Aussiedoodle

[Laurae]

Well. She sure told you, Delta.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

"I just wanted to try to educate you on dog physiology since it is apparent you aren't too knowledgable on this subject."

"Let me also enlighten you to the fact that not every dog that is bred has puppies...wow...ever consider that!#$%"

"Hope you are able to follow this, I can slow down if necessary."

"...you are an expert on this subject apparently)"

"Let me put this into prospective for you since you seem to be more about spouting then thinking."

"I think that maybe you, and others that have posted here, should take this opportunity to put on your 'big girl panties' and look at what is really important in the world."

"You, and society in general sometimes, have a warped understanding of what is important in the world."

"Grow up and grow some real prospective, and leave people alone if you don't have any idea what you are talking about"

 

I'm going to be very honest right now, Pecan Place. First off, STOP with the insults. I'm only 16 years old, and the level of immaturity you are showing surpasses anything and everything I have seen in my two and a half years of high school. There is absolutely no reason that you cannot view the posts and respond in a mature, adult manner. Sure, there were some rude comments. But those have stopped, have they not? People are writing to you maturely now, hoping that you will respond in the same way. By quoting that post you are taking the dead horse and beating it.

We can all be adults here, can we not?

 

Thank you.

[Pecan Place]

To the breeder in question,

 

Let me preface this by saying that i have not visited your website and so am basing my questions and assumptions on what i have read in this thread. Let me also say that i have never had a female dog through pregnancy and i have never helped to whelp pups.

 

It has been stated that you are expecting 8 litters (if i remember correctly) in the next few months. Now if that is the case you must have at least 8 adult female dogs on site (plus your border collie) and at least a few males unless you only use studs. Now i only have 2 dogs but i find that with a job and a baby, meeting both of their needs (mentally and physically) can occasionally be a challenge. How do you manage to keep those dogs mentally and physically fit(even assuming that you breed for a living and do not have young children)? Then if each of your females has 5 puppies, you will have an additional 40 dogs to look after. How is it even humanly possible to socialize that many puppies? And to get to know them enough as individulas to place them in the kinds of homes that will suite their needs/personalities?

 

I suspect that the breeder has said her piece and will not respond but i tend to think that most people who breed dogs in this manner do not think that they are doing the dogs any diservice. But i just don't get it.

 

P.S. If the border collie (or any other type of dog for that matter) does not suit you needs/wants, please leave them to those of us that love them for their very border collieness and find another dog - we don't need these kinds of improvements.

 

I will answer your question in saying please read my earlier response where I stated that I had bred 7 females for the Spring litters and only five had babies and this was for a total of 24 puppies. I won't bore you and repeat all this, just please read the other post. Also, please do visit my website and then you would know that I do not work outside my home and my family is across the country and I am an empty nester that is totally devoted to my husband and my dogs.

I can also go on to say that my 'vocation' of breeding dogs is not an easy vocation but I do it because I am passionate about it and because I love the thrill of creating something wonderful. I can also go on to say that I start almost every day at 5 or 6 am and end it at about 11 pm. That gives me an abundant amount of time to tend to my socializing and grooming, etc, etc. because that is all I do. I am a basic workacholic and my dogs are not lacking either emotionally or physically. As I have stated, any of you are welcome to visit my kennels, and the main problem here is that none of you have before you started bashing me. I'd also like to know why you all are so hung up by the breeding of 8 litters. You aren't even aware of how many dogs might be expected in a litter. When I bred and showed Dalmatians for 12 years I would breed two litters at a time and this would generally result in about 12 in one litter and I had one female that always had 14 puppies. So, get off the numbers tangent and let me assure you that I would never breed more at one time then I have the time or facilities to handle properly. All of you are also unaware, since you have no real idea of situation, that my husband is an angel about helping me and he also loves the dogs and I also have friends at work that live for puppy time and coming over to play with the babies. I also have some very old, retired church ladies that love nothing more than playing with the babies. I assure that I do know what I am doing and my dogs are not lacking for anything. So, could you, and everyone else, please, in the nicest way I know to ask, just back off me and my kennel. I did nothing to start all of this except sell a nice, healthy puppy to a lady that one of you 'happen' to know and as far as she has told me, this buyer loves her puppy, so what is the beef with all of you here.

I also assure that I have NO intention of getting into your breed, ever. I have one true love in my dog life after a lifetime of being surrounded by dogs and dog people and exposure to all the groups and varieties.

