Red Dirt Border Collie Ranch

[GentleLake]

Our dogs have good instincts & have worked in the past. We are planning to add sheep to our operation & be able to produce working dogs in the future. At this time our dogs have good instincts, but we do not misrepresent our dogs/puppies ever, we do not represent them as working dogs.

 

By your own admission, then, you are not breeding from proven working dogs.

 

Preserving the working border collie -- and breeding them for this function and this alone -- is the commitment of the USBCC (i.e. this Board) and the ABCA, though I don't know if that's who you register with.

 

So if you're not representing or breeding them as working dogs, then you're not going to find support here.

 

Just loving your dogs and the breed doesn't qualify anyone as a responsible breeder of border collies! Responsibility to the breed demands that only proven working parents are bred from. Nice family pets just don't qualify.

 

Please do read the links provided above to understand where we're coming from.

[Camden's Mom]

Wow... this is gonna' get crazy, fast. I can already tell.

 

To the breeder: Angela, thank you for registering with the boards and posting your response. Please take SueR's advice and read the articles she linked. It will give you great insight to the philosophy of this board when it comes to breeding BCs. Most people here believe that breeding for working ability is unquestionably the only way to maintain the integrity of the breed and you have admitted that you do not do that. "Our dogs have good instincts & have worked in the past" will assuredly not be enough to satisfy many members of this forum. Here's another link to a very recent thread discussing the importance of breeding working ability above all else. I think of you skim through this you will also get a lot of good info and a sense of the overall opinion of other users: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=36173 I'm glad you are here and I hope you will keep an open mind.

 

To the forum: The breeder has come to these boards to defend herself and clearly took some time to read the thread and address many of the concerns raised about her kennel. Her response was a bit combative, admittedly, but it's obvious she felt under attack. She is here now and we could potentially have a productive conversation with her. If she is to be taken at her word she does her best to provide and care for her breeding dogs and puppies. She tells us she started this kennel because she fell in love with the breed which means she'd probably be open to improving and understanding the breed better. I know many of you will never agree with her breeding practices, but I'd suggest trying to talk and inform her, assuming she's open to hearing our perspective.

[G. Festerling]

It never fails to amaze me how people go against the grain for their own LIKES and WANTS. Then turn around and want to justify it. The whole "defense" is mounted on comments around color. If these dogs work, you have had plenty of colored litters before, and you want to mount a good "defense", then show them working.

 

I don't think I commented to this thread before, since they never end well....but honestly the term "ranch" in connection with dogs bothers me to begin with! But that matters very little I suppose.

[Tommy Coyote]

Whoa Nellie!

 

Would like to say that I have a white dog out of proven working lines. She's really a tri but mostly white. Her sire is Knox's Jim. And her mother is Knox's Dot. Three of the pups out of her litter were mostly white. Nobody was deaf. But they definitely aren't favored. I think lots of working people just prefer the black and white.

[GentleLake]

I'm not sure what point you're making, Tommy Coyote.

 

True, white dogs have always been around, though I think many of them were culled at birth in the old days.

 

I suspect -- though I have no proof -- that the reason they weren't favored could be a higher than average incidence of deafness and possibly other health problems in white and mostly white border collies. Certainly many of them are just fine, though . . . and I'm glad yours is.

[mum24dog]

honestly the term "ranch" in connection with dogs bothers me to begin with!

 

 

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[OurBoys]

Tommy Coyote, the color of the dog's fur doesn't dictate whether the dog is deaf or not. It's the pigmentation of the dog's skin inside the dog's ear that determines if a dog is deaf or not. Naturally, the more white fur a dog has, the less pigmentation in its skin it has. But, with that said, even solid white dogs have some pigmentation (black nose) which is why they can still hear. Here's a link that explains it better than I can.

 

http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/genetics.htm

 

The link also confirms Liz's post in regards to puppy's ear canals being closed for weeks after it's born.

[GentleLake]

Interesting that he states double merles are sterile, which is not true, or at least not always true, as people using the double merle Rough Collie stud can attest.

[ryn]

I have two dogs from Angela, they are awesome... And I love them very much. I have visited them and can confirm all their dogs are healthy taken good care of and well loved by the whole family.

In don't understand what you guys problems are.

I mean if you want that supper XXX champion puppy with parents with titles and all that you just go somewhere else and pay more.

My dogs are the greatest for me anyway. And yours are for you.

Don't be so bitter guys

[GentleLake]

Ryn, we're not being bitter.

