Genetically fearful?

[nancy]

The trainer for the class in which my dog is finishing says that the dog's main problem is that she is afraid. We have had this dog for 8 of her 15 months of life. I said that we don't know what might have made her that way with a birth home, a family home, the pound, and a rescue in those first 7 months. The trainer said that had nothing to do with anything. That it is genetic. Is there such a thing as a dog that is genetically afraid?

[SS Cressa]

Lol I think it depends on if you think genetics plays the main role in temperament or if the environment does.

 

I generally lean toward genetics playing a big part in the dogs temperaments. So in another word yes I think you can have a dog that is genetically afraid. Not, that you can't overcome it but that it will always play a part in how they react to different environments.

 

The other thing is your dog is still young. I don't think the breed is generally done maturing/getting a brain till 2 at the earliest but that is just my opinion. And this is more toward agility than toward herding. I could be wrong but I thought there was a fear period between 1 and 2 could she just be in a fear period?

[mbc1963]

LOL. Well...

 

My parents are cleaning out their home in preparation for moving to an elderly housing complex. In my old room, I found a box filled with all our report cards from our childhoods. This is the summative report by my first grade teacher, Mrs. Wilcoxr:

 

"Mary is a very sensitive child and a worrier, I'm afraid. Perhaps by fall she will be more relaxed."*

 

Um... I'll be 50 in June, and I'm pretty much wired the way I was in first grade. Perhaps by 75 I'll be more relaxed?

 

Anyone who says that genetics has nothing to do with temperament is a fool, just as anyone who says environment has nothing to do with it is. My dog is decidedly fearful. I got him at 2, and he's much, much better now after nearly 8 years of a calm, stable home with no unpredictable things happening to him. His early life is impossible to know. Was he dumped on the streets because he was high-strung and tough to manage, or was he high strung because he was dumped on the streets? It's most likely a combination - you hear all the time about "bomb-proof" dogs who simply love everything and everyone despite their circumstances; meanwhile you hear of well-loved and well-treated dogs who are skittish.

 

Mary

 

*PS: The bathrooms in our primary school were between classrooms, but the sinks were in the classrooms. Mrs. Wilcox didn't let us use the sinks because it disrupted class. This grossed me out - my mother was a nurse, and trained me well to wash after using the lav. When my mother complained, Mrs. Wilcox's solution was to pull me alone out of the lunch line and make me wash my hands in front of the whole class before we could proceed to lunch. (Seriously - she'd line us up and then say, "Mary Beth, wash your hands now" while the other kids waited for me.) Even in first grade, I understood that she was punishing me for my mother's daring to challenge the handwashing issue. That - along with her trying to get us to say "hwale" instead of "whale" - is my main memory of my first grade year. And she wondered why I found it difficult to relax in her class!?

 

Ahem. May she rest in peace.

[Sue R]

I do understand that temperment often has a genetic component - you often hear of certain sorts of temperments running in lines - but I am sure there are also environmental components of each dog's temperment, too. In other words, a dog is born with a certain set of characteristics in her genes, but environment may have an effect on those, making them more pronounced or less pronounced, giving or not giving the dog the "tools" to deal with what comes her way, and helping the handler know how to manage the dog to minimize adverse effects and behavior.

 

To write something off as simply being "genetic" or simply being "environmental" is simplistic, and I'd tend to question your trainer's understanding if she just dismisses your dog's fearfulness as genetic, particularly since your dog's breeding and puppyhood are not known.

 

One other thing that makes me think is that studies of animals as diverse as wolves and people seem to show that there are certain characteristics that develop (wiring in the brain) at certain stages of life - and when those "opportunities" are missed, it can be hard (impossible, in some cases) to overcome that missed opportunity. For instance, with wolves, if you miss the small window in which you can "tame" or "imprint" a wolf cub on humans, you've missed it. But, with domestic dogs, that window is longer and a missed opportunity does not make it impossible to tame that animal.

