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Another thing that muddies the waters in North America is that (I think) far more people will see "Border Collies" in the show ring (thanks in large part to Westminster) and the performance sports, and think that that is what a Border Collie is - a hairy, stocky dog on a short lead trotting around with its handler and/or a competitor in obedience, agility, dock dogs, flyball, or another sport. If they have any clue that the "Border Collie" originated as a working sheepdog, and if they believe what the AKC would have them believe (that "herding instinct" is all hard-wired in and while you need to breed for conformation - build, color, coat, etc. - or for sports performance, you don't need to breed for working ability because it's "all in there" even when it hasn't been bred for for generations, or has even been bred against for generations), they won't have a clue that these dogs in general couldn't work stock in a paper bag, so to speak.

 

Over in the UK and Ireland, and maybe parts of Europe, I think the distinction is (or has been) largely known through exposure - seeing trials at fairs, seeing dogs at work in the fields, seeing "One Man and His Dog", being aware of the National and Supreme International trials, and even having farm backgrounds within recent generations. Not that all are aware of the difference - I joined a UK pet board at a friend's request because she was trying to explain this very thing, that if you don't breed for working ability, you are not truly breeding "Border Collies" (as they have become known in the show, performance, and pet world in particular). I was amazed at the number of *young* people that had swallowed the kennel club mentality in its entirety - that showing and the breeding involved with it was for the preservation and betterment of the breed, and that their dog was a true "Border Collie" even though its working ancestors were hidden deep in the mists of long-gone generations.

 

So, I think a large part of the problem is perception - the dogs at Westminster, the dogs in performance sports, and the dogs from the puppy mill or backyard breeder (not pointing a finger at anyone in particular) are the Border Collie. The dogs that prove themselves on farm, ranch, and trial field actually doing the work; the dogs produced by breeders who choose matings with working ability first and foremost in a host of considerations; the dogs that are not seen by Joe Q Public or Jane Q Public, are not what they think of when they think "Border Collie" but they are the essence of the breed in its truest form.

 

Sorry for another endless missive...

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I always say I have working sheepdogs. And I really wish we could just completely split off once and for all so that people know that our dogs first and foremost are working dogs.

TC, I have to ask...are they really *working sheepdogs* if they in fact don't work? I'm beginning to not care what the name is just what the dog does. Yet I suppose they have to be pidgeoned into a name more or less.

 

As for *candy color* careful...my first dog came from Bill Berhow, a red tri off his Nick and Jen.

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Sue, I always appreciate your very articulate and well thought out posts! As a very recent "Jane Q Public" with regards to understanding border collies I would say you are correct about the public assumption that herding is "hardwired" into the breed. It may sound silly, but it honestly never occurred to me otherwise. When I first started to become aware of the differences between certain types of border collies it was regarding the conformation dogs. Even then, when looking at the physical differences of the show collies and working collies I thought "wow, they really have changed the body type... how would that dog effectively herd sheep?". It STILL didn't occur to me that what they had done to the dog's body was nothing in comparison to what they have done to it's brain.

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The term sheepdog might be too narrow, since border collies can work all sorts of stock. But is the term stockdog too broad? My border collie is from undocumented but definite farm dogs. He is a border collie no matter how little his newbie handler gets much stock work out of him. I think the best we can distinguish for now is to say a dog is a Working border collie. And say it with some conviction. Eventually the genetics of it all will sort itself out. Since I don't think workers, sporters, nor show ring types will quit breeding. They will eventually sort by what they do. It is easy now to find Labs for work vice Labs for pets.

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The quote referenced is below, rather than above, due to computer glitch.

 

It is said that James Reid, Secretary of the ISDS, used the name Border Collie in 1915 in reference to a National Champion, and that the name first appeared in ISDS records in 1946, when the studbook was established. It must have been in common usage even before 1915. I wouldn't feel good about giving-up to the AKC a respected name, revered through the generations.

