Dog Whisperer

[bc friend]

Tonight's episode is supposed to include a segment on a border collie obsessed by running water.

 

Although I don't agree with all of Cesear's methods and feel the show makes it look like an "easy fix" for most problems, I am interested ins seeing what he says about this type of compulsion in a border collie.

[WildFlower]

Thanks for posting that this is going to be on. I too am curious to see what he says.

[wyzenny]

I'm not a fan of his but I think it'll be interesting to see how he tries his methods out on a BC. Don't know if it'll be beneficial but hey .. interesting. I'm curious to see what he says about the breed as well.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I've seen him work with border collies before. I was actually surprised about his no-nonsense approach. I obviously disliked the way he handled the problem. There was an older couple with a bc and they couldn't have their grand children over because this dog was ocd about "herding" them and would nip etc. You know the typical problems. He said, well, have you ever tried to teach her an acceptable behaviour instead of this? They said No. Go figure. He showed them how to interact with her better and taught them how to play frisbee with her (what a novel fricken concept hey?). Of course he had all his typical jerk stuff in there too, you know, pinch and "zzzzt" but, these people were clueless about their dogs needs and he showed them. So part of the episode was good I guess.

[mum24dog]

I'm not a fan of his but I think it'll be interesting to see how he tries his methods out on a BC.

 

Like this?

 

 

Pam

[BustopherJones]

A neurotic Border Collie? Does such a thing exist?

[eclare]

Like this?

 

 

Pam

 

 

That video is horrifying. Listening to CM talk about how "calm and relaxed" that panting, shaking, eyes-bugging-out-of-his head dog was had me frozen in horror.

[Rave]

What's wrong with a water obsession? I think it's cute. :-)

[mum24dog]

That video is horrifying. Listening to CM talk about how "calm and relaxed" that panting, shaking, eyes-bugging-out-of-his head dog was had me frozen in horror.

 

I can't watch even the most innocuous of his shows without wanting to grab him by the throat and shake him until he begs for mercy like that dog.

 

Pam

[PSmitty]

That video is horrifying. Listening to CM talk about how "calm and relaxed" that panting, shaking, eyes-bugging-out-of-his head dog was had me frozen in horror.

 

I'm at work, so I didn't watch with the sound on, so I don't know what BS he was saying, but watching that made me cringe. Ugh! He's trying to say that dog is calm and relaxed by the end?

 

That poor dog, just reading the video description, it seemed as if he's aggressive, so they just banished him to the garage for 10 months? If he's that bad off, wouldn't putting him down be the more humane answer? Again, I don't know the backstory, just gut reaction, which is very sad.

[Smokjbc]

I'm just feeling contrary today,it's not intentional .

 

Many people, including (or I should say especially) myself, would have PTS that dog. The dog was living in a garage for 10 months because he was so nasty. The dog wasn't hurt in any way, he just encountered someone that was no longer going to be intimidated by his bad (and yes, I mean bad, not just misunderstood) behavior. The dog did that panting, scaredy cat deal to himself, he wasn't beaten, jerked or anything but being asked to accept the presence and restraint of Cesar instead of trying to take his face off. He wouldn't have gotten to that point if he had not gone after Cesar. Surely, common dog sense says that to back off a dog that goes after your face will make the problem worse, not better. Should he have done nothing? Tried to train the dog from a distance by throwing treats at the little kissy-face?

 

Cesar was mostly talking about himself when he talked about being calmed and relaxed, not the dog. I do think using the word relax wouldn't work as well in that case as much as the word "surrender" might. Maybe forcing one's presence on a dog is a cruelty, but I don't see it that way. The dog's only chance, IMHO, is to learn that no matter how nasty he gets, the person he wants to back off isn't going to do it anymore.

 

It was an excerpt, not the end product. I don't remember the final verdict from when I saw the episode, but I do remember this dog was particularly aggressive and living a miserable, fearful life. Most trainers wouldn't even attempt to help a dog like that, or if they did, they would do more heinous things than anything in that video.

[Northof49]

. The dog did that panting, scaredy cat deal to himself, he wasn't beaten, jerked or anything but being asked to accept the presence and restraint of Cesar instead of trying to take his face off. He wouldn't have gotten to that point if he had not gone after Cesar. Surely, common dog sense says that to back off a dog that goes after your face will make the problem worse, not better. Should he have done nothing? Tried to train the dog from a distance by throwing treats at the little kissy-face?

