Dog Whisperer

[bcnewe2]

Or the way he thought stopping at a farm on his way to the beach to pick up some discarded sheep fleece so that the dog could sniff it (without any sheep anywhere in sight on the beach - LOL) and somehow would trigger a reaction just because he's a herding dog? I mean, really?! He could have picked up a roadkill with the same success

 

That sure got me to giggling.....

As you guys know, we live in a very strange place (used to be a junkyard, now...it's getting better) I don't know where the skins are coming from, haven't found the source and things are looking better so it's got me stumped....but everyday Lilly or Jazz will drag up an old skin or cow leg or other simularly discusting thing. Lilly is dragging way more than that up...various articles of old clothing (none that i recognize) skulls, other bones, old horns from different animals, shoes (ok those might be DS's), stuffed animals and just about anything you can think of. She even drug a tote that I keep the chicken feed in (it was empty setting outside the chicken coop) down to her "area" which is in front of the sheep pen or, in it if she can fit her booty under the gate. We've been joking that it's her toy or booty box! Today I found an antique shoe or what was left of it after laying around for years in the weather.

 

Pach my DD's senior dog has a horrible habit of eating poo, we've done everything possible to help him curb his poo fetish but I really think he's just hungry (he's on thyroid meds and very little food to keep his weight at a good spot) well, he's found really old hides to be way more satisfying than poo so he spends hours outside chewing on hides. The sheep wool doesn't interest him in the least but ummm yummmy hides!

 

So with Anda's response all I could think of was next I'm gonna get road kill as the prize chewy toy!

 

I call Mick and Dew pirates, every morning they run down and plunder the booty that Lilly collected the night before. She waits till they finish plundering her booty and drags it back down.

I can't believe they haven't chewed up the stuffed toys. Mick and her have been trading off with a stuffed lion cub for weeks. Funny to see Mick running to help me do chores with a stuffy in his mouth. As he reaches the gate he quickly spits it out...cause everyone knows you can't be taken seriously with a toy hanging out your mouth or at least his sheep laugh at him!

 

I don't think CM quite gets the concept of what's going on with working livestock. Everytime I've seen him take a dog to sheep (usually with a guy out in CA that is into all breed herding and well...maybe not the best, but great tv spot). I've seen CM's face just light up watching what's going on. I wish he had the chance to see what real work is really like or understand what he's seeing isn't real training or work in the BC since anyways.

 

I didn't "get" what he was doing with the water dog either. I have 2 water dogs, never had water intoxication DUH.... I'd never let it get that far. But I know I've been out washing the car and Dew or Pach will be going after the hose....I get so mad I just want to......SQUIRT THEM and we know that doesn't work!

Dew hates taking a bath but give her a hose, pool, river or pond and she turns into a fish! Pach OTOH hates to get wet or swim but loves to chase the hose water.

I let them have their fun then tell them "that'll do" or QUIT which ever comes out my mouth and they slink away cause I've ruined everything!

[Anda]

I don't think CM quite gets the concept of what's going on with working livestock. Everytime I've seen him take a dog to sheep (usually with a guy out in CA that is into all breed herding and well...maybe not the best, but great tv spot). I've seen CM's face just light up watching what's going on. I wish he had the chance to see what real work is really like or understand what he's seeing isn't real training or work in the BC since anyways.

 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with this, Kristen.

[Jimmyd65]

What's wrong with a water obsession? I think it's cute. :-)

 

 

Did you watch the show? The dog almost died from being obsessed with the water. It's cute but also can be deadly.

[geonni banner]

Did you watch the show? The dog almost died from being obsessed with the water. It's cute but also can be deadly.

 

It's true. I had a friend who had a Shetland Sheepdog that normally had a rock-solid recall. But she was surf-obsessed. We would take her to the dog park (which, though very large, was mercifully fenced) that had a bit of shoreline, and she was determined to "come by" the entire Pacific Ocean. Only physically grabbing her would stop her. She would run along the shore, nipping at approaching waves and she had this mad gleam in her eye. Yeah, it was cute - for a minute - until you realized she couldn't shut it off... If you called her she would turn toward you and start in your direction, but she'd only get a few steps and then she'd turn back with a strangled yelp and go for it again. Fiona was no swimmer either. She didn't even like to get her feet wet. The first time it happened it was a cold, overcast day, and she ran that shoreline 'till she was on the point of collapse. I never thought of it as herding behavior - just OCD.

