Barbie Board?

[jdarling]

Run for cover? Yes, Patty. That's exactly what I am known for doing. You're so smart.

 

Actually, this thread was a thought that I came across when a newbie came on saying that they were going to get a pup from a particular breeder, and everyone told that person, "That wouldn't be my choice ... they breed for conformation ...", etc. So I was thinking what do the Barbie Collie people say when a newbie comes on one of their boards and announces they are going to get a dog from a reputable working breeder. What excuses do they steer them away with? What arguments could they possibly have? But, as threads often do, this one went a different direction -- one I wasn't intending -- but that's ok. It's the nature of the beast. I just didn't have anything to say, so I sat here.

 

If you're talking about my use of the term "Barbie Collie" ... here's 50 cents (maybe it's $1 now ... nevermind ... here's my cell phone) ... call someone who cares. I've put Barbies on stock. I've seen what they don't do. They are not the same breed of dog I own. No matter how politically correct someone says this, it isn't going to change that fact.

 

Running for cover right here in my chair,

Jodi

[Pat W.]

In defense of the agility competitor, we are not into AKC for the most part and definately not into AKC breeders athough there are some that go there and compete in USDAA. I met my first lemon (palamino?) border collie baby, I have to say Im not impressed he really didnt look like a border collie. The owners have two other border collies a Slate and a trad blk/wht. First time I saw the slate I thought it was a beardie. A lot of handlers here on the east coast are looking more and more to the working/herding lines for their next partner, when they are not looking at rescue. As for other boards pop over to Pro dog some time and check out the whole "My Philosophy on Border Collies" thread...saying you're against showing border collies there is like chumming shark infested waters, so I wear my kevlar suit on a regular basis

[Lewie'sMom]

Jodi, what I object to is the tone of your original post. It sounds condescending to those who breed for conformation and the dogs that are produced. While you may not agree with their reasons, mocking any group or individual with an imaginary conversation is petty and juvenile.

 

I reread your first post and with your explaination, understand now what you were trying to convey. Originally, all I got out of it was sarcasm but I can see now where you were headed. However, I don’t think I’m the only one who thought it was a bit harsh.

 

And, why do you resort to sarcasm? You’re response to me, “You’re so smart”, is unnecessary. I enjoy a healthy debate as much as anyone but I prefer to keep it civilized. I apologize for misunderstanding your first post but I object to your method of communication.

 

*edited to correct my grammer

[SS Cressa]

Cressa, I'm glad you have a sense of humor -- she even has bedroom eyes in that picture! And she is a cutie pie.

 

;)Well it was one of the worst camping weekends. The tent blew over twice(once when the dogs were still in there and Cressa is pretty sensitive about that stuff even my rock soild dog, Troy was shook up) It rain and we got soaked in the tent. This was when I was waiting in the x-pen with the tarp up for my ride who was 2+hours late since it kept on drizzling. Normally Cressa isn't the cuddle bug type but she was wet, cold and tired after playing.

 

*evil grin She didn't know I snap a picture of her cuddling. heheheh

[Laurelin]

In defense of the agility competitor, we are not into AKC for the most part and definately not into AKC breeders athough there are some that go there and compete in USDAA. I met my first lemon (palamino?) border collie baby, I have to say Im not impressed he really didnt look like a border collie. The owners have two other border collies a Slate and a trad blk/wht. First time I saw the slate I thought it was a beardie. A lot of handlers here on the east coast are looking more and more to the working/herding lines for their next partner, when they are not looking at rescue. As for other boards pop over to Pro dog some time and check out the whole "My Philosophy on Border Collies" thread...saying you're against showing border collies there is like chumming shark infested waters, so I wear my kevlar suit on a regular basis

 

I thought it was interesting that thread popped up right at the same time this one did. I only usually lurk prodog but I had to get into that one.

[SoloRiver]

Oh man, I just love these people. "I don't herd because it's too expensive and requires too much travel but I should be able to breed my dogs anyway." Please. Like showing is free? Gimme a break.

 

Whatever, like I said before, they can breed fluffbutts until the cows come home, I could care less -- just call a spade a spade. They aren't Border Collies. If they are, then the name "Border Collie" is basically meaningless.

[jdarling]

Patty,

 

I agree. Accusing me of trying to "stir up a hornet's nest" ... "mayhem and destruction" ... and being "petty" ... "juvenile" ... is a much better form of communication, and one that is sure to spur healthy, civilized debate. Do you have a book out?

