Scooter was a dream dog this week

[bc4ever]

I posted a few weeks ago voicing my concerns about my brother and his family and two dogs coming in from Colorado for Thanksgiving week.

 

Well, I needn't have worried. Scooter got along great with the two dogs--no fighting, no posturing. Played with the kids. Sat patiently while the two year old petted and played with him. Greeted everyone politely. Curled up next to them and slept at their feet.

 

He did however pee twice in the house, both times near my 30 something year old niece. I cleaned it up and we didn't get overly excited about it.

 

Thanksgiving dinner went off without a hitch. No begging at the table. He never does. After dinner we were sitting around the dining room table playing a game when all of a sudden my niece let out a yell. Scooter had bitten her on the hand--not a nip, a bite. He drew blood. Apparently (I wasn't in the room at the time) Scooter had gotten a hold of a baseball cap and had brought it in to the dining room. Someone told him to leave it, and my niece put her hand down to pet him, planning to ease him away from the hat so she could get it. That's when he bit her.

 

DH was furious and threw him in the room upstairs and left him there for a few hours "to teach him a lesson." He's going to "teach that dog not to do that!" Not with that attitude he isn't. He's never taken any interest in teaching him anything else in the four years we've had him. We were both shocked and upset that Scooter would do such a thing, seemingly out of the blue. My nephew said he showed no signs that he was about to bite before hand. No growling. Nothing. He's not normally a resource guarder--we can take food, toys, etc. from him without any fear of being bitten. Put a real damper on the rest of the evening. She seems to be okay--shaken up and in pain, but otherwise fine. We felt so sorry and embarrassed for what happened.

 

Later, DH took Scooter out on a leash for the last time for the night. My niece and I were standing in the kitchen talking when they came back in and he started barking, pulling on the leash and trying to get at her.

 

They're leaving tomorrow around noon. To say it's been a crazy week would be an understatement--I was ready to bite someone. The strange thing is he seemed to be handling it so well. We were so proud of him for the way he behaved all week. Then this.

 

How do I guard against something like that that was so sudden and out of character for him? Is he now to be considered a vicious dog? Not to be trusted? How do I train him not to do something he's never done before and might never do again?

 

He'll be five in a month and I've heard of dogs personalities sometimes changing about then. I hope this isn't the case. He's such a sweet dog. I'm just saddened and puzzled by this incident.

 

Suggestions please.

[mbc1963]

I don't have a lot to offer, but I do feel for you. That's so upsetting and it upends your view of your dog.

 

I strongly doubt Scooter gave no warning before the bite. I bet if you saw him, you'd have picked up on behavior that showed reluctance, fear, and/or protection of the hat ("toy"). My dog (mercifully) has never bitten anyone, but sometimes when people come too close, too fast for his comfort, he'll jump back with a scary warning bark. I will tell people, "Oh, it's too much. He's going to bark at you," and they keep moving forward hands outstretched, because they don't read scared-dog signals very well - understandable, if they've never had a dog like mine.

 

My dog is a resource guarder - not from me (ever!), but if my sister visits, I have to "train" Buddy to let her take a toy to play with him. So, that could be hidden and only come out with strangers.

 

(Very interesting on his peeing around this niece, twice. I'm wondering if she's pregnant and has a smell that scared Scooter?)

 

Anyway, a post-mortem on the scene probably isn't going to be much help; you'll never get to go back and study what happened. Best wishes in reestablishing your normal bond to Scooter. Great sympathy.

 

Mary

[kelpiegirl]

You know, as I get older, and more entrenched in the dog life style- you know, spending lots of time with dogs (more than with people in some cases), I have come to learn that no dog is 100% trustable. Some may be. But, I chose to err on the side of caution, and prevent, rather than react. It's a lot to ask dogs to handle strange people in the house, and then, have those strangers behave like they are one of the pack, if you know what I mean.

 

It happened. Nothing to do about that, but what you can do, is prevent this in the future- and do not allow your dogs to be unsupervised, with strangers. When you are getting food ready, or that sort of thing, keep him with you, and instruct everyone to ignore the dogs. I some times use the word "shy", as people seem to get that better- they think of shy children, and how you can't push yourself on them. Also, dogs many times prefer quiet, so a nice crate, with something to chew, will probably trump keeping tabs on myriad visitors...

[RoseAmy]

Well I'm truly sorry for all of this and it sure can be upsetting.

 

That said, I can say I've heard of this sort of thing happening many times..In fact our neigbors dog bit a relative at a family gathering after having spent the day socializing with everyone.