 

We're trying to preserve the breed as a breed of true working stockdogs.

 

Since the herding instinct is genetically fragile, often fading in as little as 2 or 3 generations if not specifically bred for, the only way to perpetuate the breed as it was developed is to ensure that breeding is carried out with that principle in mind.

 

There are many breeds of dogs that are great pets, great at dog sports, etc. But there's only one working border collie breed. It's up to breeders to make sure they'll always be that dog.

[OurBoys]

Interesting that he states double merles are sterile, which is not true, or at least not always true, as people using the double merle Rough Collie stud can attest.

 

Actually, he didn't say double merles are sterile. He said

 

"......deafness is often associated with the merle (dapple) gene, which produces a mingled or patchwork combination of dark and light areas. This gene (M) is dominant so that affected dogs (MM) show the pigmentation pattern, which is desirable in many breeds. However, when two dogs heterozygous with merle are bred, 25% will end up with the MM genotype (i.e., Table 1). These dogs usually (emphasis mine) have a solid white coat and blue irises, and often deaf and/or blind, and are sterile."

 

The fact the Westminster Rough Collie has a pigmentation pattern (though not much) and not a solid white coat tells me he's Mm and not MM which could explain why he's not sterile. And even if he was MM, the writer of the article states there's a 25% chance-not a 100%.

[jvw]

Sometimes I feel like before membership is approved for the BC Boards applicants should be REQUIRED to read the "Read This First" post AND pass a quiz to show that they understand the philosophy of these Boards.

 

So frustrating that new comers here without understanding what these Boards are about and just think we are being mean!

 

Head banging icon!

[ryn]

GentleLake, Thank you for your explanation.

But I didn't see many constructive critism in that direction. Rather picking on the little cute white girl... I have held her when I was visiting... It's just not nice picking on that.

Angela didn't say anything like "oh, I have a white dog, she might be blind or deaf, but let's keep her and breed with her for the color".

Their dogs come from working lines and I know some of the guys getting a pup from her have them for working.

I understand your general opinion about preserving the breeds original purpose.

But I didn't see much going in that direction and neither do I think that someone can judge a dogs working ability over the internet.

[ryn]

Jvm: maybe... But maybe some people should also talk to a person or see a dog to judge them first ;-)

[GentleLake]

These dogs usually (emphasis mine) have a solid white coat and blue irises, and often deaf and/or blind, and are sterile."

 

As I read it, the qualifier in the sentence refers to the solid white coat and blue irises. The "and" coming after the commas in this sentence, separate the three distinct issues. Since there is another grammatical error in the sentence, it's hard for anyone to know with complete certainty what he intended.

 

 

......deafness is often associated with the merle (dapple) gene, which produces a mingled or patchwork combination of dark and light areas. This gene (M) is dominant so that affected dogs (MM) show the pigmentation pattern, which is desirable in many breeds. However, when two dogs heterozygous with merle are bred, 25% will end up with the MM genotype (i.e., Table 1).

 

There are other mistakes in this statement.

 

Merle is actually not a gene in itself, but an allele, an alternate form of the gene. As such it modifies normal expression of the gene. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm an English teacher, not a geneticist.)

 

It is written as "M", but only one copy of the allele is necessary to produce the coloration. Therefore, Mm is used to describe a merle with one merle parent and one solid color parent. MM describes a dog that inherited the merle variation from both parents, i.e. a double merle, the product of two merle parents.

 

 

The fact the Westminster Rough Collie has a pigmentation pattern (though not much) and not a solid white coat tells me he's Mm and not MM which could explain why he's not sterile. And even if he was MM, the writer of the article states there's a 25% chance-not a 100%.

 

 

The Westminster dog's sire was acknowledged by the breeder to be MM. Few MM dogs are 100% white. Most have at least a little color on them somewhere.

 

The article author was referring to a 25% chance of heterozygous merles, not 25% chance of sterility.

[GentleLake]

GentleLake, Thank you for your explanation.

But I didn't see many constructive critism in that direction.

 

The OP has been on these boards for several years, and I'm pretty sure we all took for granted that he or she was already familiar with the boards' philosophy.

 

You're coming into an ongoing conversation -- this has been discussed repeatedly and at great length here -- without really being familiar with the back story.

 

 

Their dogs come from working lines and I know some of the guys getting a pup from her have them for working.