 

Jodi

[Lewie'sMom]

Patty,

 

I agree. Accusing me of trying to "stir up a hornet's nest" ... "mayhem and destruction" ... and being "petty" ... "juvenile" ... is a much better form of communication, and one that is sure to spur healthy, civilized debate. Do you have a book out?

 

Jodi

 

 

A book on...?

 

edit: Now, perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions but "Do you have a book out?" sounds like sarcasm to me. What is it that you're asking?

[SoloRiver]

Hahahahahahaha, I just got to this one (from a Lassie collie person):

 

"However, while agility is a sport, it is based off of real work. A dogs performance in agility proves that he would be able to go over a fence if need be on the farm. If he needed to get to a lost lamb that happened to be stuck somewhere, would he be able to go across the fallen tree to get there? It does prove a dog in some ways."

 

That is just too good.

 

I also love the claim that one person has seen "plenty of young conformation dogs" do 800 yard outruns or move thousands of sheep. Where is this happening? Will someone please go video it and then post it on YouTube? Otherwise I'll have to consult Snopes about this urban legend.

 

Seriously, what is the point of having conversations about Border Collies with people who either (1) must be pathological liars or (2) are so deluded that they are not credible witnesses?

[Laurelin]

Hahahahahahaha, I just got to this one (from a Lassie collie person):

 

"However, while agility is a sport, it is based off of real work. A dogs performance in agility proves that he would be able to go over a fence if need be on the farm. If he needed to get to a lost lamb that happened to be stuck somewhere, would he be able to go across the fallen tree to get there? It does prove a dog in some ways."

 

That is just too good.

 

I also love the claim that one person has seen "plenty of young conformation dogs" do 800 yard outruns or move thousands of sheep. Where is this happening? Will someone please go video it and then post it on YouTube? Otherwise I'll have to consult Snopes about this urban legend.

 

Seriously, what is the point of having conversations about Border Collies with people who either (1) must be pathological liars or (2) are so deluded that they are not credible witnesses?

 

Melanie you should come help us.

[jenkshipley]

[quote name=

Whatever, like I said before, they can breed fluffbutts until the cows come home, I could care less -- just call a spade a spade. They aren't Border Collies. If they are, then the name "Border Collie" is basically meaningless.

 

Unfortunately anyone who wants to breed can go right ahead and do so and they are going to do just that. What is a shame is that the AKC is allowed to adopt the name of any breed it chooses to accept when it is going to end up completely altering the build, purpose, look and abilities of the breed.

 

Didn't the Jack Russell terrier people end up renaming their own dogs when the AKC adopted their breed? Something is wrong with this picture....

 

Let the AKC accept any breed they want. Just make them change the name of the existing breed when they do so.

 

Jen

Flute, Enna, Fever and Lava

[SoloRiver]

Melanie you should come help us.

 

Heh, no thanks. I don't need the elevated blood pressure. You're doing a great job though!

 

I guess it's really hard for people in other breeds to understand. I mean, in a lot of other breeds, selecting for the show ring and especially for sports constitutes a MAJOR improvement over what most breeders are doing. As much as I hate the idea of Border Collies bred for sports, if someone was breeding Sport Papillons or Sport Pomeranians I'd totally be interested. Breeding Pomeranians for agility would be such an improvement over breeding for conformation.

[JaderBug]

Didn't the Jack Russell terrier people end up renaming their own dogs when the AKC adopted their breed? Something is wrong with this picture....

 

Let the AKC accept any breed they want. Just make them change the name of the existing breed when they do so.

 

The Jack Russell Terriers were able to keep their name- when the AKC decided to take over this terrier breed, the JRTCA fought them, suing them for the right to the namesake. They won, which is why there is the Jack Russell Terrier and the Parson Russell Terrier- essentially, the Barbie Collie of Border Collies.

 

I also love the claim that one person has seen "plenty of young conformation dogs" do 800 yard outruns or move thousands of sheep. Where is this happening? Will someone please go video it and then post it on YouTube? Otherwise I'll have to consult Snopes about this urban legend.

 

oh my doG I about spit my drink all over the computer screen! I don't think their short little legs could carry them 800 yards, let alone bring sheep back with them on the return!

[ShoresDog]

As much as I hate the idea of Border Collies bred for sports, if someone was breeding Sport Papillons or Sport Pomeranians I'd totally be interested.

Actually, here in San Diego I did meet a couple of paps that were bred for agility, and they were very nice sporty dogs. If I ever need a small dog, I'm getting a pap.