[Guest echoica]

does anyone know the episode # for this one...i want to download it to watch! i couldn't find this info online.

[mum24dog]

I like Victoria Stilwell a lot, especially when she stopped yelling at the owners so much. I am probably closer to her in training and interaction than Cesar. However, she doesn't take on anywhere near the level of aggressive (towards animals or humans), disturbed dogs that Cesar does.

 

Actually, yes she does. What she doesn't do is exaggerate how bad the dog is or provoke it into reacting like CM does.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

As for lying a dog on his side until he calms down, *holding him there until he does*, that's a technique called in positive training circles (as promoted, in detail at the Portland APDT conferance) called a "zen down". Isn't if funny how changing the name has made it acceptable in the same circles that actively trash CM and similar trainers?

 

But do they recommend jabbing and ssshhhtting and generally intimidating the dog?

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

It also made me think about snarling, snapping dogs we used to see at the last veterinary clinic I worked in. We essentially did the same thing to do treatments on dogs brought in for office visits - shots, check-ups, whatever.

 

A vet that did that to my dog would lose my business. It wouldn't happen though since I'm always present (except during operations, obviously).

 

Pam

[Shetlander]

Actually, yes she does. What she doesn't do is exaggerate how bad the dog is or provoke it into reacting like CM does.

 

I don't have cable any more so maybe Victoria S. has branched out in the past year. I've seen her work with very animal aggressive dogs, but never with any that were anywhere near as people aggressive as some of the ones Cesar has taken on.

[nxpress62]

I think its interesting that all the anti CM trainers suggest that the dog in the video was not calm, Cesar admitted as much in the video. Obviously follow up would be very important with a dog like that. The interesting thing is that nobody has a better suggestion. What? Give the dog a hug and tell him he's loved or something more PC than teaching him biting and snapping is not acceptable? Really when you read between the lines, the majority of Cesar's shows are about telling the owner to get off their fat butts and walk and interact with their dogs if they want healthy, well-adjusted dogs.

[herdcentral]

IThe interesting thing is that nobody has a better suggestion. What? Give the dog a hug and tell him he's loved or something more PC than teaching him biting and snapping is not acceptable? Really when you read between the lines, the majority of Cesar's shows are about telling the owner to get off their fat butts and walk and interact with their dogs if they want healthy, well-adjusted dogs.

 

Why do people think that other methods mean giving a hug? My fear aggressive dog would have reacted in exactly the same way as that dog in the video did if put in the same situation before I started working with her. That type of method escalated her fear of strangers, I know because I went down the same path with the help of a trainer. It just wasnt working, so I switched and found a woman highly recommended for working with aggressive dogs using positive methods (or whatever you like to call it) of which I knew nothing about.

 

I spent a lot of time and effort training obedience combined with time and effort spent in using desensitisation techniques. I wont go into lengthy explanations but it involved treats and working at a distance where she didnt react, and gradually getting closer, and many other things besides. She eventually learnt to relax and she also slowly began to associate strangers with good things. I also had her on a daily regime of obedience training and exercise.

 

The first person I worked with told me she was an extreme dog, and she was like nothing I had ever dealt with before. The woman that really helped me never gave up on her. It really showed me the power of more positive training methods with fear aggressive dogs. My girl was testament to that.

 

I have never watched CM, well I did watch one show and didnt really get it, so I dont want to make a judgement based on the one video, but it so reminded me of my dog and what didnt work for her.

 

However from what I have heard and read, yes I agree that Cesar does have some good things to say as well about owning dogs.

[mbc1963]

The interesting thing is that nobody has a better suggestion. What? Give the dog a hug and tell him he's loved or something more PC than teaching him biting and snapping is not acceptable?

 

Actually, a lot of us who own fear-reactive dogs have given better suggestions, which have worked with our dogs. (Observe. Go slow. Desensitize. The posts are many paragraphs long. "Give a hug" is a very poor summary of them.)

