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I could be wrong so correct me if I am.

E*** ** *** W**** Elijah is competing is USBCHA in open, O****** J*** Flash O’Fire is doing really well in Open. These are the two that I know of but... there could be more. :rolleyes: This is going off what the breeders/owners said. :D One is in CA the other is in England right now.

 

I don't care about kennel names, but could you name a handler? Neither name rings a bell with me. Maybe some other open handler might recognize them, but as far as I know, no *strictly conformation-bred* dogs are running competitively in open (and I'm not including arena trials when I say competitively in open). I wouldn't necessarily trust that the breeder/owner knew what s/he was talking about.

 

And yes it is possible for two working bred dogs to produce a puppy that could be shown in conformation, but those working bred dogs aren't likely to consistently produce the type of dog that could be shown, let alone do well in the show ring. And I'd be willing to bet the the dog from working parents being shown in conformation still doesn't quite look like the purely conformation-bred dogs.

 

J.

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Gordon Watt is one handler and and the only other name I can fine is Molly? or Mary Alice but she sound like a kid? and no I couldn't fine a last name.

 

work a 3rd shift and about to work another 3rd shift tonight and need to sleep... (only had 3 hrs so far)

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I was at a fairly small arena trial some years back when a spectator, who had come to watch her friend's dog being run in Open in sheep (by a Big Hat), proudly announced to me that said AKC-registered dog had "won the National Finals" the previous year. Now, knowing the handler, I knew the dog had done no such thing although I believe the dog had run in the Finals and perhaps acquitted itself reasonably well or maybe admirably.

 

However, a dog can come from solid working lines and be dual-registered AKC. It could have lost its ABCA registration by completing a show championship. It could run very competitively in USBCHA Open/Nursery as an "AKC-registered" dog - but it would still really be a working-bred, ABCA-bred dog - just dual-registered.

 

An awful lot of AKC-registered dogs are just that - dual-registered ABCA/AKC or of partial AKC-parentage but still registered AKC. It is very rare for a dog to come from solid AKC/AU/NZ background and be successful/excel at USBCHA Open/Nursery. It could be fairly common for a dog to come from good working-bred ABCA/ISDS background, be dual-registered AKC, and run successfully with a competent handler in USBCHA Open/Nursery.

 

It's also very easy for someone to claim that so-and-so AKC dog is cleaning up at USBCHA Open/Nursery, but one needs to back up claims with fact and realize that, in fact, many of those dogs are really ABCA/ISDS-working-bred dogs that have been dual-registered or are only a generation or so away from solid working lines.

 

My father was an American the day he got his naturalization papers, but that didn't take away the fact that he was born and bred a German. It's a similar situation with many of these "AKC" dogs from immediate (or almost immediate) ABCA/ISDS heritage.

 

The other aspect is "this is from what the owners/breeders said". Again, I'd like to see facts, not opinion. A lot of dogs are world-beaters in one person's eyes but not in anyone else's.

 

Remember, it's not and should not be the individual dogs but the breeding for other than good working abilities and instincts, and the effect of what that sort of breeding produces, that is being criticized.

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. The difference is just that the instinct has been bred out of them, which is a shame.

 

If the instinct has been bred out then it could be argued if they are indeed Border Collies-hence the term Barbie Collie, looks sorta human, but really isn't.

 

That is why responsible working breeders s/n or sell on NB papers or w/o papers dogs that aren't up to par for work

 

As for the show dogs working USBCHA, I couldn't see if Elijah has run in Open USBCHA trialsw. AKC B course is a miniature version so doen't really count IMHO. Andthe other dog mentioned has health issues so won't be trained as 'promised'

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I was unable to find Merry Russell or any dog named Elijah on the USBCHA Open points list. Looks like Jack Flash is about 75% Barbie and can't find info on the other dog.

 

Melanie, you won't find a dog on the points list if the handler is not a USBCHA member. It doesn't mean that they aren't running in Open.

 

I know a Merry Russell from Wisconsin. She is a nice lady but I don't recall her running dogs in Open. I could be wrong but I thought she was a still a novice handler. As I said, I could be wrong and she could have moved her dogs up this year but 2008/2009 she was running a dog called Jack in Novice/Novice so that would be quite a jump.