 

What would stop a floundering AKC, in order to maintain numbers, from pirating a renamed Border Collie back into its registrations? How did it happen that the ABCA allowed dual ABCA-AKC registration in the first place, and what did ABCA get in return? If I understand correctly, too much has been conceded already.

 

IMO an ABCA name change should not be considered before good efforts (redoubled efforts?) are made to use political power to negotiate the AKC to rename its dog. Has that been tried recently? -- TEC

 

...I think it's a damn shame that ACK wouldn't take us up on our request to change the name of their version of the breed when they recognized it. It's led to so much confusion and the increased public mis-perception about what breed of dog they have -- or don't have.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if we eventually go the way of the red field setter folks and end up calling our dogs something other than the name they were originally known by just to make the distinction clear. It may actually be a good thing to consider...

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This is a random thought: When you are talking about a name change you a refering to American Border Collies not the breed universally, the name Border Collie is in use around the world with both working/confirmation/sports if the name is changed would that not effectively split the American Border Collie from its origins and those being bred around the world.

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It is said that James Reid, Secretary of the ISDS, used the name Border Collie in 1915 in reference to a National Champion, and that the name first appeared in ISDS records in 1946, when the studbook was established. It must have been in common usage even before 1915. I

 

 

Is there any evidence that the term was in common usage before 1915? As discussed on this board before, it isn't in common usage amongst those who work their dogs here in the UK and I doubt that it ever was.

 

If it only appeared in ISDS records in 1946 does that not suggest that it wasn't actually what most working folk called their dogs? If the name "Border Collie" is so important, why is it not the IBCS?

 

In any even, 1946 is almost within my lifetime so i consider that recent, not a name that goes back to the mists of time. I would happily give up the name since, in the main, the only people I know who use the term amongst themselves are sport and show people and people who know little or nothing about dogs. I will only use it if talking to one of those people.

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I think the best we can distinguish for now is to say a dog is a Working border collie. And say it with some conviction. Eventually the genetics of it all will sort itself out. Since I don't think workers, sporters, nor show ring types will quit breeding. They will eventually sort by what they do. It is easy now to find Labs for work vice Labs for pets.

 

 

In the UK we are used to seeing working labs, cockers, springers, GRs etc and they look very different from their show counterparts, but the working varieties are the ones you see more taking part in sports. Prefacing a breed by "working" is commonplace but it denotes a subtype of a breed rather than what the dog actually does.

 

A friend who is showing her young Rottweiler bitch at Crufts next week describes her as a working Rottie even though it will be many generations back that any of her ancestors did any type of work. But we know what she means - her dog is smaller, more agile and lighter boned.than the average show Rottie and we all agreed that she stood no chance of getting anywhere but she was going anyway to show what a real Rottie should look like. I guess the dog qualified for Crufts as a pup t a small show before the difference became too apparent.

 

I will single out working cockers because of those breeds it is the one that is more often than the others bred for sport rather than working ability in the same way collies are. They are still called working cockers to distinguish them from the show type, whether or not they work, and they are still eligible for registration on the KC breed register.

 

There is an added complication in the breeding of sport cockers in that tail docking is illegal here and in some other European countries. We have an exception in England (but not in Scotland where all docking is banned) for dogs that are certified as being destined to work. Having a docked dog may restrict where a dog may compete or the buyer may have ethical reasons for wanting a whole dog, and buying from a sport breeder is an easier way to get one than trying to persuade a working breeder to leave a newborn pup undocked.

 

If you called a dog a working border collie here it wouldn't indicate to dog people that it actually works. Even to call it a working sheepdog wouldn't; all it would mean is that it isn't a border collie because it isn't registered with either the ISDS or the KC. And plenty of ISDS registered dogs don't work either.

 

It always amuses me if I act as a stay steward at an obedience show. Faced with a line of collies we have to mark on the score sheet the breed of each dog to save getting mixed up if one moves. What do you get? BC, BC, WSD, BC, WSD,WSD etc and no way of telling visually which is which.

