MyTDogs Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Is it just me?? I am finding these threads maddening lately. It seems everyone would rather get their panties in a bunch over some imagined dis' of their dog or their chosen sport or their trailing venue instead of focusing on the REAL PROBLEM! We are loosing our Working Border Collies. Someday, in the not too distant future, we may only be able find Sporters or Barbies in some combination with the Working Border Collie we all love. Why is it so hard for people to be objective & see that no one wants to prevent them from participating in their chosen sport? Everyone is happy when people are ready & willing to spend time with their dogs doing whatever they want (vs. leaving it locked in the yard or something). It is just important to understand that the Working Border Collie excels at any & all of those things! There is no need to go to a Sport Breeder or a Barbie Breeder...just get your dog from proven working lines. If you need help to find a breeder please ask here- I bet you can easily find suitable litters. And guess what? They cost around $400- $600...even from top working dog parents. I decided I wanted to begin my puppy search in December & I have almost too many pups to choose from! I thought it would take months to find the right pup and it has only been barely a month. I think some of the comments about SG are because she is an icon in the agility community. She should know better. Someone who puts themselves up for everyone else to emulate has a greater responsibility to know the issues & to do the right thing. In this place- these boards- supporting Working Border Collie breeders is the right thing. I am sure there are plenty of agility & KC forums that will not care about who she supports with her dog choices, but here, it matters and we will comment on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 AMEN!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 IMHO SG is a very good trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 It is just important to understand that the Working Border Collie excels at any & all of those things! There is no need to go to a Sport Breeder or a Barbie Breeder...just get your dog from proven working lines. Here's the quandary, though. In order to convince the top sport folks to purchase, raise, and compete with working bred Border Collies, the working breeders would have to market to them to serious competitors as potential sport prospects. And that's kind of a problem, isn't it? You can't really breed for working ability alone, but actively market the dogs as sport prospects. The sport Border Collie breeders are doing that. They can say "these puppies are offspring of these two top proven dogs in (insert sport)". And while that might not mean a thing to anyone here, it does to many of the people who are looking to purchase in that market. I'm not defending it or saying it's right, nor even that I would purchase from such a breeder (says the one whose newest Border Collie was a stray on the street). But most of the people that I know who would be looking to obtain a sport prospect of any breed are going to consider breeders who have some knowledge of that breed in the sport of their choice. You can point fingers at them and say "they should know this" or "they should know that", but the fact is that they are doing what they know to do. Many of them simply aren't going to consider purchasing a puppy from a working Border Collie breeder because such breeders are not readily visible to them. Sure they could find one if they were committed to doing so and were willing to put the effort forth. But who really commits to something of which he or she is barely aware? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yes SG is an excellent trainer/handler of agility dogs....brilliant I would say..not trying to undermine her accomplishments....but I don't think anyone was really saying she wasn't.... But there have been many a talented trainer/handler who didn't necessarily make the best choices for the breed they were working with...I'm not directing this towards SG...I don't think I need to name specific kennels or trainers/handlers who are choosing "designer border collies" or bc's bred for a specific task...they want to win and they want a competitive edge..the same drive that propels someone like SG to become an incredible trainer/handler is the same drive that will influence her decision in choosing a border collie from a sport bred kennel... I don't know SG personaly but I would say that the majority of trainer/handlers interested in being competitive in dog sports are led to believe that in order to get that edge they need to go to a "designer breeder".....it becomes less about the ethics behind there choice(if they are even aware of the working border collie debate) and more about agility or flyball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Here's the quandary, though. In order to convince the top sport folks to purchase, raise, and compete with working bred Border Collies, the working breeders would have to market to them to serious competitors as potential sport prospects. And that's kind of a problem, isn't it? You can't really breed for working ability alone, but actively market the dogs as sport prospects. I think that is a significant Catch 22. Even if you could convince sports people to only buy working bred pups (I've been out of sports for a few years, but most people I knew definitely wanted puppies not teens or young adults), could the demand out there begin to be met by working breeders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 IMHO SG is a very good trainer. And she'll tell you that herself all day long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 So...if one is interested in being extremely successful in agility they should seek out a sport breeder?? You do understand that even though Buzz's breeding was made with no intention for the pups talent on stock, Juice is from strait working lines, even though she didn't use him for that.. Also, Jan Demellos main agility sire, who is arguably one of the most succesful producers of talented agility dogs...is from strait working lines....I am aware of the person who has his full blooded sister who has produced many outstanding sheepdogs for work and trials... I don't know anything about agility, but am curious as to the name of the dog who is the sister to Jan's top sire of agilgity dogs. