Aussiedoodle

[DeltaBluez Tess]

OK Pecan

 

You said no one ever bother to write and ask you any questions....fair enough. So I will.

 

I think by clarifying the below, you will pretty much answer the questions we all have but didn't write down.

 

1. Where do you see in my original post that I was complaining that my friends got a pup from you and not me? I certainly did not write that or imply that? Please point it out to me

2. How many litters do you breed a year?

3. How many puppies do your dogs have a year?

4. Do you do OFA hip testing?

5. Do you CERF (eye) test the adults and pups?

6. What other types of health testing do you do for the adults and pups?

7. How do you evaluate/temperament test the pups?

8. How do you match the pups to the owners?

9. What type of herding tests do you for the Mini Aussies?

10. Why do you bred the bitches at 12 months old?

11. What criteria do you use for each breeding?

12. What is the COI for the adults and pups in the litters?

13. Why are the colored pups priced higher?

14. When you bred a female, how much time do you give her off before the next litter?

15. How many dogs/pups do you have?

16. Where are they housed at night?

17. How many pups have you bred over the years and do you keep track of them?

18. Are you pups sold on a Spay/Neuter contract?

19. What about the pups that do not have the poodle hair but the Aussie hair (shedding)…what do you do with them?

20. How long have you been doing as a business (self supporting)?

 

 

"Delta"

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

If a breeder is producing, say, 50 puppies a year, then over 10 years, that's 500 puppies.

 

I'm not sure if you were indicating PP directly, or if you were saying in general. But PP said that the 8 planned breedings for this fall were -half- her stock.

So I'd round that number up to maybe 70 dogs a year. Or more, depending on how many pregnancies take and how many puppies each bitch has.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

OK Pecan

 

You said no one ever bother to write and ask you any questions....fair enough. So I will.

 

I think by clarifying the below, you will pretty much answer the questions we all have but didn't write down...

 

"Delta"

 

If I may add three questions?

 

21. If a situation arose where a previous buyer could no longer keep their pup, what would you do?

22. How do you find time to learn each puppies individual personality?

23. How do you assure that each pup is properly socialized?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

In case anyone was wondering, I love Standard Poodles. I have dealings with several over the years and loved them. That's another breed of dog that I would own in a heart beat.

 

Jazz was one that was one of my favorite. She was a retired showdog that was rehome to be a famiy dog. One of the smartest dogs that I have ever know, the kindness and sweet. when she died, she had a huge fan club that mourned her. I still miss her to this day.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Hey Delta,

I just wanted to try to educate you on dog physiology since it is apparent you aren't too knowledgable on this subject. DOGS ONLY COME IN SEASON, ON AN AVERAGE, OF EVERY SIX MONTHS, not monthly. These litters are my fall litters and half a years progeny.

Let me also enlighten you to the fact that not every dog that is bred has puppies...wow...ever consider that!#$%

For my other half of this year, this last Spring, I bred 7 females and only five of them had litters, for whatever reason that I don't intend to get into here. Of the five that did have litters, two had to have C-sections at the cost of two puppies for the surgeries. (by your calculations) One female only had 2 pups, two others had 4 each and the other 2 had 7 puppies each. After I kept back my breeding stock, which is the main reason I breed the females, and not to retire in a year or two as you would have people to believe, that was another five puppies that there was no income from. Hope you are able to follow this, I can slow down if necessary. Now of the total of the 24 puppies that I had for Spring, 7 are bringing in no income whatsover, that now leaves 17 if you need some help here. Since this was half a years work/pay for me then the price of 6 puppies should be held back for 6 mos of quality dog food(now 11 remaining), another 6 puppies worth of income, give or take one or two, needs to be held back for my vet bills and power to keep my kennels comfortable and to run my grooming needs and another 6 puppies worth of income should be held back for maintenance, replacement breeding stock (to retain hybrid vigor I need to have different lines constantly and I really can't call to the corner and order a new Aussidoodle as not many breeders are doing the multigens, of course you probably already knew that...you are an expert on this subject apparently) and, of yeah, I'd like to add a new roof to the kennel and more insulation to keep my dogs comfortable. I had intended to continue, but darn it, I'm out of puppies and I still have more bills. Wow, I think maybe college would have been in order because, the way I do it anyway, this is not a huge money making operation. If you want to quit your job maybe you should buy more than two dogs, or you can totally neglect their care and rake in the dough till they drop dead. I personally could not sleep nites if I did this, but you do what you feel is right.