Take care

[DeltaBluez Tess]

from your website....

 

Please point out where i said " complaining person couldn't understand why she had bought one of my non-shedding dogs over one of her pure-bred, wonderful, working stock dogs"

 

 

1. I never offered to sell a pup to my friend nor would I.

2. I don't have any pups for sale

3. Where does it say in my original post that I couldn't understand why my friend had got one of your dogs than one of my dogs

4. This is not my website.

 

 

I am waiting to see where you saw in my original post that you stated on your website that " complaining person couldn't understand why she had bought one of my non-shedding dogs over one of her pure-bred, wonderful, working stock dogs"

 

Here is my actual post

 

"So a friend of mine got a pupt from this place.

 

http://pecanplacepoo...urhomepage.html

 

The 'breeder' talked a good talk and sold her a 7 week old pup. She claims it will never shed and is a good family dog. So when I got home, I had to look up the 'breeder' and see what she spent $500 on....

 

all I can say is wow......the 'breeder' had her convinced that F1 dogs are the ONLY one to get as all the purebreeds are genetic nightmares etc.... "

 

 

 

 

Delta

[geonni banner]

Yo, PP. You might want to check this out...

 

Pro`spec´tive

a. 1. Of or pertaining to a prospect; furnishing a prospect; perspective.

Time's long and dark prospective glass.

- Milton.

2. Looking forward in time; acting with foresight; - opposed to retrospective.

The French king of Sweden are circumspect, industrious, and prospective, too, in this affair.

- Sir J. Child.

3. Being within view or consideration, as a future event or contingency; relating to the future: expected; as, a prospective benefit.

Points on which the promises, at the time of ordination, had no prospective bearing.

- W. Jay.

n. 1. The scene before or around, in time or in space; view; prospect.

 

2. A perspective glass.

 

 

per•spec•tive

noun

1.

a technique of depicting volumes and spatial relationships on a flat surface. Compare aerial perspective, linear perspective.

2.

a picture employing this technique, especially one in which it is prominent: an architect's perspective of a house.

3.

a visible scene, especially one extending to a distance; vista: a perspective on the main axis of an estate.

4.

the state of existing in space before the eye: The elevations look all right, but the building's composition is a failure in perspective.

5.

the state of one's ideas, the facts known to one, etc., in having a meaningful interrelationship: You have to live here a few years to see local conditions in perspective.

 

(I think maybe you wanted definition 5 of perspective.)

 

To use it in a sentence we might consider:

 

Folks here are clear on the concept that you think you are doing a good thing, but instead of bursting into flame you might consider your breeding choices from a new perspective.

[Pecan Place]

also.......

 

F1B doodle = purebred-A (or purebred-B ) x F1 doodle

multigen doodle or "purebred" doodle = doodle x doodle

 

Neither of these will have the potential benifits of hybrid vigor

 

Oh contrare, Mr Mark. As you seem to know more than the average person here about genetics then you should also know that you get the benefits of hybrid vigor, to lessening degrees, for the first FOUR generations of crossbreds. This is also assuming that you do as I do and do not linebreed any of your crossbreeds. Thus the need for more litters/outcrosses, or access to different lines from other breeders (sigh, not an option,although I have tried), to have different lines to breed together.

A multigen can be either a F1 X F1(too much chance of throwbacks for me), an F1 X F1b = F2b (my preferred, by necessity at this point in my program) which is about 60% Aussie, or, an F1 X F2b which is what I am starting in the Spring and comes very close to the half and half mark of lineage, and then just doodle to doodle thereafter with an occasional cross back to the poodle if necessary for matters of coat. Recommended no more than every 3rd generation. So, multigen is somewhat of a generic term that really doesn't tell you what generation you are getting or what percentage of each factor is possible.

[Liz P]

If you are breeding doodle x doodle then you have lost your hybrid vigor. Poodles often have a COI up to and sometimes exceding 75%. You get improved vigor relative to the poodle in the F1, but after that you are reducing it again. If you prefer aussiedoodles to either aussies or poodles that's fine, but don't argue that your doodle x doodle crosses are any healthier.

 

Btw, the pregnancy rate in border collies is near 100% after a natural breeding. Whelping problems are rare. Their average COI is 6.25%. This information was just provided as a comparison.

[geonni banner]

Does COI = Coefficient of Inbreeding?

 

If so, up to 75%? Yikes! Scary...

[Pecan Place]

Sorry, double post.