 

Gatherings with many people can be very upsetting/exciting/whatever for dogs. With so much going on you can not be watching a dogs behavior OR the behavior of your guests 100% of the time. Therefore I personally never allow my dogs no matter how well mannered to attend such functions. They stay safety in their crates in an out of the way place.

[urge to herd]

I'm so sorry this happened, what a damper to throw on your holiday. I do agree w/Mary, that Scooter was probably showing some signs of stress and your nephew and niece and whoever just didn't recognize them.

 

Now you have information that Scooter doesn't do well with visitors who stay for a while. Your family were there for several days, right? That's a lot of activity and commotion, I'd be snappish myself.

 

As Kelpiegirl suggests, limit his interactions in the future. Get him used to being in his crate or a quiet room for a couple hours at a time when you have visitors. And direct the interactions he does have, so that people/kids/other dogs aren't all rushing around willy nilly. Border collies tend to be very orderly dogs, they don't care for what they perceive as chaos.

 

I hope your niece is recovered from the bite soon. A bite to the hand can be quite painful, there are a LOT of nerve endings there. You might want to talk with DH and get clear what you're going to do, as a family, to make sure this doesn't happen again. Wait until you can both be calm about it.

 

Ruth

[Liz P]

It was not out of the blue. Scooter's house was invaded by an entire pack of humans and dogs, putting him under a lot of stress (even if he did not show it outwardly until the bite). Then your niece leaned over him and tried to take the hat from him (rude/threatening in dog culture). The bite was not justified, but it was predictable and very understandable. No dog is 100% trustworthy or immune to acting out in a stressful situation.

[sandyleew]

I am not at all surprised that your niece was bitten. I do not allow anyone but myself handle the type of situation that your niece was trying to handle. She should have come and got you and told you he had the hat. I would never try to manage someone else's dog in that way. As the others have said, I keep my dogs put away in another room when I can not be supervising. It was probably a very stressful time for poor Scooter and that incident just put him over the top.

[ejano]

He's a good dog who was under a great deal of stress...invaded by strange people and dogs of all sizes. Your niece trying to take the hat from him was the final straw. Any dog biting a person for any reason (other than self defense if being mistreated) is unacceptable but sometimes, as in this case, understandable. If she'd been more doggy aware, she'd have realized that wasn't a good idea to take the hat from him after "someone" -not his handler - told him to leave it. He'd already exhibited some signs of nervousness around this person and it was simply the last straw. He's not changing into some vicious dog - he's a good guy who had a bad day. The biggest relief is that he didn't snap at the two year old. It's never a good idea to mix BCs and babies.

 

As for DH, well, he was having a bad day too....probably for the same reasons. . Give them both a nice long walk and promise them peace and quiet for Christmas. .

 

Liz

[G. Festerling]

Sure, lots of stress, you felt obviously (by your statement) like biting someones head off (yes, I know figure of speech).

But I also have to agree that I don't trust any animal 100%. But then again, I don't trust any human 100% either.

Simply because the rules and interactions change with the change of place, time, people, emotions etc. To me it is the mix.

Get the two that don't get along in the mix and an accident is about to happen.

My general rule is that if there is a lot going on, and my attention can not be somewhat steady, I will not let a lot of animals mix with lots of people or other animals anymore. Took me a while to learn that and to admit that many of these situations are to be my chore and managed by me since I choose to have the animals around.

[bcnewe2]

I sure can understand what you and Scooter have been dealing with. I'm going to offer another thought. Did Scooter bite meaning to grab the hat back? We call it a re-grip here. I have 2 dogs that will do it. If you're playing ball of "stick" with them as they hand it back to you they can also reach out and try to grab it back. If you get your hand in the way it would def. break skin. Not intentionaly but still a bite all the same.

Then when your DH went out with Scooter being p.oed he gave Scooter a little bit more of "what for", came in with stress on the leash, your niece was nervous so Scooter reacted to the whole thing as if there was a problem.

Just a different take on things....

 

With that said, I've been gone almost a month now, staying at my Mom's and a good friends alternately. I have Mick and Dew with me. They have spent more time in the car or blocked off in a room than they care to think about. They will both be happy to get back home. Wed. I took my son (17 years old) to the mall and left the dogs in the car. When we came back out Mick was in the front seat. He didn't not want to go in the back at all. He growled and aimed his agression at Dew but I could tell that if my DS had went ahead and drug him out to put him in the back seat Mick would have snapped at him. I chalked it off to stress and being tried of being shuffled aruond. I sure don't label him a visious dog towards humans. That said, I kept them in my car during the Thanksgiving party, no sence in stressing them more with lots of strangers. The car is like thier gaint crate, they feel safe in it. I feel bad for having them spend so much time in their "crate" but I also feel it's better for all concerned.