 

All of this is my usual long-winded way of saying that I think both genetics and environment play their parts in developing a dog's temperment - the dog is born with a temperment that is affected to one degree or another by the environment. Of course, there are those "phases" that a pup or young dog goes through where it is particularly "open" to learn, for better or worse.

[Sekah]

I like this write up by the Reactive Champion blog on one of Patricia McConnell's seminars focusing on the genetic bold-shy continuum in dogs. http://reactivechampion.blogspot.ca/2011/11/patricia-mcconnell-seminar-interplay-of.html

 

Genetics will provide a range of how bold or shy a dog will be, and then the environment acts upon the possibility laid out by the animal's genes. A dog may always be shy, however you can still have good effect on it via training and managing a dog's environment.

[Root Beer]

The trainer for the class in which my dog is finishing says that the dog's main problem is that she is afraid. We have had this dog for 8 of her 15 months of life. I said that we don't know what might have made her that way with a birth home, a family home, the pound, and a rescue in those first 7 months. The trainer said that had nothing to do with anything. That it is genetic. Is there such a thing as a dog that is genetically afraid?

 

There certainly are dogs with fearful temperaments who are going to be that way regardless of upbringing and experience.

 

I have one of those, and I had the same kind of questions that you ask. We got him as a puppy, and there is no "reason" why he should be afraid of dogs and people - but he was, utterly terrified, both as a puppy, and in his young years.

 

I did years of work with him, and he came a long, long way. But there are still things that would trigger that fear if I allowed exposure to them. That said, he is ten thousand percent better, and he exists as a normal dog most of the time. For example, he can play, off leash, on the beach with dogs and children running around with no fear. He can dance in front of 500 people and love it. But put him in certain situations and he is still fearful.

 

Conversely, I am now working with a dog who has a phenomenal temperament who learned fear. How she learned it, I don't know exactly. But I know her fear is learned because she completely leaves it behind as she learns that she does not need to be afraid. The difference is like night and day. Once she moves past a fear, it is completely gone.

 

The nature and nurture question is an interesting one, and both certainly have a role. But the fact is that there are some dogs who come from perfect circumstances that are fearful in spite of that, and dogs who come from horrific situations that are perfectly fine. Temperament is what it is, to a large extent. And while a dog who is fearful by temperament can always improve (Speedy is still improving at 11 years old), that temperament will always be there on some level.

 

Certainly your dog's previous experiences played a role in who she is right now. If she is fearful by temperament, those experiences may have intensified her response to certain things. But I wouldn't say that her experiences have nothing to do with it. It all goes together.

[urge to herd]

What does your trainer base this 'genetics based fear' opinion on? Like the other responses, I believe that temperment is a mix of genetics and environmental influences.

 

I'd be skeptical of any such opinion based on a few hours stretched over several weeks observations. Not enough data, I'd say.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Liz P]

I believe that there are dogs that will be confident, friendly and outgoing no matter what happens to them. I see these dogs come out of situations of abuse and neglect.

 

I believe there are dogs that will be shy and somewhat fearful no matter how well they are raised and socialized. I have seen these dogs in homes that do everything right.

 

I believe MOST dogs fall somewhere in between and their temperament is affected by a mix of genetics and environment.

 

I have a pup who was the shy one in a litter and wouldn't come out when people came to visit. She actually hid behind a dog house. She is now the most confident and outgoing. The bold pup in the litter who was always greeting people and demanding attention from strangers is now the most shy and doesn't like to meet strangers. She wasn't socialized nearly as much as the other pup. I think this is the most common scenario you are going to see.

[arf2184]

Fear involves several different parts of the brain and the release of chemicals/hormones into the body. I like the explanation on howstuffworks.com: http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/fear.htm. When you think of it on that level, its very easy to see how genetics could determine how fearful a dog (or person) is because genetics do play a role in determining how our brain is wired and how quickly our bodies process information from the brain.

 

Environment comes into play also because some dogs will interpret more stimuli as 'things to be afraid of' based on past experiences.

 

Age comes into to play too. There are stages where dogs/puppies tend to be more fearful. Also, dogs with limited experience may find new things (the unknown) scary.

