Red Dirt Border Collie Ranch

[alligande]

I agree with you Sue, my dog is my team mate in agility, he is not working but playing a game with me. When we train together it is not work but improving our skills, just like running drills or doing batting practise if I competed in another sport, we are not pros so it's not our job, it's our hobby.

A working dog to me is a sheep dog, my neighbors explosive dog, service dog, police dog, ag dog etc. these dogs work most days and what they do is work. I know service dogs who compete in agility as their hobby.

[geonni banner]

There are many Border Collie owners who think of their dogs as working dogs. There are Border Collies in search & rescue, cadaver work, assistance work and many other useful kinds of work. The people who train and compete with their Border Collies in various sports all work very hard with their dogs, as do the dogs themselves. But are they working Border Collies, or Border Collies working? And if they are all Border Collies, how can you tell without a handy pasture-full of sheep, goats, cattle or other livestock? The sad truth is; you can’t.

 

Most of the dogs in professions like drug-sniffing, search and rescue, etc. are trained using methods that make the work into a sort of game. the dog is given rewards of food or toys, etc. The dog learns the work by having it turned into a kind of play. A cadaver dog is not born with a desire and ability to hunt for dead people, and an agility dog does not walk onto a course for the first time and think, "Ah-ha! A tunnel, I must run through it very fast."

 

A stockdog who is working sheep or cattle is not playing. It comes into the round-pen or pasture for the first time with a tool kit which it instinctively puts to use. Of course it receives training, but the training is designed to fine-tune the tool-use and establish a language to partner with the handler. The work is motivation and reward form day one. It is the dog's work, and he is serious about it. The stockdog that also does agility may be very keen and competitive, but he is playing, not working. And his manner in each endeavor shows the difference.

[Pam Wolf]

well said geonni!

[Root Beer]

But I personally won't say that every dog that does something is a working dog (as the one trainer did as describwd above). That's not how I use the word. You can use it however you choose. I don't intend to get into an endless war over words as has often happenwd here before.

 

No, I wouldn't say that, either.

 

But I do recognize that in the human world artists work, writers work, gym teachers work, baseball players work, professional musicians work. While nobody would call any of that "hard labor", the word "work" still properly applies.

 

Those dog owners/handlers/trainers who use the word more broadly have as much right to use of the term "work" as those whose dogs do stockwork.

 

I don't intend to get into an endless war over words, either.

 

At the end of the day, we will all use the words that we see fit to use.

[Sue R]

There are many Border Collie owners who think of their dogs as working dogs. There are Border Collies in search & rescue, cadaver work, assistance work and many other useful kinds of work. The people who train and compete with their Border Collies in various sports all work very hard with their dogs, as do the dogs themselves. But are they working Border Collies, or Border Collies working? And if they are all Border Collies, how can you tell without a handy pasture-full of sheep, goats, cattle or other livestock? The sad truth is; you can’t.

 

Most of the dogs in professions like drug-sniffing, search and rescue, etc. are trained using methods that make the work into a sort of game. the dog is given rewards of food or toys, etc. The dog learns the work by having it turned into a kind of play. A cadaver dog is not born with a desire and ability to hunt for dead people, and an agility dog does not walk onto a course for the first time and think, "Ah-ha! A tunnel, I must run through it very fast."

 

A stockdog who is working sheep or cattle is not playing. It comes into the round-pen or pasture for the first time with a tool kit which it instinctively puts to use. Of course it receives training, but the training is designed to fine-tune the tool-use and establish a language to partner with the handler. The work is motivation and reward form day one. It is the dog's work, and he is serious about it. The stockdog that also does agility may be very keen and competitive, but he is playing, not working. And his manner in each endeavor shows the difference.

Yes, very well said! I like the part about "working Border Collies or Border Collies working". I have total respect for dogs that do many things, whether it's stock work, SAR, therapy, guide, sniffer jobs (bomb, drugs, etc.), cadaver - and those that are performance dogs and pets, too. I just don't care to use the phrase "working Border Collie" (almost as if it's the breed name) for dogs that don't work stock. Or to say that a dog is a "working dog" when it's doing a fun pursuit. That's just me.

[GentleLake]

Yes, very well said! I like the part about "working Border Collies or Border Collies working". I have total respect for dogs that do many things, whether it's stock work, SAR, therapy, guide, sniffer jobs (bomb, drugs, etc.), cadaver - and those that are performance dogs and pets, too. I just don't care to use the phrase "working Border Collie" (almost as if it's the breed name) for dogs that don't work stock. Or to say that a dog is a "working dog" when it's doing a fun pursuit. That's just me.

