Aussiedoodle

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

Nice glasses...

 

So I guess it's now my turn to 'assume' from your comments that it is your opinion that a person should have no objection to someone bashing almost everything they love repeatedly. My dogs, my kennel, my friends, my husband...I'm surprised somebody didn't comment that my grandbabies were hideous and that I was exploiting them. I guess also the fact that I find this cruel and offensive is, in your mind, further proof that your comments were either founded or accurate in any way.

 

Really, hunny? Now you're just trying to start a fight. Calm down, the only person here who wants to fight is you.

[Eileen Stein]

If you are an indication of the management here then this makes everything I've read here more understandable. I can just assume that you find the term 'puppy mill' or 'money grubbing' less offensive then 'idiot' and that is your right I suppose.

 

It's not a matter of more offensive or less offensive. I will try to explain it better. If you say that someone is a puppy mill, the person may dispute that through factual discussion. The discussion may or may not persuade you or other readers that you were wrong, but at least the matter is open to factual discussion -- and, since this is a dog board, the discussion has subject matter relevance. Likewise, if you say that someone is money-grubbing in their breeding and sale of dogs, the person may dispute that through factual discussion and it is relevant to a discussion of dog breeding. But if you say that someone is an idiot, it's just an insult. It has no content. It does not advance the discussion in any way -- what could be more pointless and irrelevant than a discussion of whether someone is an idiot or not? It's flaming, with no redeeming social value.

 

I agree with you that the mention of your husband was offensive, and I don't care for the popcorn offshoot either. I expect it to stop now -- it doesn't advance the discussion either.

 

As for your initial font -- I've never seen anything like it before on ANY board, and it's hard for me to believe you thought it was a normal way to express yourself. It's not the way you express yourself on your website.

 

And I do contend that slander is the proper legal term for what is going on on your site. I don't have an attorney on speed dial, as I do my veterinarian, but I'll have to check this one out I think.

 

In seeking legal advice, be sure to tell the attorney that the content you object to was people's stated opinions and conclusions based on what you said about yourself and your breeding operation on your website -- they were not claiming to be conveying information they had about you apart from what you had put on your own website.

[geonni banner]

Ok, so I just spent about a half hour checking out the breeders website and there's something that doesn't work for me.

 

So the whole point of her breeding program is to produce a breed of dog which is non-shedding and endowed with hybrid vigor, because Australian Shepherds, lovely as they are, are shedders of blizzard proportions. And also she wants to get away from all those purebred dogs and their genetic bottleneck, which makes them all so prone to problems.

 

But she wants to produce a line of dogs that will "breed true" and be non-shedding. Isn't this just creating another purebred dog? Isn't it true that by only breeding dogs of the same "breed" and trying to fix appearance traits and non-shedding traits you will ultimately find yourself in the same genetic bottleneck that makes purebred dogs a nightmare of hereditary problems?

 

If you outcross to the founding breeds, in this case Australian Shepherds and/or Poodles, you don't have a purebred "breed" anymore. But if you don't outcross to dogs different genetically from yours, your dogs will eventually end up in that same genetic bottleneck because you've been culling everything that A, sheds, and B doesn't fit the phenotype you're after.

 

So what's the point? (Besides ego gratification and the generation of $$$$$) To me it is nothing short of delusional to imagine that you are doing anything different from the average AKC breeder - even if you choose the best stock you can afford to use in your breeding program.

 

My advice, which you are of course, free to ignore is this... If you want hybrid vigor, go to the pound. If you don't want dog hair on the floor get an A-5 clipper. To breed non-working "herding" breeds to "hypo-allergenic" breeds that aren't really, serves nothing but your bottom line. Go back to the Tennessee Walkers, have a nice trail ride. Get a Poodle with a good temperament, and leave the AKC to destroy the domestic dog as most people know it. Oh, and sort out that rebuttal page. You were allowed to come and scream on the Boards.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

Ok, so I just spent about a half hour checking out the breeders website and there's something that doesn't work for me......

 

I agree with this post wholeheartedly.

[NCStarkey]

Hello "Pecan Place",

 

I haven't commented on this thread previously, but I would like to share my thoughts about the term "puppy mill". In my opinion, anyone who mass produces puppies for the primary purpose of producing income operates a puppy mill. Your website shows six upcoming litters from mid-September to mid-October, and in my opinion, any breeder producing that many litters in a month's time is mass producing puppies.