[border_collie_crazy]

lol, ya, I about gave up on that prodog thread(Im Cali there), they just dont get it, and the claims are just getting so out there that I cant even figer out how to respond! of coarse then you have all the other breed people comming to the defense of those 2 barbie breeders, because to them those 2 are the BEST type of BC breeders ever (they have actually said that on other threads)

[Jedismom]

I was curious so I searched and found that Pro Dog thread. I read through all the pages. Although it made me cringe I learned something from it. They cannot possibly have the same dogs we do. For example, you cannot look at Jedi and only see his looks. When he talks to you with his eyes, how can you possibly notice that perhaps he doesn't have the appropriate spacing between them? The passion on that thread is for something so drastically different than what we have here that it's scary. Nothing I read there placed value on the border collies problem solving and independent thinking ability, which is their very essence. Biddability and looks were praised, and perhaps drive for the sports dogs. Not the relationship. The true border collie moves us to write essays in their honor, as Melanie and others have done. I hope we never lose that. It would be a huge loss.

[Maralynn]

I was curious so I searched and found that Pro Dog thread. I read through all the pages. Although it made me cringe I learned something from it. They cannot possibly have the same dogs we do. For example, you cannot look at Jedi and only see his looks. When he talks to you with his eyes, how can you possibly notice that perhaps he doesn't have the appropriate spacing between them? The passion on that thread is for something so drastically different than what we have here that it's scary. Nothing I read there placed value on the border collies problem solving and independent thinking ability, which is their very essence. Biddability and looks were praised, and perhaps drive for the sports dogs. Not the relationship. The true border collie moves us to write essays in their honor, as Melanie and others have done. I hope we never lose that. It would be a huge loss.

 

I found it, too. I got the feeling that they had never really felt the partnership one can truly have with a dog pursuing a common goal. They will never see the satisfaction I see when Missy brings her sheep to the gate each morning and puts them away each night. They talk about working dogs, but don't understand what work, work done out of necessity for the sole sake of acomplishing a job that needs doing, is.

[JohnLloydJones]

Although it made me cringe I learned something from it. They cannot possibly have the same dogs we do. For example, you cannot look at Jedi and only see his looks. When he talks to you with his eyes, how can you possibly notice that perhaps he doesn't have the appropriate spacing between them?

They live in a different world; one I sort of understand in an academic way, but is nonetheless, totally alien to me. I was brought up by a BCx; I treasure the rapport between myself and my dogs. The way we communicate -- it's a "secret" language that few non-BC people understand. It's not just that they understand most of what I say -- it's the subtle body language that is the core. My wife, who is not a dog person, has no idea what is going on.

[SoloRiver]

I wouldn't be sure they don't have a true rapport with their dogs. There are many people out there who have extremely strong bonds with dogs that are "only" lapdogs and housepets. I agree that having a working relationship with a dog is truly remarkable, but I can't say that it is quantitatively better than the relationships that other people have with non-working dogs.

 

They just have different priorities, and there's nothing you can do about that. I think their definition of "Border Collie" is fundamentally flawed, but otherwise I support whatever they want to do with their personal dogs. I don't consider their dogs Border Collies, but I'm sure they don't much care what I think.

[JohnLloydJones]

There are many people out there who have extremely strong bonds with dogs that are "only" lapdogs and housepets.

True, but people who value their dogs firstly by appearance, are probably not in that group.

[SoloRiver]

Yeah, but I wouldn't be so sure that they do. I think Border Collies are defined by their working ability, and should only be bred for working ability, and working ability is how I evalute the quality of a Border Collie as a representative of its breed. But of my three dogs, the one who is by far the most beloved and valuable to me is the worst working dog of the bunch. And if God came down and told me that two of them had to go, he would not be one of them. I think a lot of people who use their dogs for real work have a beloved old dog who is either no longer or never was all that much on sheep. I am willing to believe that conformation folks are able to love their dogs for themselves, even if they want to breed for pretty.

[ejano]

I found it, too. I got the feeling that they had never really felt the partnership one can truly have with a dog pursuing a common goal. They will never see the satisfaction I see when Missy brings her sheep to the gate each morning and puts them away each night. They talk about working dogs, but don't understand what work, work done out of necessity for the sole sake of acomplishing a job that needs doing, is.

 

The thing that continues to intrigue me is that everything and anything I do, all of the BCs we've owned are interested in and want to help, in whatever I'm doing, particularly outside chores, though I do remember explaining to Lucky how to knit one, purl two , -- this is the partnership thing I got in trouble for suggesting in another post....It isn't just curiosity that brings them to your side, truly believe that the Border Collie breed simply excels at being a helpmate in what ever you choose too do....even digging a hole for a shrub they are right there, ready and willing to put their energy to the job.