 

 

Agreed.

 

I'd extend not wanting to call it a "working dog" even when the pursuit is not necessarily strictly fun, as in SAR, service, therapy, police-type, etc., but is not the kind of "work" the dog was bred to do.

[Sue R]

Agreed.

 

I'd extend not wanting to call it a "working dog" even when the pursuit is not necessarily strictly fun, as in SAR, service, therapy, police-type, etc., but is not the kind of "work" the dog was bred to do.

The difference between a "dog that works" and a "working dog", perhaps.

[GentleLake]

^^ Yep. Exactly!

[Smalahundur]

At the end of the day, we will all use the words that we see fit to use.

And to avoid such misunderstandings, in Holland we oft use the addition "in engere zin" in such cases where there is a more specific meaning than the broader one.

It would be appropriate to use that with bordercollie work, it is work "in engere zin", meaning the specific meaning of stockwork.

I am sure there must be an english equivalent.

[Shetlander]

I'd extend not wanting to call it a "working dog" even when the pursuit is not necessarily strictly fun, as in SAR, service, therapy, police-type, etc., but is not the kind of "work" the dog was bred to do.

 

Not that my opinion counts for much, since I am not even doing sports with my dogs any more, but I think a police dog who faces danger, injury and death does deserve to be called a working dog. Same thing with bomb sniffing dogs and military dogs, despite how they may be trained. They are not working stock dogs, but any dog who needs to wear a bullet proof vest or whose handler's life may depend on his performance, to me is a working dog.

[TEC]

In US English sometimes, to speak generally, people will modify something with:

 

"speaking broadly"

"generally"

"for the most part"

 

When wishing to be specific:

 

"strictly speaking"

"in a narrow sense"

"narrowly"

"specifically"

 

I'd guess there are many more ways to say the same things, that are not coming to me.

 

In my mind, the following sentence uses the equivalent of "in engere zin": "A working sheep dog, strictly speaking, is a dog that is utilized to manage stock". That may be a courteous way to put it in the presence of those who have hard working dogs who do not move stock. At a stockdog clinic, the speaker would likely leave out the modifying phrase. Smalahundur, some words/phrases do not translate very well. What do you think, did I get the right sense?

 

Doesn't almost every area of endeavor develop jargon? Terminology such as, "Working sheep dog" and "working dog" in reference to stockdogs, has a meaning in stockwork that is quite well defined. Outside stock management, the words "work" and "working" have developed other meanings -- TEC

[GentleLake]

Not that my opinion counts for much, since I am not even doing sports with my dogs any more, but I think a police dog who faces danger, injury and death does deserve to be called a working dog. Same thing with bomb sniffing dogs and military dogs, despite how they may be trained. They are not working stock dogs, but any dog who needs to wear a bullet proof vest or whose handler's life may depend on his performance, to me is a working dog.

 

Yes, but we're talking about border collies here, and how the term "working" applies (or should apply) to border collies.

 

GSDs and other breeds have been bred so long for other types of protection, police, military, etc. work that I don't think it's really, in the strictest sense (in engere zin?), a useful parallel. (Meant with respect, and not to be snarky at all. )

 

Edited to add the quote, as another response came in as I was typing.

[Flamincomet]

Not that my opinion counts for much, since I am not even doing sports with my dogs any more, but I think a police dog who faces danger, injury and death does deserve to be called a working dog. Same thing with bomb sniffing dogs and military dogs, despite how they may be trained. They are not working stock dogs, but any dog who needs to wear a bullet proof vest or whose handler's life may depend on his performance, to me is a working dog.

 

I agree, and I'd put service dogs in with working dogs. Their handler's lives do depend on them. Plus I don't know how many times I hear parents tell their kids they can't pet Link (or another SD) because he's "a working dog."

[Smalahundur]

Yeah, such a modifier is used for the word "work" in this case.

And yes, TEC, I think that would be courteous use, as it implies there is also work in a broader sense for these dogs, of which Rootbeer named a few exemples.

Work "in engere zin" would then for bordercollies always mean stockwork.

[GentleLake]

I agree, and I'd put service dogs in with working dogs. Their handler's lives do depend on them. Plus I don't know how many times I hear parents tell their kids they can't pet Link (or another SD) because he's "a working dog."

 

Again, in the strictest sense of working border collies, this is an example of a dog working rather than a working dog.

 

It's a nuanced distinction to be sure, but a distinction nonetheless, imo.

