Susan Garrett's border collies

[Pippin's person]

I don't think they care...

 

This is just going to go around in circles. You can't complain about sport breeders if the working breeders aren't going to provide the dogs that sport people want/need.

 

If they don't care, then that's all the more reason that the issue of dual registration in the ABCA matters.

 

And to be clear, I'm not complaining about sport breeders; simply noting that the dog they are producing is not the same kind of dog as the type being produced by working breeders; that that difference matters and that it will become more and more apparent over time how much it matters until such time that it is clear they are fundamentally different breeds, and at that point, I suspect, we will see the end of dual registration with the ABCA.

 

Whether the name changes or not, it is already happening and will continue to happen unless the breeding practices on one side or the other change for some reason. At some level, the name itself is the least important aspect (except for the HUGE symbolic weight it carries). It's the cultural practices and their fundamental differences that make the "quandary" impossible to resolve and in some ways (to me) just about heartbreaking.

[bcnewe2]

Plain and simple, most sport people don't know any better!

 

There you go, in a nut shell. they don't know any better.

Neither did I till I got my first bc, heck several rescues and a few purchased dogs later did I only start to learn what these dogs were about, then I went out and found what I needed. But I did learn, slowly cause I wasn't into any sports with my dogs so I was "self taught" on the quality of border collies. Wasn't to long though and I found you had to get a dog from "good" stock if you wanted it to do much of anything at a top level.

But when you consider the sport people and what was stated here that they spend thousands on their dogs, (like how do you figure that?) but whatever, if you spend that much, I think you'd be doing your homework, no matter where you had to go to do it. Not take what the guy running next to you tells you, but real homework.

Again, I could only get so many dogs before I started to realize I had to make informed educated choices for me, and anyone else's word wasn't goin to get me what I wanted.

 

Karissa

not trying to pick on you but how long have you been into Border Collies? ISTM like you've got just enough information to make you feel like you know something. There is a dangerous place (been there myself for quite some time) where you have enough knowledge to think you know more than you do.

I could be totally wrong about you but you sure come off as having it all figured out, not open to learning more if it doesn't fit what you think you know....JMHO

 

Oh and I can think of at least 50+ open level handlers that might have a litter or 2 a year that really don't care who buys their dogs. Money is the key. Not bashing them but saying they are breeding dogs for themselves, from dogs they like or want to have one like & there are usually extras, I just can't see them saying..."hmmm you gonna do sports with that pup? nope give me my pup back and here's your 400 or what ever dollars back, I don't want my dogs doing sports"...Nope never heard that one.

Again things change if you're talking about breeding rights or s/n contracts but really there are only a handful of open handlers that even have something like that in a contract that I know of and I've lived in AR, MO and CO so these dogs and people are samples from a wide area. Heck, I've bought maybe 6 dogs give or take and never once have I signed any contract...not once. And at least 3/4 of those pups were from well known open handlers/breeders.

[jdarling]

Good points, Kristen. I think most people don't know the difference, and therefore, never try contacting working dog breeders. Or they have already come to the assumption that working dog breeders won't sell to them so they don't bother trying. And then blame it on the working dog breeders.

[SecretBC]

I do not profess to be a Border Collie expert and I have fully admitted that I know nothing about herding. I'm an agility person. My experience with BC is, by and large, completely through agility. So it would stand to reason that this is where my viewpoint that there is nothing wrong with sport breeders stems from... I'm telling you from personal experience that agility people don't KNOW about working-bred dogs, or at least where to find them. I didn't give a rip about it until I found this board, which I found through a google search looking for "BC Bulletin Boards" after I got my girl from rescue. The main reason I went through rescue is because I didn't want to pay $2000 for a dog from the sport breeders that I knew about, and I was having one hell of a time finding a dog from anyone else.

 

Most agility people do not have connections with the working world and have no idea where to even start.

[jdarling]

Out of sheer curiosity, I just googled "working border collies." It is laughable to see who is trying to pass their dogs off as "working" dogs. Wow.

 

 

 

 

[Shetlander]

But when you consider the sport people and what was stated here that they spend thousands on their dogs, (like how do you figure that?) but whatever, if you spend that much, I think you'd be doing your homework, no matter where you had to go to do it. Not take what the guy running next to you tells you, but real homework.

 

That is where the vicious cycle starts, though. You are assuming that the sports breeders aren't giving people what they want. I think they are, for the most part. At least that is what I see among my friends and acquaintances with sports bred Border Collies. And if people only see sports bred dogs doing well and they love the sports bred dogs they currently own, what is going to make them step out of their comfort zone and pursue a puppy from a working breeder? They don't hold the views of these boards or see the world the same way.