 

In defense of the "Barbie" type collie, I do believe the Scotty came out of the pet lines -- he was over-sized, over 60 pounds and had a broad face that I thought was noble. He was also the smartest dog I ever met in terms of language and obedience. He would learn a word a day - I wouldn't have traded him for anything.

 

 

Liz

[Root Beer]

....even digging a hole for a shrub they are right there, ready and willing to put their energy to the job.

 

Or their ball!! :D

[Maralynn]

The thing that continues to intrigue me is that everything and anything I do, all of the BCs we've owned are interested in and want to help, in whatever I'm doing, particularly outside chores, though I do remember explaining to Lucky how to knit one, purl two , -- this is the partnership thing I got in trouble for suggesting in another post....It isn't just curiosity that brings them to your side, truly believe that the Border Collie breed simply excels at being a helpmate in what ever you choose too do....even digging a hole for a shrub they are right there, ready and willing to put their energy to the job.

 

In defense of the "Barbie" type collie, I do believe the Scotty came out of the pet lines -- he was over-sized, over 60 pounds and had a broad face that I thought was noble. He was also the smartest dog I ever met in terms of language and obedience. He would learn a word a day - I wouldn't have traded him for anything.

Liz

 

I don't really care what "type" of dog you end up with. I do take issue with the reasoning behind breeding a type. It's not that Barbie type dogs can't make wonderful pets and companions - I'm sure they can. I do take issue with the assumption that the Barbie type dogs are best and truest form of BC and that "working" agility, etc, etc, are at least equal to stockwork. Last time I checked, agility could be skipped if the weather was rainy or downright nasty or if you had a snowstorm. It was not done through briars, tall grass or 800 yards away from the handler. A dog did not have to contend with wiley creatures 3 - 20 times it's size and out think/out manouver them. It was not done for a livelyhood.

 

Yout want to pursue agility, flyball or whatever with your BC? great! your dog will have an outlet for it's drive and you'll both have fun doing it. But don't tell me about how it's work that is an equal testing ground for the essence of a Border Collie, because it's not.

[ejano]

I don't really care what "type" of dog you end up with. I do take issue with the reasoning behind breeding a type. It's not that Barbie type dogs can't make wonderful pets and companions - I'm sure they can. I do take issue with the assumption that the Barbie type dogs are best and truest form of BC and that "working" agility, etc, etc, are at least equal to stockwork. Last time I checked, agility could be skipped if the weather was rainy or downright nasty or if you had a snowstorm. It was not done through briars, tall grass or 800 yards away from the handler. A dog did not have to contend with wiley creatures 3 - 20 times it's size and out think/out manouver them. It was not done for a livelyhood.

 

Yout want to pursue agility, flyball or whatever with your BC? great! your dog will have an outlet for it's drive and you'll both have fun doing it. But don't tell me about how it's work that is an equal testing ground for the essence of a Border Collie, because it's not.

 

I agree with you, Maralynn....If you read my note again, perhaps you'll see that I was saying that Border COllies are interested in everything their owner/handler does beyond stock work....and I was just commenting that Scotty was exceptionally good at language and body signals (another Border Collie characteristic) probably because it was the only thing he was allowed to learn in his previous home. His prey drive was nonexistent. He barely chased a ball though he'd tug at the tether ball all day long..

 

I would think that some essential characteristics remain in the Barbie lines and if the lines are kept mostly separate and God forbid, if something catastrophic genetic thing ever happens to the working border collie lines, there'll at least be something to start over with...think I saw something about a woman who was working with AKC bred Cocker Spaniels back to their original task as hunting/retrieving dogs....

 

I don't know where I fit in on these boards, honestly. I'm a farm girl at heart, raised with cows, horses, other various animals, and wonderful herding dogs. I continue to stay with the breed to give rescue dogs a good home -- Scotty was literally taken to the vet to be put down and the vet called rescue because he was a nice dog in an unsuitable home. I do different things with my pups because I don't have any kind of livestock and don't intend to get any. The pups weren't exactly culls from the litter, because there good solid dogs and Brodie especially would make a fine sheep dog, I think. But one was red and one was mostly white, both colors noticeably unpopular with the herding crowd, so they came to us.

 

I joined these boards to ask questions about particular habits and get training tips, which has worked out beautifully and I appreciate all of the helpful comments. Noone has led me wrong yet. But the way people bite and snip at each other makes me want to head over to the other side of the fence.

 

Liz