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Good points, Kristine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I know a number of working BC breeders who won't sell to a sport home regardless of how pro-working BC they are and how much they hate ACK. Get your dog where you want to get your dog and don't feel bad about it because guess what, it's your dog and your choice no matter what anyone else tells you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Here's the quandary, though. In order to convince the top sport folks to purchase, raise, and compete with working bred Border Collies, the working breeders would have to market to them to serious competitors as potential sport prospects. And that's kind of a problem, isn't it? You can't really breed for working ability alone, but actively market the dogs as sport prospects. The sport Border Collie breeders are doing that. They can say "these puppies are offspring of these two top proven dogs in (insert sport)". And while that might not mean a thing to anyone here, it does to many of the people who are looking to purchase in that market. I'm not defending it or saying it's right, nor even that I would purchase from such a breeder (says the one whose newest Border Collie was a stray on the street). But most of the people that I know who would be looking to obtain a sport prospect of any breed are going to consider breeders who have some knowledge of that breed in the sport of their choice. You can point fingers at them and say "they should know this" or "they should know that", but the fact is that they are doing what they know to do. Many of them simply aren't going to consider purchasing a puppy from a working Border Collie breeder because such breeders are not readily visible to them. Sure they could find one if they were committed to doing so and were willing to put the effort forth. But who really commits to something of which he or she is barely aware? See, to me, it is not a quandary....if SG et al. were truly concerned with the future of the Working Border Collie they would get their dogs from working stock & they would promote that to their followers. In the same way they educate them on "crate games" & "success with one jump", etc... As I said before, the gurus have a responsibility to know the issues and to set good example for the others...it doesn't always happen that way- obviously. Around here claiming ignorance won't get anyone, even SG, a pass. This is why separation is so important. When people want to be just like SG or LM or any of the others (without 1st doing their homework) they can go the same Sporter breeder & get a dog without any confusion that they are getting a Working Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 @Rave .......... ten years here and 2,118 posts and that's the conclusion you've come to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Why would a top sport competitor be concerned with the plight of the working border collie? You want them to take "responsibility" for your ideas and beliefs? That's a bit ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 @Rave .......... ten years here and 2,118 posts and that's the conclusion you've come to? People will do what they want regardless. I have dogs from working lines, sport breeders and rescues and have no qualms about it. My choice. You can educate, but in the end the choice is up to each person for their particular needs. If their needs are a pup raised from a sport breeder, so be it. They don't deserve to be bashed for their decisions. The Boards have always been a bit on the extreme side. For the most part, working breeders aren't prepared to give sport people what they want. Yes I'm generalizing a bit here, but the needs of the true working breeder and the sports person are quite different. And why should working breeders worry about sport folks? IMO they shouldn't. They should do what they need/want to in order to preserve the working breed, and if the sport person is ok with that, then that's great. They shouldn't cater to the sports folks and I doubt most would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 As I said before, the gurus have a responsibility to know the issues and to set good example for the others...it doesn't always happen that way- obviously. Around here claiming ignorance won't get anyone, even SG, a pass. If you expect them to be mind readers and to know your mind in particular, they are bound to disappoint you. I'm not one to take the side of gurus, and I'm not really saying that I am in this case. But simply claiming that they "should know" does not in some way render them fully aware of everything you expect them to be aware of. The fact that they are gurus does not actually mean they know everything about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Why would a top sport competitor be concerned with the plight of the working border collie? You want them to take "responsibility" for your ideas and beliefs? That's a bit ludicrous. Well, because the plight of the working border collie is the plight of the border collie. If they love what the breed can do for them on an agility course so much, why wouldn't they care that their breeding practices/purchases are eroding it? Get your dog where you want to get your dog and don't feel bad about it because guess what, it's your dog and your choice no matter what anyone else tells you. Of course it is. And I'll assume you'd say the same to someone asking about buying a pup from a pet shop, then? Educating people about the ramifications of their choices is what this board is all about, but if people don't want to know, what can you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 They should do what they need/want to in order to preserve the working breed, and if the sport person is ok with that, then that's great. I couldn't decide which part of your post to quote, so I picked a random sentence. So, in your opinion, are we dealing with two different breeds? Border Collies and Sporter Collies? Should dual registration be banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 C Crocker I will send you the info in private if you want... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Why would a top sport competitor be concerned with the plight of the working border collie? You want them to take "responsibility" for your ideas and beliefs? That's a bit ludicrous. Yep, that's me...Ludacris. Thanks for helping to point out why separation is so important...because no matter how much you talk & try to educate, some people just won't give a #@%*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 So to answer the original question...NO her border collies are not from working lines...they are from sport breeders... Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 shyshep, I'd be interested also ...but I think I know who it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 First of all "Sporter" Collie sounds ridiculous. There's not as much difference between the working BC and sport BC as there is between the working and show. Is the Barbie Collie type of BC a different breed now? Not officially. Still called a BC and that's not going to change. If working breeders were going to split the breed, it would have happened already IMHO, but it hasn't and I doubt it ever will. This has been going on for quite some time now and really, what has changed? Not much. Anyway, I used to really care about all this stuff and be just like you all and up in arms about anything non-working BC. Not so much anymore. Mainly because I don't have time for what amounts to trivial matters in the grand scheme of life in general. Personally, I don't care about registration as I don't do anything that requires it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 There's not as much difference between the working BC and sport BC as there is between the working and show. What are you basing this on? Appearance? Is the Barbie Collie type of BC a different breed now? As far as I am concerned? Yes. I don't care about registration as I don't do anything that requires it. Do you care about the breed and its future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Sent it Jodi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantal Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 There's not as much difference between the working BC and sport BC as there is between the working and show. Not yet, but every problem starts somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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