 

I agree that the term "Barbie Collie" was clearly coined as a derogatory term for conformation bred dogs. A better term would be "Show Collie" or "Conformation Collie" and "Sport Collie" for dogs bred for agility or flyball.

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Merry Russell just ran Jack at the Crook & Whistle trial in Wisconsin the second weekend of September. One day he was 4th out of 7 dogs and the other day he was 5th out of 7 dogs. Both times they were running in novice.

 

eta: Melanie, I ran in open 3 years but was only a member for one. Never got any points so it didn't matter anyway.

 

Laura

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So Elijah has placed in *novice* at one USBCHA type trial.

But it says he "qualified with multiple placements." That sounds pretty impressive. Oh, wait...there is no such thing as "qualifying" as a USBCHA-type trial. That tells us a lot right there,

A

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I looked at both websites concerning Elijah, and saw nothing concerning USBCHA Open or Nursery, but I could easily have missed something.

 

I also checked out the website for Jack's owner. That dog has achieved his JHD and is apparently going to UK to be trained and trialed by Gordon Watt, according to the website. A JHD isn't much to brag about at all but, if a dog has impressed Gordon Watt, then it sounds like he's a dog with potential. However, not seeing his pedigree would lead me to wonder about his background.

 

There will occasionally be a very good dog from kennel club lines, just like you can have a "cinderella story" racehorse from undistinguished background that excels on the track. But you will be much more likely to be consistent if you breed good-doing dogs to compatible good-doing dogs based on working abilities and instincts, and not just take a chance on getting a good working dog out of unproven parentage. Breeding for the right reasons increases your likelihood of getting dogs with good working abilities; breeding for the wrong reasons decreases your likelihood of getting dogs with good working abilities.

 

edited to add: Sounds like someone was blowing smoke about these kennel club "wunderkind". Very similar to my comments above except that that dog I mentioned was a pretty decent dog.

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Since "collie" is a term meaning "working stockdog", wouldn't it be most appropriate for KC/AKC dogs to be renamed something other than "Border Collie" or "Sport Collie" or "Performance Collie" or "Conformance Collie"?

 

Maybe they should just be called "Barbie Borders" or "Sport Borders" or "Performance Borders" or "Conformance Borders". Since kennel club folks tend to call them "Borders" already, it sounds to me like they would be prime to be renamed "Barbie Borders" or any of the other preferred variations. I prefer "Conformance Borders" since that covers a whole gamut of activities they may be used for other than stockwork.

 

There, I said it, "Barbie".

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Gordon Watt is one handler and and the only other name I can fine is Molly? or Mary Alice but she sound like a kid? and no I couldn't fine a last name.

 

work a 3rd shift and about to work another 3rd shift tonight and need to sleep... (only had 3 hrs so far)

 

I believe you are referring to Molly Wisecarver and her daughter Mary Alice (now 15 I believe). They are among the few who compete successfully in both USBCHA and AKC venues. The dog you are referring to Elijah - was run by Mary Alice at the FTB Ranch trial in July in New Mexico in Novice and did very well in that class.

 

Mary Alice ran another dog Sherman in Open Ranch (I beleieve Sherman may be a former Open dog workig with young handler but I am not sure) each of the 4 days I was at the trial. On the first day - which happened to be her birthday -- she took first place with Sherman over a field that included Alasdair MacRae (running one of his young dogs) and a number of other recognizable names. So she is certainly a capable handler especially for one so young (and also a charming girl that Molly and her husband can be very proud of BTW). I know from her web page that Sherman has also run AKC but I do not know his breeding background.

 

I do know of at least one other AKC dog from one of the kennels mentioned who nearly qualified for USBCHA Nursery Finals last year and was recently moved up to Open. At his first Open trial the dog and first time open handler were one place out of getting National Points for next year. The dog and handler (its his first herding dog) did very well in Pro Novice on the California USBCHA circuit last year and just moved up to Open in July. So it can be done -- but it is clearly a rarity.