 

And yes, many sports people easily spend thousands on their dogs.

[Root Beer]

But when you consider the sport people and what was stated here that they spend thousands on their dogs, (like how do you figure that?)

 

I don't think I was the one who said thousands, but yes - over the lifetime of a dog involved with sports, you easily spend thousands. That is, if you want to be halfway decent. Even if you only consider Agility. And that is not taking into account the expenses that everyone has for their dogs like food, vet care, etc. I mean on training for and participation in the sport.

 

Classes can easily run $70 - $150 for a 5 - 8 week session. Normally, those who are competing take classes year round with no more than a break of a month each year. And most continue in some sort of structured class throughout the dog's career.

 

Workshops/Seminars - most people who compete attend at least 3 - 6 of these over the lifetime of the dog. These can range from $50 - $200 per day, and many run two days.

 

You have to train outside of class if you are going to be any good, so add in either rental of a space where there is Agility equipment and/or purchase of equipment or materials to make equipment. That can range in price, but think hundreds when all is said and done.

 

Then there are trials. The entry fees vary from organization to organization. A typical CPE run is $12.00 in my area and people who are really serious run 8 - 10 runs in a weekend.

 

You have to register your dog with every organization that you run in. Usually that's $25.00, but it's only a one time fee per dog.

 

You can't trial without stuff because dogs don't typically just sit around in chairs like people do (although I've seen it). Crates, sunshades, battery operated fans, etc. etc. etc. - you need stuff to keep the dog cool in the heat if you are running outdoors.

 

A lot of us end up getting new vehicles to house our dogs in comfortably during trials. Yes, I have a "dog car". It's modest, but I picked it out so I could tote my dogs around to competitions. Now thousands have become over ten thousand, although we needed a car anyway, so it's not like I just got it for competition.

 

I can't think of anyone who is even remotely serious about Agility who has not purchased books, DVD's, maybe a yearly subscription to Clean Run, or taken some private lessons. Easily $200 - $500 over the life of the dog there. More for some.

 

I'm not even that serious about Agility and, even if you don't include the vehicle, I have easily spent thousands on Agility with one dog. I trial about 10 - 15 times a year. Many of my friends trial weekly, and they run in AKC which, I believe, has more expensive entries, although they don't have the option of 10 runs in a weekend, so it might come out about the same.

 

To be honest, I would never actually sit down and add up what I have spent on training for, equipment for, and participation in dog sports. For three dogs and another getting ready!! But thousands - per dog. Yes.

[Laurae]

I believe the astonishment at spending thousands on a dog is directed at the initial puppy price, not the subsequent training, trialing, and traveling costs (which is common to sports and sheepdog trialing).

[bcnewe2]

well of course I meant initial price on a pup, not a life time of training...(thanks Laura)

 

Most agility people do not have connections with the working world and have no idea where to even start.

 

 

Ok then Since that is your world, I would love to think you and other agility/sport people who frequent these boards and glean all kinds of information from all kinds of people could make it part of your goals to inform other sport people that the dogs they've fallen inlove with are at risk of becoming something else unless they keep the breed as it was when they found them.

 

I don't hear any "sport" people speaking up for sport breeding being better than breeding for stockwork, maybe it's the tone of these boards but I think the maj. including sport people here believe that statement. Guess I could be wrong...never even thought it differently.

 

And I do remember "looking" for a border collie way back and not being able to find one. So we need to spread the word...working breeders are out there and we'll help point them out if possible.

Next issue might be...

Jodi's statement of what she found when she googled working bordercollies. Which I"m sure if you sport people googled "sport people" would be saying the same thing. That should be an issue we should address, finding dogs unless rescues is not the place for using the internet as our/their only directions.

[Journey]

You know the threads lately are simply circles. There is a way to stop the dual registration w/o a ban. All ABCA has to do is stop issuing 4 generations pedigrees! Shoot, even ACK doesn't issue them. A simple piece of paper with the sire and dam listed is all that's needed (and ACK won't accept this). Those breeding know and if you don't and don't do your research......Why not have ABCA do a stud book on a yearly basis. With the way computers are in this day and age and online library could be done as well. It's funny though really, in the Borderline thread no one mentioned anything about the mag other than the first editorial. What about the dogs listed in there and where they came from or "who" their sire/dam is. I really was surprised to see the L & M dog listed on the site shysheperdess posted, how did that happen(I don't think she came directly from Laura but someone else)?? But then again it really does come down to the almighty $$. These boards are not even a microcosm of the real world. You can only do what you think is right and you can't expect "anyone" to be responsible (look at the state of our society..). Buyers want it easy, finding a well bred working pup requires being in the "know" or getting help, why bother when you can simply surf the web? I would wholly support a ban on dual reg. but it ain't gonna happen if all we do is talk about it. We have to "do" something.