 

Relax, let Scooter relax then re-evaluate the situation.

[desertranger]

Everyone has pretty much said it. My only comment is DH who tried to discipline Scooter with a method that doesn't work. On of the biggest problems I have is with family members who won't help in training. DW gets upset because Jin has never not learned to not jump on her. He doesn't jump on anyone else and she won't take the time to teach him not to do that. So who's at fault?

 

As hard as we try dogs are not 100%.

[Debbie Meier]

He did however pee twice in the house, both times near my 30 something year old niece. I cleaned it up and we didn't get overly excited about it.

 

Thanksgiving dinner went off without a hitch. No begging at the table. He never does. After dinner we were sitting around the dining room table playing a game when all of a sudden my niece let out a yell. Scooter had bitten her on the hand--not a nip, a bite. He drew blood. Apparently (I wasn't in the room at the time) Scooter had gotten a hold of a baseball cap and had brought it in to the dining room. Someone told him to leave it, and my niece put her hand down to pet him, planning to ease him away from the hat so she could get it. That's when he bit her.

 

 

Was the niece that was bitten and the niece that was pee'd next to one and the same?

 

If it was the same niece it sounds as if Scooter was asserting some dominance, first by marking his territory to her then by making a final point when she invaded his personal space. To me the marking (pee'ing) could have been a big clue as to how he would interact with her, think about it, if a male shows another dog their territory via a mark and the other dog invades it what do expect the outcome to be?

 

Just some thoughts...

 

Deb

[Stanzi_and_Molly]

You know, as I get older, and more entrenched in the dog life style- you know, spending lots of time with dogs (more than with people in some cases), I have come to learn that no dog is 100% trustable. Some may be. But, I chose to err on the side of caution, and prevent, rather than react. It's a lot to ask dogs to handle strange people in the house, and then, have those strangers behave like they are one of the pack, if you know what I mean.

 

It happened. Nothing to do about that, but what you can do, is prevent this in the future- and do not allow your dogs to be unsupervised, with strangers. When you are getting food ready, or that sort of thing, keep him with you, and instruct everyone to ignore the dogs. I some times use the word "shy", as people seem to get that better- they think of shy children, and how you can't push yourself on them. Also, dogs many times prefer quiet, so a nice crate, with something to chew, will probably trump keeping tabs on myriad visitors...

I agree with Kelpiegirl. I think that whole thing was way too much stimulation. My little BC was quite messed up over me getting ready for Thanksgiving dinner. It was a relief later to know that I didn't have to announce, "don't pet the dog." Found out later that they couldn't come since they unfortunately caught some bug. Mine is shy, and noise sensitive. There are places on her body that she does not like to be touched. Dogs, I know do react to changes in the household.

[pammyd]

I feel for you

and I agree with most of what has been said. The dog was perfect and amazing - betther than you expected - so he had to deal with more and more

If he had been a pest to start with you would have given him times out and watched him more

Prob just too much happening - but you now know how to handle the situation next time

[BCjetta]

My oldest one did a very similar thing last year the day after my wedding. There had been lots of people over at my parents house etc. My parents had some friends staying there and they were all sitting at the table for lunch. Jetta walked by behind one of the chairs and one of the ladies reached back to pet her. Instantly and with no warning Jetta bit her fairly bad in the arm and then went all freaky. My parents stuck her downstairs and she kept barking etc. Later when she saw the lady again, she was growling/barking etc the whole time she could see her. My parents thought it was totally out of the blue that she bit this lady....however...

 

12 years previously Jetta met this lady and never really liked her. She was a bit nervous/suspicious of her...no clue why as the lady is an animal lover. Secondly, Jetta is fear aggressive and can be reactive. I think what happened is she was walking along and then out of the blue a hand was on her of a person she doesn't trust and it suprised her so she reacted (stronger than she needed to). I don't know whether she meant to break skin or whether she misjudged.

 

Did Scooter give any signs previously that he wasn't 100% comfortable with this particular person?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I am sorry to hear this happened. But as everyone else has said, I don't believe he's a vicious dog. No way. He was just over his threshold, stressed and a stranger tried to take something away from him. These things happen. Not that you want it to. But it was a learning experience and now you know to better manage the situation. There were likely warning signs that no one noticed.