 

I feel quite strongly about the dilemma in this country regarding the millions of dogs that are euthanized each year, simply because there aren't enough homes for them. In my opinion, the underlying cause of this dilemma is the overproduction of puppies (purebred or otherwise), mostly by backyard breeders and puppy mills. For every litter of puppies that is produced, homeless dogs will die, and you are partly responsible for their plight.

 

So, I am sorry if you feel offended by the term puppy mill, but if you are mass producing puppies for the purpose of making money (and according to your website, you are), there are many people (myself included) who feel that you are operating a puppy mill.

 

Regards,

nancy

[DeltaBluez Tess]

from your website....

 

This full page is in response to a 2 (at last viewing) page slamming of me and my kennel on a Border Collie website written by a lot of people with no real knowledge behind any of what they are saying. You may now skip this page completely if you desire or if you are not involved.

Apparently, one of the friends of the woman who started all of this bought a puppy from me and the complaining person couldn't understand why she had bought one of my non-shedding dogs over one of her pure-bred, wonderful, working stock dogs. So, this friend of my buyer felt the need to go onto her website and start a two page trashing of me and my kennel. First, I'd like to say that I currently own a Border Collie that will be 14 years old in November. I love Kona to death but, he sheds buckets of hair all year long and he has had severe hip dysplasia since he was 2 years old. He is on constant medication and I personally swim him to keep him comfortable and to keep his joints lubricated. I also want to state that I am NOT against pure-bred dogs, or any dogs that are well taken care of and bred responsibly. I thought I made that abundantly clear in my bio that states that I've shown dogs AKC and bred AKC dogs for about 22 of my 38 years.

I am a very 'live and let live' person in general and I also try to live my life in a glass house and not throw stones when I don't know the whole story behind a person but, I must say, I seriously object to people who don't know me, have never talked to me personally, have never visited my kennels (open invitation here) and who obviously know nothing about running a business or breeding dogs that start trashing me and my dogs and then won't allow me to reply on their website (I applied and am not offered the chance). They have posted my website address and named me directly but give me no opportunity to reply. This just might be a lawsuit, if I wanted to spend the time pursuing this rather than spend my time caring for, playing with and training my dogs.

Now, I'd like to address the outright lies and misconceptions they are spouting about me.

First and foremost: My prices,since this is what the most bashing was centered on...I'd like to say that I constantly watch the web at other Aussiedoodle sites and my prices are at and often well below the prices others are asking. I can also contend the many, many, purebred dogs are MUCH higher priced than my dogs. For this price you are getting a healthy, well socialized puppy from tested, well cared for, top quality breeding stock. I am thankful that my dogs are wonderful, desirable pets and that all my buyers agree and many are return customers. I am so very thankful that I can continue to breed top notch pets and have a career that I love and that I feel I am contributing something positive to the world to be remembered for. Thanks to all you wonderful, wonderful Aussiedoodle lovers past and future.

I'd like to further explain my prices from a business point of view. First, I have to buy my breeding stock as I am not either a poodle breeder or an Australian Shepherd breeder, although I have owned both,more than one of each. My poodles have cost me a minimum of 1000 each and up to 2500 for the good quality breeding dogs that I thought I was getting. To date, I have bought 13 poodles at these prices and to the purchase price you can add shipping and testing and vet care and food to each. Of the 13 that I have bought only four of these have passed my testing and temperament requirements for my Aussiedoodles. Of the nine that flunked out only one breeder has replaced their inferior stock, so, this was a total loss because I also had to pay to spay/neuter these dogs and then sometimes even pay shipping to re-home them. If they passed their eye tests then they likely flunked their hip tests and if they pass both the physical tests then they have been either too aggressive or too timid in temperament. So, if you want to average the costs for breeding stock and add in my foundation stock in Australian Shepherds, who, by the way, fared much better in health tests than my poodles, then you can easily say that the price of two puppies in every litter go towards paying for and acquiring my breeding dogs. Next, the price of one puppy in every litter , EACH MONTH, goes to paying for the high quality dog food I feed my dogs. (I feed Pride, Iams and Canidae) Next, the price of one puppy, EACH MONTH, goes to pay for my vet bills, which include yearly shots for everybody, any medications or vet checks my dogs need, puppy vaccinations and pregnancy checks and C-sections and spays and/or neuters for my retired dogs or for any of my dogs medical needs. My dogs are all also on heartworm monthly plus Advantix II and I assure they don't give away these products. Next, the price of one puppy, EACH MONTH goes to pay for my power that involves keeping all my dogs comfortable. All have access to one of my 8 large fenced play yards and they also have access to indoor runs that are cooled by large fans all summer long (I don't believe in air conditioning as the extremes between indoors and out are too extreme, except in the area of the babies and then it is whatever is necessary) and also the kennel is heated during the cold months with a new, state of the art furnace servicing just the kennel that I installed last winter at the cost of 3800. Plus the price of propane to use this is generally more than what I pay to heat my house. So, if only I was raking in all the money that the uninformed think that I am. I can't even begin to calculate the misc. category as I've spent literally thousands on dog beds, feeders, toys, leashes, power washers, detergents, sanitizers, dog CD's for my pups, etc, etc,etc. It costs a LOT of money to maintain and continue to improve a good kennel operation. IF I WAS A PUPPY MILL none of the above would be necessary. They further went on to disparage my AKC friends and say they also were show kennel puppy mills. They have absolutely no knowledge of who my friends were, and are, and I can insure you they included some of the top kennels in their breeds and also a couple of AKC dog judges. I will NOT drop names but IF I did you would recognize some of my past show friends names when you watch Westminster every year.

