Red Dirt Border Collie Ranch

[reddirtbordercollies]

I have two dogs from Angela, they are awesome... And I love them very much. I have visited them and can confirm all their dogs are healthy taken good care of and well loved by the whole family.

In don't understand what you guys problems are.

I mean if you want that supper XXX champion puppy with parents with titles and all that you just go somewhere else and pay more.

My dogs are the greatest for me anyway. And yours are for you.

Don't be so bitter guys

 

Thanks for your support!

[reddirtbordercollies]

Sometimes I feel like before membership is approved for the BC Boards applicants should be REQUIRED to read the "Read This First" post AND pass a quiz to show that they understand the philosophy of these Boards.

 

So frustrating that new comers here without understanding what these Boards are about and just think we are being mean!

 

Head banging icon!

 

I totally understand what the Boards are about -- preserving the working Border Collie!!!!! Again, I have no problem with anyone on this Board stating that we are not breeding proven working dogs. I have no problem with anyone on this Board stating that anyone wanting a proven working dog should not get one of our puppies. The problem that I have is with people that do not know us at all stating that we are breeding deaf/blind puppies, mistreating our dogs, running a puppy mill, etc. Some of the posters were doing more than being mean, they were stating complete falsehoods. Talk about head banging icon!!! I would be inserting one here.

[reddirtbordercollies]

GentleLake, Thank you for your explanation.

But I didn't see many constructive critism in that direction. Rather picking on the little cute white girl... I have held her when I was visiting... It's just not nice picking on that.

Angela didn't say anything like "oh, I have a white dog, she might be blind or deaf, but let's keep her and breed with her for the color".

Their dogs come from working lines and I know some of the guys getting a pup from her have them for working.

I understand your general opinion about preserving the breeds original purpose.

But I didn't see much going in that direction and neither do I think that someone can judge a dogs working ability over the internet.

 

I agree Ryn, in the beginning no one was trying to help or educate only condemn.

[reddirtbordercollies]

The OP has been on these boards for several years, and I'm pretty sure we all took for granted that he or she was already familiar with the boards' philosophy.

 

You're coming into an ongoing conversation -- this has been discussed repeatedly and at great length here -- without really being familiar with the back story.

 

 

Coming from working lines and breeding from proven working parents is not the same thing. All border collies came from working lines at one point, since originally that all they ever were. But the further away you get from truly proven working parents, the less likely the dogs produced will continue to be capable of working. As I said in my original response to you, the genetics for working ability are very fragile and every breeding away from those genetics dilutes the gene pool. Even breedings from carefully selected working parents don't always produce the hoped for results. What dogs produce is every bit as important as what the parents themselves can do.

 

It's great that some people getting pups from this breeder intend to use them on stock, but do you know for a fact how they actually turned out? Did they live up to expectations? Are they at least accomplished farm dogs able to work livestock and take direction from their handlers? This is the bare minimum required to demonstrate a successful breeding program.

 

 

No, it's unlikely anyone can, unless, of course, it might be in videos of dogs competing in trials or working on their home farms. Even that is inadequate much of the time, as it's just a snippet.

 

This is why we recommend that people go to trials, meet handlers, watch and talk to them about their dogs, and get to know what people are breeding.

 

The fact of the matter is that -- for a variety of reasons -- very few good working breeders can be found advertizing on the internet. If you want a working bred dog, you have to do some homework, not the least of which is seeing the parents working. Of course, by "working" I'm not talking about AKC-type herding trials or instinct testing. I'm talking about true farm and trial work.

 

I appreciate your information & education. I also appreciate how it was presented in a straight-forward not hateful manner.

[reddirtbordercollies]

Ryn, you make a very good point here. Re-reading this thread I do think the golden puppy was a bit of a distraction...

 

However, BC board members also gave other reasons to steer the OP away from this breeder, including: A wide selection of colors, selling the puppies on Craigslist and the lack of emphasis on the working ability of the dogs.

 

Angela has acknowledged that: "Now since then we have bought a red & a blue female because we like those colors", so there is a case to be made that she is a color breeder. She has defended selling the puppies on Craigslist because she wants to place them locally and I'll take her at her word on that. On the final point of whether or not the dogs are bred for working ability, it's clear from her own response that isn't a priority in her breeding.

 

My point is, even if you take the golden puppy out of the equation, this is still not a breeder most members of this forum would recommend.

 

This does not mean Angela doesn't properly care for her dogs, provide them with everything they need and love them dearly. But it does mean she's not breeding with the core philosophy of maintaining the breed's working ability. This alone would turn her breeding kennel off to most users here.

 

I can respect everything that you posted. Again, I am fine with everone on this Board saying that our dogs are not proven working dogs, I am fine with you recommending a breeder who is providing pups that are proven workers. I totally understand that. The approach & the judgement is what I cannot understand. Thanks for your information!