 

Excuse me - the dog did that to himself NO - Milan did that to the dog. The dog DID NOT go into a calm relaxed state - Milan put the dog into a state of Learned Helplessness, which has nothing to do with "fixing" the dog.

 

I don't know what created the agression in the dog - however, what he did will not cure the dog - I can guarantee it. I have dealt with dogs that have had this kind of "training" and the only thing is that the behaviours have only been suppressed for a period of time, and they have always been worse OR the punishment based training is severe enought that the dog is triggered into a state of learned helplessness upon certain stimuli being present.

 

It is so sad to see a dog being put through this kind of thing, and I can't for the life of me understand why National Geographic has refused to heed all the well founded scientific studies by animal behaviourists such as Dr. Ian Dunbar, Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Dr. Karen Overall and Dr. Patricic McConnell, to name just a few that has proven that this type of training causes more damage than good.

[Eileen Stein]

If he's that bad off, wouldn't putting him down be the more humane answer?

 

More humane than to try muzzling him, handling him calmly and steadily, and calmly and steadily putting him on his side and holding him there?

 

I wish I could see what y'all are seeing -- what the horrifying thing is, what would make you want to grab this guy by the throat and shake him until he cries for mercy. I feel the same thing I always feel in these CM discussions -- a total disconnect between what I'm seeing and what (some) others are seeing.

 

It is so sad to see a dog being put through this kind of thing, and I can't for the life of me understand why National Geographic has refused to heed all the well founded scientific studies by animal behaviourists such as Dr. Ian Dunbar, Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Dr. Karen Overall and Dr. Patricic McConnell, to name just a few that has proven that this type of training causes more damage than good.

 

Maybe because they've seen results that you've decided couldn't happen?

 

Is what you perceive in this clip "severe . . . punishment based training"? Really?

[PSmitty]

More humane than to try muzzling him, handling him calmly and steadily, and calmly and steadily putting him on his side and holding him there?

 

Um, no. I meant more humane than banishing him to live alone in the garage forever. IF that's really what happened, and I did admit that I really only read the intro to the video, so I may not know the whole story.

[Smokjbc]

Excuse me - the dog did that to himself NO - Milan did that to the dog. The dog DID NOT go into a calm relaxed state - Milan put the dog into a state of Learned Helplessness, which has nothing to do with "fixing" the dog.

 

I don't know what created the agression in the dog - however, what he did will not cure the dog - I can guarantee it. I have dealt with dogs that have had this kind of "training" and the only thing is that the behaviours have only been suppressed for a period of time, and they have always been worse OR the punishment based training is severe enought that the dog is triggered into a state of learned helplessness upon certain stimuli being present.

 

Yes, the dog did it to himself- didn't you see the dog actual relax at the beginning? Cesar tried to reward him and the dog responded to it by going for his face. So yes, I stand by my statement. The dog did it to himself.

 

I don't think anyone believes that dog will ever be cured. But it's possible the dog can be shown that his behavior no longer gets him the result he wanted. I think I've seen Cesar say before that you will always have to be in control of that behavior- he uses the word "rehab" and just like an alcoholic- it will just take one successful aggressive act- for a dog to want that feeling of success (I try to bite- "scary" person goes away) again.

 

My complaint regarding Cesar is opposite of most people, I think he tries too hard to help dogs that are too dangerous to live in their current situations and impossible to place. One episode at the beginning of the series involved a small child in the house with a very reactive/aggressive older dog. I would have liked him to say "hey, your three year old is more important than keeping alive a dog that might take her face off". But that's just me ...

[Eileen Stein]

Um, no. I meant more humane than banishing him to live alone in the garage forever.

 

Oh, okay. I thought you were criticizing CM, not the dog's owners.

[juliepoudrier]

I watched the video earlier, and though I am no big fan of Cesar's, I was not horrified by it. The part where he emphasized not getting angry with the dog but instead remaining calm and matter-of-fact made perfect sense to me and if one took nothing else away from that short video, that is one very important thing to take away. I don't particularly agree with alpha rolls, but at the end the dog was not bug-eyed and it was lying there without him touching it. I guess some would call that learned helplessness, but I didn't see fear in the dog's expression at that point.

 

I also agree with the poster who noted that if the dog is so aggressive that it needed to be banished to the garage for months on end, then maybe euthanasia is a better end for the dog. I've been to enough stockdog clinics to see that even some dog savvy people often are unable to implement simple and effective corrections as done by the clinician, so I honestly wonder whether such a couple as the people in the short video clip would ever be able to manage the dog the way Cesar does (and that could apply to most of the problem dogs he deals with)--that is, once Cesar is out of the picture, what happens to the dog? Probably right back in the garage....