Next, they claim that I am deceiving my buyers by saying my dogs do not shed...none of the people slamming me have owned an Aussiedoodle or have mentioned even knowing one. As I said, I own a Border Collie and have for the past almost 14 years and I can very truthfully say I could put him in a room with 10 of my Aussiedoodles and he alone would shed 10 times more than all of them combined. This is also true of any of my full Aussies that I have so, I know what I'M talking about from experience and fact.

Next, they say they see no need for this cross. I REPEAT...I LOVE THE HERDING DOGS and I also want my dogs to share my couch, my bed and my carpets but I DON'T want to spend many many hours each day cleaning up dog hair and being embarrassed to have non-doggy company show up unexpectedly to a house full of dog hair because I hadn't vacuumed in the last couple of hours. Besides my Border I've owned Pulik that lived to be almost 16 years old in my quest for the herding temperament, plus the non-shedding aspect. I also know from years of experience and from that of my herding dog friends, one is a super Border Collie breeder of 100% working stock, that the herding dogs can often have a tendency of either being too shy or too aggressive with strangers, thus the further need to inject the poodle as an aid in making a more family friendly, gregarious breed. You could do this with natural selection of more outgoing Australian Shepherds also but then you'd still have a wonderful pet that sheds buckets.

Next, I am slammed because I mentioned I love herding dogs and they claim I don't even work my dogs. If I did say I worked my dogs then I'm sure they'd claim I don't have time to take care of the stock necessary to work my dogs AND have time remaining to care for my dogs' emotional and physical needs. To this I would have to say, guilty. I used to also have Tennessee Walking horses for my own pleasure but as my kennel has grown I've sold my horses to give me more time to spend on my dogs. I do know quite a lot about herding temperaments from my days teaching/assisting dog obedience classes for my kennel club. My ducks I raised back in those days were often enlisted for herding demonstrations for these events. I might also further contend that Border Collies, although I love them, are not for everybody and are often too smart and thus hard to train for the common owner and one of the highest number of dogs abandoned at shelters. I am trying to avoid this with 'our' new breed. I also have AKC friends that raise Corgis, Cattle Dogs, Belgians, German Shepherds and Border Collies. Not to mention my favorites the Australian Shepherds. I believe that my Aussiedoodles retain the most desirable traits of my loved herding 'purebreds'. And seriously, how many of you are looking at my site for working dogs...I'm sure, at least I hope, that what you want by looking here is just what I'm trying to breed...'TOP NOTCH FAMILY/COMPANION DOGS' that can share your every waking moment with a minimum of upkeep.

Next, they go on to say that my dogs don't even get vet checks. THIS HAS NO BASIS IN ANY FACT WHATSOEVER and I, and my Veterinarian, that I have on speed dial, take great offense to this. If you would like to check this out personally I use Wendy Probst at either Town and Country Veterinary Clinic in McCleansboro,IL or her Harrisburg,IL office. I won't post the numbers as I will leave all of you to Google the office yourself lest you think I'm giving out a friends' number to field calls. HOW DARE THEY SAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS ABOUT ME AND NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT AND NOT GIVE ME A CHANCE TO RESPOND ON THEIR FORUM. I have to repeat again that I feel this is legally slander. Shame on you all with too much time and little to NO knowledge about who and what you are trashing.