 

That doesn't mean there's no hope for the fearful dog. They just need a little more time for their brain to assess situations and for their whole body to calm down. Genetically fearful dogs are likely to have that 'brief moment of terror' (where the hippocampus hasn't yet decided if something is a threat) more often than others, but with practice and experience, they should be able to learn to asses sitautions and calm down a bit faster.

[Pam Wolf]

There are definitely genetic components, but environment can overcome or make worse fearfulness. This starts when the pups are born, There are methods to help dogs cope with stress (and fear is a big stressor) that can be done with neonates. And the socialization needs to continue for about 18 mos to 2 years at a minimum. Most people take a pup to puppy class(I wish) then the pup goes home with no further socialization so the problems arise later. Many working farms do not have good opportunity to socialize their pups, decreasing environmental influences. Few are willing to cull, some far too willing to cull

[nancy]

My dog doesn't hide or act shy that I can see.

 

Heck, she's more likely to jump up to greet any new adult. She wants to romp with other dogs - and deer. She lets kids of all ages come up to her and do anything as long as it's attention. And she doesn't ever jump on or at them at all.

 

In class, she would rather watch the other dogs than focus on me. (Gee, that's how my previous bc-mix learned things: watching and copying.) And she spends a lot of time sniffing the ground for interesting mulch and any dropped treats. Our family says she has ADD (especially our adult daughter who is being treated for that now). The instructor says that's fear.

 

At home, if we meet someone on a walk, instead of jumping - if it's someone she's met often - she'll start eating grass or pulling apart reeds or some other of what I call displacement. The instructor says that shows she's frightened.

 

The instructor has also told us that, when our dogs hold their tail proud, they are over-stimulated; when they tuck them down, they are relaxed. Seems to me that it's the opposite with border collies. Isn't tucked under the work position (not over-stimulated of course) and proud the relaxed position?

 

The instructor has degrees and certifications in animal behavior and related stuff. And I like a lot of what she's teaching us. It's just that she emphatically derides me for my even thinking that the pup's early life, her abandonment to the pound for a while, and her being pulled, spayed, and delivered to us in quick succession have had some impact on her behavior.

 

I know that every dog has a different personality. But, if it's all genetic, why do we bother with training?

[Beach BCs]

That doesn't really scream fear to me. More like stress or lack of focus.

[rushdoggie]

I know that every dog has a different personality. But, if it's all genetic, why do we bother with training?

 

Because training can help teach coping skills. I have a dog who I believe is genetically fearful made worse by a particularly painful bout of pano as an adolescent. I can't rewire him so he doesn't experience the emotion of fear, but I can teach him what to do when he feels it that will result in him feeling better.

 

Displacement behavior (which your dog may be doing) is less out genetic fear and more about being stressed out and not sure what to do about it.

[G. Festerling]

I know from years of training that knowledge breeds confidence not just in people but also in animals.

 

My personal opinion is also that it is a mix of nature and nurture.

 

Confidence can be gained or lost due to repeated experiences. How to, for example put more value in a treat or pat, than letting natural based fear, rule.

 

Or on the flipside, become so insecure when confidence is destroyed that previously normal function becomes less normal.

 

That is why training is important. It not only teaches you about your dog, but the dog about you as well. That brings confidence and security. Which may allow a more fearful dog to cope with life much better.

 

Yes I know, this is pretty simple minded without scientific backup....

[gcv-border]

FWIW, IMO you are describing a dog that is stressed - sniffing, looking about, etc. Just how stressed, I don't know.

 

The fact that your instructor discounts previous life experience sounds very Cesar Milan-ish to me.

 

Jovi

[Maralynn]

I agree that it sounds like stress.

 

But, from your other descriptions of Dixie, it sounds like she is a dog that should be able to work through stress fine with a bit of training. Training builds confidence.

[arf2184]

Just keep working with her and don't let the trainer's comments get you down. The trainer is trying to help I'm sure; not all of them go about it the best way.

 

I'm sure your pup's time spent at the pound had an impact on her, but don't use that as an excuse for her. Yeah, she had a rough time for a spell, but now its time to work with her and move past that. Perhaps that is what the trainer is trying to convey to you? (At least I hope so).