Let me explain why I only have a couple of times a year to do what I want to do in my program...As I said, female dogs only generally come in season twice a year and they all, inconsiderately from a planning point of view, all do it at once when the Alpha female says it's time to do so. Although it would be very nice to have litters equally spaced out in the year to not have the feast or famine atmosphere that animal husbandry dictates, this is not the way the real world is.

I'd like to also say that I breed dogs. I do not apologize for breeding top quality dogs from tested breeding stock. I love my dogs and my buyers love their dogs and this is really what is important here. I also breed my dogs between two to four times in a lifetime and then they are retired to loving pet homes...100% placement rate so far, and people on a waiting list for older trained dogs. Let me put this into prospective for you since you seem to be more about spouting then thinking...I raise a dog, or buy a breeding dog from an outside kennel. This dog is raised here with top quality food, medical care, environmental control, acres to run on and play till they reach a breeding age of 12 to 24 months and then they are bred, sometimes only once and never more than a total of 4 lifetime litters, and then retired. I would love to be one of my dogs. Most people work 50% to 75% of their lives and then may or may not have the funds or time to enjoy their lives. (Both my parents worked all their lives and then were killed before they got to enjoy one minute of retirement) So, how can you bleeding hearts think that because my dogs work for approx 1 to 3 years of their 16 to 20 year lifespan that they should be the object of sympathy. Save it for starving children. So, they do not die on the same location or with the same family they were born to, does anybody? Do we not raise our children and then send them out into the world to carry on with a new family. What if this same dog was in the wild and its' mate got killed several times in its' lifetime, should you then regale and accuse nature of abuse. So what if a dog is re-homed to a new family...my grandbabies are military brats and they are ripped from their home and friends at least every two years. How is it that you think this is cause for sympathy for a dog to find it a new home after living here and being much loved when it happens every day to military children. Should be enforce a sterility clause to all the millions and millions of military families for allowing their children to be moved from where they are comfortable and re-homed. Many times without the presence or help of a spouse. Get real!!!

I think that maybe you, and others that have posted here, should take this opportunity to put on your 'big girl panties' and look at what is really important in the world. You, and society in general sometimes, have a warped understanding of what is important in the world. Most people can see hundreds or thousands of dead or dying children, due to poverty or disasters, and not blink an eye but let a commercial come on with an abused dog or kitten in the photo and there is not a dry eye in the place.

I love my dogs to death and yes, they all not only have names, they all respond to their names. I have four dogs lying at my feet as I type and tomorrow there will probably four or five dogs at my feet again. Maybe the same four and maybe four others that get to be my 'on again-off again' house dogs. Do I apologize for this either...NO. Dogs are animals...not people... and the most natural thing in the world for them is to live their life in a pack. I am only part of their pack, and if they are not with me then they are running and playing in the huge play yards with other members of their pack. Or swimming in their swimming pools, or playing with the many, many toys they have available. (I just spent 179 dollars on new toys at PetsMart today, as I do about twice a month). I do love ALL my dogs and they get toys, treats, love and the expected pats and baby talk and belly rubs but I do not think they are people and I do not think they DESERVE to live their whole lives doing absolutely nothing as spoiled pampered pets. I don't know one human on earth that has the options most of you here think that dogs are entitled to and that if they don't get is tantamount to abuse. Grow up and grow some real prospective, and leave people alone if you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

 

 

I appreciate you took the time and effort to explain the litter question for the spring.

 

"Delta...a military child who moved over ten times by the time she was 9 years old"

[Mark Billadeau]

Oh contrare, Mr Mark. As you seem to know more than the average person here about genetics then you should also know that you get the benefits of hybrid vigor, to lessening degrees, for the first FOUR generations of crossbreds. This is also assuming that you do as I do and do not linebreed any of your crossbreeds. Thus the need for more litters/outcrosses, or access to different lines from other breeders (sigh, not an option,although I have tried), to have different lines to breed together.

A multigen can be either a F1 X F1(too much chance of throwbacks for me), an F1 X F1b = F2b (my preferred, by necessity at this point in my program) which is about 60% Aussie, or, an F1 X F2b which is what I am starting in the Spring and comes very close to the half and half mark of lineage, and then just doodle to doodle thereafter with an occasional cross back to the poodle if necessary for matters of coat. Recommended no more than every 3rd generation. So, multigen is somewhat of a generic term that really doesn't tell you what generation you are getting or what percentage of each factor is possible.