Now, the last point I'm actually going to address. (although I could go on indefinitely defending lies and assumptions since they have even gone so far as to slander me personally (with no knowledge) and say I basically just sit around counting all the money I'm collecting from ignorant dupes and that my husband is doing all the work caring for my dogs). So, I must address the number of litters that they find offensive. One, not all the dogs I breed will actually get pregnant, and two at least two of the females I have bred having a history of only 2 to 3 puppies. Several others should only have 5 as they predicted. One puppy in each of these litters will be kept here, if I get what I'm hoping to, for future breeding stock or I don't breed the litter. Excuse me also if I just wait and see if they are pregnant, while constantly monitoring their health and well being and changing them to the higher priced puppy food for their pregnancy, and 'neglect' them by not taking them to the vet for palpations and/or ultrasounds. I do this if this is necessary when/if I see any sort of problem, but not as a routine process to monitor a normal pregnancy. I can honestly say that I am much more careful with my dogs health than with my own and will take them in to be checked if I see any sign of trouble. I generally ignore this in myself and get them checked.

I must seriously thank a couple of the more informed people on this Border Collie site for championing hybrid vigor and also for actually understanding it. They say, and I agree, that the most important thing is not duplicate a fault that both breeds carry...in this instance that is the eyes and the hips as these are the main faults that the Poodle and the Australian Shepherd share (all dogs either pure bred or cross bred have faults) and this is why all my breeding stock are eye tested and hip tested. And I go even further in rejecting dogs that don't pass my strict temperament tests. Then, the next step necessary is that you don't double up and linebreed your cross and destroy the hybrid vigor that the cross breeding creates. To this end it takes very careful pedigree studies and lots of different crosses and litters to develop a new breed. To this end I have first bought the best stock I could buy in the parent breeds and have also combined several times with a great friend and local Aussiedoodle breeder 'Kris Robards at Double R Aussiedoodles' and in this manner I'm able to have more dogs and a larger gene pool to pull from. I personally am developing my lines on a Patriarchal system and I have my Wyatt line, my Scotch line(courtesy of Double R), my Clark line and I am now adding two new poodle boys (one from CH parents with a CH pedigree going back 5 generations...go AKC purebreds) and hopefully these new, expensive, additions will help keep your new pets super healthy (from the hybrid vigor) and also non-shedding.

I also want to say that none of my dogs are throw away and the fact that many of the Border people took offense to my wording is just an indication of the mob mentality and of ignorance breeding ignorance. (Ever play a game of 'Gossip')... I do not keep my dogs in little boxes squeezing money making puppies randomly out of them. All have good full lives here with lots of attention and excellent care and feeding. If I mention they are a 'tad' under socialized this is in reference to my past socialization skills when showing dogs AKC. As many of you may know you do not win a dog show, and I did win many, with a dog that is not 'SUPER' socialized and used to everything from showing inside and out, to bomb threats and babies screaming and throwing up ring side. To this end I will admit that although my dogs get free time hiking with me and my husband and swimming in the pool with us they don't get away from home much due to the fact of worry of possibly bringing in disease to tiny babies not immune to them. To this end I may err too often on the side of caution. I used the phrase that my dogs are re-homed when I get what 'I need' from them. I don't see how this is possibly offensive if you know one single thing about breeding programs and genetics. I get puppies from my breeding dogs, while giving them much love and care, and then retire them at a very young age (by breeding standards) so they can continue their lives as family pets in a single dog environment. How is this any different than you or I working for a living and then retiring, hopefully, to enjoy the rest of our lives. If it is animal cruelty for a dog to have two or three litters in its' life and then find a wonderful retirement home then I guess by this outrageous standard then I'm guilty. I personally find this thinking, and a lot of the other complaints raised about me personally and my kennel practices, fanatical and counter intuitive.

If anybody looking at my site would like to get a less expensive, less thought out, less healthy and more shedding dog then this is still a free country and you have my blessings and best wishes to buy what you want. If you want a top notch pet, from outstanding breeding dogs, with outstanding health and planned breeding practices then shop here. I feel that you often get what you pay for and quality is not cheap. There are Aussiedoodle breeders out there that are jumping on the band wagon and breeding to make a buck but they won't continue to be in business for long and the serious 'cream' of the crop as far as breeders will rise to the top as has historically been proven. I only pray that when this happens I continue to be one of the good, caring, responsible breeders. If I was independently wealthy and could 'give away' the puppies that I raise I still don't think I would do so because people don't seem to value and care for something they get for nothing and I want my babies to be loved and cherished family members.

THANKS TO EVERYBODY FOR TAKING THE TIME TO FOLLOW UP HERE AS I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO DEFEND MYSELF ON THEIR SITE WHERE THEY POSTED MY WEB ADDRESS REPEATEDLY. AND PULLED SNIPS OFF MY SITE 'OUT OF CONTEXT' AND ADDED THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS. NOT ONE OF THEM CONTACTED ME TO ASK ME A SINGLE QUESTION BEFORE THE BASHING!!!