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I think SS Cressa just showed how all those rumors about conformation bred dogs running competitively in USBCHA open get started. Someone makes a claim that is unsubstantiated and it gets repeated (and sometimes embellished). Maybe Jack really is an awesome dog. I'd love to see his pedigree. He sure doesn't look like a typical AU/NZ show-bred dog.

 

J.

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Jack's pedigree

 

I think SS Cressa just showed how all those rumors about conformation bred dogs running competitively in USBCHA open get started. Someone makes a claim that is unsubstantiated and it gets repeated (and sometimes embellished). Maybe Jack really is an awesome dog. I'd love to see his pedigree. He sure doesn't look like a typical AU/NZ show-bred dog.

 

J.

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Well I adopted a young conformation collie bred for no particular purpose although she has some agility champions in her lines and her father competes in ANKC herding. Her pedigree doesnt indicate any working lines as far as I can see. She is beautiful yes, but also very smart and sensitive and biddable and a complete pleasure to own. She learns at lightening speed, so is not really a barbie, except for her looks.

 

I am also about to move to a property and run sheep. So from all I have learnt and been converted by this board I have my first working collie from solid working lines arriving in the near future. This dog will be my sheep dog but I am going to have some fun to see how my show BC goes. She does have a high prey drive and is always stalking and trying to gather my friends chickens. But I am under no illusions about her breeding.

 

All my collies in the future will be working bred, but I must say my beautiful adopted conformation/ no purpose bred dog is a wonderful animal. For the majority of people who dont work sheep she is probably a perfect companion, perfect temperament, she has absolutely no vices at all.

 

I am quite looking forward to discovering first hand when I move to my sheep property the real differences which I am sure will come to light.

 

Untill my working sheep dog is old enough I am going to have to enlist the help of my conformation collie and a very steady workman like ACD whose only experience is the ability to very nicely bring a friends horses in to her yards. And take lots of lessons!

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Melanie, you won't find a dog on the points list if the handler is not a USBCHA member. It doesn't mean that they aren't running in Open.

 

Yeah, I know -- I was just looking for positive evidence of running in Open and took the quick and dirty first route. I also know that technically being an Open handler doesn't necessarily mean much. I mean, technically I am an Open handler, but Fly and I have never had an Open score. :rolleyes:

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I think SS Cressa just showed how all those rumors about conformation bred dogs running competitively in USBCHA open get started. Someone makes a claim that is unsubstantiated and it gets repeated (and sometimes embellished). Maybe Jack really is an awesome dog. I'd love to see his pedigree. He sure doesn't look like a typical AU/NZ show-bred dog.

 

J.

 

Seeing that I was able to fine 1 possible 2 without doing much research too me does mean they are out there and can be produce... *spooky thought I reread what was posted and thanks for clearing it up. The email I had gotten from the breeder had said he was in open but I can't fine the email and I only have what is being told/seen so far.

 

My point was more to the thought of: You(relativly speaking) are talking about wanting a breed split. How would you go about to define the breed split? Is it just AKC dogs? Dogs that look like show dogs? Who in their pedigree? -although I thought border collie are suppose to be on weither they can work or not? Not who's who in pedigree? Who would be the judge as to which dogs are useful and not? Would you deregister all border collies and make them take a herding test to prove weither or not they can be called border collie? (maybe I am just tired but that would be fun- and I am not talking about ABCA ROM) What about the dogs being work exclusively on the farm and don't trial? Are they still border collie or should they just be called farm collie or farm borders? When do dogs become sport collie or sport borders? Is it who they breed to? What they do? Who their parents? When do they become show border or show collies? When they get their CH? Does their CH take away from their herding instinct?

 

ETA: Is the only way to prove a dogs usefulness is to trial it? I thought it was how helpful the dog was to the farmer not how well they did at a show.

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Seeing that I was able to fine 1 possible 2 without doing much research too me does mean they are out there and can be produce... *spooky thought

 

SS CRESSA YOU DIDN'T FIND ONE OR TWO. THE DOGS YOU GAVE AS EXAMPLES ARE NOT RUNNING IN OPEN. THEY'RE RUNNING IN NOVICE, THE LOWEST LEVEL CLASS. OKAY?