There is one small probem with your logic; the F1 crosses can now be carriers (but not affected) of the genetic mutations from both of your source breeds. Everytime you re-access those source gene pools you run the risk of crossing two carriers of the same genetic mutation (defect or disease). This means the benifits from breeding two unrelated gene pools (i.e. hybrid vigor) are gone when breeding F1 crosses because the F1s are automatically related to both gene pools. Just because you cannot see the genetic mutation (affected) does not mean you are not breeding it (carrier).

 

The other issue you're ignoring is that some genetic mutations were present in dogs prior to the development of the breeds which means that there is no hybrid vigor when it comes to these mutations.

 

Of the 10 or so genetic diseases common to both of your source breeds; how many are currently thought to have specific mutations for the breed as opposed to a common mutation in both breeds?

Canine Inheritied Disorders

Inherited Diseases in Dogs

 

Online Mendelian Inheritance in Animals is a great resource and it lists 573 inheritied diseases in dogs.

[PSmitty]

<snip>If a breeder is producing, say, 50 puppies a year, then over 10 years, that's 500 puppies. Are all those pups spayed and neutered? Are some used for breeding by the folks they're sold to? You don't need to be a PhD mathemetician to figure out that the numbers of dogs being put on the ground by just this one breeder--let alone anyone who follows the breeder's example using one of the breeder's products, um puppies--is large. And she's just one person.

 

It's truly mind boggling. But it's okay, because she loves her dogs, finds good homes for the retirees, and uses only tested breeding stock. Oh yeah, and the dogs know their names. I imagine a good number of dogs killed in shelters every day, week, year, also knew their names. Individual deaths, piling on one another into the thousands and tens of thousands....

 

<snip>

 

Oh, and I do have an idea what I'm talking about. Anyone with an Internet connection can use Google to find out statistics on pet overpopulation and the numbers of dogs (and cats) that die each year, unwanted. <snip>

 

Thank you for this, Julie.

[JaderBug]

Just wanted to put in my two cents worth...

 

First and foremost, Pecan Place's use of the term "junk poodles" is alarming and disheartening to me as well as anyone else reading this. There are no junk dogs, only junk people.

 

I am also shocked that someone who claims to have been as heavily involved in the AKC show ring (20+ years if I remember correctly?) thinks this type of volume breeding is acceptable- I would've thought she would be shunned by the conformation people. Of course, maybe she's burned a lot of bridges along the way. Personally, none of the conformation ring people/breeders I know would EVER find this type of breeding acceptable. Although I realize it takes all sorts in this world...

[Pecan Place]

If I may add three questions?

 

21. If a situation arose where a previous buyer could no longer keep their pup, what would you do?

22. How do you find time to learn each puppies individual personality?

23. How do you assure that each pup is properly socialized?

 

 

You may add all the questions that you like but I am tired of engaging any of you. Your(collective term) past posts, before you bothered to ask me anything have most been often cruel and based on only assumptions. I prayed on this and have peace with it in myself and I am just very sorry, and embarrassed, that I ever let you goad me and make me stoop down to your levels. I just have a habit of defending things/people that I love. I KNOW that my dogs are loved and cared for and that anybody, anytime, could walk onto my place and view well-groomed, well adjusted, happy dogs that are well loved and cared for.

If any of you would like to find your next target of abuse then I have taken about 15 minutes of my time this morning and on the very first page on my search I found the following texts. All are copied directly off the websites, except where I have noted.

So, 'God Love You All' and now you may police/defend/trash/embrace your own Border Collie breeders as you see fit.

Below is 15 minutes search result for Border Collies on Google and I'm sure I could find hundreds more if I cared to continue this nonsense...

________________________________________________________________________________________

Welcome to Midnight Border Collies.

Our puppies sell for $700 each

Carolann Mickels, owner

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

www.reddawnborders.com

Top champion bred puppies

Herding, Agility, OFA/CERF

AKC limited registration $950.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

 

A $300 deposit is generally required Hob Nob Border Collies Janice DeMello

email: jandemello@earthlink.net

 

(my note,by Pecan Place:Pups here without registration are 1500 and with registration are 3000,added after post was quoted. I had to add the prices manually as she has it where you can't cut and paste her prices, I can understand why...BOINGG!!!)