 

 

8-31-11, 9 pm

I have just been granted access to the border collie site that is bashing me and have left my response there as well as directing anybody who wants the truth to visit here and actually learn something, rather than the lies and assumptions being made by self admitted, non educated (only referring to Doodle knowledge here) individuals. Hopefully they all have the decency to at least get the facts before spouting off again. I have refrained from bashing their beloved 'Border Collie' because even though I own and love one I also know they are a very difficult breed to own and train and can well understand how these folks might think that all dogs are as difficult as their 'breed' and that they would need CONSTANT stimulation and attention. I also know many BC's that are dangerous around children since the dogs are so dedicated and driven that they are prone to attack small fast moving objects (especially small children) perceiving these babies as either prey or stock that they are bred to 'control'. I also know some wonderful loving BC's so I'm not going to throw a blanket statement over the whole breed like some of them are doing with every 'DOODLE' in the world. I can see where maybe some infusion of the more pliable poodle could benefit this breed also and I'm glad that somebody mentioned that they are doing it in England. I'm sure also that many BC's are dumped due only to the fact that they shed too much for most people. (right or wrong...and my opinion is definitely that this is wrong) But, this is the sad way of the world and I don't want my babies to meet the same fate some day.

 

 

Please point out where i said " complaining person couldn't understand why she had bought one of my non-shedding dogs over one of her pure-bred, wonderful, working stock dogs" (I highlighted it in red above)

 

1. I never offered to sell a pup to my friend nor would I.

2. I don't have any pups for sale

3. Where does it say in my original post that I couldn't understand why my friend had got one of your dogs than one of my dogs

4. This is not my website.

 

F1 or Hybrid vigor can work. You have to know what you are striving for.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

[Gloria Atwater]

Dear "Pecan Place,"

 

Your website is presently advertising 8 litters of puppies to be born within 30-40 days. That's how we dare. Is this something you do annually?

 

Claiming the AKC umbrella ease doesn't any minds here, either, since AKC will register any litter of pups with AKC parentage. They offer no oversight as to who is breeding what - or how many or how often. Nor does AKC registration offer the slightest guarantee as to a dog's health or soundness.

 

Further, you state on your website that you "can't be sure" if a breeding has taken until 3 weeks before the bitch is due to whelp. Oh, really? This begs the question, does Pecan have more breeding bitches than she can afford to properly monitor?

 

Finally, your statement on the site about selling dogs as "retired after I get what I need from them" is both unfortunate and alarming. I can't think of anyone on these boards who would get rid of a beloved dog simply because she's produced a couple litters and rendered herself obsolete. Your caveat that you don't want to keep a bitch and "just make money" from her strikes us as facetious, since you simply go ahead and make money from countless bitches to follow.

 

In summary, I understand you don't like the opinions expressed on this forum, but I doubt any tour of your kennels would put anyone's mind at rest. 8 litters of puppies within a month's (+/-) time is a red flag to most people here.

 

By the way, slander is oral, not written. Things posted here could technically be labeled "libel," but since people are offering opinions or theories, not deliberate falsehoods, I doubt that would fly, either.

Regards,

 

Gloria

P.S.

Interesting that your vehement mention of your poor old border collie complains of his hair and hip dysplasia above anything else.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

..... my bad.... my friend bought the pup at 7 weeks but got him later.... I had misspoke when I said he got his pup at 7 weeks... his pup is doing fine and he is a good pet...

 

but I never offered to sell him a pup nor did he ever ask to buy one!!

[rufftie]

please excuse my ignorance, but what does F1 mean? (it may have been explained earlier in one of the longer posts, but i have a tendency to skim.) thanks.

[jdarling]

PP,

 

On your PRICING page, you state:

 

"Solid puppies start at 450 males and 500 females."

 

Why are females more expensive than males? Are they better? It's not because they have a uterus and throw entire litters of puppies that their new owners make money off and you want a piece of that, is it? Surely it's not ... because only puppy mills do that type of stuff.

 

Then you have this:

 

"Example of solid with exceptional markings 700 to 1000."

 

What are "exceptional markings" for a pet, and why are they more expensive? Is it because that's what the market will bear? Seriously, it's not like you can show your mutts in the show ring, so why does it matter how their markings came out? Do particular markings make them better dogs?

 

And here's the kicker:

 

"Example of top dog, red merle with blaze, full white collar and white socks start at 1000 to 1200."