 

How much experience do you have working stock?

 

ETA: Only one is even running in novice. And there is no USBCHA novice. USBCHA doesn't even recognize novice classes - only Open and Nursery.

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Seeing that I was able to fine 1 possible 2 without doing much research too me does mean they are out there and can be produce... *spooky thought

So, Elijah is your dog Troy's sire, and you stated that he was running in Open, when he was really just competing (not too successfully) in Novice. What's "spooky" is that you are stating something on the internet as if it were fact, and it isn't.

 

As for Jack, who is not going to Gordon Watt because of possibly health-related reasons, Gordon Watt may have liked him very much but he never had the opportunity to work with this dog outside of a clinic. So, what sort of "proof" is that? Not much. A dog may show potential (as Jack appeared to have done *to suit Gordon Watt*) but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and isn't in evidence until a dog is actually trained to Open, and consistent and successful in Open and/or trained and proven capable of doing challenging farm work. By the way, he isn't going to UK but the website neglects to point that out, or the reason(s) why. Not much truth in advertising there, is there? He has his JHD, which is a pretty laughable "title" that indicates nothing much. It is not even comparable to a Novice class.

 

If you were a lawyer, your "evidence" would be suspect and your case thrown out of court.

 

There are some good AKC-bred dogs, and I don't just mean ABCA/ISDS dogs that have been dual-registered with a kennel club, or dogs only a generation away from working-bred. But they are few and far between compared to the consistency of good working ability that is produced by good, responsible breeding decisions based on working ability, not other factors.

 

PS - And, no, trialing is not the only way to prove a dog. Ideally, a really good dog should be able to be useful on the farm and be successful on the trial field. While work in both places is related, it also is inherently differing. By the way, a USBCHA/ISDS-style trial is not a "show". I am not surprised that someone who registers her dogs AKC and participates in AKC does not realize that.

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Seeing that I was able to fine 1 possible 2 without doing much research too me does mean they are out there and can be produce... *spooky thought

But you *didn't* find one, possibly two. You found one dog who is running in novice (which isn't much different than an AKC course), which I already pointed out is *nowhere near* running in open. The second dog hasn't done anything more than get a JHD title. That's not *even remotely near* anything like running in USBCHA open. So in fact you have proved only that you couldn't name a strictly conformation-bred dog that is running competitively in USBCHA open. You named two dogs, neither of whom has come close to running anything remotely like open.

 

ETA: It seems others have already pointed out your mistake.

 

J.

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ok ok :rolleyes: I rest "my none existence case" till I fine some hard fact (which I thought I had *is there a rock on this board?)! I still like my fantasy world!

 

As far as my experience with stock(cattle, sheep,ducks)... Their icky, nasty, disgusting beast that aren't the most intelligent things.(maybe its best if I stay away from them) So between going to MT to visit my brothers and his friend cattle farm/ranch (we had to help corral them to get sprayed and no dogs was used to help), 2x on sheep, and my friends "pet" ducks not much. Will I ever live on a farm? I hope NOT! Me doing any herding trial? Not likely unless its in a clear sterile indoor enviroment. Also my allergies and asthma act up when I am near them. The smell really irrate my asthma and I am highly allergic to feathers and dust. (the nationals will be held in a horse barn I was ADVISED to wear a face mask so I can breath or I will end up in the hospital)

 

I would like my dogs introduce to livestock but I don't think I will ever be that serious with it (if you couldn't tell). I just want my dogs to have brains and come from dogs that have been on livestock with success.

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As far as my experience with stock(cattle, sheep,ducks)... Their icky, nasty, disgusting beast that aren't the most intelligent things.

 

Wow. I'd say your experience is really lacking.

 

So if they aren't that intelligent, why does it take a a breed with arguably the highest intelligence to work them?

 

 

Just clarifying - I don't think you have to like sheep or work them to be a good BC owner, but I think the quoted statement is highly is pretty far from the actual truth and shows a huge misconception of livestock.

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