 

I'm glad that we are all being adult now and 'not' bashing the breeder on every aspect of every post. Wow, did you make an error and double post, is everybody gonna jump on that one.

 

 

I would hope that we could agree to disagree and I would like to state once again that I did nothing whatsoever to initiate this deluge. I do now, and will probably always, contend and believe that I am creating a wonderful companion that many people desire in their lives and 'no animals where hurt in the making' no matter what any of you here think.

I have also stated that I LOVE my Border Collie but I also know for a fact that he, and many others that my dear friend and Border Collie breeder friend has bred, are not a dog for the faint of heart or non Alpha types. There are also probably many little BC angels running around out in the world. I also am abundantly aware that there is no absolutely perfect dog for every situation which is why there are so many other different breeds here and across the world. My crossbreed is filling a need a society niche and is becoming much loved and I did not get into this conversation, and had in fact decided to ignore it completely, until not only my dogs but my kennel practices, past friends and my husband had been mentioned and disparaged. I suppose all of you, as evidenced by YOUR comments would have taken this calmer and with much more ignoring of the barbs.

Even the 16 year old that is commenting can see that there were many cruel and uncalled for remarks made, before I even joined in. And yes, I made a fool of my first post with the fonts but it doesn't lessen the content. I had never used your site before and your editing page appears like an ant had crawled through an inkwell to me since my eyesite is indeed deteriorated by diabetic issues so I clicked on the font size to enlarge it and it said the size I chose was a number seven and since I send my emails on a 14 font I was aware it was going to come out nine feet tall till I saw the same time all of you did. So, you can either choose to believe this true explanation or you can CONTINUE to call me a liar about everything I'm stating. Although where you think you have a reason or a right to do so is beyond me.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

Even the 16 year old that is commenting can see that there were many cruel and uncalled for remarks made, before I even joined in.

 

 

Okay, first off. "Even" the 16 year old? Just because I am young does NOT mean I am ignorant. You know, EVEN people like you should know that.

 

Secondly, do not twist my words. I never said that there were many "cruel and uncalled for" remarks. I said rude. And I surely never said uncalled for. You were, and are, being very immature, and even I am finding it hard to not throw out a few insults. But, no, I will keep my composure and not stoop to your level.

 

Why in the world you keep arguing and making excuses for yourself is beyond me, honestly. Stop trying to cause a fight.

[Sue R]

...I also assure that I have NO intention of getting into your breed, ever...

Thank goodness.

[Pecan Place]

Does COI = Coefficient of Inbreeding?

 

If so, up to 75%? Yikes! Scary...

 

That could very well explain my buying 13 poodles in the years I've been doing this and getting 4 of them that I could actually use to breed. I also then re-homed every single one of those junk poodles and sometimes even paying for shipping to their new homes in order to get them placed. This is after paying usually 1000 or more for a poodle, for the included breeding rights. Did you ever try to re-home a dog that scored a 10 on a Penn-hip test, or who arrives at your house as a two year old, proven breeder, only to find out this 'proven breeder' is blind in one eye and going blind in the other. Only one of the nine lousy breeders had the decency to replace their breeding stock they sold me also. I not only guarantee a good home to every dog I raise I have also taken care of these dogs I purchased and of whom the actual breeder would take no responsibility for.

So, do you also know the COI for your breed. As I'm sure you're aware every single purebred dog has some COI and yes, even my doodles, after the initial crossbreeding, although it is very low if done correctly. I used to have a chart to figure this when I bred my purebreds but I guess I should dust it off as I go down the Doodle path. Especially since poodles are involved.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

I also then re-homed every single one of those junk poodles and sometimes even paying for shipping to their new homes in order to get them placed.

Good god! Those "junk" poodles? Just because a dog is not worthy of your all-mighty breeding practices, it is junk? Damn...You, my friend, have just taken this to a whole new level.

[Jeri Jessee]

Those "junk" poodles? Just because a dog is not worthy of your all-mighty breeding practices, it is junk?

 

I found that offensive as well. Makes the dogs sound like a commodity.

 

Perhaps a bit more due diligence would be in order to avoid being "stuck" with dogs not suitable for breeding.

[rushdoggie]

I found that offensive as well. Makes the dogs sound like a commodity.

 

Perhaps a bit more due diligence would be in order to avoid being "stuck" with dogs not suitable for breeding.

 

Indeed. Pecan keeps digging her hole deeper.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

I found that offensive as well. Makes the dogs sound like a commodity.