 

 

Coming from working lines and breeding from proven working parents is not the same thing. All border collies came from working lines at one point, since originally that all they ever were. But the further away you get from truly proven working parents, the less likely the dogs produced will continue to be capable of working. As I said in my original response to you, the genetics for working ability are very fragile and every breeding away from those genetics dilutes the gene pool. Even breedings from carefully selected working parents don't always produce the hoped for results. What dogs produce is every bit as important as what the parents themselves can do.

 

It's great that some people getting pups from this breeder intend to use them on stock, but do you know for a fact how they actually turned out? Did they live up to expectations? Are they at least accomplished farm dogs able to work livestock and take direction from their handlers? This is the bare minimum required to demonstrate a successful breeding program.

 

neither do I think that someone can judge a dogs working ability over the internet.

 

No, it's unlikely anyone can, unless, of course, it might be in videos of dogs competing in trials or working on their home farms. Even that is inadequate much of the time, as it's just a snippet.

 

This is why we recommend that people go to trials, meet handlers, watch and talk to them about their dogs, and get to know what people are breeding.

 

The fact of the matter is that -- for a variety of reasons -- very few good working breeders can be found advertizing on the internet. If you want a working bred dog, you have to do some homework, not the least of which is seeing the parents working. Of course, by "working" I'm not talking about AKC-type herding trials or instinct testing. I'm talking about true farm and trial work.

[ryn]

GentleLake, what you just wrote was some understandable critic...

But it is not the same stuff in the previous posts which Angela responded to.

It's probably the case that this board does have some different ideas guidelines on how to breed a working border collie.

And Angela never claimed to meet those standards you might have here.

 

What was upsetting me is that it was not said something what you just explained but it made it look like she is breeding potentially blind and deaf dogs and so on.

 

I guess everyone understands the difference between both approaches.

 

Now, how about everyone stops bashing on the keyboard and go out to the dogs ?

[OurBoys]

 

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm an English teacher, not a geneticist.)

 

Well, I'm just a stay-at-home housewife who dabbles in the stock market so genetics aren't my field either. In fact, I find it very confusing so if anybody with more knowledge wants to give their opinion, I'm open.

[Camden's Mom]

GentleLake, what you just wrote was some understandable critic...

But it is not the same stuff in the previous posts which Angela responded to.

It's probably the case that this board does have some different ideas guidelines on how to breed a working border collie.

And Angela never claimed to meet those standards you might have here.

 

What was upsetting me is that it was not said something what you just explained but it made it look like she is breeding potentially blind and deaf dogs and so on.

 

Ryn, you make a very good point here. Re-reading this thread I do think the golden puppy was a bit of a distraction...

 

However, BC board members also gave other reasons to steer the OP away from this breeder, including: A wide selection of colors, selling the puppies on Craigslist and the lack of emphasis on the working ability of the dogs.

 

Angela has acknowledged that: "Now since then we have bought a red & a blue female because we like those colors", so there is a case to be made that she is a color breeder. She has defended selling the puppies on Craigslist because she wants to place them locally and I'll take her at her word on that. On the final point of whether or not the dogs are bred for working ability, it's clear from her own response that isn't a priority in her breeding.

 

My point is, even if you take the golden puppy out of the equation, this is still not a breeder most members of this forum would recommend.

 

This does not mean Angela doesn't properly care for her dogs, provide them with everything they need and love them dearly. But it does mean she's not breeding with the core philosophy of maintaining the breed's working ability. This alone would turn her breeding kennel off to most users here.

[reddirtbordercollies]

You really spend a lot of breath to confirm you are a color breeder. One sentence would have done it.

Also a tip, don't call these very knowledgeable people "stupid", really, how do you think that makes you sound...?

 

You spent a lot of breath making yourself sound like a jerk as well! Re-read my post, I never once called any of the people on this board stupid! Stop putting words in my mouth. I did say some of the comments were stupid, just like the one you made. You seem to be a pot stirrer, if you have nothing helpful to say, don't say anything.

[reddirtbordercollies]

You might wish to read "Read this first" (http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showannouncement=1&f=6) and "Seeking information about getting a Border Collie" (http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=15117, which includes a link to "Tips on Getting a Border Collie") both of which will help explain the philosophy and viewpoints of this forum, and might help you understand why people responded to the OP's questions as they did.

 

Thanks, Sue! I will check them out & I appreciate the helpful comment. I would totally understand if everyone on this Board responded to the OP that it appeared that we did not breed working dogs & that they should advise their friend not to get a pup from us. What I could not understand is that the responses ranged from basically we mistreat our dogs, to we are a puppy mill, to we breed deaf & blind dogs, etc.

