie pups but might respond to one that called them collies or working sheepdogs.)

 

If you're not sure of who you are talking to here "collie" has the best chance of being understood.

True. Thanks!

I enjoy a theoretical discussion too but it doesn't affect what goes on it the world beyond the keyboard. No amount of indignation about the "theft" of a name is going to make one jot of difference.

But if you can help someone understand, it does make a difference.

 

Edited because I was unclear...

[TEC]

... I enjoy a theoretical discussion too but it doesn't affect what goes on it the world beyond the keyboard. No amount of indignation about the "theft" of a name is going to make one jot of difference.

Righteous indignation in itself may not go very far, but communicating in an educational way will make a difference.

 

I want enthusiasts (and to-be dog owners) to know that a segment of dogs sold as Border Collies are not the real thing, in order that they have the opportunity to understand why it should matter to them. They should be made aware of how to increase the likelihood of finding a Border Collie that has working (as in stockwork) abilities. Ignorance is bliss. Perhaps education will make a person woeful in a good way, which will influence him/her to acquire the right dog, make the right breeding decision, or even read BC history.

 

I say take a clear stand and, in appropriate circumstances, express it. If a thief takes a person's dirt bike, and modifies it with roof, bench seat and doors, the aggrieved party isn't liable to hand him/her the keys and title, and watch it being driven back and forth in front of his home. He is going to do something about it.

 

Why not do what a person is able to do about wrongfully taking a name, reputation and chromosomes? It will make a difference. -- TEC

[Liz P]

I feel so lucky that when I was a kid and wanted a dog of my own that my Mom, having spent summers in TX around Border Collies, bought me one off a working farm. I never knew any Border Collies who were not working bred until I was an adult. Then I met some sport, pet and show bred dogs. They just weren't quite the same. It's hard to put your finger on it, but they lack that extra something. It's kind of like trying to recreate a special recipe but you are missing the secrete ingredient. It tastes similar but it doesn't excite you like the real thing.

 

For that reason I will never own anything but a working bred Border Collie. When I am old and retired I will give homes to retired working dogs. I will not settle for an imitation.

[Root Beer]

So are you suggesting that we all start just calling them dogs?

 

Yeah, see, that's why Dean's name is Dean Dog. To indicate that he's a Border Collie.

 

I took it for granted that you all knew that . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Joking - I have no recollection of where that came from, which is weird to me, so I tend to think it was just alliteration which I find as compelling as theoretical discussions for some reason that is not known to me . . . )

[Shetlander]

Yeah, see, that's why Dean's name is Dean Dog. To indicate that he's a Border Collie.

 

I took it for granted that you all knew that . . .

 

(Joking - I have no recollection of where that came from, which is weird to me, so I tend to think it was just alliteration which I find as compelling as theoretical discussions for some reason that is not known to me . . . )

 

Oh, no that can't be the case! My first Sheltie's nickname was Mr. Dog and he wasn't a Border Collie, not even a fake one! Though he was black and white. Hmmm.

 

Like you, I have no idea how that name started, but I used it so much that some people thought that was his real name.

[Pippin's person]

 

Definitely not trying to be argumentative just for the sake of it, but when I was teaching I ran into a fair number of international students who were multilingual and who generally complained about how challenging it was to learn English.

 

One of the reasons is that English has borrowed so intensively from other languages, more so than most other languages have, that there seem to be more exceptions to the rules than there are rules of syntax and grammar.

 

ETA: Not to mention spelling and pronunciation.

All friendly discussion. I don't know if you were teaching adults, but if so, adults will typically complain about the language they're learning and they're right to because learning a language is a lot tougher for adults in general. Ask a speaker of Arabic, German, French, Japanese, Tagalog, Ojibwe, Bengali,etc and they'll generally all note how difficult their language is to learn and in a sense they're right. All languages have their tricky spots and easier spots (like Julie said, it's relative). English inflectional grammar is quite simple, for instance, relative to many other languages. It's true that English is a borrow-friendly language and that can make English spelling a bear (along with the flukes of history that codified the spelling system just as a massive shift in the entire vowel system was underway), but that has a relatively minor effect on the rest of the grammar.