 

Denim & Prada puppies arrived on 11/18/10

 

 

Cachet & Steeple puppies arrived on 12/3/10

 

 

Sequel & Juice puppies arrived on 12/7/10

 

 

Singe x Steeple puppies born 6/20/11

 

 

Shale x Bru puppies born 7/8/11

 

 

Trace x Klepto puppies born 7/13/11

 

 

Posh x Bezel puppies born 7/21/11

Please check my Planned Litters page for the next exciting batch of Hob Nob puppies!

(wow, 7 litters listed here in less than a year and even more on the way at these prices, added by PP)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Border Collies from Lock-Eye Border Collies

 

$1,000 total for a pup that will be spayed or neutered at 1 year old or $1,200 total for a pup with breeding potential

 

Puppy picking starts at 7 weeks for each litter. Picking for the Brooke litter is Thursday, Sept 8th,'11

 

(I guess you all best be picking them now before this batch is gone...added by PP)

 

The Charm & Peck Litter was born on Sunday, August 14th, 2011

 

River sadly had a miscarriage Friday night. We will retire her. Our retired dogs are either placed in pet

homes or kept here on our farm.

(wow, Border Collie people do this too!!! I guess you all don't walk on water. Added by PP)

Dixie had 3 black and white pups on Sunday, July 10th

 

Moxie may be having a false pregnancy. We will know for sure around Sept 8th, 2011(Her due date)

 

Spice has been bred to Reece! Confirmed pregnant! Due between Sept 26th-Oct 1st.

 

Mirra has been bred to Fuse and is confirmed pregnant! Litter due between Oct 3rd-8th, 2011

 

Idol has been breed to Reece and is due on Oct 25th, 2011

 

Brooke and Cinch litter was born on July 21st, 2011

8 pups!

(8 litters in three months..she should be tarred and feathered...added by PP)

[Alchemist]

Wow. As soon as people lay out substantive questions, PP sees the light and decides to bow out of the conversation.

 

Folk, I don't think she's going to learn from this, as has already been pointed out by others. But, to potential wanna-be-puppy-buyers following this thread, let me just comment on the four breeders she's mentioned. No surprise, nary a one here that BC Boards members would recommend, as none of them appears to be breeding for the right reasons. (Claims of "herding ability" aside, is there any EVIDENCE of any achievements in Open or even Novice trials among their breeding stock?).

 

The last two, in particular, would probably figure prominently in any poll conducted among BC Board members of "Ten Worst Border Collie Breeders".

 

Not exactly the sort of company I'd want to keep were I citing examples of "they do it too, so it's OK for me to do so".

 

(ETA: I hope any people who peruse some of these websites will know enough not to mistake AKC "herding championships" for the "real deal" - competitive at USBCHA "Open" trials).

 

(ETA some more: I think maybe I was too harsh on these breeders when I speculated that they'd figure prominently on "Ten Worst Border Collie Breeder" lists. That designation, on reflection, should be reserved for individuals who breed dogs with nasty temperaments and numerous health issues; the more of them they breed, and the less responsive they are when contacted about the results, the higher they should figure on such a list, and properly so. I honestly don't know whether this is the case with any of the breeders listed. But I have visited their websites, and it's abundantly clear that two, at least, are large-volume breeders widely viewed by members of these Boards as "puppy millers". It's also clear that nary a one of these is breeding for what Board members would view as "the right reason": working ability. I stand by my contention that none of these breeders is the sort of company I would want to keep, and that you'd be hard-pressed to find a BC Board member who would recommend any of them. In choosing them as examples, PP eloquently proved the point that several here have been trying to make.)

[KrisK]

It seems quite obvious that PP did not read "READ THIS FIRST" ...if she had, she would know that the people on this Board support breeding for working ability only...so the examples she used above would not be 'breeders' supported by members of this Board....

 

We know she won't change her attitude, but I'm hoping this rather lengthy thread will help potential puppy purchasers to think twice before supporting a puppy mill operator.