 

I guess this is what the ultimate mutt looks like, huh? A red merle with Aussie markings? And that's enough to justify charging more than twice (and almost three times) that of a terribly marked male?

 

Since what you are breeding cannot be considered "herding" dogs (since when is a Mini-Aussie considered a "herding" dog?), and in fact, cannot even be registered, they can only be considered pets, correct? If all you are selling are pets, are all of the puppies you sell required to be spayed and neutered so that all of the people who buy puppies from your gazillion litters aren't able to turn around and breed a gazillion more litters?

 

Do you have a regular day job, or is this it?

 

You seem to be real big on this shedding thing. Here's a newsflash. Dogs have hair. Instead of doing no justice to not one breed but two, why not get a bird and call it good?

 

You know what's really sad? You wouldn't be breeding a million puppies and doing what you're doing if there wasn't a demand for it. The only "idiots" I see in this entire scenario are the people who buy puppies from you. Every last one of them.

[NCStarkey]

Hi rufftie,

 

You asked about the meaning of F1....here you go:

 

Purebred-A x Purebred-B = F1 Hybrid

 

Regards,

nancy

[rufftie]

thanks Nancy. that makes the discussion easier to understand.

[Mark Billadeau]

also.......

 

F1B doodle = purebred-A (or purebred-B ) x F1 doodle

multigen doodle or "purebred" doodle = doodle x doodle

 

Neither of these will have the potential benifits of hybrid vigor

[rufftie]

doodle boggling!

thanks Mark!

[Eileen Stein]

please excuse my ignorance, but what does F1 mean? (it may have been explained earlier in one of the longer posts, but i have a tendency to skim.) thanks.

 

F1 stands for "filial 1" or "first filial." It designates the first generation offspring of a cross between two different breeds, species or types. If you breed an Aussie to a Poodle, their pups are the F₁ generation. If you then breed those pups together, their offspring are the F₂ generation. And so forth.

[Maralynn]

I have refrained from bashing their beloved 'Border Collie' because even though I own and love one I also know they are a very difficult breed to own and train and can well understand how these folks might think that all dogs are as difficult as their 'breed' and that they would need CONSTANT stimulation and attention. I also know many BC's that are dangerous around children since the dogs are so dedicated and driven that they are prone to attack small fast moving objects (especially small children) perceiving these babies as either prey or stock that they are bred to 'control'.

 

:lol:

 

Gotta laugh at this one. Last winter I'd spend hours a day attending school and doing homework. My 3 *difficult* dogs would snooze in the background or chew on a bone.

 

In fact my current two (at the ages of 2 and 6) just hang out with me 3/4 of the time. They get good training and exercise then they are expected to "chill" which they do quite nicely.

 

The fallacy is not in the breed. It is when one gets an intelligent working breed of dog then expects it to be self training and fails to meet the needs of the dog. IOW, it's a human problem, not a dog or breed one.

[D'Elle]

Well, JMO, but I think this thread has become somewhat beyond ridiculous. We have this puppy-mill operator screaming at us in huge font (and then trying to excuse it away with a lame-sounding excuse,) ranting away and trying to defend her operation while (methinks the lady doth protest too much) sounding to me more and more unbalanced, and we have a bunch of us here chiming in.

 

The only way that operations like this will be shut down, or that any puppy mill will be shut down, is if those of us who care about dogs put our efforts into educating the public about puppy mills and dogs, genetics and breeds and the absurdity of "hypo-allergenic dogs", and let them understand why they should not buy from people who run puppy mills. Arguing with the puppy-mill operators will get us nowhere. Clearly they are interested only in the almighty dollar that they are making and are not the least bit willing to listen to the voice of reason. They already think they know it all, and so cannot learn anything. We are wasting our time doing this.

[MrSnappy]

They already think they know it all, and so cannot learn anything. We are wasting our time doing this.

 

Maybe the puppymill breeder won't listen to what people have to say (it's probably difficult to hear it over the cha-ching of the cash register) but maybe someone else will. After all, people are buying these ridiculous aussiedoodles, otherwise she wouldn't be pumping them out with any regularity. So maybe someone reading a thread like this will have a new perspective on buying an aussiedoodle from a puppymill and not do it. After all, isn't that the point of virtually every theoretical discussion on this board? To get the message out there? Surely it isn't to change the POV of the perpetrator ... by now everyone's figured out how rarely THAT happens. But maybe it will change someone else's POV.