 

I, like HerdCentral, started with my dog and a bunch of leash pops - I'd read book after book! - when he acted fearful (snarling, snapping at other dogs and humans). And all it did was make my dog scared of ME on top of being scared of everything else he was already scared of. When I looked down and realized it was MY behavior that was making my dog cringe in fear, I knew that I was taking the wrong path.

 

Think of it: my dog didn't know me from Adam, was walking around in a world that terrified him, and the person who was teaching him about the world was popping his leash during walks that should have been the highlight of his days. To the dog, who was over threshold to the point that he couldn't think logically, the leash pops were completely random - just another very unpleasant event in an unpredictable and frightening world.

 

Almost as soon as I starting giving the dog space from the things that made him fearful, he started learning to trust me, and thus to trust the world. (Is this, in essence, telling the dog he's loved? Well, OK then, I'm fine with that language.) Then I could introduce him back (slowly!) to the things that were his triggers. Most of the time now, he looks normal.

 

I'm not a Cesar-hater, and I'm not averse to correcting my dog (verbally or with body blocks) when he misbehaves - and now that he's relatively stable and calm, he can take the corrections from me (someone trusted) without cringing. But I strongly believe Cesar is wrong about this case. My experience is that fear reactivity, met with domination and fear tactics, is self-proprelling.

 

Mary

[Blackdawgs]

The interesting thing is that nobody has a better suggestion. What?

 

The better and more humane approach is involving a veterinary behaviorist, who can evaluate the dog physically and mentally. Who can prescribe medications, if neccasary and work with the owners on the implimentation of a behavior modification plan that would minimize stress to the poor dog and minimize the probability of humans getting bitten.

 

Or maybe the humane thing would be to euthanize the dog.

 

Instead, the dog, who was obviously in a blind panic, was agitiated for the sake of ENTERTAINMENT. In my opinion, this is sick. No, CM was not beating the dog. But, what CM was doing was enough to drive THIS PARTICULAR dog into a blind panic. Not to mention the presense of the lights, the cameras, the tv crew, etc etc. Imagine the stress and panic that this poor dog, which had been banished to a garage was feeling.

 

Very sad.

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, it's been long enough that I've forgotten. Was this dog actually "diagnosed" as being fear aggressive? I agree with the posters who say this is not an approach that will work for a fear aggressive dog--putting the dog in a fearful situation isn't going to help for sure. Then again, if the dog has just learned to be an ass and bully people with his teeth, then Caeser's method isn't quite so inappropriate, IMO. I've dealt with enough dogs who were simply brats that had learned they could use their teeth to get what they want (mainly small dogs) and I own a fear aggressive dog and the training I'd use for the former is vastly different from the training I'd use for the latter. Hence my question if the Caeser or anyone else on that show noted that the dog was fear aggressive vs. having decided it was in control thanks to management by its humans.

 

J.

[Blackdawgs]

Was this dog actually "diagnosed" as being fear aggressive?

 

On the video, no mention was made of a diagnosis or what had/ had not been tried in the past. Actually, there are about 10 recognized types of aggression, and the treatments would not be the same for all types. True dominance aggression is very rare, whereas fear aggression is very common. The veterinary behaviorist would make the diagnosis and then design the treatment, because, as you say, fear aggression would be treated differently than dominance aggression. One of the criticisms of CM is that he tends to attribute all dog behaviors to "dominance" and it just isn't that simple.

 

Having said this, in a fear aggressive dog, the aggressive display, itself, can become very reinforcing. The display is a release of tension and it does keep the scarey thing away. The dog may give all sorts of mixed signals, which is why it takes a true expert to sort things out.

[Dixie_Girl]

Okay, it's been long enough that I've forgotten. Was this dog actually "diagnosed" as being fear aggressive? I agree with the posters who say this is not an approach that will work for a fear aggressive dog--putting the dog in a fearful situation isn't going to help for sure. Then again, if the dog has just learned to be an ass and bully people with his teeth, then Caeser's method isn't quite so inappropriate, IMO. I've dealt with enough dogs who were simply brats that had learned they could use their teeth to get what they want (mainly small dogs) and I own a fear aggressive dog and the training I'd use for the former is vastly different from the training I'd use for the latter. Hence my question if the Caeser or anyone else on that show noted that the dog was fear aggressive vs. having decided it was in control thanks to management by its humans.