 

I guess my point for posting that was two-fold--English isn't particularly more or less difficult all else being equal (which of course it rarely is) but also that the problems being discussed about word meaning shifts aren't unique to English--those problems are true of word meaning generally regardless of the specific language. To me, part of what's really interesting is how people discuss, negotiate and manage/adapt meaning. I find it hard not to call my sport-bred Border Collie a Border Collie. even though, at some level, I do not see her as a legitimate Border Collie in the way I do my working bred dogs. Curious stuff.

[sandysfarm]

English is a real "dive-in" language, free of gendered nouns (german uses masculine, feminine and a neutral). It's generally uncluttered to decline (I work, you work, he works) and you can bend the rules until you are proficient and still be understood. ("he work with me today"). Some of those germanic languages, whoa - part of my family is half Danish and there's no comparison - there's no such thing as pigeon-danish. )

[mum24dog]

English is a real "dive-in" language, free of gendered nouns (german uses masculine, feminine and a neutral). It's generally uncluttered to decline (I work, you work, he works) and you can bend the rules until you are proficient and still be understood. ("he work with me today"). Some of those germanic languages, whoa - part of my family is half Danish and there's no comparison - there's no such thing as pigeon-danish. )

I like the description "dive in".

 

If you have a good grounding in Latin it makes it easier to grasp both Romance and Germanic languages, I find. I didn't find German as easy to learn as French at school though; the extreme rigidity of grammatical construction is an extra step for a native English speaker.

 

Still, there's no real incentive to learn German. My monolingual husband works quite often in Switzerland and Germany teaching presentation skills and manages fine. The French, on the other hand - they like to make us sweat even if they speak English.

 

English, of course, is the lingua franca of the world partly because of the legacy of the British Empire and latterly because of the economic influence of the US. My daughter has attended seminars in France, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Germany and Iceland - all in English. It can't be that hard to learn.

 

Easy to learn but not necessarily easy to achieve mutual comprehensibility. The vocabulary of English is huge and you'd think that would make it possible to have just one word for one thing but it doesn't work that way. We have such a wide vocabulary because we have several words for the same thing.

 

And bringing us back to dogs, it is not surprising that dog, sheepdog, working dog, working sheepdog, collie, border collie can all mean exactly the same thing - or not!

[sandysfarm]

mum24dog: "...teaching presentation skills and manages fine. The French, on the other hand - they like to make us sweat even if they speak English."

 

this makes me laugh because I'm in Canada and we're bilingual english and french, yes. Unless we're breezing through Quebec, where suddenly it's more like

"speak french or p--s off". lol

[simba]

Only encountered French French-speakers, but the ones I've met seem pretty happy to talk to you if you garble French phrases at them apologetically. I've had people act out farm animals to tell me what meat I could buy, or shout their three English phrases joyously at me across a cafe. I think it might be a bit of a perception thing- if try a mispronounced word people will know you don't have the 'English or gtfo' attitude which, unfortunately, exists.

 

One of my earliest internet smackdowns was by someone who was insistent that I couldn't use the word 'collie' by itself for anything but a purebred AKC or KC 'rough collie'. Anything else was ill-educated. Even in colloquial use. It's not that they were pompous, it was the sheer magnitude of the wrongness.

[mum24dog]

mum24dog: "...teaching presentation skills and manages fine. The French, on the other hand - they like to make us sweat even if they speak English."

 

this makes me laugh because I'm in Canada and we're bilingual english and french, yes. Unless we're breezing through Quebec, where suddenly it's more like

"speak french or p--s off". lol

 

 

Actually I found the French Canadians in Montreal more appreciative of my speaking French than the French when I lived in France or when I've been back.

 

Maybe it's because we're still culturally at war with the French but not with the Quebecois? (Sorry, can't find accents on here.)

[sandysfarm]

 

 

Actually I found the French Canadians in Montreal more appreciative of my speaking French than the French when I lived in France or when I've been back.

 

Maybe it's because we're still culturally at war with the French but not with the Quebecois? (Sorry, can't find accents on here.)

 

 

 

I don't know of anyone who's culturally at war with France so don't have an opinion there. Most quebecois speak the provincial dialect, which a person in France would find difficult to understand and impossible to reproduce, there being no connection anymore between France and Quebec. Within Quebec there is an ongoing and pervasive quebec for the quebecois, french-not-english culture. There are extremely onerous language laws and so-called "language police" to back them up. If you're being waved at and befriended as an english-speaker, your new friend is more likely to be bilingual english still living in the province - the general population would prefer not to hear you.