[juliepoudrier]

I believe the astonishment at spending thousands on a dog is directed at the initial puppy price, not the subsequent training, trialing, and traveling costs (which is common to sports and sheepdog trialing).

^^Exactly. I get that people may not be aware of working dog breeders (though I wonder how many of the folks who participate on these forums and also run agility or other sports ever bother to present the case for buying from working breeders--do any of you do that, or do you all just go with the flow, since "obviously" the offspring of two agility dogs are "much more suited" for sports than the offspring of two working dogs--per what's been said here?), but it does boggle my mind that people think nothing of spending $1,000+ on a *pup.* (And let's not forget those who a few months later are ready to give up on said pup because some "expert" has told them it has bad structure.) The resistance to paying such prices for a pup in the working dog community is based in the fact that performance can't be guaranteed. As Kristine so elegantly outlined re: the time and effort it takes to raise and train a sports dog, the same applies to a working dog, and I'd be much more disappointed if my $2,000 puppy turned out to be a dud. It's not quite so bad if I've spent just $500.... (Of course maybe it's less likely for any pup to turn out to be a sports dud since sports doesn't actually require the natural/genetic aspect of working ability to be present.)

 

J.

[PSmitty]

<snip> (though I wonder how many of the folks who participate on these forums and also run agility or other sports ever bother to present the case for buying from working breeders--do any of you do that, or do you all just go with the flow, since "obviously" the offspring of two agility dogs are "much more suited" for sports than the offspring of two working dogs--per what's been said here?)<snip>

 

J.

 

Well, I do. Despite my involvement in the sport world (agility and flyball) I agree with the board philosophy when it comes to breeding Border Collies. I am a rescue person, but if I were ever going to buy a dog (which I'm not), I promise you it would be working bred.

 

And yes, when I get the chance, I share my feelings on the subject with my fellow sport people. I like to think I had a hand in my friend/agility instructor's choice of breeder when she bought a BC puppy a few years ago. She thought she wanted a dog from a certain sport breeder (starts with Hob...) but in the end got a puppy from an Open handler/working breeder. I'm sure I can't take credit, but I definitely spent plenty of time discussing it with her.

[sixx]

Or they have already come to the assumption that working dog breeders won't sell to them so they don't bother trying.

 

Agree! I have been one of these people. I also have friends in agility who are looking at sports breeders because they think they can't have a working bred pup. It's sad, really.

 

Either way, I'm really thankful for these boards. I'm still learning and will continue to do so.

[Liz P]

Just from a practical standpoint, working bred pups cost a whole lot less to buy! I once called about a litter bred by a person who used to be 100% sports but now does mostly USBCHA trials and some agility on the side. This person had purchased a very nicely bred working bitch and bred her to a well known trial dog. The cross sounded like it could be a good one. Anyone who trials, and even many sport and pet people would recognize the pedigrees. When I asked how much the pups were I was shocked to hear the price, $1500 at a time when most working bred pups were going for $200 to $500. (And $500 got you some of the finest breeding in the world!) I knew she had another litter planned out of a littermate sister to a bitch I really liked. The sister she owned had never worked because of a serious injury sustained as an adolescent. She still wanted $1200 for a pup from that litter even though the dam had not bee trained to do anything.

 

I've been told that some sport bred pups that have sold for over $2500. Clearly I am selling pups to the wrong people if I want to make a profit.

[sixx]

And if people only see sports bred dogs doing well and they love the sports bred dogs they currently own, what is going to make them step out of their comfort zone and pursue a puppy from a working breeder?

 

This is exactly what makes agility people want to buy a pup from a sports breeder. They see great success in so and so's dog from such and such sport breeder. Competitive people who want to excel at agility and earn top titles will want to purchase a dog from such and such breeder. They think that in order to get a great dog who will be fantastic to train at agility will HAVE to come from one of these well known sports breeders.

[airbear]

...I wonder how many of the folks who participate on these forums and also run agility or other sports ever bother to present the case for buying from working breeders--do any of you do that, or do you all just go with the flow..