 

J.

 

 

Actually, this is an important point. My foster (well, guess you can say my dog, since she can't be adopted) Holly bit me several times when I first brought her home. It took a minute for me to step back and realize it wasn't fear, it was, "I don't wanna do this, so I will bite you and you will leave me be" attitude. After that, I literally flooded her with those situations. When she realized that her biting me wasn't deterring the fact that I wanted her to do something and usually ended with her in "doggy jail", she quit. She will mind me quite well now. We have an understanding.

 

OTOH, I have seen CM with truly fear aggresive dogs, and I have seen him sit in a room with this dog and wait the dog out. He has done many shows with fear aggresive dogs and knows there are different ways to handle them.

 

As far as the "poking" and the "shhhttting" goes, it is not some hard poke, it is simply a way to get the dog refocused. And the "shhttting" is really no different than the aaccchhht that I do with my dogs when they are about to do a no-no.

[Smokjbc]

For a dog in a "blind panic", he had no problems zeroing on Cesar's FACE when he decided that he'd had enough. I'm sorry, I don't buy that dog was just scared, biting people had worked before for him and he wasn't about to give it up.

[juliepoudrier]

The dog may give all sorts of mixed signals, which is why it takes a true expert to sort things out.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. I think a person who is knowledgeable and dog savvy could recognize fear aggression without the help of an expert. That's not to say that a treatment plan might best be handled by a vet behaviorist, and I often recommend on this forum that folks seek out a vet behaviorist's help, but I would think that someone who works with dogs day in and day out might be able to recognize different forms of aggression or at least manage and correct it without necessarily having to label it.

 

I call my dog fear aggressive, but perhaps that's not what a behaviorist would diagnose him as. Most of the folks on this forum who have such dogs describe behaviors where the dog becomes aggressive toward, say, another dog and the steps they've taken to enable them to get their dogs out in public around other dogs and the like with the minimum of stress for all involved. My dog is aggressive toward people who try to handle him in certain ways (i.e., reaching for his collar, trying to get a leash on him to take him out if there's been a recent thunderstorm, handling for vet treatments or grooming, etc.), and although he sometimes will have an inappropriate response to something another dog does to him socially (thanks to lack of socialization as a youngster), he's never been a dog that couldn't be taken out in public and walked among humans and other dogs. In fact, he's generally very sociable and friendly (not that I'd put this to the test constantly, but he certainly have traveled to sheepdog trials and mingled with people and dogs there without incident, gone into pet stores, etc. ). Some of this I was able to correct simply by getting him used to the activity (e.g., nail trimming, brushing) while being careful to watch for signs of an impending reaction--always stopping before he felt a need to go into "protect myself" mode, which of course requires being able to read the dog very closely. Over time I could do more and more. Some of it has just been pure management (don't try to get him out of a crate if a thunderstorm has just passed through, though there is some flexibilty with this, muzzle him at the vet and do all the actual handling myself there), and so on. Would Caeser's approach to the dog in the video have worked with my dog? Probably not, though I have to say that if Farleigh has a muzzle on, he's smart enough to know there's no point in going after a person, like the dog in the video did. In the end, though, the label doesn't matter so much (to me) as figuring out how to enable the dog to cope with the problems and learn to manage the dog so everyone is as "happy" as possible.

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

Does the cause of the aggression matter near as much as in treating it?

 

I've used both approaches, those like CM and those like VS over the years. I also am willing to deal with very aggressive dogs, both human aggression and dog aggression. I will say that after changing to techniques more like VS over the years I have had fewer occurances of aggression of any type. Additionally, those methods are far more user friendly and less likely to get people bitten.

[Jedismom]

I don't have cable any more so maybe Victoria S. has branched out in the past year. I've seen her work with very animal aggressive dogs, but never with any that were anywhere near as people aggressive as some of the ones Cesar has taken on.