 

Meg spent three weeks in a shelter, went from home to home to home for a year (not bad homes, just not the right home), and then came to me lacking in confidence. She started out hiding behind furniture and in her crate when scared, progressed to hiding behind me and telling off any dogs or people that scared her, to cautiously (and quietly) sniffing new dogs and people from a few feet away, and finally where she is now...she wants to go up and sniff and say hi to just about every dog and most people. She'll even play with some of them or let some new people pet her. She is now overly confident in some situations and we're having to get her to tone it down a bit and not go charging off. She still 'hides' behind me when she doesn't now how to handle a situation, which is perfect, because then we can handle it together or walk away.

 

I'm thrilled with her progress and so is she...she now wears a big smile most of the time instead of a worried expression. It took us 2 1/2 years to get to this point though. So take it slow and don't give up. Sounds like your girl is already ahead of where Meg was at 2 years old (when we brought her home).

 

When Meg is stressed in training she'll sniff the ground and ignore me...this means we need to stop and switch to something she knows. Once she relaxes again, we stop training. I try not to stop while she is stressed because its best to end on a positive note (for both of us). Next time (could be 30 minutes later or a few days later) we try again but keep it more fun and relaxed, maybe taking a different approach.

 

In class, when the dog is stressed, have her do what she knows, reward her for it, and then stop. Observe the other dogs, listen to what the trainer is saying, and work on it at home. Then the next time you go to class, she'll know it and can do it in class and will be more confident. If the trainer questions you, explain, stand your ground, and (hopefully) show her at the next class that you were right. :D/>

 

Meg and I are fortunate enough to have great trainers nearby and our first trainer was really good at working with 'tough cases' (not sure Meg fit into that category, but the trainer had experience working with dogs much worse than Meg). She gave us some great tips and got us off to a great start. One of the best things she said to me was to stand up for my dog. If you don't agree with something, speak up and/or refuse to do it. It's okay! There is no one method that works for every dog. This trainer's dog Dahrma also helped Meg get past her fear reaction to strange dogs (which was over the top and made the other dogs react poorly to her).

 

Our agility trainer was more of a 'Ceasar Milan' style trainer when we first started going there though and I did have to step back and work on some things at home with Meg because the trainer's methods weren't right for her. We still work with this trainer and I'm glad to say she has learned from Meg and other dogs and has changed some of her methods.

 

Also, Meg really blossomed when we got into clicker training. I don't know if you're using a clicker, but Meg loves knowing exactly what she did that was right and working with a clicker helped boost her confidence a lot.

[TEC]

Just keep working with her and don't let the trainer's comments get you down. The trainer is trying to help I'm sure; not all of them go about it the best way.

 

I'm sure your pup's time spent at the pound had an impact on her, but don't use that as an excuse for her. Yeah, she had a rough time for a spell, but now its time to work with her and move past that. Perhaps that is what the trainer is trying to convey to you? (At least I hope so)...

 

...I'm thrilled with her progress and so is she...she now wears a big smile most of the time instead of a worried expression. It took us 2 1/2 years to get to this point though. So take it slow and don't give up. Sounds like your girl is already ahead of where Meg was at 2 years old (when we brought her home)...

 

... One of the best things she said to me was to stand up for my dog. If you don't agree with something, speak up and/or refuse to do it. It's okay! There is no one method that works for every dog. This trainer's dog Dahrma also helped Meg get past her fear reaction to strange dogs (which was over the top and made the other dogs react poorly to her)...

 

Well balanced, and IMO prudent advice. Well stated.

 

Attended a talk on historic Arcadia Orchards (circa 1911-1925) yesterday, along with faded black and white promotional movie from the era. You live in a beautiful area, and have excellent trainers. Pretty sure I know Dahrma and her handler. If I'm thinking of the same place, no better training facility in the NW.

 

Yup...be your dog's strongest advocate, protector, and at times a task master. Put the excuses away. Yours is sage advice. -- Kind regards, TEC