 

J.

[Shetlander]

I like Cesar, on the whole. I think the most dangerous thing about him is people who lack his talent and skills could cause damage to themselves, other people or dogs trying to do what he does. I don't look at everything in terms of dominance the way he is inclined to and I choose to train many things differently. There are things he does or believes that I don't, but I've seen him take on dogs that I wouldn't have touched with a 10 foot pole. Like Eileen, I don't see him brutalizing or mistreating dogs but he does very calmly insist at times that a dog lie on its side, stop barking, quit threatening other dogs, walk on leash calmly, etc. And he seems to have success. Of course, you are not seeing everything with TV editing but the owners of these dogs report that there have been improvements that were maintained. Some dogs become almost "normal" and others are at least liveable. He's done follow-ups and sometimes there's been backsliding. A couple of times the dogs have been put down. He doesn't seem to be trying to hide those failures, though he has expressed dismay when he feels dogs could have been rehabilitated and were not.

 

Again, there is editing as well as picking and chosing which cases to show. But I think he makes sense in a lot of what he says. I've also seen him use a variety of techniques including positive reinforcement. And I remember one show where he stopped the woman from over-correcting her dog, noting it not only was setting the dog off into some very nasty displays but the dog responded much better to a very quiet approach. He never seems to get even grudging acknowledgemet from his critics for those kinds of things.

[Eileen Stein]

I guess some would call that learned helplessness . . .

 

Julie, I know we're not in disagreement about this, but I just wanted to comment on the "learned helplessness" concept. If a dog who is on a chain and unattended manages to get itself tangled up so that it can't move, then it will learn that struggling is no use, and will stop struggling. To call that "learned helplessness" seems to me to render that term valueless. It is just a reasonable reaction to the situation the dog finds itself in. If the term "learned helplessness" is to have any usefulness at all, it seems to me it should only be applied to a dog who has become, for whatever reason, habitually unwilling to act in a situation where it is appropriate to act, because a sense that effort is no use has become ingrained in the dog. IOW, I think the term could not be usefully applied here without seeing the dog's ensuing behavior.

 

I also agree with the poster who noted that if the dog is so aggressive that it needed to be banished to the garage for months on end, then maybe euthanasia is a better end for the dog. I've been to enough stockdog clinics to see that even some dog savvy people often are unable to implement simple and effective corrections as done by the clinician, so I honestly wonder whether such a couple as the people in the short video clip would ever be able to manage the dog the way Cesar does (and that could apply to most of the problem dogs he deals with)--that is, once Cesar is out of the picture, what happens to the dog? Probably right back in the garage....

 

I could only agree with this conclusion if I knew more about the dog's history than is shown in this clip. From the clip we know very little -- at most, that the owners apparently confined the dog to the garage for months, apparently for aggression. That sounds bad, I agree. But I have seen dogs so aggressive that an observer would think they are crazy turn into different dogs when they have been removed from a crazy-making situation. The owners in those cases had no idea what the cause of the dogs' craziness was, but it's entirely possible that they could be made to see what is causing the problem and what needs to be changed. I have no reason to think that could happen, or did happen, here, but I just don't feel able to make a judgment without knowing more about the history, the situation, and the owners.

[bcnewe2]

My complaint regarding Cesar is opposite of most people, I think he tries too hard to help dogs that are too dangerous to live in their current situations and impossible to place.

 

I'm with Jamie on CM.

I think he does an amazing job with the clueless public, not all the time but he doesn't give up easily. I've also watched him evolve into using all kinds of methods. He's not steadfast in his ways. I notice in more recent episodes he turns to holistic healing and even accupunture.

 

I've also seen him use treat based methods when the situation calls for it. Like I said, I think he's willing to go out on a limb and try about anything that doesn't "harm" a dog which to me means he's still learning and that's all one can ask of a good trainier.

 

If he helps half the dogs we see him work with I'd call him pretty successful.

 

I've seen way worse been done to a dog in the name of stockdog training, not really training IMO but none the less that's what it's called.

 

If you don't like his methods don't use them, if they bother you to see, don't watch them.