I am one who does both agility and herding, and if someone asks me where to get their next agility border collie, I first recommend rescue. If they don't want to go rescue, I will give them the names of a few breeders whom I know personally, who are active in the stock dog community in the area. What I WON'T do, though, is badger someone who has already purchased a pup from a sport kennel (or a crappy 'working' breeder, or backyard breeder or pet store). It's not unlike this thread about Big Hats turning out pups with known defects, or putting their studs to unproven bitches, etc:

 

... calling out big hats or anyone else could make life very unpleasant for the person doing to calling out. The working stockdog community is pretty darn small and memories are pretty darn long. Even if the person were speaking the truth, I expect there would be repercussions. So until breeders themselves are willing to stand on their spoken principles and be ethical in their breeding practices, I don't think there's much the average person can do.

Well, it's the same in agility. I am not going to go up to the top handlers in this sport and extoll the virtues of the work-bred collie (or the sin of the sporter collie) any more than I would berate a Big Hat for studding out his dog to any POS bitch whose owner is willing to pay the stud fee. It is one thing to be all moralistic and preachy on a fairly anonymous board, and quite something else when these are the people that you see and compete with in real life. Like I said, if asked, I will go out of my way to help find them a pup off decent parents. I think I've helped maybe 6 people get a pup from either rescue or a good breeder. Go with the flow? I guess. There's lots of it in both the sport world and the herding world.

[Rave]

If you go up to a sports person and tell them their Sport BC or Barbie BC is not a Border Collie, or is a different breed than your working-bred dog, I guarantee you they'll think you're nuts and certainly won't believe you. Sport people know about working lines, don't think that they don't. The majority don't care though - they would prefer a proven sport dog raised a certain way.

 

Even if a sports person wants a working-bred dog, it's not the easiest thing to sit down and search online. Some working breeders don't use or have email or websites, so it becomes "who you know and can reach." Some won't call you back, some won't sell to sports people or anyone doing AKC. Even someone who knows those in working circles and can devout hours searching online can still have difficulty finding what's available out there.

 

Pretty much every sport breeder has a great website, is easily reachable via email and can send you gobs of pics and pedigrees with a few clicks of a mouse. They also raise the pups a certain way, a way that sports people want; I can say in my limited experience it has made a difference (pups "raised" in a barn with very little socialization and training vs. pups raised in house who have seen or heard virtually everything before 8 weeks). << edit - that's my experience, not saying all working or sport breeders are like the ones I got mine from

 

It would take a lot of outreach from working breeders to reach sports people and in the end might not matter. From what I've heard over the years, I seriously doubt working breeders want that anyway.

 

I really can't recall how many times over the years this has been discussed on the Boards and it's still the exact same conversation 10 years later.

[Root Beer]

^^Exactly. I get that people may not be aware of working dog breeders (though I wonder how many of the folks who participate on these forums and also run agility or other sports ever bother to present the case for buying from working breeders--do any of you do that, or do you all just go with the flow,

 

Actually, I tend to promote and encourage rescue.

[PSmitty]

Actually, I tend to promote and encourage rescue.

 

Yes, as do I, obviously. Unfortunately, at least around here, a lot of serious agility people don't want a rescue. I talked to the friend I mentioned earlier about a rescue, but she was not interested. Also, like Kristi said, I'm not going to bash anyone's choice for where they got their current dog(s). If they're actively looking for another, I will try to talk to them about working breeders.

[Root Beer]

Yes, as do I, obviously. Unfortunately, at least around here, a lot of serious agility people don't want a rescue. I talked to the friend I mentioned earlier about a rescue, but she was not interested. Also, like Kristi said, I'm not going to bash anyone's choice for where they got their current dog(s). If they're actively looking for another, I will try to talk to them about working breeders.

 

That is something pretty cool about this area. I know a lot of people who participate in various sports with Border Collies whose dogs are rescues.

 

I think that's part of why this "real Border Collie" and "non-real Border Collie" thing really doesn't work for me. When you are talking about people who have given a home to a Border Collie from a shelter, rescue, or other homeless situation, and then they are committed to giving the dog a great life, and they put a good bit of their heart and soul into training the dog to a level in a sport where they can go out and compete, I don't think that sort of talk has any place. I would consider it highly disrespectful to even imply that any of these people did not have a "real Border Collie" because the original owner purchased the dog from a sport Border Collie breeder, conformation Border Collie breeder, or the exact origin of the dog is unknown. I just would not consider it appropriate.