[Mary&Sully]

 

A $300 deposit is generally required Hob Nob Border Collies Janice DeMello

email: jandemello@earthlink.net

 

 

Honey, absolutely no one here would condone these breeders that you have listed. If you want examples of this just search some of their names in our search function. These facilities have received equal, if not more, speculation and content from members on these boards. If you think we have been hard on you because your breeding aussie crosses, please imagine how irresponsible border collie breeding goes over on here. The boards have a very strict opinion when it comes to breeding dogs, and attempts to educate the public and fellow board members as to which breeders are 'responsible' (please note that most AKC breeders, companion home breeders, and sports breeders will NOT fit this criteria no matter how much they love their dogs).

You will not convince the people on these boards that you are doing a good thing, or get them to accept you and your beliefs because we wholeheartedly believe these practices are the problem in the canine community.

I appreciate that you love your dogs, we may disagree on the way you express this, but I do appreciate this. The message to take away from this is that there are many people who believe in these strict breeding practices. We see the thousands of dogs in shelters and being put to sleep and can not help but be upset by a breeder who produces a good number of pups a year. Contemplate this, look at it from our shoes. That is what we are asking. We will probably not change your mind, but please do try and understand our side.

[SecretBC]

PP -- Did you ever consider that the reason you have such an issue with obtaining "junk poodles" for your breeding program is because no breeder with QUALITY poodles would EVER in a MILLION YEARS sell you a dog to use in a doodle program. EVER.

 

That is only one of the reasons that doodles are so flipping stupid and riddled with temperament issues. Doodle breeders are essentially using the leftover unwanted crap of the dog world because no breeder of good, quality dogs will sell you anything.

 

Imagine that.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>>>>. I KNOW that my dogs are loved and cared for and that anybody, anytime, could walk onto my place and view well-groomed, well adjusted, happy dogs that are well loved and cared for.

<<<

 

 

I never said anything that you didn't love

your dogs. Nor did I say anything about your husband, grandchildren or religion. The questions I had were related to your breeding practices. Your dogs do look well taken care off but we were addressing the multiple litters and so forth.

 

So it sounds like you are not going to answer the questions we are concerned about....why? Now, it seems like you really have something to hide. Are you a puppy miller or a ethical breeder? I guess we will never know since we don't have any data but go based what is on your website which doesn't look good.

 

So maybe 15 litters this years (7 from the spring and maybe 8 from the fall? ) ......that doesn't sound very good. Let's just say if this <insert animal> was a rare breed and you are breeding to repopulate the species, then the 15 litters a year would make sense. if the <Insert animal> is just a common or regular species, then it sounds like a puppy mill.

 

Are you afraid of the answers to the questions?

 

 

As for the Border Collies breeders you pointed out...yes, they are our "volume breeders"....and well known for that.

 

By directing us to the other Border Collie breeders, you are trying to deflect us and avoid the light. Too bad as you could have maybe enlightened all all of us.

 

Oh, I pray to God each night and ask him to help me clean up other people's messes in poor breeding since I do Border Collie Rescue.

 

"delta"

[Gloria Atwater]

Oh, good. Now can this conversation die?

 

Sheez.

 

Off to have a great weekend trialing my dog and watching men in kilts. Y'all take care out there, and the very best of luck to the folks trialing at Soldier Hollow, Meeker and the Finals! (And wherever else you may be.)

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

"Delta," your new name makes me think of rockin' chairs, sycamore trees and mint juleps.

 

~ Gloria

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I was thinking more of crawfish, Abita beer and hunting a few gators ;-)

 

Delta~

[AW1688]

mmmm Abita

[Lewis Moon]

There is one small probem with your logic; the F1 crosses can now be carriers (but not affected) of the genetic mutations from both of your source breeds. Everytime you re-access those source gene pools you run the risk of crossing two carriers of the same genetic mutation (defect or disease). This means the benifits from breeding two unrelated gene pools (i.e. hybrid vigor) are gone when breeding F1 crosses because the F1s are automatically related to both gene pools. Just because you cannot see the genetic mutation (affected) does not mean you are not breeding it (carrier).

 

The other issue you're ignoring is that some genetic mutations were present in dogs prior to the development of the breeds which means that there is no hybrid vigor when it comes to these mutations.

 

Of the 10 or so genetic diseases common to both of your source breeds; how many are currently thought to have specific mutations for the breed as opposed to a common mutation in both breeds?