[reddirtbordercollies]

By your own admission, then, you are not breeding from proven working dogs.

 

Preserving the working border collie -- and breeding them for this function and this alone -- is the commitment of the USBCC (i.e. this Board) and the ABCA, though I don't know if that's who you register with.

 

So if you're not representing or breeding them as working dogs, then you're not going to find support here.

 

Just loving your dogs and the breed doesn't qualify anyone as a responsible breeder of border collies! Responsibility to the breed demands that only proven working parents are bred from. Nice family pets just don't qualify.

 

Please do read the links provided above to understand where we're coming from.

 

Again, I totally understand where you are coming from. We do not expect to get support here since we are currently not breeding proven working dogs, what we expect is that people do not say we are breeding blind/deaf pups, that we mistreat our dogs & are a puppy mill.

 

We do not EVER represent our dogs as proven working dogs or try to sell them as such. Here is an actual conversation with someone interested in a working dog:

 

• Conversation started August 3, 2013
• 

  8/3, 4:14pm

  Sabrina Dryden

  I'm on a working ranch and have heelers. Husband wants to try a border collie but it has to have a strong working character.
• 

  8/3, 4:27pm

  Angela Smith

  We have raised hogs & the dogs helped with them (moving them from pen to pen.) We are planning to purchase more stock (probably sheep) in the future & be able to provide working dogs. At this time however, I cannot guarantee a strong working character. Although, all of our dogs & puppies have a strong herding instinct. Thanks!
• 

  8/3, 4:30pm

  Thank you for the information and your honesty! I had 3 that I trained a very long time ago and paid serious $ for them. They've since passed and we are just beginning to look again.
• 

  8/3, 4:33pm

  Angela Smith

  You are very welcome! I definitely don't want to mis-represent our dogs. Don't get me wrong they are great dogs & very smart. They could be trained to do just about anything I am sure. Good luck in your search! Border Collies are the best & I am sure you will find one that you will love!
• 

  8/3, 4:36pm

  You were very honest and it is definitely appreciated. I'll talk to my husband and see what he wants to do. Thanks for getting back with me!

[reddirtbordercollies]

Wow... this is gonna' get crazy, fast. I can already tell.

 

To the breeder: Angela, thank you for registering with the boards and posting your response. Please take SueR's advice and read the articles she linked. It will give you great insight to the philosophy of this board when it comes to breeding BCs. Most people here believe that breeding for working ability is unquestionably the only way to maintain the integrity of the breed and you have admitted that you do not do that. "Our dogs have good instincts & have worked in the past" will assuredly not be enough to satisfy many members of this forum. Here's another link to a very recent thread discussing the importance of breeding working ability above all else. I think of you skim through this you will also get a lot of good info and a sense of the overall opinion of other users: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=36173 I'm glad you are here and I hope you will keep an open mind.

 

To the forum: The breeder has come to these boards to defend herself and clearly took some time to read the thread and address many of the concerns raised about her kennel. Her response was a bit combative, admittedly, but it's obvious she felt under attack. She is here now and we could potentially have a productive conversation with her. If she is to be taken at her word she does her best to provide and care for her breeding dogs and puppies. She tells us she started this kennel because she fell in love with the breed which means she'd probably be open to improving and understanding the breed better. I know many of you will never agree with her breeding practices, but I'd suggest trying to talk and inform her, assuming she's open to hearing our perspective.

 

Thanks so much for your input. I appreciate that instead of condemning you are trying to help educate. I am totally open to listening to your perspective. Yes, my response was combative as both myself & my dogs were under attack!

[reddirtbordercollies]

It never fails to amaze me how people go against the grain for their own LIKES and WANTS. Then turn around and want to justify it. The whole "defense" is mounted on comments around color. If these dogs work, you have had plenty of colored litters before, and you want to mount a good "defense", then show them working.

 

I don't think I commented to this thread before, since they never end well....but honestly the term "ranch" in connection with dogs bothers me to begin with! But that matters very little I suppose.

 

I agree with the "ranch" comment actually. It was supposed to sound like a clever pun or word play & it just didn't. I removed the word from our page more than a month ago. We were not raising Border Collies like a rancher raises cows or sheep though. I actually validate this concern.

[reddirtbordercollies]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

Again, it has been removed & it was meant to be nothing more than a play on words.