 

RDM

[D'Elle]

Maybe the puppymill breeder won't listen to what people have to say (it's probably difficult to hear it over the cha-ching of the cash register) but maybe someone else will. After all, people are buying these ridiculous aussiedoodles, otherwise she wouldn't be pumping them out with any regularity. So maybe someone reading a thread like this will have a new perspective on buying an aussiedoodle from a puppymill and not do it. After all, isn't that the point of virtually every theoretical discussion on this board? To get the message out there? Surely it isn't to change the POV of the perpetrator ... by now everyone's figured out how rarely THAT happens. But maybe it will change someone else's POV.

 

RDM

 

RDM-

 

Good point. I hope that this is so.

D'Elle

[Lewis Moon]

The fallacy is not in the breed. It is when one gets an intelligent working breed of dog then expects it to be self training and fails to meet the needs of the dog. IOW, it's a human problem, not a dog or breed one.

 

This is exactly correct. I think the goal of many companion animal breeders is to produce what I refer to as "suitcase animals". That is; animals small enough, docile enough and care free enough that the owner can basically disengage from any requirement for training once potty training has been achieved. My wife and I always talk about those dogs only needing a suitcase handle to make them easier to deal with.

 

Border collies should and will never be suitcase dogs. You'll notice that a large part of this site (and many other BC sites) is dedicated to educating people about the requirements of owning an active, intelligent, athletic dog. We believe this is a feature, NOT a bug.

No need to cross it with anything and breed it out. Yes this guy VVV is a mutt. Some might attach the boutique breed name "borador" to him. He is NOT a borador. He's a smart, active, neutered, rescue mutt in all his hybrid vigor glory....

[brady's mom]

Woah.

 

I would hardly call what transpired in this discussion "bashing" or "slander" until you thought it a mature, wise decision to come barging in on the boards and shouting your protests for all to hear. Clearly there are some underlying insecurities regarding your practice, otherwise you would have come into this discussion to speak with us about your discontent like an ADULT.

 

So, on that note, check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[SecretBC]

Well the good news is that in the future if anyone decides to google this breeder or "aussiedoodle," it is highly probable that this thread will pop up. Yay! Hopefully any potential buyers will read every last word of it and make an educated decision based on the information within.

 

And, of course, decipher that this "Breeder" is loony and not someone you'd ever want to work with.

 

No amount of information, factual or made up, will EVER make me have any respect for any doodle breeder. The entire industry is a scam.

[puppytoes]

To the breeder in question,

 

Let me preface this by saying that i have not visited your website and so am basing my questions and assumptions on what i have read in this thread. Let me also say that i have never had a female dog through pregnancy and i have never helped to whelp pups.

 

It has been stated that you are expecting 8 litters (if i remember correctly) in the next few months. Now if that is the case you must have at least 8 adult female dogs on site (plus your border collie) and at least a few males unless you only use studs. Now i only have 2 dogs but i find that with a job and a baby, meeting both of their needs (mentally and physically) can occasionally be a challenge. How do you manage to keep those dogs mentally and physically fit(even assuming that you breed for a living and do not have young children)? Then if each of your females has 5 puppies, you will have an additional 40 dogs to look after. How is it even humanly possible to socialize that many puppies? And to get to know them enough as individulas to place them in the kinds of homes that will suite their needs/personalities?

 

I suspect that the breeder has said her piece and will not respond but i tend to think that most people who breed dogs in this manner do not think that they are doing the dogs any diservice. But i just don't get it.

 

P.S. If the border collie (or any other type of dog for that matter) does not suit you needs/wants, please leave them to those of us that love them for their very border collieness and find another dog - we don't need these kinds of improvements.

[Pecan Place]

40 pups at $500 per pup.....wow, I should quit my day job! This is all in ONE MONTH's TIME

 

Just kidding....

 

Hey Delta,

I just wanted to try to educate you on dog physiology since it is apparent you aren't too knowledgable on this subject. DOGS ONLY COME IN SEASON, ON AN AVERAGE, OF EVERY SIX MONTHS, not monthly. These litters are my fall litters and half a years progeny.