 

This past weekends episode with V.S. dealt with a dog and people aggressive pekingese. The dog had bitten around six people, one was a little girl's face.

[Shetlander]

This past weekends episode with V.S. dealt with a dog and people aggressive pekingese. The dog had bitten around six people, one was a little girl's face.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be bitten by any dog, even a Peke and certainly he is lawsuit waiting to happen. But that isn't on the level of some of the extremely dangerous 40, 50, 60+ lb dogs I've seen on Cesar's show. I might even be comfortable taking on a Peke.

[bcnewe2]

I watched a small portion of VS this weekend with the aggressive pk.

I felt she was bullying the male owner into doing more than he was willing to do, then acting all happy about it because she got him to commit to more than he wanted to do. I didn't watch more than that....

VS certainly uses positive methods with the animals but not with the humans attched. I'd prefer to see her use the same methods with both humans and dogs. How else can you be commited to learning with only positive methods.

 

Some people aren't meant to own dogs, some don't find that out till after they get one. I'm sorry but if I wasn't a dog person and a dog was making my life miseralbe then I'd place that dog and move on. CM at least helps the people to understand where they might have gone wrong without all the guilt. I don't need sugar coating but if someone came at my DH like VS does, he would not be climbing on board for very long. Probably only as long as the tv equipment was there. Then he'd off and walk away.

[Maralynn]

I watched a small portion of VS this weekend with the aggressive pk.

I felt she was bullying the male owner into doing more than he was willing to do, then acting all happy about it because she got him to commit to more than he wanted to do. I didn't watch more than that....

VS certainly uses positive methods with the animals but not with the humans attched. I'd prefer to see her use the same methods with both humans and dogs. How else can you be commited to learning with only positive methods.

 

Some people aren't meant to own dogs, some don't find that out till after they get one. I'm sorry but if I wasn't a dog person and a dog was making my life miseralbe then I'd place that dog and move on. CM at least helps the people to understand where they might have gone wrong without all the guilt. I don't need sugar coating but if someone came at my DH like VS does, he would not be climbing on board for very long. Probably only as long as the tv equipment was there. Then he'd off and walk away.

 

I thought the same thing once when I watched an episode!! VS was all over the husband for not helping more with the dogs. He wasn't really into dogs and was reluctant to help because he didn't want his wife bring home more (she was already 2 dogs over the limit they'd agreed on in the beginning). Sheesh, I'd be happy that my SO was humoring me. I wouldn't expect them to be taking responsibility for the care and training.

[Debbie Meier]

I felt she was bullying the male owner into doing more than he was willing to do, then acting all happy about it because she got him to commit to more than he wanted to do. I didn't watch more than that....

VS certainly uses positive methods with the animals but not with the humans attched. I'd prefer to see her use the same methods with both humans and dogs. How else can you be commited to learning with only positive methods.

 

 

Didn't see it, but your description sounds like she was trying to get the owner to do something when confronted, then when he did then she would use positive reinforcement to reward the try. It's possible that she was trying to break a habit of passiveness and avoidence on behalf of the owner which would be the first step in getting the owner to take charge of the situation with the dog.

 

Deb

[herdcentral]

For a dog in a "blind panic", he had no problems zeroing on Cesar's FACE when he decided that he'd had enough. I'm sorry, I don't buy that dog was just scared, biting people had worked before for him and he wasn't about to give it up.

 

Yes but did he bite because he was afraid, found it worked and continued to bite?

 

Trouble is it is hard to know from a small clip what the whole story was. My fear aggressive dog would usually only bite once the strangers back was turned, she would aim for the back of the legs or a retreating butt and then retreat herself fast.

 

But this dog was cornered and did not have this opportunity. I am not sure what mine would have done if cornered and held by a stranger in the early stages. She may have just fought tooth and nail to get away.

 

I did once have a young dog that snapped at my face because she didnt like what I was doing and a good slap sorted her out and she went on to be a terrific dog. But she defintely wasnt fearful.

 

The whole scenario didnt look good with a dog kept prisoner in a basement or whatever, probably enough to send any dog slightly loopy. I really dont understand some people.