[Root Beer]

You spent a lot of breath making yourself sound like a jerk as well! Re-read my post, I never once called any of the people on this board stupid! Stop putting words in my mouth. I did say some of the comments were stupid, just like the one you made. You seem to be a pot stirrer, if you have nothing helpful to say, don't say anything.

 

Please don't take this as me telling you what you can and cannot say. That is up to the moderator of the forum, of course.

 

However, the most effective rhetoric is that in which more professional terminology is used than "jerk" and "stupid", especially when coming from a business owner defending his or her business. If you want people to take your rebuttal seriously and engage in quality conversation with you, my advice would be to think about this.

 

Yes, he said, she said, and we can go around and around and around and around with that. But if what you truly want is for people to listen and engage, then it is worth rising above those kinds of assertions and stick to making the points that you wish to make about your breeding operation.

 

I know that might come off as really pompous, but I really am just saying that you have alternatives in communication that might be more effective.

 

No matter what you think of us collectively as an online community, you did indicate that you are interested in being heard simply by posting a rebuttal on the board. Why not maximize your chances of making that happen?

[Camden's Mom]

I can respect everything that you posted. Again, I am fine with everone on this Board saying that our dogs are not proven working dogs, I am fine with you recommending a breeder who is providing pups that are proven workers. I totally understand that. The approach & the judgement is what I cannot understand. Thanks for your information!

 

Angela, I appreciate that you've come here to clear things up. It's seems that the conversation regarding the white/golden puppy was the root of the conflict. Otherwise you seem extremely amenable to the rest of the conversation regarding breeding for working ability.

 

If you love the breed, as we all do, please stay and remain a part of the larger conversation (I'm not specifically talking about this thread, but in general). You may never come to agree with the breeding philosophy of this community and that's OK... but there's a lot to learn and take in here. I, for one, always appreciate a new voice in our conversations. Sure, there are a lot of different personalities, opinions, and perspectives in our little online community, but I think we all have at least one thing in common: we love our dogs.

[reddirtbordercollies]

Please don't take this as me telling you what you can and cannot say. That is up to the moderator of the forum, of course.

 

However, the most effective rhetoric is that in which more professional terminology is used than "jerk" and "stupid", especially when coming from a business owner defending his or her business. If you want people to take your rebuttal seriously and engage in quality conversation with you, my advice would be to think about this.

 

Yes, he said, she said, and we can go around and around and around and around with that. But if what you truly want is for people to listen and engage, then it is worth rising above those kinds of assertions and stick to making the points that you wish to make about your breeding operation.

 

I know that might come off as really pompous, but I really am just saying that you have alternatives in communication that might be more effective.

 

No matter what you think of us collectively as an online community, you did indicate that you are interested in being heard simply by posting a rebuttal on the board. Why not maximize your chances of making that happen?

 

Rootbeer -- You are of course, correct! I should rise above what some posters have posted. I am educated & usually don't have any trouble communicating. This whole situation has been very upsetting to me & I just replied in kind. I can accept constructive criticism. Thanks!

[reddirtbordercollies]

Angela, I appreciate that you've come here to clear things up. It's seems that the conversation regarding the white/golden puppy was the root of the conflict. Otherwise you seem extremely amenable to the rest of the conversation regarding breeding for working ability.

 

If you love the breed, as we all do, please stay and remain a part of the larger conversation (I'm not specifically talking about this thread, but in general). You may never come to agree with the breeding philosophy of this community and that's OK... but there's a lot to learn and take in here. I, for one, always appreciate a new voice in our conversations. Sure, there are a lot of different personalities, opinions, and perspectives in our little online community, but I think we all have at least one thing in common: we love our dogs.

 

Thanks, Camden's Mom! I will consider becoming a part of this community. I completely agree with your last sentence & in the end that should be what drives all of us!

[Smalahundur]

I will consider becoming a part of this community.

Jay! Lucky us.

 

(After being called "a pot stirring jerk" I thought it appropriate to play the part.)

[reddirtbordercollies]

Jay! Lucky us.

 

(After being called "a pot stirring jerk" I thought it appropriate to play the part.)

 

If the shoe fits...

[Pam Wolf]

If you are not breeding for the work, you are not breeding Border Collies, but something else (yes, the name confuses the matter) IMHO the sooner the name can be changed, the less the confusion and the better the working dogs can be-It is about time we close the door on sport bred dogs and keep it shut on the show bred

[Sue R]

If the shoe fits...

No, it doesn't fit, not really. He's a rather valuable member of this community but perhaps feeling a bit puckish on this topic, like a number of us might be.