Let me also enlighten you to the fact that not every dog that is bred has puppies...wow...ever consider that!#$%

For my other half of this year, this last Spring, I bred 7 females and only five of them had litters, for whatever reason that I don't intend to get into here. Of the five that did have litters, two had to have C-sections at the cost of two puppies for the surgeries. (by your calculations) One female only had 2 pups, two others had 4 each and the other 2 had 7 puppies each. After I kept back my breeding stock, which is the main reason I breed the females, and not to retire in a year or two as you would have people to believe, that was another five puppies that there was no income from. Hope you are able to follow this, I can slow down if necessary. Now of the total of the 24 puppies that I had for Spring, 7 are bringing in no income whatsover, that now leaves 17 if you need some help here. Since this was half a years work/pay for me then the price of 6 puppies should be held back for 6 mos of quality dog food(now 11 remaining), another 6 puppies worth of income, give or take one or two, needs to be held back for my vet bills and power to keep my kennels comfortable and to run my grooming needs and another 6 puppies worth of income should be held back for maintenance, replacement breeding stock (to retain hybrid vigor I need to have different lines constantly and I really can't call to the corner and order a new Aussidoodle as not many breeders are doing the multigens, of course you probably already knew that...you are an expert on this subject apparently) and, of yeah, I'd like to add a new roof to the kennel and more insulation to keep my dogs comfortable. I had intended to continue, but darn it, I'm out of puppies and I still have more bills. Wow, I think maybe college would have been in order because, the way I do it anyway, this is not a huge money making operation. If you want to quit your job maybe you should buy more than two dogs, or you can totally neglect their care and rake in the dough till they drop dead. I personally could not sleep nites if I did this, but you do what you feel is right.

Let me explain why I only have a couple of times a year to do what I want to do in my program...As I said, female dogs only generally come in season twice a year and they all, inconsiderately from a planning point of view, all do it at once when the Alpha female says it's time to do so. Although it would be very nice to have litters equally spaced out in the year to not have the feast or famine atmosphere that animal husbandry dictates, this is not the way the real world is.

I'd like to also say that I breed dogs. I do not apologize for breeding top quality dogs from tested breeding stock. I love my dogs and my buyers love their dogs and this is really what is important here. I also breed my dogs between two to four times in a lifetime and then they are retired to loving pet homes...100% placement rate so far, and people on a waiting list for older trained dogs. Let me put this into prospective for you since you seem to be more about spouting then thinking...I raise a dog, or buy a breeding dog from an outside kennel. This dog is raised here with top quality food, medical care, environmental control, acres to run on and play till they reach a breeding age of 12 to 24 months and then they are bred, sometimes only once and never more than a total of 4 lifetime litters, and then retired. I would love to be one of my dogs. Most people work 50% to 75% of their lives and then may or may not have the funds or time to enjoy their lives. (Both my parents worked all their lives and then were killed before they got to enjoy one minute of retirement) So, how can you bleeding hearts think that because my dogs work for approx 1 to 3 years of their 16 to 20 year lifespan that they should be the object of sympathy. Save it for starving children. So, they do not die on the same location or with the same family they were born to, does anybody? Do we not raise our children and then send them out into the world to carry on with a new family. What if this same dog was in the wild and its' mate got killed several times in its' lifetime, should you then regale and accuse nature of abuse. So what if a dog is re-homed to a new family...my grandbabies are military brats and they are ripped from their home and friends at least every two years. How is it that you think this is cause for sympathy for a dog to find it a new home after living here and being much loved when it happens every day to military children. Should be enforce a sterility clause to all the millions and millions of military families for allowing their children to be moved from where they are comfortable and re-homed. Many times without the presence or help of a spouse. Get real!!!

I think that maybe you, and others that have posted here, should take this opportunity to put on your 'big girl panties' and look at what is really important in the world. You, and society in general sometimes, have a warped understanding of what is important in the world. Most people can see hundreds or thousands of dead or dying children, due to poverty or disasters, and not blink an eye but let a commercial come on with an abused dog or kitten in the photo and there is not a dry eye in the place.

I love my dogs to death and yes, they all not only have names, they all respond to their names. I have four dogs lying at my feet as I type and tomorrow there will probably four or five dogs at my feet again. Maybe the same four and maybe four others that get to be my 'on again-off again' house dogs. Do I apologize for this either...NO. Dogs are animals...not people... and the most natural thing in the world for them is to live their life in a pack. I am only part of their pack, and if they are not with me then they are running and playing in the huge play yards with other members of their pack. Or swimming in their swimming pools, or playing with the many, many toys they have available. (I just spent 179 dollars on new toys at PetsMart today, as I do about twice a month). I do love ALL my dogs and they get toys, treats, love and the expected pats and baby talk and belly rubs but I do not think they are people and I do not think they DESERVE to live their whole lives doing absolutely nothing as spoiled pampered pets. I don't know one human on earth that has the options most of you here think that dogs are entitled to and that if they don't get is tantamount to abuse. Grow up and grow some real prospective, and leave people alone if you don't have any idea what you are talking about.