 

I'll stick to calling them all collies and finding out what each one does by talking to the owner.

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I'll stick to calling them all collies and finding out what each one does by talking to the owner.

Sounds like that works well for you in the UK. In the US, even when I was a kid, before people were using the dogs in obedience, they were called Border Collies. Quinn is frequently identified as a Border Collie by people when we are out and about. Between Babe and agility on TV, the "type" is quite recognizable to many in the general public, never mind Dog People.
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This is a random thought: When you are talking about a name change you a refering to American Border Collies not the breed universally, the name Border Collie is in use around the world with both working/confirmation/sports if the name is changed would that not effectively split the American Border Collie from its origins and those being bred around the world.

 

That, of course, would be an issue.

 

And, I suppose upon reflection, it may not really do what we hope it will do because some people will still breed their nice dogs for pets no matter what they're called, and if the breeding's not consistently there it still dilutes the gene pool. :unsure:

 

 

Sounds like that works well for you in the UK. In the US, even when I was a kid, before people were using the dogs in obedience, they were called Border Collies. Quinn is frequently identified as a Border Collie by people when we are out and about. Between Babe and agility on TV, the "type" is quite recognizable to many in the general public, never mind Dog People.

 

When I first had border collies -- 33 years ago? -- most people here didn't know what they were. People in obedience circles or at dogs shows in general, yes. But not the average person on the street. They'd confuse them with Shelties or "miniature collies" but the name "border collie" usually didn't mean much to them and would evoke blank looks on people's faces.

 

When I visit nursing homes today, it's not uncommon for residents to tell me that they had a dog like mine, who worked the livestock (or helped with the chores :) ), when they were kids on the farm, but many of them seem fairly unfamiliar with the name "border collie."

 

I wish there were an easy way out of this mess, but I don't think there is. Other than educating people, of course. And as long as the ACK in it's great wisdom leaves the stud book open (and ABCA allows dual registry), it's only going to get worse. <sigh>

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If the name "Border Collie" is so important, why is it not the IBCS?

 

Because the ISDS wasn't designed to be exclusive to border collies. To this day, any working sheepdog of any breed can be registered on merit, and when it is, it can be bred to any other ISDS registered dog and the pups will be eligible for registration, even if they're mixed BC X kelpie, or BC X bearded collie, or any other cross.

 

When the ISDS was formed, people weren't as concerned about breed purity as they were about creating working sheepdogs. ;)

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Something to keep in mind is that the people with whom you're trying to communicate the difference between the working border collies and those seen at Westminster are the same people who believe that pit bulls should act like golden retrievers and that it's "all in how you raise them". As far as non-dog people are concerned, all dogs are the same at the core and it's the paint job which determines the breed.

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I often refer to mine as working border collies. But a lot of sport people refer to their dogs as 'working' and genuinely feel that what they do is 'work'...so how could we distinguish 'real' work (livestock) vs. 'other' work (sports)?

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Please ignore if you don't like jokes.

 

My husband often says he is working... While his job is more or less sitting around watching other people work...

I define "work" as "unpleasant activity that you wouldn't do if there was no compensation given".

Herding is way too much pleasant for a border collie so they never work ;-)

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Because the ISDS wasn't designed to be exclusive to border collies. To this day, any working sheepdog of any breed can be registered on merit, and when it is, it can be bred to any other ISDS registered dog and the pups will be eligible for registration, even if they're mixed BC X kelpie, or BC X bearded collie, or any other cross.

 

When the ISDS was formed, people weren't as concerned about breed purity as they were about creating working sheepdogs. ;)

 

 

Are you sure about that? I know we used to joke about the theoretical possibility of getting a poodle registered with the ISDS on merit and that it could then be called a BC but I thought that loophole had been closed. Could be wrong though but I do have in mind that nowadays a dog has to be pretty much collie like before it can be registered.