[Sue R]

If you are not breeding for the work, you are not breeding Border Collies, but something else (yes, the name confuses the matter) IMHO the sooner the name can be changed, the less the confusion and the better the working dogs can be-It is about time we close the door on sport bred dogs and keep it shut on the show bred

I couldn't agree with you more. I might feel quite differently if the people producing show dogs, sport dogs, candy-colored dogs, pet dogs, etc., at least were knowledgeable enough and honest enough to call them something other than "Border Collie".

[Camden's Mom]

I couldn't agree with you more. I might feel quite differently if the people producing show dogs, sport dogs, candy-colored dogs, pet dogs, etc., at least were knowledgeable enough and honest enough to call them something other than "Border Collie".

 

I'm curious (and I'm genuinely asking, as I honestly don't know) if there has ever been an effort on the part of working border collie advocates to refer to the working border collie as something else. I remember reading a few posts where people referred to a working bc as a "working collie" or something along those lines. I guess it might seem a bit unfair to re-name the original breed, but I think there is a LOT of confusion at this point about what a border collie is.

 

For example, when I got my dog here's what I knew about the breed: BCs are incredibly intelligent, athletic, require a large commitment of time (to satisfy the brain and the body), were originally bred to herd sheep and excel at dog sports. Knowing what I know now, those are some pretty muddy waters. Before I got my border collie I didn't know this controversy even existed.

 

Anyways, I was just wondering if there has ever been (or could ever be) an effort for the working border collies to formally break away from all of the other "so called" border collies bred for purposes other then stockwork.

[Tommy Coyote]

Pam's right, of course. If you aren't breeding working dogs then you aren't breeding border collies. It sounds like you are breeding pets. For other people who want pets.

 

I don't refer to my dogs as border collies any more because of the confusion with all the pet breeders, sport breeders, color breeders, obedience breeders. I always say I have working sheepdogs. And I really wish we could just completely split off once and for all so that people know that our dogs first and foremost are working dogs. And not just from "working lines" but from dogs that are actually out there working sheep and cattle. Being from "working lines" doesn't mean seem to mean anything any more.

[Sue R]

When people ask me what my dogs are, I answer that they are "working Border Collies". Over in the UK and Ireland, they are simply referred to by many as "collies" which essentially means a (stock) working dog. Of course, in the US, thanks to Lassie, the word "collie" by itself invokes the Rough collie (often called the "Lassie collie" by people). They are also known over there as "working sheepdogs". The names of the ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society) and their magazine (SDN or Sheep Dog News) reiterate the consideration of the dog as the "sheep dog". Over here, if you say "sheepdog", many people think of the Old English Sheepdog (which has been bred for show primarily and does not really resemble the working dog it descends from). So it is confusing because what some people call a particular type of dog is not what other people call that particular type of dog.

 

What bothers me is that when a breed is "recognized" by a kennel club and bred for the show ring, the name that once referred to a particular sort of "useful" dog now becomes associated with descendants of that dog that may not really even resemble their ancestors and that certainly do not possess the suite of characteristics (mental and physical) that their ancestors once possessed, and which made them very useful for certain jobs or tasks.

 

Eileen made a really great analogy (I think that's the right word) about this very thing (breeding for something other than the original purpose) but I can't lay my finger on it right now. But to me, it's like you take Thoroughbred race horses and you breed them for something other than racing/running, and generations later, you call your horses Thoroughbred race horses, when they are no longer suited for racing. They are descended from race horses but they are no longer racehorses. They are only "Thoroughbred" because the registrations have been maintained and because there is no "standard" (not physical "standard" as in the show ring but working standard) or requirement prior to registration other than that the parents were registered.

 

So, is a Border Collie that whose ancestors have been bred for something other than the work for generations, really a Border Collie any more? It is descended from Border Collies but is it truly one? Actually, "Border Collie" is a fairly recent name but it was a name that came to mean the working sheepdog well before the kennel clubs recognized it as a breed.

 

The ABCA fought the recognition of the Border Collie by the AKC (read Donald McCaig's The Dog Wars for an excellent telling of the story). After recognition, there was consideration of how to deal with the issue but the only workable and partial "fix" that was put in place was that any ABCA-registered dog that was dual-registered with AKC and achieved a show championship would be de-registered by ABCA. AKC has kept an open studbook and so is still able to "appropriate" the genetics of ABCA-registered animals (also CBCA and ISDS, I believe). ABCA does not recognize AKC-registration although it does have reciprocity agreements with CBCA and ISDS.

 

A large issue in my mind is that there are people who breed ABCA-registered dogs and bitches to produce ABCA-registered pups, and they are not breeding to a working standard. Perhaps they are the biggest threat of all to the future of the breed because they are a threat from within the ABCA. How to solve this? I have no idea other than to educate potential buyers and hope they buy responsibly and (if and when they do) breed responsibly. Too many do not.