JMHO

[juliepoudrier]

Eileen,

Of course we can't infer much from a short video clip, but I think it's a pretty fair generalization to note that most people, unless they are very experienced, aren't going to be able to replicate Cesar's techniques unless he's truly following up with them as someone suggested he apparently does. I commend the couple for recognizing that their dog needed help, but then again, the poor dog has been confined in the garage for *10 months*--perhaps they've sought other help in that time, perhaps not. No way to know. But I do think that Cesar is a talented trainer and I also think that it would be difficult for many people to implement his techniques without a lot of one-on-one attention from Cesar. And if the dog was so aggressive that it was confined, even if that confinement added to the crazy factor, I don't think there's any reason to believe that the owners are going to be able to change things drastically even after Cesar has made a start for them. Sure, we don't have a background to know if they could or couldn't, but if the only thing we have to go on is that their response to an aggressive dog was to lock him in the garage, well, that doesn't bode well IMO for future human-dog interactions. That's all. (FWIW, I have a fear aggressive dog and I had him for 9 years before he ever bit me severely enough to make me think twice about handling him. But I have to tell you that once such a bite has happened, even if you're trying not to convey wariness to the dog, I don't think you can hide that entirely. And I'm a dog savvy person who handled this particular dog without a major incident for *9 years* even though he has been fear aggressive all that time, and now every time I handle him I wonder.... So part of my skepticism with others being able to follow through with aggressive dogs like the one in the video is based on my own experiences with a dog who exhibits OCD and aggressive behavior and who has been managed successfully for a relatively long period of time. It's not easy to ever trust such a dog, and as I said, I am not the average pet owner.)

 

J.

[Guest echoica]

very interesting discussion. i just want to jump in on one point. people keep calling CM a "trainer" but that he is not. he does rehabilitation. i think that is an important distinction to be made when discussing his techniques.

[pansmom]

I am going to be really brave and post this.

 

I clicked on the link, but can't watch the video. I'm scared to. Part of the reason is it sounds too much like what we went through, another part is some people's reaction to what they see in the dog makes me horrified that I will see that too, and a third part is deep down I have this terrible fear that I could've learned something from it and it's too late now. So yeah, really don't want to watch it.

 

That being said, even veterinary behaviorists talk about the importance of being firm and projecting confidence as a handler. If CM teaches that, there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself. Although I would never use physical corrections anymore, after reading these boards voraciously and working with Pan (my severely fear aggressive BC-x) under the tutelage of a vet. behaviorist, I have learned the efficacy firsthand - not only with Pan, but also with the dogs I handle now on a weekly basis in my volunteer work - that the figurative short leash and firm clear body language goes a long way.

 

Today I watched a strong tall male shelter worker be dragged by a GSD into the yard for me to photograph her for adoption pics - an escape artist - she had escaped from a high fence inside a high fence. Totally bored at the shelter obviously. Beautiful dog. Well the second I took her leash I turned it into a short leash, showed her a treat, showed her how to sit for it (with a lure and reinforcing verbal cues), and showed her I wanted her to walk politely on the leasharound the yard. All of a sudden I had the dog's attention, and she wasn't pulling but prancing around and sitting for treats and looking great for pics and so on.

 

But my general impression from what I remember about CM - we don't have TV and I've only seen a few episodes, all before I had a dog or at least before I consulted the actual vet. behaviorist - looking back on it from what I remember is that although he is all about the confidence and calmness, he isn't very conscious of the expression of fear in dog body language and also he could be a lot less physical and negative and still be just as effective, probably even more effective in the long term, and without risking setting off severely fear aggressive dogs. It's been my experience with both reactive and sound-temperamented dogs that ignoring (dramatically turning away from) bad behavior works a lot better and faster than saying zsssssssssssht or using physical corrections. I believe this is because the withdrawal of attention gives the dog space to think instead of react. I mean, I used dramatic ignoring when the GSD tried to jump on me, today, just twice, and I watched her control herself and stop herself in the process of doing it, twice, and then stop the behavior altogether.

 