Canine Inheritied Disorders

Inherited Diseases in Dogs

 

Online Mendelian Inheritance in Animals is a great resource and it lists 573 inheritied diseases in dogs.

 

This one has strong kung fu.

 

(Nice links. thanks.)

[vaporflowers]

There are puppy-milling, overpriced, volume breeders in every breed that has some popularity. I like pit bulls, and about 2 seconds of google searching would turn up some of the worst breeders on the face of the planet.

 

Also, we have a large-ish volume of litters at the guide dog school I work at. We also have a HUGE staff (90+), massive numbers of volunteers, and an extensive socialization program in place. The amount of time it would take just our kennel staff to put each puppy not only through "Early Neurological Stimulation", as well as the individual socialization and temperament tests, which include introductions to leashes/collars, positive crate association, beginning potty training, light obedience, noise exposure, varied surface exposure, body handling, etc etc, is mind boggling. We couldn't do it without the dedicated volunteers, who have to go through special training for certain aspects of the program. The time and amount of people needed to tend to those puppies is just... huge.

 

I could see a breeder doing that with one litter at a time, maybe two. I would want nothing less if I'm paying $900+ for a puppy. We may be doing it to create future guide dogs, but I've known plenty of breeders who go through that whole process with their non-service-dog puppies.

 

One breeder I visited had a nice litter of field-bred Goldens. Both of their parents had OFA hips and elbows, cardiologist heart clearances, CERF annually and PRA cleared. I observed the puppies for a while before starting any temperament testing. There was a CD playing designed specifically for socializing litters of puppies to various noises. While I stood there, I heard city traffic, sheep and cows, crowds of people, frogs croaking, thunder, etc. The puppies had a large "litter box" filled with shavings. They were in a room with linoleum floor... but there were also several dog beds, grates, shiny tiles, and towels on the floor. There were large PVC "tunnels", several open crates, and of course toys. While I watched, a couple of puppies used the "litter box". When we took the puppies outside, most of them peed and they ALL pooped. Housebreaking was well under way. They all had stable temperaments; most were pretty laid back and relaxed... some were more active and intense. I temperament tested the pups I was interested in by myself. When I was finished, I compared notes with the breeder and her assessments and opinions on the puppies absolutely matched mine.

 

Now THAT is the level of dedication I expect from a good breeder. Do you think she could do it if she had 4+ litters on the ground at the same time? What if she had 8? No, no she couldn't.

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

You may add all the questions that you like but I am tired of engaging any of you.

 

Well would ya look at that? Can't answer the questions without seeming like a puppymiller, so you back out.

 

"I am tired of engaging any of you."

I wish you could have said that about three pages ago.

[jdarling]

The "breeder" will never get it. This we know. She has figured out how to make a lot of cash on her puppies, in fact has it down to a science, and there's going to be no changing that. She would be nowhere if it wasn't for all of the idiots that buy mutts for that kind of money and believe the hype. Moron after moron shows up at her door ... so what's the poor woman to do but sell them puppies. And she'd better breed more puppies, because there sure is an endless supply of morons.

 

In all honesty, what is the point of asking all of those questions? Are there any answers that she can give that would make any of us say, "Oh she's right! She IS a responsible breeder after all! Well, lady, what are you doing sitting on that silly computer? You get back to your puppy business and get pumping out more of those excellent little specimen!"

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

In all honesty, what is the point of asking all of those questions? Are there any answers that she can give that would make any of us say, "Oh she's right! She IS a responsible breeder after all! Well, lady, what are you doing sitting on that silly computer? You get back to your puppy business and get pumping out more of those excellent little specimen!"

 

True that. At least she had to face the fact that there are at least SOME flaws in her breeding plan, judging by the fact that she refused to answer the questions.

[Little Bo Boop]

As Julie P said, "Icky", my thoughts exactly, and I would add smarmy. "Breeding "stock", and "junk", is how she refers to her "beloved" pets ;-( Makes me sick to my stomach reading all this stuff. We (people on this board) look at our dogs, and we see family, we see love, we see devotion, we see partners; this woman sees $$$$$$$ signs, and how she can make money off the back (or uterus) of some poor dog. I truly don't know how people like this sleep at night ;-( The only thing I'm sure of is that you can't reason with people like her, they don't "get it" and nothing you say or do is going to change them...blech, just disgusting ;-(

[Lewis Moon]

This'll chap ya.....

 

Bordoodle