 

So, rambling thoughts on a very cold afternoon...

[Sue R]

Pam's right, of course. If you aren't breeding working dogs then you aren't breeding border collies. It sounds like you are breeding pets. For other people who want pets.

 

I don't refer to my dogs as border collies any more because of the confusion with all the pet breeders, sport breeders, color breeders, obedience breeders. I always say I have working sheepdogs. And I really wish we could just completely split off once and for all so that people know that our dogs first and foremost are working dogs. And not just from "working lines" but from dogs that are actually out there working sheep and cattle. Being from "working lines" doesn't mean seem to mean anything any more.

You said it way better than I did, and with brevity - thank you!

[GentleLake]

I really wish we could just completely split off once and for all so that people know that our dogs first and foremost are working dogs.

 

I do, too. I often hesitate to identify Bodhi as a border collie, and when I do, I'm quick to tell people that he's probably not a true border collie bred for as a sheepdog.

 

I suspect my next dog will be a real working bred dog. I'll probably buy a pup rather than adopting next time, mostly because, as much as Bodhi's one of the best dogs I've ever had in most ways, I can't do any sheep work with him.

 

I think it's a damn shame that ACK wouldn't take us up on our request to change the name of their version of the breed when they recognized it. It's led to so much confusion and the increased public mis-perception about what breed of dog they have -- or don't have.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if we eventually go the way of the red field setter folks and end up calling our dogs something other than the name they were originally known by just to make the distinction clear. It may actually be a good thing to consider.

 

I'd be fine having a dog registered with the AWSA or AWSDA.

[GentleLake]

AKC has kept an open studbook and so is still able to "appropriate" the genetics of ABCA-registered animals (also CBCA and ISDS, I believe).

 

The irony of that, of course, is because they never got enough registrations of their Barbie collies to create a viable stud book so they could reasonably close it.

 

So much for so many people wanting ACK recognition.

[Camden's Mom]

It wouldn't surprise me if we eventually go the way of the red field setter folks and end up calling our dogs something other than the name they were originally known by just to make the distinction clear. It may actually be a good thing to consider.

 

That's kind of what I was getting at with my question. I think it would be terribly unfair to have to abandon the "original" name (although Sue mentioned "border collie" was a relatively new name?) but it might reduce the confusion on this topic a great deal. I didn't realize it had been done before by the red field setter folks.... interesting.

[GentleLake]

Red field setters are the still working version of what used to be called Irish setter before they were made unusable for field work by the conformation contingent. . . . although at one time, red Irish setters, English setters and Gordon setters were bred interchangeably regardless of color.

[Tommy Coyote]

1. When I got my first dogs the BCs weren't recognized by the AKC. But they were really going great guns in obedience and flyball. And they were all called border collies at that time They were just getting hot in obedience. The other main obedience dogs were shelties and goldens. And lots of obedience people called their dogs "borders." which I have come to really hate. I would bet you that most of those first dogs were from working dogs.

I think the obedience people were the ones who started to really push for the fancy colors. Black and white just didn't cut it. To be really cool you had to have a merle or a red and white. Those were pretty much all the colors available then. And certainly no smooth coats because they were simply not flashy enough. That breeding for color craze seemed to be the beginning of breeding for other things than working ability. Obedience people didn't like the working ability. It got in the way of training for obedience. And black and white was just too boring.

 

And so a whole new breed of dog was born. Flashy dogs that were good in obedience and flyball and later on in agility. Pretty and fast and good at catching frisbies. And that whole thing just caught fire.

 

And thank the good lord for Jack Knox and the other guys like Bill Berhow who came on the scene to teach people what a useful tool a working dog was. And what a special, wonderful breed of dog they were. And why it is so important to keep these dogs different and apart from all the other pretenders.

[KnottyClarence]

I say "sheepdog" and then readjust the misunderstanding the questioner might have about Old English Sheepdogs, German Shepherds and Lassie. Would rather talk about these breeds than sports dogs and those other poor creatures in the conf ring. If I'm lucky I get a chance to show them my dogs working and all becomes clearer.

 

Since so many of the original conf dogs in the AKC aftermath came from Australia, I used to think conf dogs could be called Australian Collies, described as "derived from working border collie ancestors", admittedly a mouthful.

 

There is perhaps a place to discuss dogs bred for reasons other than to be working sheepdogs, but this board would not be that place. Looks like "why" should be pretty clear to the O P by now.

[Sue R]

The irony of that, of course, is because they never got enough registrations of their Barbie collies to create a viable stud book so they could reasonably close it.

 

So much for so many people wanting ACK recognition.

Absolutely!