 

I'm sure even now breed purity isn't that important to many farmers as long as a dog can do the job he needs it to do, otherwise why would there still be many crosses out there working?

 

But I think you've proved my point. The ISDS cares about working dogs; it doesn't seem to care about names as much as some people may think.

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The two Examiners need to confirm that the dog seeking registration is a working sheep dog and is accepted by this Society as a true to type working sheepdog or Border Collie

 

Source: ISDS Registration on Merit

This is a bit vague as to whether or not a dog that does not look like a sheepdog (i.e. poodle) but works like a sheepdog would be accepted.

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it really comes down to the breeding goals followed......

 

working bred

agility bred

flyball bred

conformation bred

color bred

pet bred

money bred

etc...

 

And to make it even more complicated, let's say you have an "agility bred" dog whose owner tries it out on stock and it's a fantastic sheepdog! So, now you have a sport bred dog who no longer competes in agility (the original breeding goal) but works as a stockdog. Not saying this scenario would be common, but seems to me it could happen. What would that dog be called? Do you label a dog for the way it was bred, the work it does, the work it could do or the way it looks?

 

Obviously any breed name is going to be a broad generalization of a type of dog, but for the border collie the breed name seems like an especially large tent right now.

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When I first had border collies -- 33 years ago? -- most people here didn't know what they were. People in obedience circles or at dogs shows in general, yes. But not the average person on the street. They'd confuse them with Shelties or "miniature collies" but the name "border collie" usually didn't mean much to them and would evoke blank looks on people's faces.

 

Well, I was a dog obsessed kid and in the books I read (also a book obsessed kid), they were clearly labeled Border Collie. I also fell in love with a Border Collie who lived down the street from my grandmother and the owner called him a Border Collie (not used to work stock but a pet). So, yeah, I guess until relatively recently, only Dog People (with capitals), dog obsessed kids or owners would know a Border Collie. Nowadays, it seems many people do and they are basing this on what they see on TV or in the movies, rather than any real life experience.

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And to make it even more complicated, let's say you have an "agility bred" dog whose owner tries it out on stock and it's a fantastic sheepdog! So, now you have a sport bred dog who no longer competes in agility (the original breeding goal) but works as a stockdog. Not saying this scenario would be common, but seems to me it could happen. What would that dog be called? Do you label a dog for the way it was bred, the work it does, the work it could do or the way it looks?

 

Obviously any breed name is going to be a broad generalization of a type of dog, but for the border collie the breed name seems like an especially large tent right now.

I have posted in the past about a genetic study on sub-populations within breeds which demonstrated sub-populations within breeds can have as much genetic difference as there is between breeds. These sub-population are readily evident in other breeds (field vs. conformation bred) and are developing (or already exsist) within "border collie" due to narrowed selection within the overall gene pool for the various breeding goals (livestock work, conformation, sport, etc). This suggests that working bred, sport bred, conformation bred, etc border collies are becoming (or already are) as genetically differnent as different breeds.

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Randomly: It will be a cold day in Valhalla before I'll call my dogs anything but Border Collies. After all, they aren't changed from their origins - the show/sport/pet types are.

Though when talking to Brit friends, I may fudge a bit and call them Collies, as they do.

That is all. As you were. Carry on. :P

~ Gloria

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Are you sure about that? I know we used to joke about the theoretical possibility of getting a poodle registered with the ISDS on merit and that it could then be called a BC but I thought that loophole had been closed. Could be wrong though but I do have in mind that nowadays a dog has to be pretty much collie like before it can be registered.

 

I didn't know that it may have been changed. I know that Jack Knox bought and imported a little beardie bitch that had been ROM into ISDS about 25 (+ or -) years ago. At tat time, she could have been bred and any pups would have been eligible for registration.

 

It's possible this has been changed.

 

Btw, that little dog looked nothing like the beardies I'd ever seen before or since. Smaller, much less coat, prick ears, and, obviously, a great working dog. B)

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