 

Perhaps a bit more due diligence would be in order to avoid being "stuck" with dogs not suitable for breeding.

 

I feel that if only one out of, what was it, ten? dogs is worthy of her "breeding", then she obviously does not know how to find a reputable breeder.

[Tommy Coyote]

I really don't think border collies are a dog that is so difficult that only the faint of heart dare try one. I think you can take a poorly bred dog and turn it into a very difficult dog.

 

I've had border collie since 1980 and I think I have had 13 so far and they just live in the house with me. We do things but probably not any more than any other dog owner. My dogs are wonderful companions. They are so funny. Really, they are better companions than most people. A couple of my rescues had temperment problems (both the result of poor and abusive owners) but the rest have been easy going but ready to try just about anything.

 

But my dogs have all been from working lines and that may be the difference. A well bred working dog is just a great dog. I know I sure love mine.

[geonni banner]

"That could very well explain my buying 13 poodles in the years I've been doing this and getting 4 of them that I could actually use to breed. I also then re-homed every single one of those junk poodles and sometimes even paying for shipping to their new homes in order to get them placed."

 

Hmmmm. Junk Poodles.

 

"This is after paying usually 1000 or more for a poodle, for the included breeding rights. Did you ever try to re-home a dog that scored a 10 on a Penn-hip test, or who arrives at your house as a two year old, proven breeder, only to find out this 'proven breeder' is blind in one eye and going blind in the other."

 

Can’t say as I have. I usually want to see the dog I buy in person before doing so. The breeder too.

 

"Only one of the nine lousy breeders had the decency to replace their breeding stock they sold me also."

 

Why would one want a replacement dog from such a source?

 

"I not only guarantee a good home to every dog I raise I have also taken care of these dogs I purchased and of whom the actual breeder would take no responsibility for."

Taking care of a dog you purchased? Imagine... Did you fail to ask for a return policy/clause at the time of the dog’s purchase?

"So, do you also know the COI for your breed. As I'm sure you're aware every single purebred dog has some COI and yes, even my doodles, after the initial crossbreeding, although it is very low if done correctly. I used to have a chart to figure this when I bred my purebreds but I guess I should dust it off as I go down the Doodle path. Especially since poodles are involved."

According to Liz P. it is 6.25. But since I don’t breed, don’t have any plans to breed and am interested in a breed that has great diversity both in genotype and phenotype, it is merely an academic concept to me, and one I was only acquainted with as of today.

[brady's mom]

Just leave.

We get it, you're angry and want to "prove your point." The cruel insults didn't start until you showed up. You're not going to convince any of us to see the light of your plight and you're just stirring the pot.

 

Again, Pecan, check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

Just leave.

We get it, you're angry and want to "prove your point." The cruel insults didn't start until you showed up. You're not going to convince any of us to see the light of your plight and you're just stirring the pot.

 

Again, Pecan, check yourself before you wreck yourself.

 

I don't know what you're talking about. I want an aussiedoodle. Maybe I can convince her to make it an aussiedoodleschnoodle.

[OurBoys]

PP,

 

I find each of your posts very.......alarming, to say the least, on more than one level but I do have a question. This quote is directly from your website "I get puppies from my breeding dogs, while giving them much love and care, and then retire them at a very young age (by breeding standards) so they can continue their lives as family pets in a single dog environment." (Emphasis mine.) So my question is, if your dogs are well socialized, why would they need to be in sold to single dog environments?

[Gloria Atwater]

 

It has been stated that you are expecting 8 litters (if i remember correctly) in the next few months.

 

 

Actually,Puppytoes, she has 8 litters planned within 4 to 6 weeks time. The website says due between September 15th and the middle of October.

 

Yes, really.

 

~ Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

Now of the total of the 24 puppies that I had for Spring, 7 are bringing in no income whatsover, that now leaves 17 if you need some help here. Since this was half a years work/pay for me then the price of 6 puppies should be held back for 6 mos of quality dog food(now 11 remaining), another 6 puppies worth of income, give or take one or two, needs to be held back for my vet bills and power to keep my kennels comfortable and to run my grooming needs and another 6 puppies worth of income should be held back for maintenance, replacement breeding stock ..... and, of yeah, I'd like to add a new roof to the kennel and more insulation to keep my dogs comfortable. I had intended to continue, but darn it, I'm out of puppies and I still have more bills.