 

ETA: Not that I'd be making a fuss about the distinction in a case like the one you mention with the parents. It's certainly an appropriate use of the phrase in that situation.

 

Oy vey. Such an intricate an imprecise language we speak.

[TEC]

Oopps, didn't mean to post anything. Evidently hit the wrong key . -- TEC

[TEC]

Oy vey. Such an intricate an imprecise language we speak.

I agree, and then when you add the jargon utilized in so many areas of endeavor, it becomes a mess. -- TEC

[GentleLake]

No wonder it's so widely held that English s one of the most difficult languages for a non-native speaker to learn and master.

[Sue R]

No wonder it's so widely held that English s one of the most difficult languages for a non-native speaker to learn and master.

I'm not very well-spoken but I do feel that words, phrases, sentences, etc., have meaning. And if we don't communicate with meaning, then we can't communicate well, or at least not as well as we should be doing. Remember when we all used to have to "read for comprehension" as part of testing? A big pain it seemed, at least then. Now I realize that for good communication, it's a two-way process. To communicate well, the speaker must express his/her thoughts accurately, and the hearer must interpret/understand those thoughts accurately. If one or both does not, there is no good communication. PS - JMO, plus I'm a pain in the patootie!

[GentleLake]

Wow! I can't disagree with you more.

 

You're very well spoken, Sue.

 

And, yeah, I agree with all the rest of it.

[mum24dog]

The thing I like about "working sheepdog" is that it's probably older that the term "Border Collie." So it's at least as authentic a moniker.

 

The most historically accurate name would, of course, just be "collie," but the conformation folks stole that one a very long time ago, which is what got us started with this name change fiasco in the first place.

 

I had a discussion today on the subject of what the breed is called with two friends, one from a competitive obedience/conformation background (GSDS and BTs) and the other married to a contract farmer. We all agreed that only non farming folk insist that their sheepdogs are Border Collies.

 

People slightly removed from farming call them collies amongst themselves. Those actively using their dogs for work call them dogs and, as my farming connected friend said, a dog is a good dog or a bad dog.

 

And farmers don't specify breed of dog. I learned today why farmers breed so many sprollies (Springer x BC) - they do so to inject more stamina into their dogs, something they feel that BCs can lack. The resulting dogs can still work the sheep to their satisfaction but can keep going for longer. Still called dogs though.

 

I can't swear that the same terminology is countrywide.

 

I do wonder when this topic crops up why what the breed is commonly called in its country of origin by people who use it for the purpose for which it was created is disregarded in the determination to hang onto a label that isn't commonly used by those people just because of the ignorance of the US public.

 

I can't help thinking that there are more important things to worry about than artificial name tags.

[GentleLake]

 

 

I do wonder when this topic crops up why what the breed is commonly called in its country of origin by people who use it for the purpose for which it was created is disregarded in the determination to hang onto a label that isn't commonly used by those people just because of the ignorance of the US public.

 

 

That's a very excellent point.

 

So are you suggesting that we all start just calling them dogs?

 

 

 

 

I can't help thinking that there are more important things to worry about than artificial name tags.

 

True. But I enjoy a good theoretical discussion.

[Sue R]

I do wonder when this topic crops up why what the breed is commonly called in its country of origin by people who use it for the purpose for which it was created is disregarded in the determination to hang onto a label that isn't commonly used by those people just because of the ignorance of the US public.

I think there are multiple reasons - first is that in the UK and Ireland, there is a culture that recognizes these dogs for what they are, and it dates back more than a century. By the time people over in North America became familiar with this dog, the term "collie" had already been associated with Lassie (a Rough collie) and that persists to this day. If someone says "collie" in the USA, the reaction among 99.99% of the population would be to think of the Rough collie. So "collie" over here does not denote the same this is does over your way.

 

Among working sheepdog people over here, I think it's very common for the dogs to be referred to as "the dog". At a clinic or sheepdog trial, no one's walking around talking about "the Border Collie this, and the Border Collie that" unless they are talking to a spectator or novice.

 

Simply stated, we are not coming from the same culture with regards to the dogs and their historical purpose. I guess we are all just ignorant Americans.

[Shetlander]

Again, in the strictest sense of working border collies, this is an example of a dog working rather than a working dog.

 

It's a nuanced distinction to be sure, but a distinction nonetheless, imo.

 

It is a distinction to be made when breeding dogs. I personally am not going to tell someone their service dog isn't a working dog, but that their dog works. For one thing, they'd look at me funny.

[GentleLake]

I can agree with that, Liz. But again, I'm making a distinction between a working border collie and a working dog.