As for the owners, I couldn't bring myself to watch this video, but I wonder if it is fair to judge the owners for banishing a severely fear aggressive dog to the garage for ten months. I just keep thinking - if the dog was as bad as Pan - maybe it got that way through cluelessness and mismanagement, okay - but we don't know what they tried before they contacted CM. Clearly they should've gone to a behaviorist but what if they didn't know. And what if that was what dogs would've done to the dog - isn't that what dogs do to messed up dogs? Shun them in an attempt to teach them their behavior isn't acceptable? That's what I'm talking about, above, that's what a behaviorist taught me, with the ignoring. Yes it's a super long time out... Really long. I hate to think of how that dog felt. Sad and lonely, I'm sure. But to judge the family? I don't know. The amount of fear that a really severely screwed up dog can cause in you - it's really quite unbelievable. I loved Pan, so much, but I think my blood pressure immediately dropped 30 points after she was gone. My experience with her scarred me. Even as recently as a couple months ago, a couple times, when my face was close to the face of my beautiful sweet gentle-spirited Vala (the gentlest dog ever--so sensitive and sweet and affectionate), I got this faint passing vision in my head - brief, flashing - the possibility of her turning on me. I didn't react a bit, of course, because I was aware it wasn't her that was causing the image (she loves being near me and trusts me so completely to protect her, she's such a devoted dog) - it was my experience with poor Pan. In other words, living with a severely fear aggressive dog is pretty traumatic. It sounds from people's descriptions of the dog's aggression toward CM (again I couldn't watch the video) that the dog was really sick and had really learned some terrible behaviors - probably from bad wiring exacerbated by mismanagement early in its life - if the dog really went at CM's face, well, Pan would do precisely that sometimes to my husband if she didn't recognize him - seriously go Cujo, and then pee on herself while she was doing it. It was all very sick and sad. So I try to tell myself yes it was more humane to put her down. She was scared and unhappy and unable to control herself most of the time, and constantly failing at the relationships that mattered most to her, as someone on the boards kindly told me. But I can't really judge the people. A garage would've been a nice place to give Pan some space. Again, I haven't seen the clip - can't watch it - but I read people saying we don't know what the owners tried, what they knew, what happened, before this. Who knows? That dog might have been happier - less scared - in the garage. If it was disturbed enough, and scared of its people, or their daily house sounds (sound reactivity + fear aggression, maybe even with redirected aggression like Pan had, or territorial aggression + fear aggression like Pan had and the house had lots of windows), it is a very real possibility the dog felt more secure in the garage. As long as it was fed, and got to go out to get exercise and use the bathroom regularly (hopefully they had a yard?) if it helped everyone decompress and eventually get to a situation where the dog could get through this and live...Then I say wonderful. At least the dog isn't dead now.

[Conner22]

wooooo

I can agree with pansmom. I used to have a fear aggressive dog who had alot of issues. The video brought back terrible memories. I PERSONALLY felt shaken after watching just remembering living with my boy- the stress in my personal life was terrible when he was living with me. For 1.5 yrs I was AFRAID of anything which could start a "fit- I didn't even play music in the house just to try and have peace with a dog that was set off by the smallest changes.

I still feel like a bad owner for PTS, but in the end my poor boy was miserable. I never banned him, he banned himself. He preferred quiet dark places and would avoid everything. I finally did the "right thing by him" because after awhile even the dark quiet places didn't give him peace.

I do not agree nor disagree with CM only because I've never needed to use his methods. They do not apply to any of my current or prior dogs. His methods would not help my fear aggressive dog, nor my slow maturer who is easily distracted and very sensitive to any disapproval, nor my boy who is also very sensitive to approval and very very biddable.

The thing I never *understood* about CM method is it is based of pack heirarchy- and considering a dog's pack situation is more similar to coyotes- which is a loose heirarchy, banding together for large prey, disbanding for smaller prey, just need enough order to hunt, not a "strict" heirarchy, loosely based rules.... I never could figure WHY wolf heirarchy would apply to dogs (which isn't even as strict as previously interpreted).

I do see him help out dogs that by breed are typically discribed as "needing an owner with a firm hand". And to me that makes sense. He teaches to firmly be in charge (which only SOME dogs need). I do not like how both CM and the show portrays it should apply to ALL dogs, and any situation. If you "tsked" my one boy to assert calm control over a situation, he would stress and try to appologize for making you tsk him. He loves being right, and most correction makes him nervous and lose focus and ruin a training session.

Is CM "bad"- haha I have no idea. I would have JUMPED when the dog lunged repeatedly like that. Kudos just for staying calm the entire time! Wow nerves of steel!

[kelpiegirl]

In regard to the clip of that aussie/bulldog case that was on youtube- did anyone notice that the dogs legs are in such bad shape, that it is amazing he can move? Look at his hind legs- his hock- on both legs, they are so far forward, it's just well, painful. I agree with the sentiment that CM may work with dogs that in the end just won't be able to live with anyone other than CM, or someone who has trained at length with him. Some dogs are just wired wrong.

 

I watched most of the BC episode last night- woke up for the end. I see the girl had put the dog into herding lessons.