 

Daisy is fearful and reactive and she bit one of my cousins last summer. We had been driving for two days already, so I'm sure she was out of sorts. It was dark and there were a lot of "strangers" when we got to my uncles cottage. Before I took her out of the car, I told every single one of them to totally ignore her, not to try and pet her, she is nervous of new people and needs to warm up at her own pace, I said we'd work on it in the morning. I told them she would likely bite too, to drive the point home. Later, one of my cousins (15 year old male) came running around the corner, in the pitch black, stuck his hand in her face and she bit him. The next day he tried to get attitude with me about my dog biting him and I flat out told him that under no circumstances was it her fault, or mine for that matter. He did everything I told him not to do and I warned him she might bite if scared. I told him that not every dog is "bomb" proof and that he should really listen to the dogs owner before acting like a sh*t. By the end of the day she was friends with everyone except him, I wonder why?

[maryemccomb]

I am not a Border Collie expert by any means. What I know I've learned from intensive research and work with a trainer since I got a little gal, Rose, with lots of baggage. I have had similar experiences with Rose. She bit me in the hand once when I tried to take a bone away. Not a nip, a painful bite. I realize that I moved too fast toward her, didn't give her a substitute behavior. Plus there was a stranger present, so Rose was determined to keep the bone. She has snarled and nipped at two children, one just yesterday. The kid was doing nothing. I had Rose on a leash (probably part of it). Putting it together, I think the child (at eye level w/ Rose) was staring at Rose and she didn't like it.

What am I learning about this dear little dog and how to deal with her behavior? 1. We must work HARD and CONSISTENTLY with basic manners. 2. I MUST not let her near small children. And once a child has squealed, that's it---in Rose's mind the child is something to go after. I don't know whether they're "prey" or "lambs" or what, but she can't be trusted. It's hard because Rose is cute and appealing. 3. I must watch her with adults who don't know how to move around dogs or who are Cesar Millan fans and try to be "alpha dog" with her, so they don't move too quickly, or try to take things from her.

 

My friends remark on the vast improvements in Rose's manners in the few months I've had her. I love her dearly, and keep working with her on her behavior. I know I need to make a commitment with agility or sheepherding or something to use up her boundless energy.But I know that she is never going to be an "easy" dog and that I have to be vigilant. It's hard after I've had a series of other herding breeds who were gentle and sweet. I don't know if this helps. I've been there, with total disillusionment and disappointment with Rose, but I've accepted who she is and take the necessary precautions, while continuously working on her behavior issues.

[bc4ever]

Brother and family left yesterday afternoon. Scooter slept most of the rest of the day. Brother called today and my niece's hand is fine, thank heavens.

 

We've had guests stay before, but not for so long a time, and not with their dogs.

 

Looking back at it now, I'm amazed he lasted as long as he did without snapping. We put beds in the area he usually plays ball, moved his food and water dishes, completely changed his whole routine. He likes order and routine. It was noisy and chaotic most of the time they were here. I did put him in his room for a while each day for some down time and a nap (not as punishment) and made sure to keep the other dogs out of the room at all times so he would still have one area that hadn't been "violated."

 

Earlier in the day Thanksgiving, one of the kids was playing with Scooter, putting the hat on his head, letting him wear it around. Maybe he thought it was his new toy. Maybe my niece moved too quickly and it frightened him. I watched him carefully for signs of distress but missed the significance of the marking behavior near my niece. I assumed it had something to do with the visiting dogs, not her. She's the only one he never really warmed up to. I'm also wondering if he picked out the weakest member of the pack and zeroed in on them, which certainly would have been my niece.

 

Things have calmed down. DH has already forgotten about "teaching him a lesson" and is back to playing only. It was a learning experience for me however and I know now how not to set him up for failure next time. (Hopefully, there won't be a next time). This past week about wiped me out! My sister who lives a few miles from here has already said she'll have Christmas. I didn't say no!

 

Thank you to all who responded. I was so distraught about the whole incident, the first thing I did when everyone went to bed was turn to my Border Collie family for advice.

 

(A cousin of mine who has dogs suggested I shoot Scooter. Once a dog bites, that's it.) I found your advice more helpful!

 

Pam

[mbc1963]

Pam...

 

Glad the heap of emotion is over. It's hard, you're so worried right after something like this happens!

 

I've learned with my Buddy that when he does something (usually going after another dog), that I get an education, but the dog himself is exactly the dog he was before. I just didn't know him as well as I do after the incident.

 

Hoping Scooter gets back on an even keel now.

 

Mary

[bc4ever]

I've learned with my Buddy that when he does something (usually going after another dog), that I get an education, but the dog himself is exactly the dog he was before. I just didn't know him as well as I do after the incident.

Mary

Never thought of it that way, but it's so true. I think I'll print that out and hang it on the fridge for the next time he does something that surprises me!