 

When I talk about rescue, I tend to talk about my own experiences with my dogs - both the challenges and the rewarding aspects of training and competing with rescues. I will often mention that Dean's original owners did get him from a breeder of working Border Collies and talk a bit about what I appreciate in him because of that. If someone is interested in more info, I give that to them.

[juliepoudrier]

<snip> What I WON'T do, though, is badger someone who has already purchased a pup from a sport kennel (or a crappy 'working' breeder, or backyard breeder or pet store). <snip>

I am not going to go up to the top handlers in this sport and extoll the virtues of the work-bred collie (or the sin of the sporter collie) any more than I would berate a Big Hat for studding out his dog to any POS bitch whose owner is willing to pay the stud fee. It is one thing to be all moralistic and preachy on a fairly anonymous board, and quite something else when these are the people that you see and compete with in real life. Like I said, if asked, I will go out of my way to help find them a pup off decent parents. I think I've helped maybe 6 people get a pup from either rescue or a good breeder. Go with the flow? I guess. There's lots of it in both the sport world and the herding world.

 

Just to clarify, since you were responding to me and even quoting me from another thread (where it might have been helpful to include the entire paragraph you quoted from since otherwise it's a bit incomplete): I am NOT asking if sports people badger other sports people or harangue them or stalk them or anything else when it comes to where to get a pup. I SIMPLY ASKED if, when the subject of getting a pup comes up, any of the sports folks--and specifically the ones on this forum who post that they understand the value of getting a pup from a working breeder--actually make the case for getting such a pup to their sports associates. I did NOT ask if you badger people who have already bought a pup or harass people who regularly buy from sports breeders. I SIMPLY ASKED if the folks who are apparently aware of both sides of the issue--either from this forum or from having working dogs themselves and also participating in sports--helped to spread the message when possible.

 

Note this doesn't mean anyone has to attack anyone else's choices. As Laura S. pointed out, this discussion comes up with some regularity, and many of the sports people who post make comments like "working breeders need to market themselves to the sports people if they want to sell pups." It seems to me that one way for that to work would be for the sports people who are aware of the concerns of working breeders, and concerned for the future of the working dog, to help with educating the folks they spend time with doing sports.

 

There's not some nefarious purpose to my question. Just an honest question asking what I thought could be obvious, but apparently isn't. If that makes me moralistic and preachy, so be it. I for one do try to educate from the working dog side as much as I can, and while I may not call a Big Hat an idiot to his face, I make no secret of how I feel about breeding, training, or care practices if I'm asked (i.e., although it may be pointless or even culturally suicidal to take on the big hats in a particular sport, a person can certainly influence his/her peers at least somewhat).

 

(And I assumed it was a given that rescue folks would suggest rescue first. Even as a working dog person, I think I've made that same first suggestion here over many years.... I was really just hoping to hear that at least some folks who understand the working side of the issue trying to educate their friends, and guess what? Trying to educate doesn't require preachiness or a patronizing attitude. But whatever.)

 

J.

[Blackdawgs]

I think that's part of why this "real Border Collie" and "non-real Border Collie" thing really doesn't work for me.

 

It doesn't work for me either. And as someone whose dog isn't a real Border Collie, I don't feel particularily inclined to educate my agility friends on YOUR (the stock dog world's) behalf.

[brady's mom]

I never found it hard to find a working breeder. Brady was ranch bred, but I intended for him to be a companion/agility/flyball partner. He's on a limited registry contract (as he should be), but I just went to stockdog.com to look up breeders to talk to when I was researching the breed and looking around. The breeder didn't mind that he was going to a non-working home, either, so long as he was on a limited contract with terms stating that he had to be neutered since he wouldn't be contributing to the working gene pool, something I agree with entirely.

 

 

Sorry if this is redundant or completely irrelevant. I just read that some people may find it hard to get a pup from a working breeder, and I think that's easily solved by doing a little in-depth research.

[Journey]

If you're not inclined to educate then it won't bother you when the quality of the high caliber Border Collies is that of a golden retriever will it.

[MicheleS.]

I am one who participates in obedience and agility with my dogs and because of these boards have I become aware of the importance of a working bred dog. Actually I had no clue before finding these boards that a split existed in the breed. I was aware of it in the GSD and aware of it in the aussie. I personally prefer living with and training dogs from working lines. When it is time for my next dog, if not a rescue, I definitely want it to come from a working breeder.

Yes, I sure do try to educate when the subject comes up. And because I do mainly associate with sport people, many are surprised that there is a split/difference in the breed. Sometimes I do get looked at like I have 2 heads but that's okay, maybe I gave them something to think about.