 

Wow. So you're really in this to make money. You not only want to breed dogs, you want to breed enough dogs to make your entire operation - and attendant structure remodeling - self-sustaining.

 

You know, the people I know who breed dogs do NOT make a living at it. In fact, I don't know if they often break even. They do it for betterment of their breed, not to make a buck. But by your own words, you want your dogs to pay for their own breeding program AND their own upkeep.

 

Dang.

 

 

I'd like to also say that I breed dogs. I do not apologize for breeding top quality dogs from tested breeding stock.

 

Are these the same dogs you get shipped to you, only to find it's blind in one eye, or whatever that was? Most people I know prefer to go meet the dog they're buying, or at the very least peruse a lot of photos and videos of it.

 

 

~ G

[Gloria Atwater]

So, how can you bleeding hearts think that because my dogs work for approx 1 to 3 years of their 16 to 20 year lifespan that they should be the object of sympathy. Save it for starving children. So, they do not die on the same location or with the same family they were born to, does anybody? Do we not raise our children and then send them out into the world to carry on with a new family. What if this same dog was in the wild and its' mate got killed several times in its' lifetime, should you then regale and accuse nature of abuse. So what if a dog is re-homed to a new family...my grandbabies are military brats and they are ripped from their home and friends at least every two years. How is it that you think this is cause for sympathy for a dog to find it a new home after living here and being much loved when it happens every day to military children. Should be enforce a sterility clause to all the millions and millions of military families for allowing their children to be moved from where they are comfortable and re-homed. Many times without the presence or help of a spouse. Get real!!!

 

Uh ... ma'am? Most people don't breed their children or expect them to pay for their own upkeep and lodgings. And equating your dogs to military children or to wild dogs doesn't even make sense. Furthermore, comparing enforced sterilization of military kids to spay/neutering your retired breeding stock is ... nuts. Human beings have a choice in who they breed or even if they breed. Dogs in a breeding kennel do not.

 

(Seriously? 16 to 20 years for an average canine lifespan?)

 

 

I think that maybe you, and others that have posted here, should take this opportunity to put on your 'big girl panties' and look at what is really important in the world. You, and society in general sometimes, have a warped understanding of what is important in the world. Most people can see hundreds or thousands of dead or dying children, due to poverty or disasters, and not blink an eye but let a commercial come on with an abused dog or kitten in the photo and there is not a dry eye in the place.

........ I do love ALL my dogs and they get toys, treats, love and the expected pats and baby talk and belly rubs but I do not think they are people and I do not think they DESERVE to live their whole lives doing absolutely nothing as spoiled pampered pets. I don't know one human on earth that has the options most of you here think that dogs are entitled to and that if they don't get is tantamount to abuse. Grow up and grow some real prospective, and leave people alone if you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

 

Well, there you have it. You're a puppy mill and what matters most is what the dogs can do for you.

 

Nice outing yourself, there.

 

~ Gloria

[juliepoudrier]

I'm not going to get into how PP cares for her breeding stock (her attitude toward dogs seems rather icky; junk?), and she's already clearly given plenty of examples of her attitude toward dogs, breeding, and people who disagree with her. I don't care if she's making a living or not. The fact is, though, that no matter how the accounting is done (and seriously, who would spend all the time and effort to do that sort of breeding if they were LOSING money doing so?), there's a lot of dogs being produced. Individual lives.

 

If a breeder is producing, say, 50 puppies a year, then over 10 years, that's 500 puppies. Are all those pups spayed and neutered? Are some used for breeding by the folks they're sold to? You don't need to be a PhD mathemetician to figure out that the numbers of dogs being put on the ground by just this one breeder--let alone anyone who follows the breeder's example using one of the breeder's products, um puppies--is large. And she's just one person.

 

It's truly mind boggling. But it's okay, because she loves her dogs, finds good homes for the retirees, and uses only tested breeding stock. Oh yeah, and the dogs know their names. I imagine a good number of dogs killed in shelters every day, week, year, also knew their names. Individual deaths, piling on one another into the thousands and tens of thousands....

 

But it's okay, because the breeder says she loves her dogs and isn't making a living at it anyway.

 

Oh, and I do have an idea what I'm talking about. Anyone with an Internet connection can use Google to find out statistics on pet overpopulation and the numbers of dogs (and cats) that die each year, unwanted. And I am a grown up--part of being one means being able to recognize when one's own actions are contributing to a problem. But I guess that idea is lost on some....

 

J.